39 replies to this topic

[Oakman]

Mind, at RAADfest has just posted a label pic of this purported soon-to-be-released NAD+ booster, Nuchido Time here. I was interested yesterday when I saw a mention of it, but no specifics, and was put off by the fact their website refused to offer ingredients except saying it has a bit (3 mgs) of caffeine in it. Now Mind has spilled the beans, so to speak, and it appears to be simply some common herbs and a bit of Niacin. 

 

Yet they spec "out of this world' NAD+ boosting properties, surpassing NMN, NR, and NAD+ by a lot. See their site 

 

What are we to make of this. Breakthrough? Scam? Overpriced 'nothingburger'?

 

Thoughts?

Edited by Oakman, 05 October 2019 - 05:25 PM.

[sthira]

Business as usual, evidently.

[MikeDC]

They obviously use some herbs as NAD+ consuming inhibitors to increase NAD+.
The reason to increase NAD+ level is to increase NAD+ consumption. What good does it do if the supplement blocks NAD+ consumption?
CD38 is not a useless molecule. It is important for both immunity and longevity.

[Oakman]

They obviously use some herbs as NAD+ consuming inhibitors to increase NAD+.
The reason to increase NAD+ level is to increase NAD+ consumption. What good does it do if the supplement blocks NAD+ consumption?
CD38 is not a useless molecule. It is important for both immunity and longevity.

 

Everything you say may be true, except ..what if the product combo is in the same vein as 78c* used in this study summarized below? Sure sounds compleling to apply some CD38 inhibition. CD38 may not be 'bad', but that doesn't mean it can't become poorly regulated. These drugs allow us to 'improve' aging and CD38 dysregulation.

 

One day NAD+ regulation will be old hat, but right now we're still learning, and I'd say the future surely holds surprises.

 

Summary

Aging is characterized by the development of metabolic dysfunction and frailty. Recent studies show that a reduction in nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD+) is a key factor for the development of age-associated metabolic decline. We recently demonstrated that the NADase CD38 has a central role in age-related NAD+ decline. Here we show that a highly potent and specific thiazoloquin(az)olin(on)e CD38 inhibitor, 78c, reverses age-related NAD+ decline and improves several physiological and metabolic parameters of aging, including glucose tolerance, muscle function, exercise capacity, and cardiac function in mouse models of natural and accelerated aging. The physiological effects of 78c depend on tissue NAD+ levels and were reversed by inhibition of NAD+ synthesis. 78c increased NAD+ levels, resulting in activation of pro-longevity and health span-related factors, including sirtuins, AMPK, and PARPs. Furthermore, in animals treated with 78c we observed inhibition of pathways that negatively affect health span, such as mTOR-S6K and ERK, and attenuation of telomere-associated DNA damage, a marker of cellular aging. Together, our results detail a novel pharmacological strategy for prevention and/or reversal of age-related NAD+ decline and subsequent metabolic dysfunction.

 

* Thiazoloquin(az)olin(on)e 78c

Edited by Oakman, 05 October 2019 - 06:48 PM.

[MikeDC]

Obviously there are quite many good benefits of inhibiting CD38. This is all due to increased NAD+. CD38 expression can be tissue specific. We will need long term clinical trials to assess the side effects.

[orion22]

any trial on nad+ booster combined  lithium? 

[Mind]

I have taken a 2/3 dose over the last 2 days. No negative side effects in my case. As to effectiveness, due to the fact that I drink coffee, feeling some sort-of wellness or energy boost is going to be difficult to discern. Yesterday I did scale a nearly 12,000 foot mountain after taking the Nuchido product (and not eating anything), not sure if that is evidence of efficacy, at least it didn't hinder me.

[Oakman]

I have taken a 2/3 dose over the last 2 days. No negative side effects in my case. As to effectiveness, due to the fact that I drink coffee, feeling some sort-of wellness or energy boost is going to be difficult to discern. Yesterday I did scale a nearly 12,000 foot mountain after taking the Nuchido product (and not eating anything), not sure if that is evidence of efficacy, at least it didn't hinder me.

 

Pics or did it really happen   That sounds like a fairly amazing endorsement, unless, or course, climbing 12,000 ft mountains is a normal routine for you?!!

Edited by Oakman, 07 October 2019 - 12:12 PM.

[orion22]

price not listed on website do you know it

[Forever21]

55

[midas]

I have taken a 2/3 dose over the last 2 days. No negative side effects in my case. As to effectiveness, due to the fact that I drink coffee, feeling some sort-of wellness or energy boost is going to be difficult to discern. Yesterday I did scale a nearly 12,000 foot mountain after taking the Nuchido product (and not eating anything), not sure if that is evidence of efficacy, at least it didn't hinder me.

 

I find this a strange post as it was only released on the 7th of October, the same day you made this post???

[joesixpack]

I have taken a 2/3 dose over the last 2 days. No negative side effects in my case. As to effectiveness, due to the fact that I drink coffee, feeling some sort-of wellness or energy boost is going to be difficult to discern. Yesterday I did scale a nearly 12,000 foot mountain after taking the Nuchido product (and not eating anything), not sure if that is evidence of efficacy, at least it didn't hinder me.

 

Mt. Charleston? What was the weather like on top?

I find this a strange post as it was only released on the 7th of October, the same day you made this post???

 

I believe he bought it a couple of days ago at Raadfest. He posted pictures of the label a couple of days ago in another forum.

[midas]

 

 

I believe he bought it a couple of days ago at Raadfest. He posted pictures of the label a couple of days ago in another forum.

 

Ah, I see, that makes sense now. Thanks for that.

 

I just ordered some last night, so we'll see.

Edited by midas, 09 October 2019 - 03:39 PM.

[VP.]

Maybe it's based on this study released last week. Research done by Nestle. Greater than 10X over NR:

 

A Reduced Form of Nicotinamide Riboside Defines a New Path for NAD+ Biosynthesis and Acts as an Orally Bioavailable NAD+ Precursor

 

Objective

A decay in intracellular NAD+ levels is one of the hallmarks of physiological decline in normal tissue functions. Accordingly, dietary supplementation with NAD+ precursors can prevent, alleviate, or even reverse multiple metabolic complications and age-related disorders in diverse model organisms. Within the constellation of NAD+ precursors, nicotinamide riboside (NR) has gained attention due to its potent NAD+ biosynthetic effects in vivo while lacking adverse clinical effects. Nevertheless, NR is not stable in circulation, and its utilization is rate-limited by the expression of nicotinamide riboside kinases (NRKs). Therefore, there is a strong interest in identifying new effective NAD+ precursors that can overcome these limitations.

Methods

Through a combination of metabolomics and pharmacological approaches, we describe how NRH, the reduced form of NR, serves as a potent NAD+ precursor in mammalian cells and mice.

Results

NRH acts as a more potent and faster NAD+ precursor than NR in mammalian cells and tissues. Despite the minor structural difference, we found that NRH uses different steps and enzymes to synthesize NAD+, thus revealing a new NRK1-independent pathway for NAD+ synthesis. Finally, we provide evidence that NRH is orally bioavailable in mice and prevents cisplatin-induced acute kidney injury.

Conclusions

Our data demonstrate a new pathway for NAD+ synthesis and classify NRH as a promising new therapeutic strategy to enhance NAD+ levels.

https://reader.elsev...D5C6EE153A4D531

NRH is a reduced form of NR (Figure 1A) whose chemical synthesis was recently described [30]. When the AML12 hepatocytes were treated with NRH, the ability of NRH to increase intracellular NAD+ was vastly superior to that of NR. The dose-response experiments revealed that NRH could significantly increase NAD+ levels at a concentration of 10 μM (Figure 1B). Even at such a relatively low dose, NRH

 

 

 

10 achieved similar increases in intracellular NAD+ levels to those reached with NR at 50-fold higher concentrations (Figure 1B). NRH achieved maximal effects on NAD+synthesis at approximately 0.5 mM, increasing the intracellular NAD+ levels by more than 10-fold (Figure 1B). The NRH actions were also extremely fast, as significant increases in NAD+ levels were observed within 5 min after NRH treatment (Figure 1C). The peak levels of NAD+ were achieved between 45 min and 1 h after treatment (Figure 1C), which also occurred with N

 

 

Earlier paper agrees: http://www.jbc.org/c...005772.full.pdf

 

 

Edited by VP., 09 October 2019 - 07:11 PM.

[VP.]

NRH: 

 

In summary, these findings reveal a powerful naturally occurring pharmacologic agent that can raise NAD+ levels in mammalian cells and tissues, providing an exceptional new tool to investigate how changes in NAD+ metabolism can alter cellular physiology.

Conflict of interest: The authors Anthony A Sauve, Yue Yang and Farheen Sultana Mohammed have filed a patent on aspects of this work in conjunction with Cornell University. Anthony A Sauve has intellectual property related to NR and derivatives of NR. Chromadex Inc of Irvine California has a license on intellectual property related to production and uses of NR. Anthony A Sauve is a consultant and a cofounder of Metro MidAtlantic Biotech LLC and Metro International Biotech LLC.

 

http://www.jbc.org/c...005772.full.pdf

Edited by VP., 09 October 2019 - 07:20 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Nestle seems to be moving into this field in a big way.  That research is very much in the same vein as their partnership with Amazentis to produce a food product containing Urolithin A.

 

 

 

[Mind]

Pics or did it really happen   That sounds like a fairly amazing endorsement, unless, or course, climbing 12,000 ft mountains is a normal routine for you?!!

 

Not routine. In fact, I have not done much cardio at all for the last 3 months, just a lot of heavy lifting in my back yard and the normal 3 mile bike to work. So I was surprised at my accomplishment. I haven't climbed a mountain in about 20 years. I had coffee with cream, the Nuchido supplement and a couple pieces of 90% dark chocolate, then I hiked around for almost 8 hours. Maybe there is something to it (Nuchido), but not sure. I am in good shape anyway.

[Mind]

price not listed on website do you know it

 

The conference price was $55 for a one month supply, which is 180 pills. They suggest 3 pills twice a day, so that would end up being 500 mg niacin per day or 3,000% RDA. Seems like a lot. In the past, I have noticed niacin giving me energy, kind-of like a nervous energy. I can't take it before bed. I have taken the 3 pill dose over the last couple of mornings. No negative side effects. Maybe a little energy boost, but that is just subjective at this point.

I find this a strange post as it was only released on the 7th of October, the same day you made this post???

 

I bought it on Friday (4th) and then first took it on Saturday (5th) and Sunday (6th).

Edited by Mind, 16 February 2020 - 07:13 PM.

[Mind]

Mt. Charleston? What was the weather like on top?

 

I believe he bought it a couple of days ago at Raadfest. He posted pictures of the label a couple of days ago in another forum.

 

I got to the top of Lee Peak and then hiked around the ridge tops. I did not have time to climb Mount Charleston. The weather was perfect. Hardly any wind, about 65 degrees in the sun, and 50 in the shade.

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[aribadabar]

 

What are we to make of this. Breakthrough? Scam? Overpriced 'nothingburger'?

 

Looking at the ingredients and the cost - my vote is last one.

Once can achieve this mix at fraction of the asking price by buying its constituents separately..

[Mind]

I have been taking the product for 4 weeks now, not quite daily, but about 4 or 5 times per week. I take 3 pills in the morning which is half the recommended dose for an entire day. I skip the 3 pills in the afternoon for fear it will affect my sleep at night.

 

I haven't done any objective tests for changes in my metabolism or biomarkers. Subjectively (always view with skepticism), I would say I get a small boost in baseline physical energy from the product. It seems I can do a little more physical work with more ease in a typical day when I take the supplement in the morning.

[Oakman]

I've compounded a supplement roughly based on Nuchido's Time, their NCD201 formula used in their original studies, and ABN's NAD+ AMPK Activator, with a 14 day supply.  I've used it for 3 days, and will report any subjective feelings when the trial completes. The mix is a ~3 grams, 5 cap protocol spaced out during the day.

[Nate-2004]

I've compounded a supplement roughly based on Nuchido's Time, their NCD201 formula used in their original studies, and ABN's NAD+ AMPK Activator, with a 14 day supply.  I've used it for 3 days, and will report any subjective feelings when the trial completes. The mix is a ~3 grams, 5 cap protocol spaced out during the day.

 

I basically did the same thing, buying all their ingredients separately with some additional bioenhancers. I posted about it in another thread. Today was my first take of it. I don't plan on taking it continuously, just cycling it on and off.

[Tony2019]

Hi all.

 

I'm thinking about gambling on these capsules, as I have not taken any of this type of supplement before.

 

IF they work, it could drastically cut my costs because I could take half of the dosage. After all, do we really need a 300% (or whatever the claim is)  increase in NAD? Is more necessarily better?

 

My other option was to try and put together the ingredients myself. I see that two people above me are doing so.

 

Any updates on the effects of the pills? Anyone else bought them?

 

Thanks!

[aribadabar]

I've compounded a supplement roughly based on Nuchido's Time, their NCD201 formula used in their original studies, and ABN's NAD+ AMPK Activator, with a 14 day supply.  I've used it for 3 days, and will report any subjective feelings when the trial completes. The mix is a ~3 grams, 5 cap protocol spaced out during the day.

 

 

How are things looking at the 14-day mark?

[Oakman]

How are things looking at the 14-day mark?

 

As I would hope, well enough. I don't feel different, and I don't feel any ill effects. It would reasonably take longer than 2 weeks to accrue any significant improvements. I might wait a bit before compounding more, and see what happens, if anything. I've been taking NR & NMN anyway, and Vit C, R, rutin, quercetin, apigenin all along, so this is not an unexpected result.

 

I didn't use the full dose a couple days, so tomorrow I'll be finished what I made. As I mentioned, I used a pseudo-combo of Nuchido's Time, their original NCD201 formula, and ABN's NAD+ AMPK Activator. What I compounded was a rough mix of many of these based on what I had on hand and/or could procure easily. Here's what they consisted of:

 

Nuchido Time

Ascorbic Acid  10mg

Nicotinamide  250mg

Alpha Lipoic Acid  300mg

Zinc  5mg

Proprietary blend 1100mg; green tea extract, parsley leaf powder, rutin extract, black pepper fruit extract (exact amts unknown)

 

NC201

NR  1000mg

Quercetin  1125mg

Resveratrol  400mg

Alpha Lipoic Acid  600mg

Apigenin  600mg

 

ABN's AMPK Activator - Boost endogenous NAD+

Fistein  165mg

EGCG  375mg

Pterostilbene  40mg

Astragaloside  40mg

Ellagic Acid  30mg

 

Here's what I compounded, x5  ~600mg/capsules, x2 AM, x2 Noon, x1 Evening, all with food.

 

Edited by Oakman, 15 November 2019 - 03:53 PM.

[aribadabar]

Thank you for the prompt and detailed response.

 

Are you doing any blood tests to compare its effects on biomarkers or just go by sensation/overall feeling?

[Oakman]

Thank you for the prompt and detailed response.

 

Are you doing any blood tests to compare its effects on biomarkers or just go by sensation/overall feeling?

 

I use exercise performance (HR, speed recorded in Strava during endurance cycling), daily HRV measurement, BP, and body sense. I probably should do some blood work though, just have not.

[Oakman]

Considering my post above... here is what I log to stay 'in tune' with mind and body. They reflect to me the result of everything I do and take. Now they (for the time being), reflect this new combo. I also record subjective body sense, aura, and sleep measurements. In an N=1 experiment, this is doable, and practical on a day-to-day basis. I look for positive/negative changes over time in these parameters

 

Recorded daily, today's stats::

 

HRV 7 day average  72.6

Resting HR 7 day average:  50.5 bpm:  

 

Record each ride (~every 2-3 days). Today:

 

Cycled:  31.13 miles

Average speed: 14.9 mph

Average HR:: 129 bpm

Max HR: 178 bpm

Ave power: 88 watts

YTD total: 3071 miles

 

also

BP 5 min after finish: 105/66  105 bpm

BP 30 min after finish: 99/59  97 bpm

 

[VP.]

Thanks Oakman, may I ask how old you are? I recommend you measure balance also. I had a dramatic increase after taking D&Q and balance is a pretty good proxy for aging.