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Coronavirus information with context

coronavirus sars bird flu swine flu west nile virus covid19 covid-19

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#811 Mind

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Posted 23 August 2020 - 10:02 AM

More "excess deaths" that were not really excess deaths: https://www.telegrap...c-investigation Some double-counting of COVID patients and deaths in the UK during the time when all of the "excess deaths" were occurring.

 

The record-keeping of COVID deaths in the U.S. has been horrific. People who died in motorcycle accidents and gun shot wounds have been listed as COVID deaths. A lot of frail elderly who clearly died of other diseases are routinely counted as COVID deaths. I am pretty sure that it has been posted here before that there is a large financial incentive for hospitals to list everyone as a COVID patient or COVID death. This has led to over-reporting of COVID deaths (in the U.S.), IMO.


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#812 Mind

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Posted 23 August 2020 - 10:25 AM

The idea that lockdowns have generally caused more deaths than COVID or that excess deaths are not mostly COVID-caused is unlikely to be true. For instance, there were excess deaths in Sweden which had no lockdown but none in Norway and Finland which did have lockdowns.

 

I agree that this particular respiratory virus is more deadly than the "regular flu", but not by as much as so many people have claimed, and for reasons that do not justify the complete disruption of normal economic and social activity. 60,000 to 80,000 people died of the flu in the US back in 2017-2018, and life went on as normal.

 

In Sweden there were excess deaths during the early part of this year, but now the number of deaths per week are tracking BELOW the average of the last 5 years. I suspect this will continue through the end of the year. As I detailed in this other thread, we do a great job keeping a lot of frail people alive. Many people who were statistically going to die of other diseases earlier this year (in Sweden and elsewhere), died a few weeks earlier because they caught this particular coronavirus. Numbers are worse, relatively speaking, in the U.S. than in Sweden, IMO, because the U.S. has the highest percentage of obese people in the world.

 

Take out the percentage of people that died because of the disruption of normal medical care and those that have died due to isolation, fear, loneliness, substance abuse, and suicide, and this pandemic looks like just a bad flu season.


Edited by Mind, 23 August 2020 - 10:28 AM.

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#813 Florin

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Posted 23 August 2020 - 06:58 PM

You seem to have forgotten what excess deaths are. They're simply more-than-the-usual-amount of deaths that have occured during a given period of time regardless of the alleged causes of those deaths. That makes the quality of record-keeping not that important.

 

The CDC's flu stats are probably not that accurate. I claimed 50k and you're claiming 60-80k, but excess deaths were supposedly only 28k for the 2017-2018 flu season. That makes the 175k to 236k excess deaths for the covid pandemic 6 to 8 times worse than the worst flu season and those excess deaths are still increasing.

 

Sweden's number of excess deaths aren't tracking below average; if anything, they're slightly higher than average.

 

And as I've pointed out, the comparison between Sweden and it's next door neighbors indicates that excess deaths are mostly caused by Covid, not by the lockdowns as you often claim.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/...cess_deaths.htm

https://www.denverpo...flu-comparison/

https://www.euromomo...graphs-and-maps


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#814 Florin

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Posted 04 September 2020 - 06:49 PM

Who's GDP declined the least in the second quarter of 2020? Taiwan's and SK's, of course. Surprisingly, Finland and Norway didn't decrease by much either. Sweden did almost as badly as the US. Another surprise is that Japan didn't do that well either. Several Western European countries like Spain, Italy, France, and the UK were among the worst of the bunch.

 

https://ourworldinda...ESP~NLD~JPN~PRT



#815 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 04 September 2020 - 07:09 PM

And Japan's GDP declined slightly more than the US's.

 

 


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#816 Florin

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Posted 04 September 2020 - 10:41 PM

Japan's GDP is garbage even in the best of times compared to the US', and it also seems that Japan was a little naughty and didn't trust in the Power of the Mask enough to avoid a voluntary semi-lockdown. Sweden seems to have been just as naughty but without the benefit of avoiding mass death. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

 

https://www.google.c...dl=en&ind=false
https://ourworldinda...30&country=~JPN
https://ourworldinda...30&country=~SWE


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#817 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 05 September 2020 - 12:40 AM

And it is 10% more garbage since covid.

 

Look, I shouldn't have to be the one to point out that you're skipping over data that doesn't agree with your hypothesis.  Socrates taught to acknowledge any weakness in your argument, not ignore it.  Don't cherry pick the data.

 

Just because Japan's economy contracted more than the US's doesn't mean your hypothesis is wrong.  It does mean you are being selective with what data you're choosing to highlight.

 

 


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#818 Florin

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Posted 05 September 2020 - 02:04 AM

Yeah, I suspected someone would nitpick about the slightly more negative GDP of Japan, but I don't see that as a major weakness with my argument as I've already explained. That's partly why I didn't mentioned it, and I also wanted to see how the nitpicking went. And there are even more ways to nitpick. But did you really have to drag Socrates and cherries into this though? Why not, you know, present a better nitpick?


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#819 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 05 September 2020 - 02:58 AM

If you're trying to advocate for a position and you see a weakness that someone with an opposing position might exploit, you're far better to address it up front rather than ignore it till they bring it up. It also happens to be a far more honest way to have a discussion as opposed to trying to sweep an inconvenient fact under the carpet.

 

I've just noticed this tendency of yours to ignore things that don't support your position.  You don't talk about Germany because they don't much wear masks.  You didn't mention Japan because they wear masks and yet their economy has suffered more than the US.  Those sorts of things.

 

Just say up front "Japan of course bucks this trend, but here's why that isn't material to my argument".  Something like that.

 

 

 


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#820 Florin

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Posted 05 September 2020 - 05:02 AM

Do you think it would be much fun to show all of your cards all of the time? And who is going to think of all of the millions of possible ways to nitpick apart an argument, anyway?

 

My thesis is that if everyone wears masks, you don't have to do lockdowns and your economy won't suffer as much. That's why I initially found it surprising that Japan's GDP dropped so much. Since there was a high rate of masking, any voluntary lockdown should have been minimal like it was in SK and Taiwan. But unfortunately, that doesn't seem to have been the case with Japan. I didn't mention Germany, because there was nothing surprising about it; it's just wedged in between the middling performers and the bottom of the barrel. My intent was to highlight the stuff I thought was the most interesting, not do a country-by-country analysis.


Edited by Florin, 05 September 2020 - 05:09 AM.

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#821 Florin

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Posted 05 September 2020 - 07:26 PM

HK's GDP decreased by 9% in Q2, but it was (and continues to be) also a bit naughty like Japan.

 

https://www.cnbc.com...ic-updates.html
https://ourworldinda...30&country=~HKG


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#822 Mind

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Posted 11 September 2020 - 01:13 PM

Yet another University study that strongly suggests that this particular virus was circulating long before the "hysterical period" of February-March 2020. Severe respiratory disease was spreading in California in December 2019.

 

Several studies such as this have been posted in this thread already. Covid Symptoms were spiking in Hubei province in September of 2019. Patient zero in many European countries was found to be in late 2019 or January 2020. Spanish fecal study found this coronavirus prevalent in the waste stream 41 days before the "outbreak" and even found one sample containing the virus as far back as March of 2019.

 

I am not 100% convinced, but to me, it definitely looks like big contributing factors to excess deaths in early 2020  the hysteria and lockdown policy. Without these, it would have just been another "bad flu season".


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#823 pamojja

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Posted 11 September 2020 - 01:53 PM

Ivor Cummins delivers a vitally important update on COVID-19. This is a must watch update on COVID death statistics, from a historical and global perspective, putting it in proper context: Ivor implores us to "Get educated guys and gals - or keep your head in the sand while your errant leaders destroy society around you.

 


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#824 Florin

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Posted 11 September 2020 - 06:41 PM

I am not 100% convinced, but to me, it definitely looks like big contributing factors to excess deaths in early 2020  the hysteria and lockdown policy. Without these, it would have just been another "bad flu season".

 

This seems highly unlikely. Sweden which didn't officially lockdown had a lot of excess deaths, while Finland and Norway which did lockdown didn't.


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#825 Mind

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 11:30 AM

Another data point for a much earlier development and spread of this virus. Epoch Times claims to have uncovered documents from China indicating severe pneumonia and COVID-like symptoms in many patients, months prior to December 2019. https://www.theepoch...ts_3537965.html

 

This bolsters the Harvard study (posted earlier) indicating a possible outbreak in China back in September of 2019.


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#826 Mind

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 11:43 AM

Mercola's latest take on the pandemic, now that it is known that this disease is near or less deadly than the conventional flu for people under 60. https://www.lewrockw...nst-sars-cov-2/


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#827 Florin

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 07:51 PM

Mercola's latest take on the pandemic, now that it is known that this disease is near or less deadly than the conventional flu for people under 60. https://www.lewrockw...nst-sars-cov-2/


Mercola's take from the same article:
 

Overall, the data8,9 also show that the overall all-cause mortality has remained steady this year and doesn’t veer from the norm. In other words, COVID-19 has not killed off more of the population than would have died in any given year anyway.


This is a lie, of course, given the large amount of excess deaths. And if there were no excess deaths as he claims, there could be no COVID-19 deaths in any age group.
 
Why are you even bothering to post this garbage?
 
https://www.cdc.gov/...cess_deaths.htm
https://www.euromomo...graphs-and-maps


Edited by Florin, 17 October 2020 - 07:52 PM.

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#828 Hip

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Posted 18 October 2020 - 12:18 AM

Mercola's latest take on the pandemic, now that it is known that this disease is near or less deadly than the conventional flu for people under 60. https://www.lewrockw...nst-sars-cov-2/

 

Dr Mercola is a semi-quack: some of his articles are reasonable, but others are just junk science.


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#829 Mind

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 07:06 PM

Mercola's take from the same article:
 


This is a lie, of course, given the large amount of excess deaths. And if there were no excess deaths as he claims, there could be no COVID-19 deaths in any age group.
 
Why are you even bothering to post this garbage?
 
https://www.cdc.gov/...cess_deaths.htm
https://www.euromomo...graphs-and-maps

 

Mercola is right on all-cause mortality this year in the U.S. as far as I can tell. Anyone can add it up themselves. According the CDC here, all cause mortality is LESS in 2020 than in 2019, and pretty much in line with the last 4 years.


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#830 Florin

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 08:21 PM

Mercola is right on all-cause mortality this year in the U.S. as far as I can tell. Anyone can add it up themselves. According the CDC here, all cause mortality is LESS in 2020 than in 2019, and pretty much in line with the last 4 years.

 

Completely wrong.

 

2018 week 38 – 2019 week 38 = 2887754 deaths (unweighted)
2019 week 39 – 2020 week 39 = 3166740 deaths (unweighted)

 

278986 MORE deaths for 2019 week 39 – 2020 week 39 compared to 2018 week 38 – 2019 week 38

 

I'm not going to waste more of my time comparing other years.

 

Go back to elementary school.

 

https://data.cdc.gov...at=true target=


Edited by Florin, 19 October 2020 - 08:28 PM.

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#831 Mind

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 09:02 PM

Completely wrong.

 

2018 week 38 – 2019 week 38 = 2887754 deaths (unweighted)
2019 week 39 – 2020 week 39 = 3166740 deaths (unweighted)

 

278986 MORE deaths for 2019 week 39 – 2020 week 39 compared to 2018 week 38 – 2019 week 38

 

I'm not going to waste more of my time comparing other years.

 

Go back to elementary school.

 

https://data.cdc.gov...at=true target=

 

I was only counting 2019 through 1st week of October vs. 2020 through the first week of October. And you are correct, I must have missed a month. All cause for this year is 2427881. All cause last your through week 40 is 2181412, which is approximately 24,000 less, about 1% less.

 

Still, if the COVID death toll is truly 207,000, shouldn't the number of all cause deaths this year be closer to 200,000 more than last year (10% more). Seems strange that it would only be 24,000.


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#832 Florin

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 10:45 PM

I was only counting 2019 through 1st week of October vs. 2020 through the first week of October. And you are correct, I must have missed a month. All cause for this year is 2427881. All cause last your through week 40 is 2181412, which is approximately 24,000 less, about 1% less.

 

Still, if the COVID death toll is truly 207,000, shouldn't the number of all cause deaths this year be closer to 200,000 more than last year (10% more). Seems strange that it would only be 24,000.

 

You're making a bunch of mistakes.

 

2019 deaths (unweighted, week 1 to 40) = 2,181,174
2020 deaths (unweighted, week 1 to 40) = 2,427,661
2020 deaths - 2019 deaths = 246,487 more 2020 deaths


Edited by Florin, 19 October 2020 - 10:49 PM.

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#833 albedo

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Posted 20 October 2020 - 12:14 PM

OK this is just an opinion (Oct. 14) of one journalist/activist and a scientists but to me it has been pretty a cold shower on the "winning" and almost semi-god approach touted for the Swedish health authorities:

https://time.com/589...virus-disaster/

(edit: spelling)


Edited by albedo, 20 October 2020 - 12:16 PM.

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#834 Mind

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Posted 20 October 2020 - 05:04 PM

You're making a bunch of mistakes.

 

2019 deaths (unweighted, week 1 to 40) = 2,181,174
2020 deaths (unweighted, week 1 to 40) = 2,427,661
2020 deaths - 2019 deaths = 246,487 more 2020 deaths

 

Yikes, what a bad day I was having.


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#835 Hebbeh

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Posted 21 October 2020 - 02:08 AM

https://www.usatoday...dge/5994363002/

 

The 'shocking' impact of COVID-19: Americans, young and old, have lost 2.5 million years of life, Harvard researcher says

 

A world-class molecular biologist and geneticist, Elledge felt like people were ignoring an important aspect of the COVID-19 pandemic. They kept talking about how the only people dying were old and would have died soon anyway.

 

So Elledge, a scientist to his bones, decided to run some numbers.

 

Elledge calculated life expectancy for more than 200,000 Americans who have died of COVID-19 and made two surprising findings: COVID-19 has cost Americans 2.5 million years of life – about as much as from six months of cancer deaths. And roughly half that loss has come from people who died in middle age, not their waning years. 

 

“It was really pretty shocking,” said Elledge, the Gregor Mendel Professor of Genetics at Harvard Medical School and Brigham and Women’s Hospital, both in Boston. “The younger half of that population are losing just as much life as the old people. And they really need to know it.”

 

Most people don’t understand life expectancy, he said. It doesn’t stay the same from the day you’re born until the day you die.

 

The longer you live, the more likely to you are to keep living. A 70-year-old man might have an eight-year life expectancy, but by the time he turns 80, it might still be eight years, because he’s skated past a lot of the problems that would have killed him earlier.

Younger people don’t die of COVID-19 at the same rate as older people, but they do die. Someone who dies in their 50s, for example, loses two to three decades of life expectancy, he noted.

 

And people who survive the virus may have long-lasting damage, which can affect lifespan, said Elledge, co-winner of the 2015 Lasker Award, commonly known as the American Nobel.

 

“You’re pushing your age forward,” he said. “All the people who make it through, who knows what’s going to happen to them when they get older.”

 

Elledge who normally studies things like how DNA responds to damage, wrote up his ideas using simple calculations and posted them online. He hopes to get them published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal some time soon.

 

He said his findings are in line with calculations done earlier in the pandemic, when deaths were fewer and more of the dead were older.

 

Mostly, he said, he wants to bring attention to the fact that those dying from COVID-19 shouldn’t be written off. Most weren’t on death’s door, he said, and each death causes a ripple effect of grief and loss.  

 

Letting the virus widely infect younger people, as suggested by those who advocate herd immunity through natural infection, would be devastating — for the people directly affected and for the country as a whole, he said. 

 

Rest at link



#836 albedo

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Posted 21 October 2020 - 08:51 AM

Two articles I found interesting: one by Scientific American on some myths which they try to debunk and one quite elaborate from the Financial Times where I found insightful in particular two charts on economy impact and (lacking of) herd immunity:

 

https://www.scientif...?amp;text=Eight

 

https://ig.ft.com/co...us-global-data/

 

Attached File  C19 economics.PNG   42.22KB   0 downloads

Attached File  herd.PNG   83.46KB   0 downloads


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#837 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 21 October 2020 - 02:20 PM

https://www.usatoday...dge/5994363002/

 

The 'shocking' impact of COVID-19: Americans, young and old, have lost 2.5 million years of life, Harvard researcher says

 

A world-class molecular biologist and geneticist, Elledge felt like people were ignoring an important aspect of the COVID-19 pandemic. They kept talking about how the only people dying were old and would have died soon anyway.

 

So Elledge, a scientist to his bones, decided to run some numbers.

 

Elledge calculated life expectancy for more than 200,000 Americans who have died of COVID-19 and made two surprising findings: COVID-19 has cost Americans 2.5 million years of life – about as much as from six months of cancer deaths. And roughly half that loss has come from people who died in middle age, not their waning years. 

 

“It was really pretty shocking,” said Elledge, the Gregor Mendel Professor of Genetics at Harvard Medical School and Brigham and Women’s Hospital, both in Boston. “The younger half of that population are losing just as much life as the old people. And they really need to know it.”

 

Most people don’t understand life expectancy, he said. It doesn’t stay the same from the day you’re born until the day you die.

 

The longer you live, the more likely to you are to keep living. A 70-year-old man might have an eight-year life expectancy, but by the time he turns 80, it might still be eight years, because he’s skated past a lot of the problems that would have killed him earlier.

Younger people don’t die of COVID-19 at the same rate as older people, but they do die. Someone who dies in their 50s, for example, loses two to three decades of life expectancy, he noted.

 

And people who survive the virus may have long-lasting damage, which can affect lifespan, said Elledge, co-winner of the 2015 Lasker Award, commonly known as the American Nobel.

 

“You’re pushing your age forward,” he said. “All the people who make it through, who knows what’s going to happen to them when they get older.”

 

Elledge who normally studies things like how DNA responds to damage, wrote up his ideas using simple calculations and posted them online. He hopes to get them published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal some time soon.

 

He said his findings are in line with calculations done earlier in the pandemic, when deaths were fewer and more of the dead were older.

 

Mostly, he said, he wants to bring attention to the fact that those dying from COVID-19 shouldn’t be written off. Most weren’t on death’s door, he said, and each death causes a ripple effect of grief and loss.  

 

Letting the virus widely infect younger people, as suggested by those who advocate herd immunity through natural infection, would be devastating — for the people directly affected and for the country as a whole, he said. 

 

Rest at link

 

I went and read the actual study (not peer reviewed for what it's worth) and there is a glaring flaw.

 

He takes each death at age X and then using actuarial tables looks at how many years on average a person at that age might be expected to live.

 

Here's the problem - he takes no account of the health status of each individual who has died from covid (I'm sure that he doesn't have the data do do this right - HIPAA laws being what they are and the fact this would be a major effort even if he had the data). 

 

So how does that impact things?

 

Well, let's say that a person dies from covid at 70 years old.  He looks at the actuarial tables and says on average a person that makes it to 70 can expect to live another 10 years and throws that in his calculation.  But our guy that died from covid isn't average - he's a distinct person.  And we know that significant co-morbidities and dying from covid go together.  So, lets say our 70 year old has type 2 diabetes, heart disease, and a BMI of 34.  

 

At this point, the question isn't how long the average 70 year old would live at that age, but rather how long a 70 year old with type 2 diabetes, heart disease, and a BMI of 34 would live.

 

So he's very much calculated a worst case number here.

 

The tell is that if you look at areas with a high number of covid deaths (like the state of NY), roughly half the deaths are in nursing homes.  And the average stay in a nursing home is around 2 years, not 10 (and almost everyone that leaves a nursing home does so via the morgue).  And presumably the people dying didn't arrive in the nursing home on Monday and die on Friday.  So, figure that on average the person that dies from covid has been in the nursing home a year.  So rough guesstimate is that a person dying from covid in a nursing home has lost about a year of life.  And these are a very high percentage of covid deaths.  So losing 10 years just doesn't pass the smell test.

 

Look, covid is a very bad respiratory infection and each death is a tragedy to someone.  But this looks like an intentional effort to magnify what is already a bad situation.


Edited by Daniel Cooper, 21 October 2020 - 02:28 PM.

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#838 Florin

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Posted 21 October 2020 - 10:26 PM

Multi-organ impairment in low-risk individuals with long COVID

https://doi.org/10.1....10.14.20212555
 

Between April and September 2020, 201 individuals (mean age 44 (SD 11.0) years, 70% female, 87% white, 31% healthcare workers) completed assessments following SARS-CoV-2 infection (median 140, IQR 105-160 days after initial symptoms). The prevalence of pre-existing conditions (obesity: 20%, hypertension: 6%; diabetes: 2%; heart disease: 4%) was low, and only 18% of individuals had been hospitalised with COVID-19. Fatigue (98%), muscle aches (88%), breathlessness (87%), and headaches (83%) were the most frequently reported symptoms. Ongoing cardiorespiratory (92%) and gastrointestinal (73%) symptoms were common, and 42% of individuals had ten or more symptoms. There was evidence of mild organ impairment in heart (32%), lungs (33%), kidneys (12%), liver (10%), pancreas (17%), and spleen (6%). Single (66%) and multi-organ (25%) impairment was observed, and was significantly associated with risk of prior COVID-19 hospitalisation (p<0.05).


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#839 Florin

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Posted 21 October 2020 - 11:26 PM

Deaths for the 0-64 year age range

 

2019 deaths (unweighted, week 1 to 40) = 567,105
2020 deaths (unweighted, week 1 to 40) = 632,369
2020 deaths - 2019 deaths = 65,264 more 2020 deaths

 

https://data.cdc.gov...at=true target=


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#840 Florin

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Posted 22 October 2020 - 02:51 AM

Even though Germany's mask compliance at around 60% isn't so great, it's still doing better than most of the rest of Western Europe probably due to the fact it's doing a lot more contact tracing and quarantine and upgrading ventilation. But it's no mystery why cases are already starting to increase: colder weather is forcing more people indoors in higher-risk settings such as bars and restaurants.

 

https://today.yougov...-avoid-covid-19
https://www.vox.com/...ond-wave-update


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