1539 replies to this topic

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Re post #1380

 

You ought to apply for a job as a contortionist Hip, as you demonstrate again and again that you are no neophyte with regard to your ability to  twist things beyond all recognition. 

 

Mind wrote about the IFR, and made statements of fact concerning it. From Mind's mention of IFR for COVID you gyrate to your usual straw-man tactic, and start writing as if Mind's post contains a mention of long COVID and its effects. It does not. His post concerns the IFR for COVID.

 

"So the effects of SARS-CoV-2 are absolutely not restricted to the elderly." 

 

Mind's post does not contain a claim that the effects of COVID are restricted to the elderly. You are manufacturing, out of whole cloth, a claim that Mind did not make, and refuting it in your usual straw-man fashion.

 

Also, those people who have received the jab have also contracted long COVID. And, their protection from long COVID ranges from 21-73% depending on the number of shots.

 

 

[Hip]

One great benefit that has arisen from the long COVID diseases that may appear after SARS-CoV-2 infection is the humbling medical researchers, and making them see the light, in terms of finally realising the connection between infectious pathogens and chronic disease:

 

“This pandemic shone a very, very good light on the idea that there is really an intimate connection between infections and chronic disease. It was really hardwired into our medical training as doctors that most infections, when people get over the hump of the acute phase of the disease, it’s all behind them. I think long COVID has humbled us in many, many ways, but chief among those is the realization — the stark realization — that infections can cause chronic disease.”

 

“Looking at only acute illness from COVID is really only looking at the tip of the iceberg. Beneath that tip of the iceberg lies this hidden toll of disease that we don’t really talk about that much.”

 

Ziyad Al-Aly, chief of research at the VA St. Louis Healthcare System and clinical epidemiologist at Washington University in St. Louis

 

Source: here. 

 

 

So in spite of the millions that died of COVID (and are still dying of COVID today), and in spite of 65 million people whose lives are blighted from developing long COVID, one positive note is that the pandemic has started to make scientists realise that pathogens and chronic disease are intimately related. 

 

With this realisation, we may start to see broad new strategies to develop technologies to protect the human race from all the disease-causing pathogens in common circulation. 

 

In the distant future, once these pathogens are brought under control, our descendants may enjoy a golden era of health and longevity. Unfortunately, that golden era is not for us. 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 25 November 2023 - 12:00 AM.

[Mind]

 
It has been pointed out numerous times that long COVID hits all ages, and often hits perfectly healthy people. So the effects of SARS-CoV-2 are absolutely not restricted to the elderly. I am not sure why you are ignoring long COVID, as I keep mentioning it; an example of the the ostrich effect perhaps? Long COVID is often a devastating condition; you might want to read a bit about it, so that you are better informed about the terrible toll the COVID pandemic has inflicted. 


 

If you exclude the people who died, the IFR rate is actually 0%. So nothing to worry about at all! In fact all pandemics are pretty benign, if you don't count the deaths!

 

 

 

When we go back to the beginning of the pandemic, when there were no protective vaccines, and when SARS-CoV-2 was a more potent virus, death rates for the those in their 50s were 1.3%, and for those in their 40s it was 0.4%. For those in their 60s it was 3.6%. Ref: here. 

 

Sure, once many people have been vaccinated, and we have the more benign omicron variant, death rates go down. But you seem to be forgetting that at the beginning, the death rates were pretty high. 

 

There is another thread about long COVID where it should be discussed. There is still no set clinical definition of long COVID. There is still very little evidence it is a separate disease state. Some papers claiming to support the long COVID theory are riddled with errors.

[Hip]

There is another thread about long COVID where it should be discussed. There is still no set clinical definition of long COVID. There is still very little evidence it is a separate disease state. 

 

That's not true at all. 

 

ME/CFS, which appears to be the main disease found in long COVID, has long had a precise clinical definition and precise diagnostic criteria, such as the Canadian consensus criteria (CCC) for ME/CFS. 

 

About 60% the 65 million patients with persistent symptoms after COVID match the Canadian consensus criteria or similar ME/CFS diagnostic criteria.

 

Then about another 20% meet the diagnostic criteria for autonomic diseases like POTS and NMH. Again, these diseases like POTS are very precisely defined. 

 

A small percentage have mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), which is a problematic condition analogous to allergies. 

 

A small percentage have physical damage to their heart or lungs sustained during the acute COVID infection.

 

 

Long COVID patients are not doing themselves any favours by using the nebulous term "long COVID" to describe their illness, rather than the actual diseases they have. Long COVID is an umbrella term for several diseases, but these diseases are all precisely defined, and well-known to the medical profession. 

 

But of course nobody seems to know them here. 

Edited by Hip, 27 November 2023 - 04:40 PM.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Mind asserts:

 

"There is still no set clinical definition of long COVID. There is still very little evidence it is a separate disease state."

 

So, Hip responds with:

 

"ME/CFS, which appears to be the main disease found in long COVID, has long had a precise clinical definition and precise diagnostic criteria, such as the Canadian consensus criteria (CCC) for ME/CFS. "

 

Hey, Hip, rather than nattering about ME/CFS, why don't you address Mind's claim about the clinical definition (lack thereof) of long COVID? You know, provide a link to an authoritative source that gives a definition.

 

 

(I suspect that the UK will soon run out of its straw supply, at its current rate of consumption, mainly by one entity, I may add.)

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 27 November 2023 - 05:09 PM.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Hip, clearly you aren't a scientist. Nor do you seem to be able to comprehend that science operates on precise definitions. The meanings of words are critical when the words are purported to represent facts.

 

Where is your cited definition, Hip?

[Hip]

Hip, clearly you aren't a scientist. Nor do you seem to be able to comprehend that science operates on precise definitions. The meanings of words are critical when the words are purported to represent facts.

 
If you had ever read any philosophy of science, philosophy of mathematics, or philosophy of logic, you would realise that precise definitions are only the tip of the iceberg in scientific understanding. In the mind of a good scientist, there is always a deeper intuitive understanding beyond words and definitions, represented by the submerged part of the iceberg. 
 
The world is complex and infinite, and can never be fully captured by any linguistic definition. Therefore, while science uses precise statements and definitions based on words, logic or mathematical equations, it has to be understood that those statements never fully pin down the truth of the world, and you need human intuition and creativity as much as definitions. You will understand this better if you read some philosophy of science and logic.

 

Definitions in science are thus always partial and provisional statements, used until a deeper understanding comes along. Newton's laws of motion were an incredible statement, but were eventually demonstrated centuries later as not quite correct, when relativity came along. One day, we may have a better theory that surpasses even relativity. If you cling to scientific statements, and abandon the scientific faculties of intuition and creativity, then you will never advance or fully understand your subject.
 

Case in point is Mind's view that the COVID vaccines are not actually vaccines. Mind pedantically based this view on a definition of a vaccine given by the FDA, and he believes that under this definition, the mRNA vaccines are not vaccines. This may or may not be true, but in any case, the intuitive concept of a vaccine that scientists understand in their mind is much deeper, wider and more creative than any particular provisional definition. The FDA definition of a vaccine may not even be a fully scientific one, but may be in part a legal one.  
 
Mind does not appear to intuitively understand what a vaccine is at a scientific level, so grasps at definitions, because he understands that. 
 
 
Your own posts, Advocatus Diaboli, are also highly pedantic, focused on words and definitions, never focused on deeper intuitive understanding.

 

I would suggest researching how you can expand intuition, because it seems that you are not operating as much as you could be in this area. The most brilliant of scientific minds blend precise language with deep intuition.

 

I am sure you are aware of the 1970s concept of the left cerebral hemisphere being dedicated to language and logic, and the right hemisphere to the mysterious powers of intuition and creativity. A genius I think is a person with both sides of their brain fully functioning. A spiritual person might have their right side functioning, but may be lacking on the left side logic. A pedantic person might have a good left brain, but be lacking on the right hand side. Selegiline is also touted to be a longevity drug, as mice given this drug have 40% longer lifespans. 

 

Dopamine can also be an important neurotransmitter for boosting intuition and creativity. Have you ever tried nootropics like selegiline, an MAO inhibitor which boosts dopamine? You will find if you take a few mg of selegiline before bed, the next your creative intuitive side will blossom. And you will be in a better mood too, since dopamine improves mood.

 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 27 November 2023 - 06:21 PM.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Where is your cited definition, Hip?

[Hip]

With all the constant insults and abuse - fallacies of discussion and right the opposite of anything spiritual - instead of rational discussions, it is too obvious which side of brain is failing yourself.

 

I have been called ignorant and a time waster thousands of times here, by people pressing the "Ill Informed" and "Time Wasting" ratings buttons under my posts. 

 

I suspect you are one of the chief culprits here of dispensing these insults to me. Too cowardly to insult me to my face, so you insult me anonymously. If you look at my user page, you will see that I have been insulted thousands of times, as demonstrated by my red mark count of over 2 thousands insults. 

 

So there are some very rude and insulting people here, but who hide in anonymity, which makes the insult even worse.

 

 

I've repeated asked the moderators to find out who is behind this bombing of my posts with insults, because the chief moderator Mind has the power to do this. But the mods repeatedly refuse to do this, which means they are supporting the insulters. 

 

So if you have been insulting me all these times via the red ratings (not that you would be man enough to admit it), what does that say about your spiritual qualities?  

[Mind]

I have been called ignorant and a time waster thousands of times here, by people pressing the "Ill Informed" and "Time Wasting" ratings buttons under my posts. 

 

I suspect you are one of the chief culprits here of dispensing these insults to me. Too cowardly to insult me to my face, so you insult me anonymously. If you look at my user page, you will see that I have been insulted thousands of times, as demonstrated by my red mark count of over 2 thousands insults. 

 

So there are some very rude and insulting people here, but who hide in anonymity, which makes the insult even worse.

 

 

I've repeated asked the moderators to find out who is behind this bombing of my posts with insults, because the chief moderator Mind has the power to do this. But the mods repeatedly refuse to do this, which means they are supporting the insulters. 

 

So if you have been insulting me all these times via the red ratings (not that you would be man enough to admit it), what does that say about your spiritual qualities?  

 

Your posts are accurately rated, as far as I can tell. You constantly berate people for being conspiracy theorists, call them all kinds of names, rarely respond with references that are on-topic, hijack threads with information that should be posted elsewhere, and much more.

 

This thread is a perfect example: Recently posted was a peer-reviewed study about the extremely low IFR from COVID (less than one tenth of one percent). Instead of berating the authors of the paper and everyone else as idiots, maybe read the papers and point out flaws - if there are some. Maybe there is a legitimate criticism of the data. It looked like a solid paper to me, based upon a large and diverse dataset from many different countries.

 

There is an appropriate thread (not this one) for discussing the nebulous and ill-defined "Long Covid".

Edited by Mind, 27 November 2023 - 07:43 PM.

[Hip]

Your posts are accurately rated, as far as I can tell. You constantly berate people for being conspiracy theorists, call them all kinds of names, rarely respond with references that are on-topic, hijack threads with information that should be posted elsewhere, and much more.

 

No forum should offer the facility of rating posts as "Ill Informed", "Time Wasting" etc, because such things makes people angry or irritated. Common sense should tell you that. 

 

This is problem with the rating system, it is designed to make people irritated. In fact years before the pandemic began, I started a thread on Longecity on the subject of these rude red ratings, saying that they should not be allowed. But unfortunately nobody agreed with me.  

 

Allowing someone to be bombed with red rating means that the moderators here are happy for others to anonymously insult. 

 

I've received over 2600 such insults since the COVID threads started. I doubt if you will find 2600 insults written by me in my posts. So I am being insulted far more often than I insult. 

 

Yet people here do not see this. They insult me constantly, and then have the cheek to say I am the culprit. 

 

The only reason moderators here do not do anything about this situation is because they agree with the views of the people who insult me. So they turn a blind eye to this abuse. 

Edited by Hip, 27 November 2023 - 08:04 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Ok guys, enough back and forth.

 

Completely off topic. Also, do not bring in disputes from other sites into this forum. We have enough disagreements here without importing more.

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 27 November 2023 - 08:53 PM.

[Mind]

PANDA group summarizes the COVID panic, essentially condensing the points laid out in this thread.

 

- The "pandemic" was a pandemic of fear.

- There was plenty of evidence that COVID was spreading around the world many months (at least) before late December of 2019 in China.

- Iatrogenic deaths accounted for a lot of deaths labelled as "COVID", in 2020.

- None of the pandemic measures, including the "vaccines" did anything to stop the spread of COVID anywhere.

[adamh]

The next pandemic is predicted to be this white lung disease that is spreading. It too seems to have originated in china and is easily transmitted. Conveniently comes as election year rolls around so they can mandate mail in ballots to enable cheating. The next 5 years will be interesting with all the economic chaos and disease

[Daniel Cooper]

The next pandemic is predicted to be this white lung disease that is spreading. It too seems to have originated in china and is easily transmitted. Conveniently comes as election year rolls around so they can mandate mail in ballots to enable cheating. The next 5 years will be interesting with all the economic chaos and disease

 

I have to wonder if this white lung pneumonia is the result of a lot of kids globally that were isolated and kept out of school for a year or two having underdeveloped immune systems because they weren't challenged as much as would have normally occurred.

 

Supposedly it is being caused by a mycoplasma bacteria and no one in the West that has seen it seems to be saying that it looks unusual or unique. At least not so far.

 

Locking kids up at home and keeping them significantly isolated from other each other isn't normal and would be expected to have an impact on how their immune system develop.

[Dorian Grey]

My tinfoil hat buzzed a couple of times when I was impressed by the virulence of this humble mycoplasma bacteria.  Almost like gain of function?  

 

Don't know if you could even do this with bacteria, but it does seem to have multi-drug resistance.  

 

What a way to clean up some useless eaters?  Rich folks in the first world will be treated with specialized, Big Guns anti-B's, and the po folk will crash & burn.  A new angle on population cull?  

[Daniel Cooper]

My tinfoil hat buzzed a couple of times when I was impressed by the virulence of this humble mycoplasma bacteria.  Almost like gain of function?  

 

Don't know if you could even do this with bacteria, but it does seem to have multi-drug resistance.  

 

What a way to clean up some useless eaters?  Rich folks in the first world will be treated with specialized, Big Guns anti-B's, and the po folk will crash & burn.  A new angle on population cull?  

 

You can definitely do gain of function on bacteria, but there's a lot less interest in that subject. The expectation is that the "next big pandemic" will 99% of the time be a virus. I'm trying to think of the last widespread deadly pandemic that was bacterial rather than viral and all I can come up with is the Bubonic Plague - Yersinia pestis. It's been a tick since that one was a problem.

 

There have been some small bacterial outbreaks that have killed people - anthrax, Legionella pneumophila, even plague now and then but none of them have ever made the big time.

 

Bacteria are generally easier to contain than a virus even if they have acquired antibiotic immunity. So the vast majority of the gain of function research is focused on viruses. Trying to predict the next breakout virus that kills a bunch of people. Either that or creating it and releasing it on the public. Six of one, half dozen of another as they say.

[adamh]

They say this white lung disease is mostly hitting children with their underdeveloped immune system. That would seem to indicate its not a major problem to the adult population. It seems to have come from china, once again, and over there they say its hitting kids. It does not appear very deadly though some have died. 

 

Its here in usa, biden of course is not stopping flights from china.

 https://www.forbes.c...sh=58413b08191c

 

I doubt its going to be a major game changer but it seems easily transmitted. If it becomes endemic, it could reduce the population slightly by killing some children. China is already seeing a drop in population and now this. They also have dengue fever there and other things. 

 

Lets hope big pharma doesn't come out with an rna vaccine and convinces govt to mandate it. Not again.

[Mind]

Please use this thread to continue to document the COVID situation. Start another thread for other diseases if you think it is warranted.

[Hip]

None of the pandemic measures, including the "vaccines" did anything to stop the spread of COVID anywhere.

 

A blatant piece of disinformation.

 

In the communitarian countries (where libertarians are social pariahs), the populace actually followed the rules set by government, and they had 10-fold less deaths than in the liberal West. 

 

Now of course you make statements like that, as I have done many times, but some people here will never be able to learn and take it on board.  

 

The real criminals of the pandemic that need to be held accountable are the anti-establishment rebels and libertarians that did not do as they were told, due to lack of public spirit. 

Edited by Hip, 11 December 2023 - 06:21 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

A blatant piece of disinformation.

 

In the communitarian countries (where libertarians are social pariahs), the populace actually followed the rules set by government, and they had 10-fold less deaths than in the liberal West. 

 

Now of course you make statements like that, as I have done many times, but some people here will never be able to learn and take it on board.  

 

The real criminals of the pandemic that need to be held accountable are the anti-establishment rebels and libertarians that did not do as they were told, due to lack of public spirit. 

 

The spread of COVID (Mind) and deaths from COVID are two different things.  

 

We were vaxxed to the max here in San Diego, and mask mandates (indoor and outdoor!) were all but continuous. Omicron swept through our city back in January 2022 like a Canadian wildfire.  Don't know about deaths, but we might consider in countries outside the US/UK, some doctors were allowed to treat their patients and medicines made available.  Both IVM & HCQ are over the counter in much of the world, and there have been some interesting charts of differences in mortality rate between countries where treatment was allowed. 

 

My favorite is when Switzerland suddenly banned HCQ when Surgisphere was published and fatality rates suddenly soared.  When Surgisphere was retracted, Switzerland promptly resumed HCQ use and fatality rates dropped like a stone back to where they had been pre-Surgisphere.  

 

 

Attached Files

•  hydroxychloroqine-before-and-after-switzerland.jpg   228.06KB   0 downloads

Edited by Dorian Grey, 11 December 2023 - 04:19 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

More on countries who treat vs those who do not: 

 

Attached Files

•  HCQbyCountry.jpg   35.04KB   0 downloads

[Mind]

A blatant piece of disinformation.

 

In the communitarian countries (where libertarians are social pariahs), the populace actually followed the rules set by government, and they had 10-fold less deaths than in the liberal West. 

 

Now of course you make statements like that, as I have done many times, but some people here will never be able to learn and take it on board.  

 

The real criminals of the pandemic that need to be held accountable are the anti-establishment rebels and libertarians that did not do as they were told, due to lack of public spirit. 

 

I am talking about the spread of COVID. 

 

The data is available for everyone to see. https://www.worldome...fo/coronavirus/

 

Huge waves of COVID cases spread around the world multiple times. Most of this spread in most countries happened AFTER lockdowns, AFTER mask mandates, AFTER the COVID injections. This is not in dispute. Even China gave up on the worthless pandemic measures (in an instant).

 

The only areas that were able to forestall the spread of COVID were smaller island nations that isolated themselves. Eventually, they couldn't maintain the prison-like status of their countries and COVID spread anyway, even though they had taken the COVID injections and were still wearing masks (New Zealand).

 

The fact that every country has given up on the COVID pandemic measures is prima facia evidence that they did not work. The vast majority of the world has been living like normal for about 2 years now. 

[Hip]

I am talking about the spread of COVID. 

 

Yes, but you are still wrong about the measures taken not slowing COVID spread.

 

The purpose of such measures — lockdowns, masks, social distancing, testing, quarantine, etc — was to delay the inevitable spread of COVID around the world. This was about buying time until protective vaccines could be developed and rolled out. You cannot prevent the inevitable spread, but you can slow it down so it becomes more manageable.

 

This slowing down the spread was in order to save lives of the unvaccinated elderly and vulnerable, and also in order to prevent overloading the hospitals with too many COVID cases all at once. 

[joesixpack]

You are wrong. The lockdowns, masking, etc did nothing to slow the spread. This is a known fact. You can deny it, but you will look like a fool doing so. 

 

One thing that might have slowed the spread around the world would have been a one or two month worldwide travel ban, beginning March 1, 2020. But that was not politically correct, so flights in and out of all but a few countries continued. In the US the first cases came from people that traveled to Wuhan China, and later from people that traveled to European destinations that were also popular destinations for Chinese travelers. Once those showed up in the US, in mid March, 2020, it was over. China engaged in egregious efforts to lockdown it's population. Remember them welding the doors shut in apartment buildings? Dragging people off the street that were suspected of infection? Killing all the dogs, because they might be carriers? China actually tried to stop their population from traveling around China during the Chinese New Year. They bulldozed barriers in out of the various cities to prevent people from leaving, but it was too late. Interesting that they did not try to prevent people from flying to other countries. They finally threw in the towel, and gave up on quarantines and lockdowns, which don't work.

 

As far as slowing the spread in order save the lives of the unvaccinated elderly, in the US hospitals sent the elderly diagnosed with Covid 19, back to the Nursing Homes they were living in. With predictable results. Spread of the disease in a vulnerable population and numerous deaths that should not have occurred. Excellent job protecting the elderly. Bring people known to have Covid 19 in to the home, indefinitely, and prevent family and friends who are not sick, from visiting and helping their loved ones.

[Dorian Grey]

Yes, but you are still wrong about the measures taken not slowing COVID spread.

 

The purpose of such measures — lockdowns, masks, social distancing, testing, quarantine, etc — was to delay the inevitable spread of COVID around the world. This was about buying time until protective vaccines could be developed and rolled out. You cannot prevent the inevitable spread, but you can slow it down so it becomes more manageable.

 

This slowing down the spread was in order to save lives of the unvaccinated elderly and vulnerable, and also in order to prevent overloading the hospitals with too many COVID cases all at once. 

 

I'll throw you a bone here and agree...  IF you can damp-down pandemic spread, this would certainly be helpful regarding hospital overcrowding and buying time for evaluating potential therapeutics and vaccine development.  

 

Unfortunately, the measures taken were not particularly effective, and used only to buy time for vaccine development, and Big Pharma's billion dollar babies (Paxlovid, etc) to hatch.  

 

The real Crime of the Century was the suppression of any and all outpatient therapeutics, to keep the EUA coast clear for those vaccines & Pax.  Telling frightened seniors to isolate at home and watch their O-Sat decline, knowing remdesivir & a vent awaited them if they dared to pick up the phone.  NOT COOL!  You got to let doctors treat patients and try a few things, even if just for psychological purposes.  

 

We can do better...  We must do better!  

[Mind]

It is now well-established through peer-reviewed research which no one has refuted - that the IFR from COVID is a fraction of one tenth of one percent, on par with the seasonal flu for people under 70.

 

There is also growing evidence of widespread iatrogenic deaths among those over 70 who were hospitalized - they were not given standard pneumonia care in the beginning of the COVID panic (well-documented, openly admitted by health care "professionals", and unrefuted). Many were given Remdesivir which is well-known and well-documented to have serious side effects like multiple organ failure.

 

Denis Rancourt has been documenting and studying the all cause mortality (ACM) data for the last couple of years and has come to similar conclusions. He has also documented ACM as it relates to the rollout of the COVID injections and claims that the injections are the likely cause in the recent dramatic rise in ACM in many countries around the world.

[Hip]

Denis Rancourt has been documenting and studying the all cause mortality (ACM) data for the last couple of years and has come to similar conclusions. He has also documented ACM as it relates to the rollout of the COVID injections and claims that the injections are the likely cause in the recent dramatic rise in ACM in many countries around the world.

 

Why is there a penchant for quacks on these COVID threads?

 

Denis Rancourt has published a lot of flawed arguments, as this article details. 

[zen]

Why is there a penchant for quacks on these COVID threads?

 

Denis Rancourt has published a lot of flawed arguments, as this article details. 

 

The rise of excess deaths correlates with the introduction of mRNA jabs.
So, unless we can *prove* the root cause is some other factor, it is logical for the people to suspect that the new not fully tested gene-based technology is the culprit. 
 

Also, I am assuming you know that Pfizer used two different production processes for their mRNA jabs.
The high quality Process 1 was used to produce doses used in the trials.
However, they have switched to Process 2 for mass production and the result of that was that the substantial amount of LNP-encapsulated DNA plasmids ended up in the vials which were subsequently injected into the billions of humans. Here is more about that:
https://twitter.com/...766492999995721

 

Finally, this person on X provides interesting weekly updates related to excess deaths trends.

https://twitter.com/...912374612427239

or

https://twitter.com/...976767928774902

So far things look rather bleak IMO.

Edited by zen, 31 December 2023 - 09:50 PM.

[Hip]

The rise of excess deaths correlates with the introduction of mRNA jabs.

 

I've said this umpteen times on these COVID threads, but let's do it one more time, and hope that someone pays attention:

 

When the COVID vaccines were rolled out in New Zealand, there were no excess deaths at all for that whole year of roll out. 

 

NZ had no COVID, because of strict controls. Once COVID itself arrived in NZ later on, that's when all the excess deaths appeared.

 

 

In most other countries, the vaccines were roll out alongside COVID, so from the excess death perspective, you cannot tell whether it might be the vaccines or COVID itself causing the excess deaths. This is why the NZ data is important, because the vaccines were rolled out without COVID being present.