3083 replies to this topic

[lancebr]

Just read some of the latest information from Chris Masterjohn.  He is saying now that he believes

that the reason chloroquine might work is not because of the zinc ionophore activity of it.

 

"When chloroquine brings zinc ions into the cell, they don't get distributed far and wide within the cell.

Instead, they get stuck in a digestive organelle known as the lysosome. Will lysosomal zinc kill SARS-CoV

or SARS-CoV-2? Probably not.

 

So how does chloroquine kill SARS-CoV and SARS-CoV-2 in vitro? Here's what those in vitro papers found:

 

• It increases endosomal pH. Fusion of the virus with the endosome, and later escape of the virus from the endosome, can both be pH-dependent. Increasing endosomal pH appears to prevent fusion of SARS-CoV with the endosome, and to the extent it makes it in, might also prevent its escape into the cytosol. This is supported by the fact that ammonium chloride, another agent that increases endosomal pH, has the same effect.
• Chloroquine and ammonium chloride also raise the pH in the golgi apparatus, the compartment where sugars are added to proteins in a process known as glycosylation. ACE2, the protein on the cell surface that allows the entry of SARS-CoV and SARS-CoV-2 into the cell, is one of the proteins that are glycosylated in the golgi. Chloroquine and ammonium chloride both interrupt the glycosylation of ACE2. They do not affect the amount of ACE2 on the cell surface, but it is possible that the the virus is less able to dock to ACE2 when the protein hasn't been glycosylated."

 

So he seems to believe that it is the pH raising action of chloroquine that would kill the virus. I guess that is why

he is saying he does not recommend quercetin since he seems to believe the zinc ionophore is not the thing that kills the virus

 

Edited by lancebr, 29 March 2020 - 06:20 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

I saw this too lancebr.  The plot thickens!  I really respect Dr M, & am currently re-evaluating my protocol.  Don't know that he's recommending against quercetin, but simply saying it may not do much good.  Says his update tomorrow ($10 premium users) will address this.  

 

Saw this: Ben Neuman PhD is head of the biology department at Texas A&M University-Texarkana. He has worked with coronaviruses for 24 years.

"In people who survive infections with coronaviruses and do well, if you check their blood afterward, as we found with SARS, you find out that they have a really good killer T cell response. And the ones who don’t do well did not really make a killer T cell response.”

 

Pushing Lactoferrin (T-Cell enhancement) & Quinine (endosomal Ph) to top of stack.  Interestingly, cimitidine/Tagamet delays clearance of quinine.  Caffeine & Nicotine speed clearance.

 

https://www.accessda...1799s008lbl.pdf

 

bixbyte linked to a good youtube on the supplement thread.  

 

 

Sleep is important, histamines hamper immune system.  Good stuff!  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 29 March 2020 - 07:09 AM.

[lancebr]

I saw this too lancebr.  The plot thickens!  I really respect Dr M, & am currently re-evaluating my protocol.  Don't know that he's recommending against quercetin, but simply saying it may not do much good.  Says his update tomorrow ($10 premium users) will address this.  

 

Saw this: Ben Neuman PhD is head of the biology department at Texas A&M University-Texarkana. He has worked with coronaviruses for 24 years.

"In people who survive infections with coronaviruses and do well, if you check their blood afterward, as we found with SARS, you find out that they have a really good killer T cell response. And the ones who don’t do well did not really make a killer T cell response.”

 

Pushing Lactoferrin (T-Cell enhancement) & Quinine (endosomal Ph) to top of stack.  Interestingly, cimitidine/Tagamet delays clearance of quinine.  Caffeine & Nicotine speed clearance.

 

https://www.accessda...1799s008lbl.pdf

 

 

Sleep is important, histamines hamper immune system.  Good stuff!  

 

When I was talking about his comments about not recommending quercetin I meant the ones he had made on

facebook in response to peoples questions about quercetin.

 

I had been wondering weeks ago, after learning about chloroquine, how to increase endosome pH.

 

There are actually a number of studies that show how important raising the pH is to killing a virus so

just seemed like that was one way to go.

 

I was on the fence about taking Andrographis because I really haven't looked into it except for my

earlier post on the thread about it, but it is the only herb I have found that has study showing it

raises pH to stop a virus.

 

And it is also good at regulating the immune system to keep IL-6 from getting out of control and

to also help strengthen the immune system.  Some describe its actions as...."Andrograhis is a

broad spectrum anti-viral. It is anti-inflammatory, immuneomodulatory, enhances T-cells, and NK

cells, while helping control virus replication and virus-mediated inflammation."

 

I noticed that on Facebook Chris said he is going to research Andrographis and give his opnion which

should be interesting, but as many studies I have read about it over the past days I think it looks great

for fighting a virus.

 

So guess that is now my top choice. 

 

Maybe those people over in Thailand that made a mad rush on the herbal stores and bought it all out

to where they have a shortage now know something more then I do.

 

Edited by lancebr, 29 March 2020 - 08:10 AM.

[resveratrol_guy]

The trouble with Masterjohn's theory is that it doesn't jive with the data. HCQ alone has been shown to be marginally effective, whereas Zelenko has seen 4 hospitalizations, no intubations, and no deaths with HCQ plus Z pack plus zinc sulfate, across 699 symptomatic patients. Yeah, maybe someone is lying somewhere (why?) but all else being equal, I would respect the data more than the theory. I'm not quite ready to say "It's the zinc, stupid!" but that's where I would be looking.

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 29 March 2020 - 09:27 AM.

[Izan]

new study:

 

Correlation between universal BCG vaccination policy and reduced morbidity and mortality for COVID-19

 

 

COVID-19 has spread to most countries in the world. Puzzlingly, the impact of the disease is different in different countries. These differences are attributed to differences in cultural norms, mitigation efforts, and health infrastructure. Here we propose that national differences in COVID-19 impact could be partially explained by the different national policies respect to Bacillus Calmette-Guerin (BCG) childhood vaccination. BCG vaccination has been reported to offer broad protection to respiratory infections. We compared large number of countries BCG vaccination policies with the morbidity and mortality for COVID-19. We found that countries without universal policies of BCG vaccination (Italy, Nederland, USA) have been more severely affected compared to countries with universal and long-standing BCG policies. Countries that have a late start of universal BCG policy (Iran, 1984) had high mortality, consistent with the idea that BCG protects the vaccinated elderly population. We also found that BCG vaccination also reduced the number of reported COVID-19 cases in a country. The combination of reduced morbidity and mortality makes BCG vaccination a potential new tool in the fight against COVID-19.

 

https://www.medrxiv....3.24.20042937v1

[prunk]

I wonder if Maca root, Melissa officinalis or creatine have any effect against COVID-19.

https://www.research...ith_oseltamivir

https://www.research...influenza_virus

https://www.scienced...91018131154.htm

Edited by prunk, 29 March 2020 - 12:42 PM.

[thompson92]

For those wondering about Dr. Zelenko's efforts, he posted a new video yesterday.

 

Bullet Points.

 

He has now treated 699 patients (not all tested, a combination of positive corona tests and identification via symptoms).

 

No intubations

 

No deaths.

 

4 hospitalizations because of pneumonia development (I am guessing these are older patients).

 

He says he has forwarded his data to the U.S. government and is confident that the President will see it.

 

IMO, Zelenko is overstating what is being accomplished and is a bit self-promotional.  His criteria for inclusion in this 699 is 'showing symptoms'.  We don't know how many of those 699 actually tested positive.  He's giving the medication out to everyone, as far as I can tell.  Also, his firm assertion that his results will be given "to the highest officials, including the president and the prime minister of israel," is fairly self-congratulatory.  How about he take that data, put it into a manuscript and submit it for publication?  Wouldn't that be the route of best disseminating information to practitioners in other hospitals across the planet?  Produce data, publish it and explain it.  What clinician takes to twitter or youtube videos to report data?

 

It's pretty telling that he isn't.  Now, I think the drug works... but his results are dubious in the scope and magnitude.

Edited by thompson92, 29 March 2020 - 01:21 PM.

[Iporuru]

Sorry if this has been posted:

COVID-19: Melatonin as a potential adjuvant treatment

Abstract

This article summarizes the likely benefits of melatonin in the attenuation of COVID-19 based on its putative pathogenesis. The recent outbreak of COVID-19 has become a pandemic with tens of thousands of infected patients. Based on clinical features, pathology, the pathogenesis of acute respiratory disorder induced by either highly homogenous coronaviruses or other pathogens, the evidence suggests that excessive inflammation, oxidation, and an exaggerated immune response very likely contribute to COVID-19 pathology. This leads to a cytokine storm and subsequent progression to acute lung injury (ALI)/acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) and often death. Melatonin, a well-known anti-inflammatory and anti-oxidative molecule, is protective against ALI/ARDS caused by viral and other pathogens. Melatonin is effective in critical care patients by reducing vessel permeability, anxiety, sedation use, and improving sleeping quality, which might also be beneficial for better clinical outcomes for COVID-19 patients. Notably, melatonin has a high safety profile. There is significant data showing that melatonin limits virus-related diseases and would also likely be beneficial in COVID-19 patients. Additional experiments and clinical studies are required to confirm this speculation.

 

[DanCG]

Just read some of the latest information from Chris Masterjohn.  He is saying now that he believes

that the reason chloroquine might work is not because of the zinc ionophore activity of it.

 

"When chloroquine brings zinc ions into the cell, they don't get distributed far and wide within the cell.

Instead, they get stuck in a digestive organelle known as the lysosome. Will lysosomal zinc kill SARS-CoV

or SARS-CoV-2? Probably not.

 

 

 

 

Hmm. Lysosomes are downstream of endosomes. How would zinc get to the lysosome without passing through endosomes first?

[thompson92]

Hmm. Lysosomes are downstream of endosomes. How would zinc get to the lysosome without passing through endosomes first?

 

It doesn't matter.  The viral transcription happens in the cytosol anyway.  Chris's point is that cytosolic labile zinc levels (aka 'free zinc') in the cell is what will shutdown RNA-dependent polymerase (rdrp) and stop the virus from replicating.  Zinc levels in the cytosol where rdrp enzyme exists is what negative regulate that transcription factor.  That transcription only begins to happen if the virus succesfully escapes the endosome and goes out into the cytosol to try to replicate in the first place.  If the virus never escapes the endosome, then the RNA sequence from the virus never has a chance to replicate in the first place and the whole virus ends up being shredded by lysosome, rdrp and zinc then don't matter.

 

His point is that 1) Chloroquine works through moderating endosome pH levels, such that the virus never fuses with the wall of the endosome and uncoats for replication and 2) While Zinc does get raised intracelluarly by chloroquine, he thinks it doesn't create labile zinc or 'free' zinc, it's trapped in lysosomes and I think his next email will be point 3) yes, Quercetin and EGCG raise labile zinc, but not enough to ensure viral replication will be shutdown, so while we can't be sure, it's probably a complete waste of your money to buy these supplements and you are just making expensive urine, etc.

 

I've not gotten back to this issue yet, because I'm still not 100% sure he's correct on point #2 and I haven't even had time to pull the documents yet that validate his views there.  That being said, my first reaction is that, he has a pretty strong chain of logic here, unlike his prior views on Vitamin D.

 

Ideally we need data on #2, does chloroquine actually not raise labile/free zinc.  And we'd need another study with some kind of flourescent tag on the virus to show that when chloroquine is administered it stays in the endosome (early endosome, late endosome and ultimately lysosome) and never freely sits around on the cytosol.  If that kind of study exists in the original SARS-CoV1 virus, that would be interesting.

Edited by thompson92, 29 March 2020 - 05:17 PM.

[sciack]

amazing how this 100 year old document is so actual for today pandemic... they were using quinine then as well...

 

[prunk]

Or liquorise.

[lancebr]

It doesn't matter.  The viral transcription happens in the cytosol anyway.  Chris's point is that cytosolic labile zinc levels (aka 'free zinc') in the cell is what will shutdown RNA-dependent polymerase (rdrp) and stop the virus from replicating.  Zinc levels in the cytosol where rdrp enzyme exists is what negative regulate that transcription factor.  That transcription only begins to happen if the virus succesfully escapes the endosome and goes out into the cytosol to try to replicate in the first place.  If the virus never escapes the endosome, then the RNA sequence from the virus never has a chance to replicate in the first place and the whole virus ends up being shredded by lysosome, rdrp and zinc then don't matter.

 

His point is that 1) Chloroquine works through moderating endosome pH levels, such that the virus never fuses with the wall of the endosome and uncoats for replication and 2) While Zinc does get raised intracelluarly by chloroquine, he thinks it doesn't create labile zinc or 'free' zinc, it's trapped in lysosomes and I think his next email will be point 3) yes, Quercetin and EGCG raise labile zinc, but not enough to ensure viral replication will be shutdown, so while we can't be sure, it's probably a complete waste of your money to buy these supplements and you are just making expensive urine, etc.

 

I've not gotten back to this issue yet, because I'm still not 100% sure he's correct on point #2 and I haven't even had time to pull the documents yet that validate his views there.  That being said, my first reaction is that, he has a pretty strong chain of logic here, unlike his prior views on Vitamin D.

 

Ideally we need data on #2, does chloroquine actually not raise labile/free zinc.  And we'd need another study with some kind of flourescent tag on the virus to show that when chloroquine is administered it stays in the endosome (early endosome, late endosome and ultimately lysosome) and never freely sits around on the cytosol.  If that kind of study exists in the original SARS-CoV1 virus, that would be interesting.

 

Is he still recommending elderberry as one of his main protocol items?  I see on facebook that people

are pushing back on him for that recommendation.  There are studies showing that elderberry increases

IL-6 and other inflammatory cytokines.

 

Seems like a dangerous recommendation especially since this virus has a long incubation period of up to 14 days

or more.  Could be taking elderberry and not even know you got the virus and be increasing IL-6 even more with the

elderberry causing more damage to lungs.

 

 

Edited by lancebr, 29 March 2020 - 07:48 PM.

[DanCG]

It doesn't matter.  The viral transcription happens in the cytosol anyway.  Chris's point is that cytosolic labile zinc levels (aka 'free zinc') in the cell is what will shutdown RNA-dependent polymerase (rdrp) and stop the virus from replicating.  Zinc levels in the cytosol where rdrp enzyme exists is what negative regulate that transcription factor.  That transcription only begins to happen if the virus succesfully escapes the endosome and goes out into the cytosol to try to replicate in the first place.  If the virus never escapes the endosome, then the RNA sequence from the virus never has a chance to replicate in the first place and the whole virus ends up being shredded by lysosome, rdrp and zinc then don't matter.

 

His point is that 1) Chloroquine works through moderating endosome pH levels, such that the virus never fuses with the wall of the endosome and uncoats for replication and 2) While Zinc does get raised intracelluarly by chloroquine, he thinks it doesn't create labile zinc or 'free' zinc, it's trapped in lysosomes and I think his next email will be point 3) yes, Quercetin and EGCG raise labile zinc, but not enough to ensure viral replication will be shutdown, so while we can't be sure, it's probably a complete waste of your money to buy these supplements and you are just making expensive urine, etc.

 

I've not gotten back to this issue yet, because I'm still not 100% sure he's correct on point #2 and I haven't even had time to pull the documents yet that validate his views there.  That being said, my first reaction is that, he has a pretty strong chain of logic here, unlike his prior views on Vitamin D.

 

Ideally we need data on #2, does chloroquine actually not raise labile/free zinc.  And we'd need another study with some kind of flourescent tag on the virus to show that when chloroquine is administered it stays in the endosome (early endosome, late endosome and ultimately lysosome) and never freely sits around on the cytosol.  If that kind of study exists in the original SARS-CoV1 virus, that would be interesting.

Good points. I should have thought more about the viral replication cycle before commenting.

One thing is clear, it would be good to raise intracellular zinc.  Quercetin and EGCG may not raise labile zinc by much, but they may also inhibit 3C-like protease. They are not expensive and it is not as if they don't have benefits of their own. Many readers here probably consume them regularly anyway. 

[Dorian Grey]

amazing how this 100 year old document is so actual for today pandemic... they were using quinine then as well...

 

Love this!  When in doubt... Take Quinine!  After pondering all our options for weeks now, this is still the best advice I've heard.  

[lancebr]

It might be time to get some sodium bicarbonate to take like they did during the Spanish Flu.

 

"Drugs that increase intracellular pH (alkalinity within the cell) have been shown to decrease infectivity of

pH-dependent viruses. However pharmaceutical  drugs that do this can provoke negative side effects.

Sodium bicarbonate is the best way to increase pH in clinical conditions and has been known

as far back as the Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918 to save lives. In 1918 and 1919 while fighting the ‘Flu’

with the U.S. Public Health Service it was brought to my attention that rarely anyone who had been thoroughly

alkalinized with Bicarbonate of Soda contracted the disease, and those who did contract it, if alkalinized early,

would invariably have mild attacks. I have since that time treated all cases of “Cold,” Influenza and LaGripe

by first giving generous doses of Bicarbonate of Soda, and in many, many instances within 36 hours the symptoms

would have entirely abated, said Dr. Eddy Betermann..

 

Dr. Volney S. Cheney reported that, “A number of cases of colds of varying severity were carefully studied in the laboratory.

Observation was made as to the degree of acidity of the urine; the CO2, combining power of the blood as an indicator of the

alkaline reserve; tests were also made to determine the calcium content of the blood, the sugar content; non-protein nitrogen

and the basal metabolism. The urine invariably carried a higher degree of acidity than the normal-in some cases as high as

800 (normal 350); the CO2 combining power of the blood in all cases was low, the highest being 52 per cent; the sugar

content of the blood was generally decreased (below 100 mg. per 100 c.c.); the metabolic rate was always on the minus side.

 

There is a change in the blood chemistry and, consequently, there must be a change in the tissues supplied by the blood.

There is a decrease in the bicarbonates or reserve bases contained in the blood plasma and the tissues. These findings

seem to point the way to the conclusion that a cold is a disturbance of the alkaline balance or reserve, in other words, a

mild acidosis, or perhaps better stated, a lessening of the “buffer” action of the blood plasma through a decrease in its

bicarbonate content.”

 

After doing his experiments, Dr. Cheney reported: “I have been able to induce all the symptoms of a cold, in varying degree

from a simple coryza to that of la grippe and the “flu,” by the induction of an artificial acidosis through the administration of

ammonium and calcium chlorides. The degree of severity of the symptoms was in direct ratio to the degree of acidosis

induced. In the more severe degree of acidosis, all the classical symptoms of the “flu” were present, even including a

low degree of fever. The symptoms rapidly subsided upon the administration of sodium bicarbonate in large doses by

mouth and by rectum.

 

There was also a study showing that using a nebulizer with sodium bicarbonate was effective against lower respiratory

tract infections.

Edited by lancebr, 30 March 2020 - 02:12 AM.

[prunk]

For some I'm not able to post the study concerning ammonium chloride, which is in licorice, against coronavirus in murine.

"Ammonium chloride at a concentration of 20 mM delayed by 4-5 hr the production of virus progeny in mouse L-2 cells infected at high multiplicity with mouse hepatitis virus (MHV).
..the primary effect of ammonium chloride on MHV infection of L-2 cells is to attenuate virus uncoating, thereby chronologically displacing all subsequent virus-encoded functions."

[lancebr]

 

I've not gotten back to this issue yet, because I'm still not 100% sure he's correct on point #2 and I haven't even had time to pull the documents yet that validate his views there.  That being said, my first reaction is that, he has a pretty strong chain of logic here, unlike his prior views on Vitamin D.

 

 

The following information from University of Turin in Italy....it is in Italian.

 

https://www.unitonew...ZEUjoKXYB_4xQkA

 

They say that "the first preliminary data collected in these days in Turin indicate that COVID-19 patients have a very

high prevalence of hypovitaminosis D"

[lancebr]

Good points. I should have thought more about the viral replication cycle before commenting.

One thing is clear, it would be good to raise intracellular zinc.  Quercetin and EGCG may not raise labile zinc by much, but they may also inhibit 3C-like protease. They are not expensive and it is not as if they don't have benefits of their own. Many readers here probably consume them regularly anyway. 

 

Well Chris Masterjohn just put this out about quercetin and ECGC:

 

"computer modeling software to predict that quercetin and EGCG inhibit one of the enzymes that SARS-CoV-2 uses to

replicate, known as 3CL protease. The model predicts that EGCG would inhibit 50% of the enzyme's activity at a

concentration of 13 uM, which is still seven times what can be reached in plasma with supplements. By contrast, it

predicts that quercetin inhibits the enzyme at 0.7 uM, well within the concentrations that can be reached in plasma

using 1000 milligram doses.

 

At the moment, I am exceedingly doubtful that quercetin or EGCG can kill SARS-CoV-2 by acting as zinc ionophores. I find the 

predicted inhibition of the 3CL protease by realistic concentrations of quercetin to be promising, but I would like to see at a

minimum a paper showing that quercetin has this effect in cells infected with the virus before I would consider adding it to

my prevention regimen."

 

Isn't a 1000 mg dose high for quercetin, especially if there is the possibility it can damage DNA

 

 

 

Edited by lancebr, 30 March 2020 - 04:32 AM.

[xEva]

It might be time to get some sodium bicarbonate to take like they did during the Spanish Flu.

...

There was also a study showing that using a nebulizer with sodium bicarbonate was effective against lower respiratory

tract infections.

 

You must have missed the early Chinese paper that said that the worst outcome cases of covid19 had metabolic alkalosis.

 

it's linked somewhere up the thread.

[Kalliste]

I read the whole thread, did not see almost any mention of Curcumin/Turmeric or the use of Curry (the real spice mix with all 10 Classic ingredients, not the paste with seed oils and flavouring)

Does anyone have an opposing view on those? Curcumin often comes up as anti viral although it has a low absorption. 

 

 

The following information from University of Turin in Italy....it is in Italian.

 

https://www.unitonew...ZEUjoKXYB_4xQkA

 

They say that "the first preliminary data collected in these days in Turin indicate that COVID-19 patients have a very

high prevalence of hypovitaminosis D"

 

The sun is still too low for Vit D where I live so I've been sitting on the balcony almost naked in the sun along with two supplemental photon sources: One 300w Philips UV lamp and one 150w Philips IR lamp to get as much UV-B/IR absorption as possible. 

 

I also have extra melatonin in stock. If I start feeling sick I will take a lot of melatonin and C-vitamin before bed. 

[OP2040]

Hi folks,

I watch these videos from Vincent Racaniello, one of the most prominent virologists in the world.  He has switched from his normal classes to these podcasts with really great guests.  This one in particular has a doctor with tons of great information directly from the clinic.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=myaXkQesY5c

 

Of particular note is that the neutrophil-lymphocyte ratio is turinng out to be a major diagnostic marker of whether someone does really well vs really bad.  A higher ratio is worse, as it tends to be in other disease.  To me, this verifies our attempts to boost T-cells and NK cells, for me with melatonin and AHCC.

 

However, the doctor also mentions that the immunological profile does indicate that IL-6 is the major culprit driving this bad outcome and bad NLR.  This doesn't necessarily verify anything about cytokine storm per se, but it provides another easy target.  The idea is that driving down IL-6 will drive down neutrophil count, and therefore reduce the NLR ratio.

 

This has me for the first time wanting to change my strategy since it seems it was only half correct, and possibly less than half correct, by trying to boost only one half of the equation (enhance lymphocytes.  So lets figure out how to get IL-6 and neutrophils down.

 

I also think timing is very important here.  What may help as a prophylactic, may not be the right strategy for after you have the disease.  So high lymphocytes may be a good prophylactic, but then after infection taming IL-6/neutrophil.  Just a guess, and it complicates things because of how hard it is to determine if you actually are infected.

 

Ideas?

 

 

[OP2040]

In light of the above, some good news about melatonin is that while it increases lymphocytes, there is evidence it actually decreases neutrophils.

 

https://joe.bioscien...oe/227/1/49.xml

 

The problem with targeting IL-6 is that it's so generic and pretty much anything inflammatory increases it, and anything anti-inflammatory decreases it.

[Daniel Cooper]

IMO, Zelenko is overstating what is being accomplished and is a bit self-promotional.  His criteria for inclusion in this 699 is 'showing symptoms'.  We don't know how many of those 699 actually tested positive.  He's giving the medication out to everyone, as far as I can tell.  Also, his firm assertion that his results will be given "to the highest officials, including the president and the prime minister of israel," is fairly self-congratulatory.  How about he take that data, put it into a manuscript and submit it for publication?  Wouldn't that be the route of best disseminating information to practitioners in other hospitals across the planet?  Produce data, publish it and explain it.  What clinician takes to twitter or youtube videos to report data?

 

It's pretty telling that he isn't.  Now, I think the drug works... but his results are dubious in the scope and magnitude.

 

I can tell you that as of a week ago, public health officials in my area were saying that of the people that showed up at the hospital with symptoms asking for testing, only about 10% tested positive for covid-19.

 

That makes his results virtually worthless.

[Daniel Cooper]

 

 

Isn't a 1000 mg dose high for quercetin, especially if there is the possibility it can damage DNA

 

1000mg is somewhat high, but if you were taking a lower dose prophylactically (say 100s of mg up to 500mg) I don't think that would be an issue.  And if you actually got sick, taking 1,000mg/day for the 2 weeks that you might be seriously sick shouldn't be an issue.

[Chad Meadows]

You must have missed the early Chinese paper that said that the worst outcome cases of covid19 had metabolic alkalosis.

 

it's linked somewhere up the thread.

 

Note, metabolic alkalosis likely could be the result of potassium deficiency.

 

"...Common causes include prolonged vomiting, hypovolemia, diuretic use, and hypokalemia" from https://www.merckman...bolic-alkalosis

[thompson92]

 

Of particular note is that the neutrophil-lymphocyte ratio is turinng out to be a major diagnostic marker of whether someone does really well vs really bad.  A higher ratio is worse, as it tends to be in other disease.  To me, this verifies our attempts to boost T-cells and NK cells, for me with melatonin and AHCC.

 

However, the doctor also mentions that the immunological profile does indicate that IL-6 is the major culprit driving this bad outcome and bad NLR.  This doesn't necessarily verify anything about cytokine storm per se, but it provides another easy target.  The idea is that driving down IL-6 will drive down neutrophil count, and therefore reduce the NLR ratio.

 

 

I read about this the other day after reading about it from an Italian ER staffer.  They are using this ratio to monitor people in the hospital.  Here is a paper that supports this biomarker.

 

Liu, J., Liu, Y., Xiang, P., Pu, L., Xiong, H., & Li, C. et al. (2020). Neutrophil-to-Lymphocyte Ratio Predicts Severe Illness Patients with 2019 Novel Coronavirus in the Early Stage. doi:10.1101/2020.02.10.20021584

 

You'll also note the CRP markers are pretty high, but maybe that is too general a marker of inflammation.  Potassium is normal.

Edited by thompson92, 30 March 2020 - 01:49 PM.

[OP2040]

thanks thompson92.  I've read a bit about it now, and most of it is diagnostic,  Immune interventions are notoriously complex unfortunately.  High NLR is associated with all kinds of infections and age-related immune dysfunction.  Intriguingly, high WBC, which I presume to be high NLR have been associated with hypertension for a very long time,

 

That's all well and good, but targeting it is very murky it seems.  AHCC is still my go to, and it definitely increases lymphocytes, decreases neutrophils in the studies I've been reading.  I don't think one would want either in isolation so that is good.

[Daniel Cooper]

Just read some of the latest information from Chris Masterjohn.  He is saying now that he believes

that the reason chloroquine might work is not because of the zinc ionophore activity of it.

 

"When chloroquine brings zinc ions into the cell, they don't get distributed far and wide within the cell.

Instead, they get stuck in a digestive organelle known as the lysosome. Will lysosomal zinc kill SARS-CoV

or SARS-CoV-2? Probably not.

 

So how does chloroquine kill SARS-CoV and SARS-CoV-2 in vitro? Here's what those in vitro papers found:

 

• It increases endosomal pH. Fusion of the virus with the endosome, and later escape of the virus from the endosome, can both be pH-dependent. Increasing endosomal pH appears to prevent fusion of SARS-CoV with the endosome, and to the extent it makes it in, might also prevent its escape into the cytosol. This is supported by the fact that ammonium chloride, another agent that increases endosomal pH, has the same effect.
• Chloroquine and ammonium chloride also raise the pH in the golgi apparatus, the compartment where sugars are added to proteins in a process known as glycosylation. ACE2, the protein on the cell surface that allows the entry of SARS-CoV and SARS-CoV-2 into the cell, is one of the proteins that are glycosylated in the golgi. Chloroquine and ammonium chloride both interrupt the glycosylation of ACE2. They do not affect the amount of ACE2 on the cell surface, but it is possible that the the virus is less able to dock to ACE2 when the protein hasn't been glycosylated."

 

So he seems to believe that it is the pH raising action of chloroquine that would kill the virus. I guess that is why

he is saying he does not recommend quercetin since he seems to believe the zinc ionophore is not the thing that kills the virus

 

This seems like wild assed speculation from someone that is well outside their lane of expertise.

 

I had not previously settled on my opinion of Materjohn.  

 

I am rapidly changing that position.  

[Keizo]

Is he still recommending elderberry as one of his main protocol items?  I see on facebook that people

are pushing back on him for that recommendation.  There are studies showing that elderberry increases

IL-6 and other inflammatory cytokines.

 

Seems like a dangerous recommendation especially since this virus has a long incubation period of up to 14 days

or more.  Could be taking elderberry and not even know you got the virus and be increasing IL-6 even more with the

elderberry causing more damage to lungs.

And does elderberry normally cause damage to lungs? I don't think so. If the effect is mild and transient upon discontinuation it might not matter, the doctors will hardly pump you full of elderberry juice once you are intubated. I don't know much about elderberry. I'm just a pleb but I assume the lung damage is later stages of infection, some sort of threshold effect where inflammation etc gets out of hand, not something silent that goes on and then you suddenly develop fever and get pneumonia. Altho viruses can act in weird ways.

 

Maybe someone knows more about IL-6 etc. in relation to viral infections, and specific ones.... Just glancing at some stuff (like this https://www.frontier...2019.01057/full ) it seems rather complicated. And also for example studies suggesting Selank (increases IL-6 activity) is anti-viral (I think it is from experience with regards to common cold).

 

Also what OP2040 said about timing. Prevention of infection getting hold and late stage treatment I imagine to be quite different.