3083 replies to this topic

[Iporuru]

Resveratrol as another zinc ionophore?

 

Effect of resveratrol and zinc on intracellular zinc status in normal human prostate epithelial cells

 

“To evaluate the influence of resveratrol on cellular zinc status, normal human prostatę epithelial (NHPrE) cells were treated with resveratrol (0, 0.5, 1, 2.5, 5, and 10 μM) and zinc [0, 4, 16, and 32 μM, representing zinc-deficient (ZD), zinc-normal (ZN), zinc-adequate (ZA), and zinc-supplemented (ZS) conditions, respectively]. A progressive reduction in cell growth was observed in cells treated with increasing amounts of resveratrol (2.5–10 μM). Resveratrol at 5 and 10 μM resulted in a dramatic increase in cellular total zinc concentration, especially in ZS cells.”

 

However:

 

“Furthermore, increases in cellular zinc status were associated with elevated levels of reactive oxygen species and senescence, as evidenced by morphological and histochemical changes in cells treated with 2.5 or 10 μM resveratrol, especially in ZA and ZS cells”

 

The amount of resveratrol needed to achieve these levels is high:

 

„A recent human study reported that single-dose intakes of up to 5 g of resveratrol resulted in peak plasma concentration of 2.4 μM at 1.5 h after intake (6). Moreover, peak levels of two monoglucuronides and resveratrol-3-sulfate were three and eightfold higher, respectively. These levels are close to the systemic concentration of ~5 μM that has been suggested by mechanistic in vitro cellular studies to be required to elicit bioactivities relevant to chemoprevention.”

 

“Formation of a resveratrol-Zn(II) complex is very likely to generate ROS, which could cause DNA damage. Senescence is one response to sublethal cellular stress. The increased percentage of cells undergoing senescence, along with increased zinc and resveratrol concentration, may be explained by increased ROS generation as the result of enhanced complex formation, as supported by the strong positive association between the percentage of senescent cells and the quantity of ROS generated within the cells (Fig. 8).”

 

[lancebr]

And does elderberry normally cause damage to lungs? I don't think so. If the effect is mild and transient upon discontinuation it might not matter, the doctors will hardly pump you full of elderberry juice once you are intubated. I don't know much about elderberry. I'm just a pleb but I assume the lung damage is later stages of infection, some sort of threshold effect where inflammation etc gets out of hand, not something silent that goes on and then you suddenly develop fever and get pneumonia. Altho viruses can act in weird ways.

 

Maybe someone knows more about IL-6 etc. in relation to viral infections, and specific ones.... Just glancing at some stuff (like this https://www.frontier...2019.01057/full ) it seems rather complicated. And also for example studies suggesting Selank (increases IL-6 activity) is anti-viral (I think it is from experience with regards to common cold).

 

Also what OP2040 said about timing. Prevention of infection getting hold and late stage treatment I imagine to be quite different.

 

Actually they are finding that the lung damage is not in the late stages of the infection.

 

CT scans are showing that for some patients there is severe damage to lungs even before

they are showing symptoms. So that would mean that during the incubation period this virus

is attacking the lungs and the person doesn't even know they have the virus yet.

 

"After COVI-19 infects the upper and lower respiratory tract it can cause mild or highly acute

respiratory syndrome with consequent release of pro-inflammatory cytokines, including

interleukin (IL)-6. Suppression of pro-inflammatory IL-6 has been shown to have a

therapeutic effect in many inflammatory type diseases, including viral infections."

 

Doctors believe that one way to treat this damage is to use Il-6 inhibitors:

 

"Certain patients infected with coronavirus COVID-19 may develop an uncontrolled immune

response (cytokine storm) resulting in severe damage to lung tissue which could lead to respiratory

failure. Early clinical studies conducted by doctors in China suggest that anti-IL6 MAbs may be used

in clinical practice for treatment of COVID-19."

 

Since there is studies that show elderberry raises IL-6 then why would anyone want to be taking that

and increasing their levels if they are not sure they have the virus.  Since this virus can cause damage

to the lungs even before symptoms show then increasing IL-6 does not seem to be a good thing.

 

 

[Iporuru]

A goldmine of information about phenolic zinc ionophores

 

tl;dr  

The best phenolic ionophores – quercetin, EGCG, luteolin, tannic acid

Resveratrol – useless

Quercetin and especially EGCG – not much weaker than strong, well-established synthetic pharmacological ionophores, such as clioquinol and pyrithione

 

A simple liposome assay for the screening of zinc ionophore activity of polyphenols

 

(Full text available you know where )

 

"The aim of this work was to evaluate the capacity of fourteen different phenolic compounds to bind and chelate zinc ions in solution and to demonstrate their ability to act as zinc ionophores. We focused on fourteen phenolic compounds grouped according to their chemical structure, including the flavonoids quercetin (QCT), epigallocatechin-3-gallate (EGCG), luteolin (LUT), naringenin (NAR), phloretin (PHLO), genistein (GEN), catechin hydrate (CAT HYD), rutin (RUT) and dihydroquercetin or taxifolin (TAX); the phenolic acids gallic acid (GAL), tannic acid (TAN) and caffeic acid (CAF); the stilbene resveratrol (RSV); and other polyphenols such as catechol (CAT). Two different zinc ionophore agents, clioquinol and pyrithione, were used to compare the ionophore activity of the selected polyphenols, as well as the zinc sequestrant molecule, TPEN."

 

"The zinc ionophore activity presented by the bioactive nutrients was compared with the strong, well-established synthetic pharmacological ionophores, such as clioquinol and pyrithione."

 

"Although the results from the liposomal assay presented herein demonstrate an active transport mechanism of zinc by the phenolic compounds, further investigation of their biological action in vivo needs to be done, since this was demonstrated in a controlled in vitro system and may not correlate to the conditions occurring in a living organism."

 

 

Attached Files

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Edited by Iporuru, 30 March 2020 - 04:45 PM.

[lancebr]

You must have missed the early Chinese paper that said that the worst outcome cases of covid19 had metabolic alkalosis.

 

it's linked somewhere up the thread.

 

I haven't found it yet but from all the information I have read so far from China they are saying

that it is metabolic acidosis:

 

"The clinical manifestation of COVID-19 include fever, cough, fatigue, muscle pain, diarrhea, and

pneumonia, which can develop to acute respiratory distress syndrome, metabolic acidosis, septic

shock, coagulation dysfunction, and organ failure such as liver, kidney, and heart failure."

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/32102726

 

"severe cases developed rapidly into acute respiratory distress syndrome, septic shock,

hard-to-correct metabolic acidosis, and coagulation dysfunction."

 

https://www.mdpi.com...383/9/2/575/htm

 

And here is actually part of a protocol using bicarbonate as part of the treatment of Covid 19:

 

"ICU patients often have non-anion-gap metabolic acidosis (NAGMA).  Treatment of NAGMA

with bicarbonate may be the safest way to address a low pH (rather than increasing the intensity

of mechanical ventilation and thereby threatening the lung). Even if the metabolic acid/base status

is normal, IV bicarbonate may still be considered to improve pH, while simultaneously continuing

lung-protective ventilation."

 

https://emcrit.org/ibcc/covid19/

 

So it seem that this virus, like most virus, likes the acidic environment and increases it in the body

so sodium bicarbonate might be a good preventative measure.
 

Edited by lancebr, 30 March 2020 - 05:00 PM.

[bladedmind]

https://www.fda.gov/...136534/download

The FDA has authorized emergency use of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine by licensed provider prescription from the supply in the national stockpile.

 

it is reasonable to believe that the known and potential benefits of chloroquine phosphate and hydroxychloroquine sulfate, when used for the treatment of SARS-CoV-2 and used consistently with the Scope of Authorization of this letter (Section II), outweigh the known and potential risks of these products.

 

 

One country after another is authorizing the chloroquines for Covid-19, and some are applying it as a standard treatment, in decreasing order of frequency:   for severe cases, early symptoms, or prophylaxis for health workers or coresident family.   (This could be a rush to judgment driven by desperation, but anecdotal clinical data justify it in emergency conditions.)

 

It would be beating a dead horse to provide country by country links.  Italy, for instance:

 

Doctors in Italy have finally began widely prescribing hydroxychloroquine in certain combinations in Rome and the wider region of Lazio with a population of around six million. According to Corriere della Sera, a well known Italian daily newspaper, Dr. Pier Luigi Bartoletti, Deputy National Secretary of the Italian Federation of General Practitioners, explains that every single person with Covid-19 that has early signs, like a cough or a fever for example, is now being treated with the anti-malaria drug.

https://www.trustnod...roxychloroquine

 

 

 

One document I ran across I have not seen cited elsewhere.  A memo informed in part by Norway-resident native-Chinese academic’s access to open-source Chinese documents and interviews with Wuhan medical personnel.   The last paragraph I quote purportedly explains the origin of chloroquine treatment in China.

https://www.fda.gov/...136534/download

 

Chloroquine appears to be most effective if given early in the disease when symptoms are mild. This was reported in Chinese newspapers and other state-controlled media as early as early February3, 4. Chloroquine is the drug most often mentioned in Chinese newspapers. It simple and fast to produce in large quantities and its side effects are well known and controllable….

 

For patients not tolerating or responding to chloroquine, three other drugs have been tried…. All of these have moderate to severe side-effects…, they are less studied, and they are more expensive to produce….

 

Chinese authorities have, according to our open-source intelligence, placed large orders on chloroquine, and we have got the impression that they maybe using this drug on a vast scale….

 

We got the following information from a hospital in Wuhan: …. in the consultation of 80 patients with systemic lupus erythematosus treated by dermatology department of the hospital, it was found that they were not infected with new coronavirus pneumonia.

 

 

 

They suggest that Western heath authorities can survey the susceptibility of autoimmune patients on a chloroquine for their susceptibility to the virus (compared to matched controls, I suppose).  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by bladedmind, 30 March 2020 - 05:30 PM.

[Blueflash]

https://examine.com/...m-interleukin-6

 

Someone mentioned lowering IL-6. This should compliment vitamin D as well?

[zorba990]

Who has "no symptoms" with severe lung damage? This does not compute and sounds like a MSM rehash.
One would experience shortness of breath, vastly reduced energy, possible dizziness, blurry vision, general unsteadiness, etc.

[Mind]

It might be time to get some sodium bicarbonate to take like they did during the Spanish Flu.

 

"Drugs that increase intracellular pH (alkalinity within the cell) have been shown to decrease infectivity of

pH-dependent viruses. However pharmaceutical  drugs that do this can provoke negative side effects.

Sodium bicarbonate is the best way to increase pH in clinical conditions and has been known

as far back as the Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918 to save lives. In 1918 and 1919 while fighting the ‘Flu’

with the U.S. Public Health Service it was brought to my attention that rarely anyone who had been thoroughly

alkalinized with Bicarbonate of Soda contracted the disease, and those who did contract it, if alkalinized early,

would invariably have mild attacks. I have since that time treated all cases of “Cold,” Influenza and LaGripe

by first giving generous doses of Bicarbonate of Soda, and in many, many instances within 36 hours the symptoms

would have entirely abated, said Dr. Eddy Betermann..

 

Dr. Volney S. Cheney reported that, “A number of cases of colds of varying severity were carefully studied in the laboratory.

Observation was made as to the degree of acidity of the urine; the CO2, combining power of the blood as an indicator of the

alkaline reserve; tests were also made to determine the calcium content of the blood, the sugar content; non-protein nitrogen

and the basal metabolism. The urine invariably carried a higher degree of acidity than the normal-in some cases as high as

800 (normal 350); the CO2 combining power of the blood in all cases was low, the highest being 52 per cent; the sugar

content of the blood was generally decreased (below 100 mg. per 100 c.c.); the metabolic rate was always on the minus side.

 

There is a change in the blood chemistry and, consequently, there must be a change in the tissues supplied by the blood.

There is a decrease in the bicarbonates or reserve bases contained in the blood plasma and the tissues. These findings

seem to point the way to the conclusion that a cold is a disturbance of the alkaline balance or reserve, in other words, a

mild acidosis, or perhaps better stated, a lessening of the “buffer” action of the blood plasma through a decrease in its

bicarbonate content.”

 

After doing his experiments, Dr. Cheney reported: “I have been able to induce all the symptoms of a cold, in varying degree

from a simple coryza to that of la grippe and the “flu,” by the induction of an artificial acidosis through the administration of

ammonium and calcium chlorides. The degree of severity of the symptoms was in direct ratio to the degree of acidosis

induced. In the more severe degree of acidosis, all the classical symptoms of the “flu” were present, even including a

low degree of fever. The symptoms rapidly subsided upon the administration of sodium bicarbonate in large doses by

mouth and by rectum.

 

There was also a study showing that using a nebulizer with sodium bicarbonate was effective against lower respiratory

tract infections.

 

Interesting....in contrast with the IV vitamin C crowd.

 

One therapy would hypotheically lower pH dramatically

 

The other would raise pH dramatically.

 

It is suggested that hydroxychloroquine reduces virus replication through raising pH. I wonder what the mechanism of action is for the vitamin C therapy. Just wondering if these two diametrically opposed therapies (pH-wise) "work" by manipulating pH levels to unnatural levels. Maybe viruses need a relatively "normal" pH in order to replicate most efficiently. Just a layman's thought.

[Mind]

I can tell you that as of a week ago, public health officials in my area were saying that of the people that showed up at the hospital with symptoms asking for testing, only about 10% tested positive for covid-19.

 

That makes his results virtually worthless.

 

I wouldn't say completely worthless. It would be good to know the number of positive tests vs. the symptomatic cases.

 

The zinc angle still has a lot of good reasoning behind it, IMO.

[Keizo]

Actually they are finding that the lung damage is not in the late stages of the infection.

 

CT scans are showing that for some patients there is severe damage to lungs even before

they are showing symptoms. So that would mean that during the incubation period this virus

is attacking the lungs and the person doesn't even know they have the virus yet.

 

[...]

That's very concerning. If you are correct about IL-6 then I guess shouldn't be worried having switched over from Selank to Cerebrolysin (might decrease IL-6 activity) for cognitive performance. Still rather confusing about the cytokines.

 

Who has "no symptoms" with severe lung damage? This does not compute and sounds like a MSM rehash.
One would experience shortness of breath, vastly reduced energy, possible dizziness, blurry vision, general unsteadiness, etc.

 

 

I hope things get less confusing with time. It would be interesting to see after all is said and done if there will be people who always were asymptomatic or close to, if they show up positive for having had the infection and then showing some mild-moderate lung damage.

-------------

 

Sticking to my 5000 IU D3, as normal. Levels should be at about 120 nmol/L as per usual. Stacking up on some sleeping pills in case I get severe anxiety/insomnia (lack sleep as already mentioned can really mess with disease susceptibility.

[Daniel Cooper]

I wouldn't say completely worthless. It would be good to know the number of positive tests vs. the symptomatic cases.

 

The zinc angle still has a lot of good reasoning behind it, IMO.

 

The zinc angle may be correct independently of what this particular doctor is reporting, but his mingling of tested positive with untested patients in the numbers he's reporting shows a disturbing lack of rigor on his part. 

 

If he's that slipshod about this, can I believe him about anything?

[zorba990]

Interesting....in contrast with the IV vitamin C crowd.

One therapy would hypotheically lower pH dramatically

The other would raise pH dramatically.

It is suggested that hydroxychloroquine reduces virus replication through raising pH. I wonder what the mechanism of action is for the vitamin C therapy. Just wondering if these two diametrically opposed therapies (pH-wise) "work" by manipulating pH levels to unnatural levels. Maybe viruses need a relatively "normal" pH in order to replicate most efficiently. Just a layman's thought.

Isn't IV-C usually sodium ascorbate (from study below:: sodium ascorbate solution, MEGA-C-PLUS®, 500 mg/mL, pH range 5.5-7.0 from Merit Pharmaceuticals, Los Angeles, CA, 90065.)
https://riordanclini...h-ivc-protocol/

Do we know pH does down with IV-C? Response to acidic pH from the body would be bicarbonate buffering as blood pH is tightly controlled. So we may run out of bicarb I guess

Edited by zorba990, 30 March 2020 - 05:51 PM.

[lancebr]

Interesting....in contrast with the IV vitamin C crowd.

 

One therapy would hypotheically lower pH dramatically

 

The other would raise pH dramatically.

 

It is suggested that hydroxychloroquine reduces virus replication through raising pH. I wonder what the mechanism of action is for the vitamin C therapy. Just wondering if these two diametrically opposed therapies (pH-wise) "work" by manipulating pH levels to unnatural levels. Maybe viruses need a relatively "normal" pH in order to replicate most efficiently. Just a layman's thought.

 

Maybe the IV vitamin C is not in contrast to the pH theory.  Here is a study done on critically ill patients

who had IV Vitamin C and the results showed the following:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/29522710

 

"The 2 g/d dose was associated with normal plasma concentrations, and the 10 g/d dose was associated

with supranormal plasma concentrations, increased oxalate excretion, and metabolic alkalosis."

 

Maybe IV Vitamin C is like lemons...I know someone who drinks lemon juice daily to alkalize his body and who would

think that something acidic like lemon juice would alkalize the body.

 

From my earlier post today it is clear form the information that metabolic acidosis is being seen in patients who have

this Covid 19 and even one of the protocols for treatment of the lungs is bicarbonate.

 

I remember reading a study of bicarbonate being used in a nebulizer to treat lower respiratory tract infections.

 

One reason I have decided to supplement with Andrographis is because it is the only herb I have found a study

that shows it prevent replication of a virus by inhibition of acidification. An also because Andrographis is a good

cytokine regulator that keeps IL-6 under control.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by lancebr, 30 March 2020 - 06:57 PM.

[xEva]

I haven't found it yet but from all the information I have read so far from China they are saying

that it is metabolic acidosis:

 

"The clinical manifestation of COVID-19 include fever, cough, fatigue, muscle pain, diarrhea, and

pneumonia, which can develop to acute respiratory distress syndrome, metabolic acidosis, septic

shock, coagulation dysfunction, and organ failure such as liver, kidney, and heart failure."

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/32102726

 

"severe cases developed rapidly into acute respiratory distress syndrome, septic shock,

hard-to-correct metabolic acidosis, and coagulation dysfunction."

 

https://www.mdpi.com...383/9/2/575/htm

 

And here is actually part of a protocol using bicarbonate as part of the treatment of Covid 19:

 

"ICU patients often have non-anion-gap metabolic acidosis (NAGMA).  Treatment of NAGMA

with bicarbonate may be the safest way to address a low pH (rather than increasing the intensity

of mechanical ventilation and thereby threatening the lung). Even if the metabolic acid/base status

is normal, IV bicarbonate may still be considered to improve pH, while simultaneously continuing

lung-protective ventilation."

 

https://emcrit.org/ibcc/covid19/

 

So it seem that this virus, like most virus, likes the acidic environment and increases it in the body

so sodium bicarbonate might be a good preventative measure.
 

 

 

Interesting, I guess your impression depends on what study you happen to read. This is the one I read:

Expert consensus on comprehensive treatment of coronavirus disease in Shanghai 2019

In severe cases, D-dimer levels are elevated, other coagulation indicators are abnormal, lactic acid levels are elevated, peripheral blood lymphocytes and CD4 + T lymphocytes are progressively reduced, and electrolyte disorders and acid-base imbalances are caused by metabolic alkalosis

 Significant progress> 50%, lactic dehydrogenase (LDH)> 2 times the upper limit of normal value, blood lactic acid ≥3 mmol / L, metabolic alkalosis, etc. are all early warning indicators of severe disease.

 

though now that I re-read it, look like it's an error in automatic translation. With lactic acid elevated, it should be acidosis.

 

Good catch!

Edited by xEva, 30 March 2020 - 07:13 PM.

[pamojja]

Interesting....in contrast with the IV vitamin C crowd.

 

One therapy would hypotheically lower pH dramatically

 

The other would raise pH dramatically.

 

Not at all. Vitamin C IVs are only given with pH neutral sodium ascorbate. However, some would argue that only with additional oral ascorbic acid is the way to go:

 

A Call for Immediate Attention To The Use of Oral Ascorbic Acid in COVID-19 Patients

 

Until the position of sodium ascorbate as a REDOX molecule in the human body is further elucidated, it is my humble opinion that COVID-19 patients be afforded the most efficacious treatment using oral supplementation of ascorbic acid to reduce hypoxia and lower cell-free hemoglobin, the main cause for ARDS in COVID-19. 

 

The combined oral ascorbic acid AND intravenous sodium ascorbate treatment may confer COVID-19 patients the best of both worlds, in that sodium ascorbate IV C will deliver  a continuous supply of electrons to haptoglobin in the binding and stabilization of cell-free heme, while oral ascorbic acid is freed to support all cellular redox reactions, immune responsea and mitochondrial protection.

 

Also in my personal experience taking in average 24 g/d of ascorbic acid for the last 11 years, and having blood pH meassured 6 times it actually came back 4 times above normal range of 7.35-7.45; in avg. 7.47

Edited by pamojja, 30 March 2020 - 07:25 PM.

[lancebr]

Interesting, I guess your impression depends on what study you happen to read. This is the one I read:

Expert consensus on comprehensive treatment of coronavirus disease in Shanghai 2019

In severe cases, D-dimer levels are elevated, other coagulation indicators are abnormal, lactic acid levels are elevated, peripheral blood lymphocytes and CD4 + T lymphocytes are progressively reduced, and electrolyte disorders and acid-base imbalances are caused by metabolic alkalosis

 Significant progress> 50%, lactic dehydrogenase (LDH)> 2 times the upper limit of normal value, blood lactic acid ≥3 mmol / L, metabolic alkalosis, etc. are all early warning indicators of severe disease.

 

though now that I re-read it, look like it's an error in automatic translation. With lactic acid elevated, it should be acidosis.

 

Good catch!

 

Yeh, I think it was an error in the translation.  Since they note that there was an increase in

lactic acid then that would usually cause metabolic acidosis:

 

"Lactic acidosis is a medical condition characterized by the buildup of lactate (especially L-lactate)

in the body, with formation of an excessively low pH in the bloodstream. It is a form of metabolic acidosis,

in which excessive acid accumulates due to a problem with the body's metabolism."

 

"A normal blood lactate level is 0.5-1 mmol/L. Hyperlactatemia is defined as a persistent, mild to moderately elevated

(2-4 mmol/L) lactate level without metabolic acidosis. This can occur with adequate tissue perfusion and tissue oxygenation.

A level > 4 mmol/L defines lactic acidosis, a level high enough to tip the acid-base balance, which may result in a serum

pH < 7.35 in association with metabolic acidosis."

 

 

Edited by lancebr, 30 March 2020 - 07:52 PM.

[Mind]

Not at all. Vitamin C IVs are only given with pH neutral sodium ascorbate. However, some would argue that only with additional oral ascorbic acid is the way to go:

 

 

Also in my personal experience taking in average 24 g/d of ascorbic acid for the last 11 years, and having blood pH meassured 6 times it actually came back 4 times above normal range of 7.35-7.45; in avg. 7.47

 

Great information. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Robert Magnuson]

Please see this recent high dose Vitamin C injections for covid-19 video on ABC News Prime:

 

 

If Fox picks it up, Trump will likely become aware of this treatment and many lives will be saved. 

[lancebr]

They just said on FOX news that some doctors are using NAC to stop the inflammation

that is damaging the lungs and they are seeing good results.

 

They didn't mention anything about IV Vitamin C.

[lancebr]

The doctor who is using NAC to treat the lungs is using it mixed with Heparin in a nebulizer.

 

He has released his protocol below:

 

https://mcuserconten...30_Mar_2020.pdf

 

I wonder if could just use NAC in a nebulizer and it still be good to treat the lungs.

[resveratrol_guy]

I can tell you that as of a week ago, public health officials in my area were saying that of the people that showed up at the hospital with symptoms asking for testing, only about 10% tested positive for covid-19.

 

That makes his results virtually worthless.

 

RNA testing accuracy is known to be low, espcially early on in the course of the disease. The estimates I've seen are in the range of 30 to 50% sensitivity. One nurse I spoke to said that her hospital was experiencing false negatives even on day 3 of fever, only to turn positive as symptoms worsened.

 

His results are grounded in good theory. He's not reaching for random cures. This fact biases the prior distribution toward the production of a useful therapy, even if it's still challenging. I also have yet to see any comparable set of hundreds of patients with symptoms, all of whom but 1% manage to escape the need for hospitalization. There's plenty of data on this from various health institutions  around the globe. Many of them report on the number of tests, number of positives, and number deemed in need of hospitalization. The hospitalized cases aren't turning around in a few days. It's more like 10 days, if you look at the exit data.

 

The biggest value in his results is that they point us in the direction of practical stuff to offer patients, right now. If his result is worth only 5 bits of information, that already cuts the search space by a factor of 32. I'm not saying this is the case, but my point is that lots of "virtually useless" aspects of his results can quickly combine to be informative. It's not that he's right. It's that he's helping to narrow the search and therefore save time and save lives.

[resveratrol_guy]

Please see this recent high dose Vitamin C injections for covid-19 video on ABC News Prime:

 

 

If Fox picks it up, Trump will likely become aware of this treatment and many lives will be saved.

 

It looks like you already got your wish, as NY docs are using this with COVID19 patients. You can bet they're already social networking this thing all over the place. It's only vitamin C, so I don't think it needs any kind of official sanction.

 

It's actually an ingenious hack because it's a huge primitive hammer approach based on a vitamin which is old news. So it can easily slip into the ICU ward without raising eyebrows or running into supply issues. The only downside is probably kidney ramifications, but any patient in that situation would likely be monitored for any such severe reaction. We won't know conclusively whether or not it works for a year, but it seems like a low risk to try, relative to the ramifications of being in an ICU with COVID19.

 

A therapy which is effective at recovering only 10% more patients today is worth thousands or millions of lives more than a 100% effective therapy after the pandemic is over.
 

[Dorian Grey]

High hemoglobin predicts pneumonia / advanced disease?  

 

https://www.scienced...00330152135.htm

 

Experimental AI tool predicts which COVID-19 patients develop respiratory disease

 

An artificial intelligence tool accurately predicted which patients newly infected with the COVID-19 virus would go on to develop severe respiratory disease, a new study found.

 

Published online March 30 in the journal Computers, Materials & Continua, the study also revealed the best indicators of future severity, and found that they were not as expected.

 

"The researchers were surprised to find that characteristics considered to be hallmarks of COVID-19, like certain patterns seen in lung images (e.g. ground glass opacities), fever, and strong immune responses, were not useful in predicting which of the many patients with initial, mild symptoms would go to develop severe lung disease. Neither were age and gender helpful in predicting serious disease, although past studies had found men over 60 to be at higher risk."

 

"Instead, the new AI tool found that changes in three features -- levels of the liver enzyme alanine aminotransferase (ALT), reported myalgia, and hemoglobin levels -- were most accurately predictive of subsequent, severe disease"

 

"higher levels of hemoglobin, the iron-containing protein that enables blood cells to carry oxygen to bodily tissues, were (edit) linked to later respiratory distress"

 

----------------------------

 

They admit the hemoglobin issue might actually be unreported smoking, as smokers tend to have high hemoglobin.  Apparently smokers were excluded from the study, but some of the patients may have been fibbing about their smoking status.  Two of them had stated they were X-smokers, but apparently when they quit was not known?  

 

This (hemoglobin) may tie in with the higher disease and death rate in males, as males tend to have higher hemoglobin than women & children whether they smoke or not.  This may be important to those who have recently quit smoking in order to try and survive COVID, as a blood donation will instantly correct their hemoglobin elevation, and if they can stay clean, hemoglobin should not return to the higher than average hemoglobin typically seen in smokers. The hemoglobin elevation is due to carbon monoxide in the smoke.  Quit smoking, & hemoglobin will hang high for many months.  Quit smoking & donate blood, & you're instantly out of the high hemoglobin group.  

 

Whether you smoke or not, easiest way to lower hemoglobin is whole blood donation.  I'm a frequent flyer down at the blood bank, so I'm there dudes!  Walk in high, walk out low!  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 31 March 2020 - 02:59 AM.

[Robert Magnuson]

"The only downside is probably kidney ramifications" According to Vitamin C expert Dr. Thomas Levy (see his videos on YouTube), Vitamin C does not cause kidney stones. In general, he says, it instead cures kidney stones. But the rare person who has a problem with Vitamin C and kidney stones is getting too much calcium, according to Dr. Levy. Remember, too, that Linus Pauling cured himself of "incurable" (according to his doctors) kidney disease with high dose Vitamin C.

 

We have been splattering IV Vitamin C injections for covid-19 to every news site that will accept news tips, and with emails to a great many others, for weeks. Finally, a petition to demand its use. To date, if someone goes into the hospital with any kind of viral pneumonia, there is no viable treatment -- except for Vitamin C injections and they are rarely administered. If only they could become common place, many lives could be saved.

 

I get the sense that Big Pharma would love to see the billions of people on our planet eager to line up for a covid-19 vaccination. I prefer Liposomal Vitamin C, which is as good as injections if taken often enough (again, refer to Dr. Thomas Levy, but he prefers injections and Liposomal C for critical cases).  

[Kalliste]

 

 

Italy Finally Starts Mass Treatment with Hydroxychloroquine

March 29, 2020 10:40 pm 4

 

 

Doctors in Italy have finally began widely prescribing hydroxychloroquine in certain combinations in Rome and the wider region of Lazio with a population of around six million.

According to Corriere della Sera, a well known Italian daily newspaper, Dr. Pier Luigi Bartoletti, Deputy National Secretary of the Italian Federation of General Practitioners, explains that every single person with Covid-19 that has early signs, like a cough or a fever for example, is now being treated with the anti-malaria drug.

The drug “is already giving good results,” Bartoletti says while Malaysia reveals they have been using it since the very beginning. Bartoletti further adds that the drug:

“Must be used with all the necessary precautions, it must be evaluated patient by patient. It can have side effects. But those that take it are responding really well. 

 

We have just understood that the virus has an evolution in two phases and that it is during the second phase, after a few days (about a week), that the situation can suddenly, in 24 or 48 hours, worsen and leads to respiratory failure requiring intensive care.

 

The results that we are starting to accumulate suggest that hydroxychloroquine administered early, gives the possibility of avoiding this evolution in a majority of patients and is also helping us to prevent hospitals from filling up.”

Incredible. What is more incredible are the statements of Professor Christian Perronne, Head of the Infectious Diseases Department at the Garches University Hospital, made in an interview with a French weekly magazine.

Referring to the European Discovery trial in which UK is taking part with only 800 patients, Perronne says:

“I refused to participate because this study provides for a group of severely ill patients who will only be treated symptomatically and will serve as control witnesses against four other groups who will receive antivirals. It is not ethically acceptable to me.

We could perfectly well, in the situation we are in, evaluate these treatments by applying a different protocol. In addition, the hydroxychloroquine group (which was added to this study at the last minute), should be replaced by a hydroxychloroquine group plus azithromycin, the current reference treatment according to the most recent data.

Finally, the protocol model chosen will not provide results for several weeks. Meanwhile, the epidemic is galloping. We are in a hurry, we are at war, we need quick assessments.”

America is to start yet another study which is to take one month even while one thousand people or more are dying worldwide today. In Italy however doctors are finally not waiting anymore with Perronne saying:

“Even though the overwhelming evidence from large randomized studies is still lacking, I am in favor of a broad prescription for the following reasons:

1. We have a large body of evidence showing that in vitro hydroxychloroquine blocks the virus. We also have several clinical results indicating that this product is beneficial if administered early and we have no mention that it harms or is dangerous in this infection (only one study, poorly detailed, Chinese, on 30 patients with control group, did not observe any benefits but also no harmful effects). What is the risk of administering chloroquine straight away: nothing!

 

2. This drug is very inexpensive 3. It is well tolerated in long-term treatment. Personally, I have successfully used it clinically in the chronic form of Lyme disease for 30 years at a dose of 200 mg or even 400 mg/day.

I and hundreds of other doctors are able to judge its excellent tolerance in humans. The main contraindications are severe retinal and unbalanced heart disease.

Cardiovascular events remain exceptional if care is taken: to proscribe self-medication – to check with the elderly taking a lot of drugs that there are no drug interactions (with long-term diuretics in particular) and that the rate of blood potassium is within the norm.

Apart from these precautions, the undesirable effects are minor. They are even more so as the treatment is short, which is the case against Covid-19.

It would therefore be wise to produce hydroxychloroquine in very large quantities without further delay, to make it easily accessible to infected people…

I note that Italy has just authorized the wide distribution of hydroxychloroquine on medical prescription from the start of the infection and that other countries are preparing to do the same. What are we waiting for? To have more dead?”

Incredibly the doctor says in regards to this European study for which we have to wait six weeks (and as a note all these quotes are from a rough translation):

“There will be nothing to hope from this study concerning hydroxychloroquine is administered too late. The protocol indicates that the product can be given only if the oxygen saturation of patients is less than 95%, that is to say patients with a massive oxygen supply or who must be put on artificial ventilation. This is not the right indication.”

As the doctor said above, treatment needs to be given early to stop the second phase from kicking in as that is what is causing hospitalization and in some cases even death.

Quite interestingly, now that they have began treatment, Corriere della Sera has just tweeted: “Contagions in decline in Lombardy.”

So hopefully UK, US and other countries will now learn from Italy and get this early treatment out there before deaths reach Italy levels or even more for USA as they will if people are not treated, but with early treatment this should be contained as in South Korea and many other countries where they have been giving early treatment from nearly the very beginning

 

[Kalliste]

I plan on doing the titiration until bowel tolerance with C-vitamin, which may take me to the 200g day dosing. Will that make my kidneys explode? I don't know but it might be the difference between crawling to the overburdened hospital where I will be exposed to the other twelve strains of the virus plus whatever meningitis or dengue fever is flying around that crazy Place. 

 

Also got

Melatonin

MitoQ

Green tea

Potassium

 

Have made 35 blood donations and I smoke sometimes so hopefully I will get best of both Worlds of lowered IL 6 from habitual smoking + lowered iron/ferritin/HB

 

The UVB lamp is shining around the Clock. better not get melanoma next year.  

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[Rays]

1000mg is somewhat high, but if you were taking a lower dose prophylactically (say 100s of mg up to 500mg) I don't think that would be an issue.  And if you actually got sick, taking 1,000mg/day for the 2 weeks that you might be seriously sick shouldn't be an issue.

 

The label on the NOW foods Quercetine with Bromelain suggests 2 servings a day of 800mg Quercetine each. Would you consider that too high?

 

https://www.nowfoods...in-veg-capsules

[resveratrol_guy]

...

 

I'm very happy to hear that someone on the front lines has finally realized that we need to follow the information gradient toward progressively greater enlightenment, and stop worrying about finding global information maxima before doing anything at all.

 

I'm also pleased to know that they're doing the right thing by attempting to intervene early in the course of disease. Whether or not the protocol is effective, it seems from my own reading that it's not particularly so with severe patients. Taking the cautious step of offering novel treatments only to the sickest patients is sometimes counterproductive, in that it can end up killing a drug that could be pivotal if administered early. There are surely other tragic examples in the pharmaceutical graveyard.

 

My only hope is that someone can reach these folks and recommend an additional treatment arm with appropriate zinc supplementation (and perhaps potassium, vitamin C, or other compounds that have been crowdsourced here). Sad to say, they have plenty of patients from which to gain statistical significance across a variety of therapies.

[resveratrol_guy]

As to vitamin C and kidney issues, my only point was that it can inhibit excretion of waste products. I see no theoretical reason why, being an acid, it should support the formation of kidney stones. Inhibited clearance is a reversible condition which is a minor concern for a patient primarily surviving on liquid calories anyway. I have no problem with offering consenting patients the opportunity to try megadose IV vitamin C.

[resveratrol_guy]

Apologies if this has been posted already. I personally can't keep up with the information storm.

There is a strong (p < 1%) correlation between countries which have longstanding BCG tuberculosis vaccine programs for babies and those which have markedly lower expansion rates of COVID19 infection, even after correcting for wealth-per-capita. There is also, at least, a reasonable theoretical basis for the hypothesis of a causative relationship, namely that the vaccine seems to confer cross-immunity to some other respiratory diseases: "Additionally, a study in Guinea-Bissau found that children vaccinated with BCG were observed to have a 50% reduction in overall mortality, which was attributed to the vaccine’s effect on reducing respiratory infections and sepsis."

The vaccine is cheap and has a well documented and generally tame side effect history. The worst risk seems to be rare infective issues (as it's a live attenuated bacterium), which can be easily detected and treated.

 

If the causation hypothesis is bunk, then you end up with partial immunity to TB and said other diseases.

To get the paper, you need to use the black magic of Sci Hub:

Go to https://sci-hub.tw

Search for:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.24.20042937v1

Click "Download PDF" at right.
 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 31 March 2020 - 11:41 AM.