3083 replies to this topic

[BlueCloud]

If this study has not been subsequently discredited, the carbon monoxide inhaled due to smoking cigarettes is anti-inflammatory by inhibiting production if IL-12. That's one possible mechanism.

 

https://www.scienced...60103084934.htm

 

 

... Also smoking induces expression of ACE2 in lung cells, with possible mixed effects.

 

 

Well that's bad news then. If it was the nicotine, there could be a use for it under the form of nicotine patches or chewing-gums, even for the elderly. But smoke...

[Hebbeh]

Here is a short Reddit thread including some guy who has been taking quercetin, EGCG, and zinc. Apparently he was aware of this approach several weeks ago, which I find impressive. It gives some idea of the issues that he's encountered, none of which particularly concerning (except for the part about the woman who perhaps died of COVID19 right in front of him). One consideration is just to avoid taking zinc on an empty stomach. Personally, I pour out the powder from the caplet into a bottle of juice, shake vigorously, then drink. (It's not particularly hydrophilic, which is challenging.) But if you're not a fan of carbosis, I suppose you could dissolve it in olive oil.

 

I work at a high risk job at the moment(pizza delivery). For the past 5 days I have been taking 1000 mg of Quercetin and 30 mg of Zinc before work each day

 

 

The concerning issue is somebody potentially with COVID-19 while experiencing symptoms including cough continuing to work in the food service industry and exposing how many hundreds of customers not even including exposing coworkers who are handling the food.  How many has he selfishly exposed and how many of those will go on to expose additional people and ultimately, how many will his selfishness end up killing?  Yeah, I know, he "needs" the paycheck.  But, of course, that is exactly what unemployment and stimulus checks are for... to avoid this situation.  And why "stay at home" and "social distancing"  orders are necessary... to protect us from this element because some will not make the effort or sacrifice for the greater good.

 

There was a letter to the editor of the local paper just today how an individual went for takeout and while waiting, realized none of the 3 employees were wearing masks or gloves as well as none of the other waiting customers wearing masks in spite of the governors order to not appear in public without some kind of mask or face covering.  Same as half the people at the supermarket.  That's why this is going to stay with us... sabotaging everybody else's sacrifices.

[lancebr]

The concerning issue is somebody potentially with COVID-19 while experiencing symptoms including cough continuing to work in the food service industry and exposing how many hundreds of customers not even including exposing coworkers who are handling the food.  How many has he selfishly exposed and how many of those will go on to expose additional people and ultimately, how many will his selfishness end up killing?  Yeah, I know, he "needs" the paycheck.  But, of course, that is exactly what unemployment and stimulus checks are for... to avoid this situation.  And why "stay at home" and "social distancing"  orders are necessary... to protect us from this element because some will not make the effort or sacrifice for the greater good.

 

There was a letter to the editor of the local paper just today how an individual went for takeout and while waiting, realized none of the 3 employees were wearing masks or gloves as well as none of the other waiting customers wearing masks in spite of the governors order to not appear in public without some kind of mask or face covering.  Same as half the people at the supermarket.  That's why this is going to stay with us... sabotaging everybody else's sacrifices.

 

I noticed that one poster on that reddit made the following statement:

 

"Very high doses might cause kidney damage"

 

Is there any thing to back that statement up, and if so then what is the high dose amount that might

possibly damage the kidneys?

Edited by lancebr, 14 April 2020 - 07:29 PM.

[lancebr]

So if this is correct about the half-life of Quercetin then we would only need to supplement it

about twice a day.

 

"Human subjects can absorb significant amounts of quercetin from food or supplements, and elimination

is quite slow, with a reported half-life ranging from 11 to 28 h (Manach et al., 1998; Erlund et al., 2000;

Goldberg et al., 2003; Egert et al., 2008)"

 

https://www.nature.c...cles/ejcn201091

https://doi.org/10.1.../ajcn/81.1.230S

https://doi.org/10.1...7/s002280000197

https://doi.org/10.1...9120(02)00397-1

https://doi.org/10.1...3/jn/138.9.1615

 

It also goes on to say that....."A high amount of absorbed quercetin is extensively metabolized and eventually

eliminated by the lungs"

 

This study is entitled:

 

Carbon dioxide is the major metabolite of quercetin in humans

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...ubmed/11584085/

 

 

Edited by lancebr, 14 April 2020 - 08:20 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

Interesting about the half life of Q at 11-28 hr.  Wikipedia has a dramatically lower 1-2 hr.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/Quercetin

 

"The bioavailability of quercetin in humans is low and highly variable (0–50%), and it is rapidly cleared with an elimination half-life of 1–2 hours after ingesting quercetin foods or supplements.^[16] Following dietary ingestion, quercetin undergoes rapid and extensive metabolism that makes the biological effects presumed from in vitro studies unlikely to apply in vivo.^["

 

^{It may be that the metabolites persist for 11-28 hrs.}  

^"In rats, quercetin did not undergo any significant phase I metabolism.^[19] In contrast, quercetin did undergo extensive phase II (conjugation) to produce metabolites that are more polar than the parent substance and hence are more rapidly excreted from the body. The meta-hydroxyl group of catechol is methylated by catechol-O-methyltransferase. Four of the five hydroxyl groups of quercetin are glucuronidated by UDP-glucuronosyltransferase. The exception is the 5-hydroxyl group of the flavonoid ring which generally does not undergo glucuronidation. The major metabolites of orally absorbed quercetin are quercetin-3-glucuronide, 3'-methylquercetin-3-glucuronide, and quercetin-3'-sulfate.^[19][20]"

 

Wonder if the metabolites are what provide the benefit?  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 14 April 2020 - 08:48 PM.

[DanCG]

I would always recommend anti-agingfirewalls.com, but readers of this thread should be especially interested in the latest post, in which 90 year old Vincent Guiliano addresses the question, “Did I have a Covid-19 infection?” He was never tested, but from his account, he might well have. At least he had some sort of viral infection with an X-ray showing pneumonia.

 

Since COVID-19 was not expected at the time, he was treated the way viral pneumonia is often treated: azithromycin + Cefdimir.

 

As it turns out, he has been taking hydroxychloroquinine, 200 mg every other day for years. He did not say why. He has never mentioned that on his blog before, to my knowledge.

 

He cited some evidence re the cytokine storm in COVID-19 infections. He speculated that the anti-inflammatory herbal mixture that he developed may have helped.

 

He did not mention the other things he takes, but he has described his stack in detail in a post last year. He regularly supplements with: vitamin C, Astragalus root, Aswaghanda, zinc, copper, fish oil, resveratrol, green tea extract (EGCG), quercetin and bromolain, turmeric, vitamin D, stinging nettle (Urtica), melatonin, milk thistle (silymarin). There are others, these are just the ones that I remember to have been directly discussed in this forum, or mentioned in references that have been linked.

 

He’s been doing this all along for anti-aging and general health reasons. He made no mention of changing his routine during the illness.

Yeah, it is a long list. But, hey, the guy is 90 years old and doing alright. And if you read his blog, you know that his mind works well and he knows what he is doing.

 

Edited by DanCG, 15 April 2020 - 12:21 AM.

[FSL]

"One of the mechanisms by which flavonoids exert their antioxidant activity is via the chelation of redox-active transition metals, which are known to catalyze many biological processes leading to the production of free radicals. The essential sites for metal chelation are hydroxyl groups, and the most suitable cations for chelation are Fe(II), Fe(III), Cu(II) and Zn (II) as they have high charge density, stimulating the interaction with the phenoxide groups that have a high negative charge density."

 

This is from the introduction section of the following article:

 

"A simple liposome assay for the screening of zinc ionophore activity of polyphenols

https://daneshyari.c...iew/1183533.pdf"

 

There is a similar full article in page 187 of the following Doctor's Thesis (note it is about 34MB with 267 pages):

 

"DIETARY POLYPHENOLS DISPLAY ZINC IONOPHORE ACTIVITY AND MODULATE ZINC SIGNALING IN HEPATOCARCINOMA CELLS

Husam Dabbagh Bazarbachi

http://www.tdx.cat/b...48/1/Tesis .pdf"

 

Page 229 is interesting in that it compares the zinc chelating strength and ionophore activity of Clioquinol and various polyphenols.

 

Edited by FSL, 15 April 2020 - 01:37 AM.

[lancebr]

It appears that this Covid 19 virus not only attacks the ACE2 receptors but also seems to attack the T-Cells like HIV does.

 

https://www.scmp.com...ting-protective

 

https://www.news-med...t-like-HIV.aspx

 

"Surprisingly, the team has found that when the coronavirus and the T cell came into contact with each other, the T cell

became prey to the coronavirus, wherein a structure in the spike of the coronavirus triggered the attachment of a viral

envelope and the cell membrane. After, the genes of the virus entered the T cell and overwhelmed it, took it

hostage, and deactivated its ability to protect the body."

 

https://www.nature.c...?ref=tokendaily

 

"Krumholtz, who organized a meeting of cardiologists to discuss COVID-19 this week, said the infection can cause damage

to the heart and the sac that encases it. Some patients develop heart failure and/or arrhythmias during the disease’s acute phase.

Heart failure weakens the organ, though it can regain much of its strength with medications and lifestyle changes. Still, former

COVID-19 patients can become lifelong cardiology patients."

 

 

Edited by lancebr, 15 April 2020 - 02:18 AM.

[aim1]

I wish someone could explain the over the top negativity to the only treatment that has so far proven to be effective.
I know if am diagnosed, I would begin using the hydroxychloroquine protocol as soon as possible.

https://www.brisbane...JTPWBlayD8qLXZQ

[resveratrol_guy]

It appears that this Covid 19 virus not only attacks the ACE2 receptors but also seems to attack the T-Cells like HIV does.

 

https://www.scmp.com...ting-protective

 

https://www.news-med...t-like-HIV.aspx

 

"Surprisingly, the team has found that when the coronavirus and the T cell came into contact with each other, the T cell

became prey to the coronavirus, wherein a structure in the spike of the coronavirus triggered the attachment of a viral

envelope and the cell membrane. After, the genes of the virus entered the T cell and overwhelmed it, took it

hostage, and deactivated its ability to protect the body."

 

https://www.nature.c...?ref=tokendaily

 

"Krumholtz, who organized a meeting of cardiologists to discuss COVID-19 this week, said the infection can cause damage

to the heart and the sac that encases it. Some patients develop heart failure and/or arrhythmias during the disease’s acute phase.

Heart failure weakens the organ, though it can regain much of its strength with medications and lifestyle changes. Still, former

COVID-19 patients can become lifelong cardiology patients."

 

It does, of course, have essentially the same Spike protein AKA GP120 in HIV, so we shouldn't be too surprised that it behaves something like HIV.

 

The lasting organ damage is a worrisome issue, which has been reported at least once in a patient who did not even progress to ARDS. Most of it seems to center on the liver (more repairable) and heart and lungs (less reparable, maybe moreso with stem cells).

 

I am somewhat heartened by my previous conversations with stem cell clinicians (American MDs) who informed me that roughly 90% of IV hematopoietic stem cells end up settling in the lungs. This isn't too helpful if you're trying to treat some other organ, but it's convenient if you're attempting to form new alveoli, or repair existing ones, to compensate for fibrosis.

 

But all of this is rather beside the point. The real question, which has not yet been answered satisfactorily, is whether or not COVID19 forms reservoirs in the body like HIV. It's one thing to destroy T cells that can be gradually replenished over time. It's entirely another thing to hang out and continue to destroy them, especially pursuant to nothing more than a mild bout of illness.

 

Thus far, the South Korean numbers indicate that about 1% of double-tested-negative former patients regress into a positive state. In and of itself, that's not particularly concerning, as it's still well below the test error threshold (even for a double test) and consistent with a small fraction of the population not forming or maintaining adequate antibody levels. However, we need to remember that it's possible to "cure" HIV for weeks, months, or even years following the initial fever. Meanwhile, PCR DNA of the blood will show low levels of the virus upwards of 50 copies per mL.

 

Throat swabs are notoriously inaccurate. Have we done blood tests or tissue biopsies just to double check for residual dormant virusses? Have we analyzed the lymphocyte recovery trajectory? Doing so seems so obvious, so I believe I'm being overly paranoid here. But it bothers me that thus far I've seen zero discussion of this in the media, mainstream or otherwise.
 

I note the mention of possible CD147 binding in the third article. It's not surprising to see a second receptor potentially involved, but I just mention it because thus far the story has focussed on ACE2.

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 15 April 2020 - 03:05 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

I wish someone could explain the over the top negativity to the only treatment that has so far proven to be effective.
I know if am diagnosed, I would begin using the hydroxychloroquine protocol as soon as possible.

https://www.brisbane...JTPWBlayD8qLXZQ

 

It may seem unconscionable but there is an enormous amount of money to be made from this pandemic.  Big Pharma & the vaccine manufacturers really don't want to see a cheap generic or combination of supplements turning out to be our salvation so they poo-poo anyone who even suggests they be tried.  

 

There are more & more reports of patients experiencing remarkable turnarounds with HCQ though; some overnight and some in just hours after their first dose.  I saw a democrat doctor met with Trump today to testify how HCQ saved her life with a dramatic & swift resolution of her disease after starting HCQ.  

 

Saw Tom Hanks & his wife were given Chloroquine (not HCQ) in Austrailia.  It's only a matter of time before the dam bursts with reports of success.  Stay healthy for another month and I'll bet HCQ will be available for all who want it.  

[resveratrol_guy]

On a positive note, ivermectin is looking good as well.

 

Early clinician report from Florida from Dr. Jean-Jacques Rajter and wife (in a cocktail, which the reporter assumes includes HCQ, azithromycin, and zinc):

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=6AJJIis8mfI

 

Deep dive into mechanism of action by Rizwan Hafeez:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=xhj6FWQgr38

 

See the comments section of this video for more anecdotal information. The video itself discusses an anecdote at 0:55:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=tW7XEX7uZCg

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 15 April 2020 - 03:42 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

Remarkable results simply giving nasal O2 & proning (lying on stomach) for patients initially thought to be ready for a vent being reported in the field.

 

https://www.yahoo.co...-191511642.html

 

"50 patients who arrived with low oxygen levels between 69 and 85% (95 is normal). After five minutes of proning, they had improved to a mean of 94%. Over the next 24 hours, nearly three-quarters were able to avoid intubation; 13 needed ventilators. Proning does not seem to work as well in older patients"

 

"The first patient to rest on it arrived with oxygen saturation in the 40s, breathing rapidly and with an abnormally fast heartbeat, he said. After the patient was given oxygen through a nasal cannula — clear plastic tubes that fit into the nostrils — Levitan helped her to lie face down on the massage table. The oxygen level in her blood climbed to the mid-90s"

 

-----------------------

 

Oxygen Saturation in the 40s raised into the 90s just by nasal O2 & proning? Something to remember! The massage table mentioned was a "pregnancy massage mattress" with cut-outs to allow the chest to expand.  You can fashion something similar with rolled up towels under your shoulders (aka "chest rolls") at home.  All you'd need to add would be an oxygen tank prescribed by your GP and you're good to go recovering at home.  

 

I've got an oxygen saturation monitor I bought for $45 at Target, so I could justify being prescribed O2 over the phone.  Medical supply companies have lots of O2 tanks & regulators lying around.  Some might even deliver, otherwise you'd need a friend to pick it up for you.  

 

 

Edited by Dorian Grey, 15 April 2020 - 03:43 AM.

[lancebr]

On a positive note, ivermectin is looking good as well.

 

Early clinician report from Florida from Dr. Jean-Jacques Rajter and wife (in a cocktail, which the reporter assumes includes HCQ, azithromycin, and zinc):

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=6AJJIis8mfI

 

Deep dive into mechanism of action by Rizwan Hafeez:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=xhj6FWQgr38

 

See the comments section of this video for more anecdotal information. The video itself discusses an anecdote at 0:55:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=tW7XEX7uZCg

 

Have you found any information about what the dosing might be for Ivermectin?

 

I saw this video of a doctor who gave it to his patient but they never say at what dosage.

 

[BlueCloud]

I wish someone could explain the over the top negativity to the only treatment that has so far proven to be effective.
I know if am diagnosed, I would begin using the hydroxychloroquine protocol as soon as possible.

https://www.brisbane...JTPWBlayD8qLXZQ

Because the initial study done by its main proponent, Dr Raoult, had sloppy methodology and drew a lot of skepticism initially. But there are other studies being conducted around the world right now on it. 

[Iporuru]

The FDA-approved gold drug Auranofin inhibits novel coronavirus (SARS-COV-2) replication and attenuates inflammation in human cells

SARS-COV-2 has recently emerged as a new public health threat. Herein, we report that the FDA-approved gold drug, auranofin, inhibits SARS-COV-2 replication in human cells at low micro molar concentration. Treatment of cells with auranofin resulted in a 95% reduction in the viral RNA at 48 hours after infection. Auranofin treatment dramatically reduced the expression of SARS-COV-2-induced cytokines in human cells. These data indicate that auranofin could be a useful drug to limit SARS-CoV-2 infection and associated lung injury due to its anti-viral, anti-inflammatory and anti-ROS properties. Auranofin has a well-known toxicity profile and is considered safe for human use.

[Izan]

great find iporuru!

[resveratrol_guy]

Have you found any information about what the dosing might be for Ivermectin?

 

I saw this video of a doctor who gave it to his patient but they never say at what dosage.

 

 

Yep, that was the third video posted above. (I know, it's tough to keep up with the information influx.) One commentor said 200 ug per Kg of body weight. I assume daily but he didn't say, apart from indicating that it was the "standard dose" (for parasites?). That's all I know.
 

[BlueCloud]

Saw this today in article in french http://www.leparisie...020-8298963.php

 

Basically, 3 doctors from the east of France ( the worst hit region) seems to have found a particularly effective combination, inspired by Dr Raoult’s protocol but that doesn’t use HCQ. A combo of Azithromycine + Zinc + Montelukast.

Azithromycine for having antiviral effect ( even if its an antibacterial) as well as anti-inflammatory activity on pulmonary parenchymia. Montelukast for anti inflammatory effect on interstitial pulmonary tissues. The zinc is gluconate.

On most severe cases they added low doses of heparin to prevent thrombosis, and pulmonary embolism.

They started prescribing it to all their covid19 patients few weeks ago, and for the 1st time, none of their patients ever needed hospitalisation. 

It’s not a real study and has been only prescribed to a little over 200 patients so far, but it was worth mentioning. I couldn’t find any details about dosages.

Edited by BlueCloud, 15 April 2020 - 05:42 PM.

[Mind]

I wish someone could explain the over the top negativity to the only treatment that has so far proven to be effective.
I know if am diagnosed, I would begin using the hydroxychloroquine protocol as soon as possible.

https://www.brisbane...JTPWBlayD8qLXZQ

 

I hate to say it, but in the U.S. it seems the media just does not want to give the President any credit.

 

Most doctors have said that it "seems" the combination of hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, and zinc has shown positive results, but they are mostly subjective and working with very small datasets (number of cases). It is not a "proven" treatment yet.

Edited by Mind, 15 April 2020 - 07:37 PM.

[lancebr]

Yep, that was the third video posted above. (I know, it's tough to keep up with the information influx.) One commentor said 200 ug per Kg of body weight. I assume daily but he didn't say, apart from indicating that it was the "standard dose" (for parasites?). That's all I know.
 

 

I actually think that Ivermectin is looking to maybe be a good choice for treatment:

 

"In COVID-19 illness, critically ill patients with lung injury requiring mechanical ventilation may benefit from

administration of Ivermectin. We noted a lower mortality and reduced healthcare resource use in those treated

with ivermectin. These observations should not be considered definitive and allow for translation of a hypothesis

from bench to bedside which will require confirmation in a controlled clinical trial setting."

 

https://papers.ssrn....ract_id=3570270

 

As stated earlier the dosing for scabies treatment is 200uq per Kg of body weight at one dosage.  I would assume from

that one video of the doctor and older patient that when the doctor said he gave one dose he was maybe talking about

the same dosage as what would be for scabies.  This drug seems to be safe so I don't see how it would hurt to try it.

 

Now the main issue is getting access to it for home use since most doctors will not prescribe it since it is not FDA approved

for this type of treatment.  I do know that it is sold as a horse dewormer ($4.99 a tube for up to 1000lb treatment) and reading

from some Amazon reviews from the past few years people are using the horse type on themselves as treatment for

scabies or worms:

 

https://www.amazon.c...customerReviews

 

The tubes that are sold for horses actually doses out by 200uq so it would be very easy to dose it for a human by weight.

 

(Disclaimer: I'm not a doctor and not giving medical advice. I am not recommending or advising anyone to use a horse

dewormer...that would be each persons own decision).

 

 
 

Edited by lancebr, 15 April 2020 - 09:10 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

More on the smoking paradox...  

 

https://www.dailymai...oronavirus.html

 

Professor Francois Balloux, director of the genetics institute at University College London: "the evidence for a protective effect of smoking (or nicotine) against COVID-19 is bizarrely strong... actually far stronger than for any drug trialed at this stage"

 

Far stronger than for any drug trialed at this stage???  WTF!

 

"America's Centers for Disease Control of over 7,000 people who tested positive for coronavirus, found that just 1.3 per cent of them were smokers - against the 14 percent of all Americans that the CDC says smoke"

 

"Hospitals in China, the US, Germany and France have had hundreds of thousands of coronavirus patients but admitted disproportionately small numbers of smokers"

 

"Data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in the US showed that of around 7,000 COVID-19 patients, former smokers were more likely to be hospitalized or taken into intensive care than current smokers"

 

--------------------------

 

The ACE2 issue is driving me to madness!  It is known smoking increases ACE2 enzyme deployment:

 

https://www.medrxiv....3.18.20038455v1

 

"Current smoking also significantly increased ACE2 expression levels compared with never smokers"

 

The virus enters through the ACE2 RECEPTOR sites of lung cells, so more of these (ACE2 receptor sites) are bad, but the ACE2 enzyme itself is actually protective against inflammation and perhaps the "ground glass opacities" seen on CT that develop almost universally during the very early stages of COVID disease?  

 

We've simply got to get to the bottom of this.  What "mimic" might there be for smoking that might duplicate this "far stronger effect than any drug trialed to date"?  

 

Please help me!  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 16 April 2020 - 06:27 AM.

[lancebr]

More on the smoking paradox...  

 

https://www.dailymai...oronavirus.html

 

Professor Francois Balloux, director of the genetics institute at University College London: "the evidence for a protective effect of smoking (or nicotine) against COVID-19 is bizarrely strong... actually far stronger than for any drug trialed at this stage"

 

Far stronger than for any drug trialed at this stage???  WTF!

 

"America's Centers for Disease Control of over 7,000 people who tested positive for coronavirus, found that just 1.3 per cent of them were smokers - against the 14 percent of all Americans that the CDC says smoke"

 

"Hospitals in China, the US, Germany and France have had hundreds of thousands of coronavirus patients but admitted disproportionately small numbers of smokers"

 

"Data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in the US showed that of around 7,000 COVID-19 patients, former smokers were more likely to be hospitalized or taken into intensive care than current smokers"

 

--------------------------

 

The ACE2 issue is driving me to madness!  It is known smoking increases ACE2 enzyme deployment:

 

https://www.medrxiv....3.18.20038455v1

 

"Current smoking also significantly increased ACE2 expression levels compared with never smokers"

 

The virus enters through the ACE2 RECEPTOR sites of lung cells, so more of these (ACE2 receptor sites) are bad, but the ACE2 enzyme itself is actually protective against inflammation and perhaps the "ground glass opacities" seen on CT that develop almost universally during the very early stages of COVID disease?  

 

We've simply got to get to the bottom of this.  What "mimic" might there be for smoking that might duplicate this "far stronger effect than any drug trialed to date"?  

 

Please help me!  

 

I think that the increase of ACE2 by smoking is the reason why smokers do better.

 

This recent article talks about the ACE2 paradox:

 

"Given ACE2 itself is the gateway of SARS-CoV-2 entry into cells, how can the reduction in ACE2 levels in older persons

and those with CVD predispose for greater COVID-19 severity? To address this paradox, they suggest it is plausible that

greater expression of ACE2 leads to higher predisposition to incur COVID-19, citing preliminary epidemiologic data from

South Korea, “where the most population-wide testing has taken place”

 

"But, they say that severity of disease is affected by the reduction in ACE2 levels that occurs with ageing and cardiovascular

disease, which causes an upregulation of angiotensin II proinflammatory pathway: The increase in ACE2 levels with ACEI/ARB

treatment is more likely to be corrective to these changes. This is exploited with SARS-CoV-2 binding to ACE2, further reducing

ACE2 cell surface expression, upregulating angiotensin II signalling in the lungs, and yielding acute lung injury."

 

https://cardiacrhyth...evere-covid-19/
 

So if this is correct then we would want to increase ACE2, even though it might predispose us to incur Covid 19, it would protect us

more against the damaging inflammation of the lungs that seems to cause the death in this virus.

 

It's kinda of a catch 22 situation...do you raise ACE2 and have a higher predisposition of incurring Covid 19 but at the same time

give your body more ACE2 to hopefully protect from the damage to the lungs....or do you lower your ACE2 expression in the hope

not to even catch it, but if you do then take the chance of having a worse outcome in the end.

 

 

 

Edited by lancebr, 16 April 2020 - 07:14 AM.

[lancebr]

Yep, that was the third video posted above. (I know, it's tough to keep up with the information influx.) One commentor said 200 ug per Kg of body weight. I assume daily but he didn't say, apart from indicating that it was the "standard dose" (for parasites?). That's all I know.
 

 

After reading more of this paper it seems that they actually used a lower dose then what is used for scabies.

 

"We recorded 52 patients who received Ivermectin (150 mcg/Kg) once after mechanical ventilation was instituted"

 

So they only used 150 mcg per Kg once and for scabies you would usually use 200 mcg per Kg.  So it seems a lower

dose showed to work some against the virus....and this was on patients who were on mechanical ventilation.

 

https://papers.ssrn....ract_id=3570270

 

 

 

[Iporuru]

Smoking is Associated with COVID-19 Progression: A Meta-Analysis

 

Objective: To determine the association between smoking and progression of COVID-19. Design: A meta-analysis of 12 published papers. Data Source: PubMed database was searched on April 6, 2020. Eligibility criteria and data analysis: We included studies reporting smoking behavior of COVID-19 patients and progression of disease. Search terms included smoking, smoker*, characteristics, risk factors, outcomes, and COVID-19, COVID, coronavirus, sar cov-2, sar cov 2. There were no language limitations. One author extracted information for each study, screened the abstract or the full text, with questions resolved through discussion among both authors. A random effects meta-analysis was applied. Main Outcome Measures: The study outcome was progression of COVID-19 among people who already had the disease. Results: We identified 12 papers with a total of 9,025 COVID-19 patients, 878 (9.7%) with severe disease and 495 with a history of smoking (5.5%). The meta-analysis showed a significant association between smoking and progression of COVID-19 (OR 2.25, 95% CI 1.49-3.39, p=0.001). Limitations in the 12 papers suggest that the actual risk of smoking may be higher. Conclusions: Smoking is a risk factor for progression of COVID-19, with smokers having higher odds of COVID-19 progression than never smokers. Physicians and public health professionals should collect data on smoking as part of clinical management and add smoking cessation to the list of practices to blunt the COVID-19 pandemic.

[resveratrol_guy]

 

https://papers.ssrn....ract_id=3570270

 

As stated earlier the dosing for scabies treatment is 200uq per Kg of body weight at one dosage.  I would assume from that one video of the doctor and older patient that when the doctor said he gave one dose he was maybe talking about the same dosage as what would be for scabies.  This drug seems to be safe so I don't see how it would hurt to try it.

 

I think this says it all (as you pointed out in your followup post): "We recorded 52 patients (AS-7, EU-21, AF-3, NA-14, SA-7) who received Ivermectin (150 mcg/Kg) once after mechanical ventilation was instituted... Compared to 1,918 conventionally treated patients we observed a survival benefit for ivermectin (mortality rate 18.6% vs 7.7%; HR 0.18, 95% CI (0.07-0.48), log rank (Mantel-Cox) p<0.001). The hospital length of stay was 15.7 +/- 8.1 days vs 10.9 +/- 6.1 days, p<0.001 and intensive care unit length of stay 8.2 +/- 6.2 days vs 6.0 +/- 3.9 days, p<0.001 respectively."

 

So they gave them a single substandard dose, then mortality dropped by 58%. They also indicate that the length of hospital and/or ICU treatment dropped impressively, but that would be consistent with a higher survival ratio, so it adds essentially no information and thus doesn't suppress the P value any further. But P of 0.1% is already remarkable. Everything "needs more study", but this deserves more study!

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 16 April 2020 - 01:07 PM.

[resveratrol_guy]

 

We've simply got to get to the bottom of this.  What "mimic" might there be for smoking that might duplicate this "far stronger effect than any drug trialed to date"?  

 

Please help me!  

 

The oldest woman ever smoked from 21 to 119, but only about one cigarette a day. Hormesis is a wonderful thing!

 

Nicotine suppresses appetite, so in modest amounts, it thwarts the known biggest risk for death from COVID19, namely obesity.

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 16 April 2020 - 01:05 PM.

[resveratrol_guy]

I hate to say it, but in the U.S. it seems the media just does not want to give the President any credit.

 

As usual, you struck a raw nerve...

 

It's really unfortunate that he espoused so much enthusiasm for HCQ because that basically guaranteed that the mainstream media would do everything possible to discredit his narrative and transitively discredit him. (Wow, I used "mainstream media" and "narrative" in the same sentence! It's fun to channel an altright conspiracy theorist. But relax, I'm a political chameleon, changing shades based on the issue and the evidence instead of the jingoism.)

We would be better off if this had just started as a theory in a biohacker forum such as ours.

This isn't a theoretical problem. People may well be dying needlessly because we have hit pieces, like the one below, which "prove" that it's all bunk. It gives the impression that this is all just carnival barking as usual from our scientifically unsophisticated President. And it sort of was, but the fact is that (1) he made it available to patients in need and (2) it's certainly promising enough, in a proper cocktail, to justify doing so.

The article is typical of medical arguments on the left: months to years behind the leading theories and latest evidence, and emphatic about risks with no regard for the appalling deathrate statistics that we observe on exit from US hospitals. And heaven forbid we should cause a shortage for lupus patients in order to save vastly more desperate individuals.

 

It's just cringeworthy. It has the feel of a "health news" piece telling me why I need to eat whole grain bread and avoid saturated fat.

 

https://www.washingt...ts-consequences
 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 16 April 2020 - 02:02 PM.

[Hip]

Smoking May Protect Against Coronavirus 

 

Does smoking PROTECT against coronavirus? That was the amazing claim from David Hockney but multiple scientific studies now suggest he might be on to something 

 

"A leading infectious disease expert at University College London, Professor Francois Balloux, said there is 'bizarrely strong' evidence it could be true.

 

And data from multiple Chinese studies shows that COVID-19 hospital patients contained a smaller proportion of smokers than the general population (6.5 per cent compared to 26.6 per cent), suggesting they were less likely to end up in hospital. 

 

Another study, by America's Centers for Disease Control of over 7,000 people who tested positive for coronavirus, found that just 1.3 per cent of them were smokers - against the 14 per cent of all Americans that the CDC says smoke."

[bladedmind]

Curses!  More ambiguity on proper blood pressure medication.  

 

 

Calcium channel blocker amlodipine besylate is associated with reduced case fatality rate of COVID-19 patients with hypertension

 

The coronavirus disease (COVID-19) caused by the novel severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) has now spread to more than 100 countries posing as a serious threat to the public health on a global scale. Patients with comorbidity such as hypertension suffer more severe infection with elevated case fatality rate. Development of effective anti-viral drug is in urgent need to treat COVID-19 patients. Here we report that calcium channel blockers (CCBs), a type of anti-hypertension drugs that are widely used in the clinics, can significantly inhibit the post-entry replication events of SARS-CoV-2 in vitro. Comparison with two other major types of anti-hypertension drugs, the angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitors (ACEI) and angiotensin II receptor blockers (ARB), showed that only CCBs display significant anti-SARS-CoV-2 efficacy. Combined treatment with chloroquine and CCBs significantly enhanced the anti-SARS-CoV-2 efficacy. Retrospective clinical investigation of COVID-19 patients revealed that the CCB amlodipine besylate administration distinctly reduced the case fatality rate of patients with hypertension. Results from this study suggest that CCB administration for COVID-19 patients with hypertension as the comorbidity might improve the disease outcome.

https://www.medrxiv....4.08.20047134v1