3083 replies to this topic

[Dorian Grey]

How does this coincide with Lactoferrin and also Vit C which facilitates iron absorption and is also currently being administered to Covid-19 patients in New York NorthWell Hospitals?

 

From what I've seen all the iron chelators seem to be getting a lot of chatter as beneficial with COVID.  I got spooked off IP6, as early in this thread someone posted it had been found to help the HIV virus "stabilize its membrane".  

 

I'm taking (apo) lactoferrin myself, but if I take it too regularly I get a bizarre anal itch that about drives me to madness.  One cap every other day seems to be tolerable.  Curcumin & Quercetin also part of my daily stack.  I always take Vitamin-C on an empty stomach, as the increased absorption of dietary iron is most pronounced when C is taken with meals.  

 

Welcome to the thread fighter.  

[Dorian Grey]

Here's a link to the fiddling done with the Fauci's remdesivir trial:

 

https://clinicaltria...de#StudyPageTop

 

It was an "Adaptive" format trial from the start, so changing the parameters was allowed, but they really had to jigger the trial to get the result they wanted.  Here is the original trial proposal: 

 

https://clinicaltria...how/NCT04280705

 

They doubled the size of the trial, desperately trying to get a statistically significant mortality improvement, & when it didn't materialize they simply dropped mortality from the original objective.  If you look carefully it appears those who's liver enzymes reached 5X normal were excluded from the trial.  Remdesivir is known to stress liver (& kidneys) from previous compassionate use in COVID patients.  The Chinese/Lancet trial showed more died on remdesivir.  Were they not excluding patients with adverse reactions like Fauci appears to have done?  

 

I heard on a youtube (Highwire/Del Bigtree) they ran out of placebo due to the swelling trial and punted on it half way through.  

 

https://youtu.be/wpfxvXjAnvk?t=5401

 

Jump to the 1 hour 30 minute point (link above should start you there) to bypass the bloviating.  

 

I assume there won't be enough remdesivir for global distribution any time soon so a lot of hydroxychloroquine still being used outside the US.  It will be interesting to see how the case fatality rates compare.   Here's another look: 

 

https://docs.google....6N1aDjY/preview

 

at the chloroquine/hydroxychloroquine studies.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 03 May 2020 - 11:59 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Viruses mutate all the time. As long as key surface proteins are conserved between the mutations (which is the case so far with covid) you should be able to make an effective vaccine.
 
Keep in mind, we'd accept an imperfect partial vaccine.  Even something that gave you partial immunity, lessening the symptoms, would be of great value.
 
David Sinclair in an interview the other day (I think it's in this interview but haven't time to rewatch it at the moment) was optimistic about the prospects of a vaccine.  He's not a virologist but he's enough in the know to have a well informed opinion.

[Gal220]

I guess Naproxen might be a better choice than Tylenol for this virus:

 

Broad-spectrum antiviral activity of naproxen: from Influenza A to SARS-CoV-2 Coronavirus

 

https://www.biorxiv.....04.30.069922v1

 

Chris has the only other page I found on it - https://chrismasterj...hd.com/covid-19  

[joelcairo]

I guess Naproxen might be a better choice than Tylenol for this virus:

 

Broad-spectrum antiviral activity of naproxen: from Influenza A to SARS-CoV-2 Coronavirus

 

https://www.biorxiv.....04.30.069922v1

 

Here's another data point on Naproxen. This was a COVID-19-based analysis of genes co-expressed with ACE2 and drugs that act on them. I haven't previously heard of the top few drugs identified, but in the full breakdown (figure 4) it looks like Naproxen and apigenin are also candidates for COVID-19 treatment.

 

https://www.mdpi.com...15/12/4/404/htm

[Dorian Grey]

All well and good, hopefully you are right ! What would you recommend a senior to do for prevention?  If they had a fever?

 

We have to be careful about recommending therapies to new members, particularly regarding treatment of disease (fever).  We're not doctors, but simply researching & discussing findings we find intriguing for potential use ourselves.  

 

This is a big thread, but if you skim through it you may find some things you might be interested in discussing here, researching further on your own or asking your doc about. 

Edited by Dorian Grey, 04 May 2020 - 02:14 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

C3+ pepper Curcumin?  What's full stack ?!

 

My personal COVID stack (protocol) is Quinine (from tonic water), quercetin & curcumin, zinc, & lactoferrin, all in reasonable doses.  

 

I've got some famotidine I'll add if I get symptoms, & a lot of Vitamin-C to dose heavily if I get diagnosed.  

 

I'm sunbathing for Vitamin-D (& sulfate) and taking Vitamin-E for anticoagulation, & red blood cell membrane support.  

 

I have many reference links & detailed rationales in the earlier pages of this thread.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 04 May 2020 - 02:39 AM.

[Gal220]

Adding some links.

 

Healthy adults - sleep, exercise, multivitamin(I think LEF 2 a day is best with 2000iu D, 200mcg selenium, 25mg zinc, 500mg C) + LEF health booster(K+E) + whatever else like calc/mag, omegas/salmon/pills/cod oil(vit A), probiotics/fermented food

 

Seniors/unhealthy - same as above + add quercetin/C (250mg 2x daily) - Both preventative and inflammatory response. Seniors need digestive enzymes and collagen.  Link1, Link2, Link3, Link4

 

 

IF fever or other symptoms(as pointed out by LEF and others, early treatment is key)

-add zinc(how much 20mg?) to the quercetin(how much 1500mg?) - 500mg quercetin 3x with 20mg zinc on empty stomach (see quercetin links)

-add serrapeptase natto (how much?) - also needs an empty stomach, tricky - clear blood clots and thin mucus - Link1, Link2, Link3

-add allicin/garlic (vitamin shoppe has 6000 version) with each meal - nearly every wellness site

-add melatonin - Link1, Link2

-maybe chew some nicotine gum, naproxen , curcumin

 

-add Hospital if trouble breathing, make sure they know about proning.  Wonder how many deaths are just poor hospitals + vit D/zinc deficiency, would proning be a common treatment?

CPAP + proning - https://www.cnn.com/...-gbr/index.html

 

Appears  cpap is likely to spread the virus, something to be aware of..

 

[Corri]

Healthy adults - sleep, exercise, multivitamin(I think LEF 2 a day is best with 2000iu D, 200mcg selenium, 25mg zinc) + LEF health booster(K+E) + whatever else like calc/mag, omegas/salmon/pills/cod oil(vit A), probiotics/fermented food

 
For zinc, zinc orotate is more neutrally charged than other forms, which allows the zinc to easily pass through the cell membrane. This means you can get part of the benefit of a zinc ionophore like hydroxychloroquine or quercetin, without the side effects.
 
For extra virus killing you could add around 4 mg/day of iodine. People used to recommend 12 mg/day, but 4 mg/day would be safer, and since you have so many other nutrients that should be enough.

[lancebr]

 
For zinc, zinc orotate is more neutrally charged than other forms, which allows the zinc to easily pass through the cell membrane. This means you can get part of the benefit of a zinc ionophore like hydroxychloroquine or quercetin, without the side effects.
 

 

Are there any studies that actually show that zinc orotate passes through the cell membrane.

 

I remember reading that there are concerns about orotic acid promoting cancer:

 

https://efsa.onlinel....efsa.2009.1187

 

 

[Gal220]

 
For zinc, zinc orotate is more neutrally charged than other forms, which allows the zinc to easily pass through the cell membrane. This means you can get part of the benefit of a zinc ionophore like hydroxychloroquine or quercetin, without the side effects.
 
For extra virus killing you could add around 4 mg/day of iodine. People used to recommend 12 mg/day, but 4 mg/day would be safer, and since you have so many other nutrients that should be enough.

 

Quercetin by itself made a huge difference in DARPA's clinical trial involving physical duress. 45% of the placebo group got the flu, only 5 percent of the treated group.  It is an ACE2 inhibitor which is where the virus attacks.   Chris Masterjohn questions the plausibility of the zinc ionophore stopping the virus.  There is anecdotal evidence he is wrong, we will find out shortly, but either way, I looked and couldnt find anyone really touting zinc orotate as a possible solution.

There is some iodine suggested use out there, for front line workers as a mouthwash or nasal spray.  Chris suggests zinc and copper sprays in the same vein

[Corri]

Are there any studies that actually show that zinc orotate passes through the cell membrane.

 

I remember reading that there are concerns about orotic acid promoting cancer:

 

https://efsa.onlinel....efsa.2009.1187

 

No, but there are reports that lithium orotate is 20 times more effective than lithium carbonate, and potassium orotate can prevent idiopathic myocardial necrosis in hamsters, while potassium chloride is ineffective.

 

Orotic acid at 0.2% or more of food promotes the formation of tumours initiated by carcinogenic substances, while at 0.1% there was no observed effect. Adult food consumption is about 2 kg/day, so 0.1% of that is 2 grams/day. In 60 milligrams of zinc orotate, there are 10 milligrams of zinc and 50 milligrams of orotic acid, with is one part in 2,000 / 50 = 40 of the no observed effect dose, so there is a factor of forty safety margin.

[Corri]

Quercetin by itself made a huge difference in DARPA's clinical trial involving physical duress. 45% of the placebo group got the flu, only 5 percent of the treated group.  It is an ACE2 inhibitor which is where the virus attacks.   Chris Masterjohn questions the plausibility of the zinc ionophore stopping the virus.  There is anecdotal evidence he is wrong, we will find out shortly, but either way, I looked and couldnt find anyone really touting zinc orotate as a possible solution.

There is some iodine suggested use out there, for front line workers as a mouthwash or nasal spray.  Chris suggests zinc and copper sprays in the same vein

 

Rob Elens, a Dutch GP, successfully treated eight covid-19 patients with hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin and zinc orotate.

Studies show that zinc reduces the chance of getting an infection, and the duration of infection. In a trial by Ananda Prasad, the placebo group had an 88% chance of getting an infection in a year, and the zinc group had a 29% chance. In cold treatment trials, high dose zinc acetate longenzes shortened cold duration by an average of 40%.

The symptoms of zinc deficiency are similar to those of a coronavirus infection, ten symptoms of each are the following:
 

Coronavirus Symptom		Zinc Deficiency Symptom

Dry Cough			Chronic Cough
Nausea w/o vomiting		Nausea
Fever				Fever
Back pain (kidney?)		Chronic pain (low back, neck)
Abdominal discomfort		Abdominal cramping

Diarrhea			Loose stool
Loss of smell			Altered/loss of taste and smell
Loss of appetite		Anorexia (loss of appetite), weight loss
Fatigue				Apathy
Atrial fibrillation (new)	Atrial fibrillation

Intense exercise causes loss of zinc through sweating, and if those people aren’t replacing the lost zinc through supplementation or food, they can become zinc deficient. This may explain why some athletes are dying from coronavirus infections.

Zinc is good, zinc orotate should be better. Zinc orotate combined with quercetin or hydroxychloquine should be amazing.

Iodine works in a mouthwash, a spray, and a drink. The more iodine you drink, the less infection you will have, however high doses can lead to thyroid problems, and kill some good microorganisms, so that's why I recommended 4 mg/day.

[gamesguru]

Studies show that zinc reduces the chance of getting an infection, and the duration of infection

 

How did they calculate that?

 

What if I eat oysters?  Is this merely addressing a deficiency, or is it more mega-dosing quackery?

[Kalliste]

 

 

Abstract

The current COVID-19 pandemic is one of the most devastating events in recent history. The virus causes relatively minor damage to young, healthy populations, imposing life-threatening danger to the elderly and people with diseases of chronic inflammation. Therefore, if we could reduce the risk for vulnerable populations, it would make the COVID-19 pandemic more similar to other typical outbreaks. Children don’t suffer from COVID-19 as much as their grandparents and have a much higher melatonin level. Bats are nocturnal animals possessing high levels of melatonin, which may contribute to their high anti-viral resistance. Viruses induce an explosion of inflammatory cytokines and reactive oxygen species, and melatonin is the best natural antioxidant that is lost with age. The programmed cell death coronaviruses cause, which can result in significant lung damage, is also inhibited by melatonin. Coronavirus causes inflammation in the lungs which requires inflammasome activity. Melatonin blocks these inflammasomes. General immunity is impaired by anxiety and sleep deprivation. Melatonin improves sleep habits, reduces anxiety and stimulates immunity. Fibrosis may be the most dangerous complication after COVID-19. Melatonin is known to prevent fibrosis. Mechanical ventilation may be necessary but yet imposes risks due to oxidative stress, which can be reduced by melatonin. Thus, by using the safe over-the-counter drug melatonin, we may be immediately able to prevent the development of severe disease symptoms in coronavirus patients, reduce the severity of their symptoms, and/or reduce the immuno-pathology of coronavirus infection on patients’ health after the active phase of the infection is over.

https://www.tandfonl...85.2020.1756284

 

 

Nictoine gums could be a thing. Here is a pro Nicotine. 

 

OVID-19 is a disease caused by a novel coronavirus, SARS-CoV-2. On March 23 we presented evidence of a low prevalence of smoking among hospitalized patients with COVID-19 in China, and we were the first to establish the hypothesis that nicotine may be beneficial for COVID-19 and should be evaluated in clinical trials due to its anti-inflammatory properties. While in many cases the disease is mild, severe COVID-19 is characterized by a hyper-inflammatory response, commonly called cytokine storm, and is characterized by the release of pro-inflammatory cytokines that may lead to Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome and death. The cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway is an important immune-regulating system mediated by nAChRs that can control inflammation and function as an immunomodulator through a bi-directional communication between the immune and nervous systems. The clinical manifestations of cytokine storm observed in COVID-19 could be linked to a dysfunction of the cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway. At the same time, several patients experience neurological symptoms that could be explained by the invasion of the virus to the terminal area of afferent vagus fibers or the origin of the efferent vagus fibers, further dysregulation the inflammatory response. Anosmia has been experienced by several patients, a phenomenon that has been observed in patients with Parkinson’s disease and is caused by impaired cholinergic transmission. Thromboembolic complications, activation of platelets and endothelial damage with increased vascular permeability indicate ineffective control by the nicotinic cholinergic system. Considering that most of the manifestations of COVID-19 are linked to impairment of the nAChRs, we make the hypothesis that COVID-19 may be a disease of the nicotinic cholinergic system. We present regions with four or five amino acids homology between the SARS-CoV-2 and several neurotoxin molecules which act as competitive inhibitors in nAChRs. We propose that nicotine could be used therapeutically and should be urgently evaluated in clinical trials.

https://nemertes.lis...dle/10889/13431

 

 

 

Edited by Kalliste, 04 May 2020 - 01:05 PM.

[Gal220]

From what I've seen all the iron chelators seem to be getting a lot of chatter as beneficial with COVID.  I got spooked off IP6, as early in this thread someone posted it had been found to help the HIV virus "stabilize its membrane".  

 

 

Iron toxicity becomes more of problem as you get older, slowly builds up, possibly covid related. Most 50+ vitamins do not have iron.  Best way to get iron in the normal level is to give blood , there is a shortage now so its a good time.

[Gal220]

More skepticism for Remdesivir - pretty critical of the US response in general

[Kalliste]

Iron toxicity becomes more of problem as you get older, slowly builds up, possibly covid related. Most 50+ vitamins do not have iron.  Best way to get iron in the normal level is to give blood , there is a shortage now so its a good time.

 

Hyperferritinameia is a critical feature of this. Seeing as most DR's are pretty low-key on iron-toxicity knowledge it makes me wonder us supplement people could leapfrog them on this and DIY treat with some appropriate chelator, Aspirin, Inositol, green tea, curcumin all come to mind. 

 

 

Shoenfeld, professor at St Petersburg State University, Russia, said that the symptoms of COVID-19 are similar to that of hyperferritinaemia: “In 50 percent of cases, patients with exceptionally high ferritin levels die.”

 

https://www.drugtarg...evere-covid-19/

[Dorian Grey]

More skepticism for Remdesivir - pretty critical of the US response in general

 

Thanks for this Gal.  I was dumbstruck when I read the bottom line in this rosy review: "about 25% of patients receiving it have severe side effects, including multiple-organ dysfunction syndrome, septic shock, acute kidney injury and low blood pressure. Another 23% demonstrated evidence of liver damage on lab tests."

 

https://www.biospace...ooks-promising/

 

25% already experiencing major side effects like these with the limited compassionate use that's been going on?  YIKES!  I mentioned above in Fauci's clinical trial they state those with liver enzymes over 5X normal were excluded.  What I'm wondering is whether or not this refers to complications during the trial, and whether or not deleting these patients artificially improved the results.  Who has liver enzymes 5X normal going into a trial?  Is this common with COVID?  

 

Hopefully the fullness of time will show whether remdesivir is actually safer (and more effective) than HCQ, but they certainly didn't need to BAN HCQ from any use outside the hospital in the US.  Since remdesivir is an IV salvage med for hospitalized patients, this means we now have NO therapeutic at all to offer patients during the early phase of the disease.  

[Dorian Grey]

Hyperferritinameia is a critical feature of this. Seeing as most DR's are pretty low-key on iron-toxicity knowledge it makes me wonder us supplement people could leapfrog them on this and DIY treat with some appropriate chelator, Aspirin, Inositol, green tea, curcumin all come to mind. 

 

 

https://www.drugtarg...evere-covid-19/

 

Yes, I've been reading on "ferroptosis" as a potential role in increased complication & mortality in males.  Spidey Sense tingling!  

 

https://www.scienced...753332220303000

 

https://journals.plo...al.pone.0201369

 

https://www.tandfonl...27.2016.1187366

 

https://www.nature.c...1419-020-2298-2

 

Donated another pint down at the blood bank last week.  When it comes to ferritin, 50 is nifty.  Unfortunately our iron fortified (food) world results in most males accumulating iron as they age, with ferritin typically closer to 150 by middle age in males.  Women are saved from this fate by menstruation and children are typically low in iron due to rapid growth, and these groups are surviving COVID much better than the old men are.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 04 May 2020 - 02:51 PM.

[DanCG]

How did they calculate that?

 

 

If you were really interested in the answer to that question instead of making snarky potshots, you would follow the links and read the papers for yourself. 

Edited by DanCG, 04 May 2020 - 03:10 PM.

[gamesguru]

If you were really interested in the answer to that question instead of making snarky potshots, you would follow the links and read the papers for yourself. 

 

The original is a 2017 (now retracted) sciencedaily article.  Hard to find amongst dozens of links.

 

More hoaxsters promoting unverified claims.  It's not controlled science til you reproduce it a few times, at least.

 

Please don't go mega-dosing zinc or Vitamin D, there's no evidence it helps.

 

BMJ Open. 2020 Jan 23;10(1):e031662. doi: 10.1136/bmjopen-2019-031662.

Zinc acetate lozenges for the treatment of the common cold: a randomised controlled trial.
OBJECTIVE:

To examine a commercially available zinc acetate lozenge for treating the common cold.

DESIGN:

Randomised, double-blinded, placebo-controlled trial.

RESULTS:

There was no difference in the recovery rate between zinc and placebo participants during the 10-day follow-up (rate ratio for zinc vs placebo=0.68, 95% CI 0.42 to 1.08; p=0.10). The recovery rate for the two groups was similar during the 5-day intervention, but for 2 days after the end of zinc/placebo use, the zinc participants recovered significantly slower compared with the placebo participants (p=0.003). In the zinc group, 37% did not report adverse effects, the corresponding proportion being 69% in the placebo group.

CONCLUSIONS:

A commercially available zinc acetate lozenge was not effective in treating the common cold when instructed to be used for 5 days after the first symptoms. Taste has been a common problem in previous zinc lozenge trials, but a third of zinc participants did not complain of any adverse effects. More research is needed to evaluate the characteristics of zinc lozenges that may be clinically efficacious before zinc lozenges can be widely promoted for common cold treatment.

 

 

Zinc loz­enges did not shorten the dur­a­tion of colds

28.1.2020

Health news

 

Administration of zinc acetate lozenges to common cold patients did not shorten colds in a randomized trial published in BMJ Open.

Eight controlled trials previously reported that zinc lozenges reduced the duration of the common cold, but several other trials did not find benefit. Variation in the types of zinc lozenges has been proposed as one explanation for the divergence in the study findings. Many studies with negative findings used lozenges that had low doses of zinc or contained ingredients such as citric acid that bind zinc ions preventing the release of free zinc in the oropharyngeal region. Divergence in the study findings indicates that further research is needed to determine the conditions when zinc lozenges may be effective and the type and dosage of lozenges that may be optimal.

Edited by gamesguru, 04 May 2020 - 03:20 PM.

[lancebr]

Well for whatever reason it looks like Youtube put this video back after they took it down

for supposedly violating their terms.  Looks like they might be getting some push back. 

 

I don't understand why they took it down to begin with....she is a doctor who specialized in

the immune system and Vitamin D.....so she should know what she is talking about.

 

[Gal220]

Silent hypoxia, low O2 - I bet this becomes the new standard for testing at work - Link1 , Link2 , Link3

 

At least its an easy test , 30ish dollars for finger tester

[gamesguru]

Well for whatever reason it looks like Youtube put this video back after they took it down

 

YouTube does not put videos back up.  All decisions are final.

 

The evidence and meta-analyses do not support the idea high-dose, chronic Vitamin D improves mortality, bone health, or immune function[1].  She is presenting a santed view.  Correcting a deficiency is one thing, but clinging to mega-dosing as a cure-all is quite another

[lancebr]

YouTube does not put videos back up.  All decisions are final.

 

The evidence and meta-analyses do not support the idea high-dose, chronic Vitamin D improves mortality, bone health, or immune function[1].  She is presenting a santed view.  Correcting a deficiency is one thing, but clinging to mega-dosing as a cure-all is quite another

 

Well it must have not been to0 final because three days ago Youtube had their disclaimer that it was removed due

to violation of terms....and now it is back up at the exact same link address.

 

Based upon this article looks like Youtube does reinstate some of the videos they remove.....so not too final.

 

https://www.cnet.com...eos-reinstated/

 

LOL...her views are scientific and better explained than most

Edited by lancebr, 04 May 2020 - 04:50 PM.

[gamesguru]

LOL...her views are scientific and better explained than most

 

Better than Joe on the street, does that make it valid and free of bias?

 

If the video was re-instated, it was just to appease the masses.