3083 replies to this topic

[Gal220]

Well for whatever reason it looks like Youtube put this video back after they took it down

for supposedly violating their terms.  Looks like they might be getting some push back. 

 

Im thinking because she didnt put the FDA mother may I spiel up front and center - "This is not medical advice, consult your doctor ..." 

Ultimately she is recommending 4000IU a day or 60000 every 15 days. I was reading somewhere just recently it was better to take it daily.

 

Some long discussions about D - link

 

From Kesser

" don’t think there’s much of a risk of toxicity at 50 if you’re getting enough vitamin A and vitamin K2."

 

 

COVID -19 Ace2 discussion on limiting Vitamin D(1700IU), unfortunate we cant hear a rebuttal from Rhonda - link

 

 

Many people synthesize vitamin A poorly,  I would get some cod oil or liver in your diet if doing the 4000IU+ range.  And he should have mentioned Calcium/Magnesium

[Dorian Grey]

Gilead has yet to set a price for the coronavirus treatment remdesivir, but an influential drug pricing watchdog says it could be worth up to $4,500 per patient

 

https://www.yahoo.co...-163951174.html

 

I assume this does not include the cost of the hospital stay as remdesivir is an inpatient IV therapy.  A quick google looks like a non-ICU room runs around $25K/week.  Add in the cost of remdesivir and you're lookin' at around 30K for a one week remdesivir therapy.  

 

How much does hydroxychloroquine cost?  Probably less than $50-100 for the entire 5 day therapy.  We live in interesting times!  

[gamesguru]

Ultimately she is recommending 4000IU a day or 60000 every 15 days.

 

Nothing but the usual quackery parading under a guise of enlightened benevolence

[DanCG]

YouTube does not put videos back up.  All decisions are final.

 

The evidence and meta-analyses do not support the idea high-dose, chronic Vitamin D improves mortality, bone health, or immune function[1].  She is presenting a santed view.  Correcting a deficiency is one thing, but clinging to mega-dosing as a cure-all is quite another

The reference you linked is addressed to fractures and falls in the elderly. It says nothing about immune function. Were you being deliberately deceptive or did you just not read carefully?

[Gal220]

The reference you linked is addressed to fractures and falls in the elderly. It says nothing about immune function. Were you being deliberately deceptive or did you just not read carefully?

 

Im not sure about 4000IU to reach 40ng/mL(her goal), ultimately testing is required to be sure.  But I think you will get very little argument from anyone about a target of 40ng/mL.

 

The question that matters for COVID, does extra vit D increase ACE2 and ultimately lead to a worse outcome?  

[lancebr]

The reference you linked is addressed to fractures and falls in the elderly. It says nothing about immune function. Were you being deliberately deceptive or did you just not read carefully?

 

Excellent point
 

Edited by lancebr, 04 May 2020 - 05:32 PM.

[joelcairo]

Hyperferritinameia seems possible, but it would be a symptom of COVID-19 as it is for some other viruses such as dengue fever apparently. It's not clear that changing a healthy person's ferritin levels would make any difference once the virus hits.

[Gal220]

Mercola is hot after Coca Cola.  They are claiming this is primarily an insulin resistance problem - Link  , Link2

 

"'For decades, Coke, its competitors, and its surrogates like ILSI have trafficked in junk science, co-opted public officials, and bullied advocates like myself …' said Dr. Esperanza Ceron … 'But we won't be silenced. Too much is at stake' …"

Edited by Gal220, 04 May 2020 - 06:09 PM.

[gamesguru]

The reference you linked is addressed to fractures and falls in the elderly. It says nothing about immune function. Were you being deliberately deceptive or did you just not read carefully?

 

I cited it as such.  Beneath is a primer on how too much Vitamin D can be bad.  If you don't believe me just go on a zinc and Vitamin D rampage and see how you feel.

 

As I stated, correcting a deficiency differs from mega-dosing.  I've seen toxic effects at high enough levels.  And I haven't seen any studies ruling out that a moderate dose does just as well as a megadose, which is my sneaking suspicion.

[DanCG]

I cited it as such.  Beneath is a primer on how too much Vitamin D can be bad.  If you don't believe me just go on a zinc and Vitamin D rampage and see how you feel.

 

As I stated, correcting a deficiency differs from mega-dosing.  I've seen toxic effects at high enough levels.  And I haven't seen any studies ruling out that a moderate dose does just as well as a megadose, which is my sneaking suspicion.

Your post clearly attributed “and immune function” to the reference you cited. It’s there for all to see.

 

Everybody knows that hypervitaminosis D is a real thing.

 

While the paper you linked concluded that the high-dose intermittent supplementation was not beneficial for fractures, it did not allege any hypervitaminosis.

 

The video in question clearly emphasized correcting deficiencies. Whatever one might think of the proposed method of achieving it, the target blood levels are in line with guidance that has been discussed in numerous posts in this thread, if you have been paying attention. It is not quackery. No “cure all” was claimed.

 

I can agree, though, that regular low dose supplementation together with getting sun exposure would be my preferred way to achieve optimal D levels. Many people have not done this ahead of time, and the doctor’s point that D status should be tested and corrected is well taken.

[gamesguru]

Your post clearly attributed “and immune function” to the reference you cited. It’s there for all to see.

 

The video in question clearly emphasized correcting deficiencies.

 

I clearly criticized the idea it "improves mortality, bone health, or immune function".  I cited bone heath as one of the many things mega-doses aren't effective for.

 

I just wanted to make sure we were being careful about not pushing people in the direction of mega-dosing.

[Dorian Grey]

Hyperferritinameia seems possible, but it would be a symptom of COVID-19 as it is for some other viruses such as dengue fever apparently. It's not clear that changing a healthy person's ferritin levels would make any difference once the virus hits.

 

Both inflammation & infection cause sharp spikes in apoferritin, which is the bodies way of trying to mop-up any free iron floating around.  Attempting to lower this type of ferritin in the acutely ill wouldn't work.  

 

On the other hand, if this virus is liberating iron from hemoglobin or causing iron containing ferritin to spill its guts, iron chelators would prove invaluable.  A lot of iron is actually stored as ferritin in tissues, particularly the liver, kidney & heart; which seem to get walloped badly by COVID.  

 

Enter "ferroptosis", & you might find a run-away chain reaction that chelation might help.  

 

https://www.nature.c...1419-020-2298-2

 

Logically women (of child bearing age), children (and blood donors!) who have much lower iron profiles than seniors & men in general would have less of a predisposition to develop a run-away ferroptosis problem, and these are the folks we are seeing who survive COVID, often without even developing symptoms.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 04 May 2020 - 08:50 PM.

[gamesguru]

Both inflammation & infection cause sharp spikes in apoferritin, which is the bodies way of trying to mop-up any free iron floating around.  Attempting to lower this type of ferritin in the acutely ill wouldn't work.  

 

On the other hand, if this virus is liberating iron from hemoglobin or causing iron containing ferritin to spill its guts, iron chelators would prove invaluable.  A lot of iron is actually stored as ferritin in tissues, particularly the liver, kidney & heart; which seem to get walloped badly by COVID.  

 

Enter "ferroptosis", & you might find a run-away chain reaction that chelation might help.  

 

https://www.nature.c...1419-020-2298-2

 

Logically women (of child bearing age), children (and blood donors!) who have much lower iron profiles than seniors & men in general would have less of a predisposition to develop a run-away ferroptosis problem, and these are the folks we are seeing who survive COVID, often without even developing symptoms.  

 

yes, joelcairo, you can see the skepticism ship sailed long ago and he's just looking at every possible angle to confirm the involvement of iron as a cause

 

currently there is no compelling evidence to support the idea of iron being a major cause so he's just pulling weak associations out of thin air.  This level of retroactive rationalization is certainly impressive but does nothing to persuade the scientific community of its proactive truth

[joelcairo]

Let's try to keep things productive.

 

I generally agree with the idea that blood donation & mild chelation could be healthful in general. I just don't know if it would have any notable effect once the storm begins. Also it seems likely that do-it-yourself chelation would be far too weak to counter the effects of the virus. Perhaps a pharmaceutical iron chelator like Deferoxamine would be a possible emergency treatment.

[Dorian Grey]

More on the iron angle & viral infections: 

 

https://www.nature.c...1930?proof=true

 

Viral infection and iron metabolism Key Points

 

• The central role of iron in fundamental processes of cellular physiology is briefly summarized. These processes must be operational for efficient viral replication, and therefore cells that are replete in iron make good homes for viruses.

• Iron homeostasis in humans is outlined, and the action of the liver hormone hepcidin is described. Hepcidin maintains iron balance, and its synthesis is regulated by many proteins, one of which is HFE.

• Iron overload is a risk factor for severe disease in hepatitis C virus (HCV) infection. HCV itself manipulates cellular iron transport and influences hepcidin synthesis.

• In individuals infected with HIV-1, iron accumulation is associated with increased mortality. Iron accumulation in macrophages might favour virus replication, benefit secondary pathogens and lead to anaemia.

• The HIV-1 protein Nef and the human cytomegalovirus (HCMV) protein US2 target HFE and therefore regulate iron transport.

• New World haemorrhagic arenaviruses, canine and feline parvoviruses and mouse mammary tumour virus all use the host protein transferrin receptor 1 to gain entry to cells. In this way, these viruses infect activated, iron-acquiring cells, which can facilitate their replication.

• Limiting iron availability to infected cells by iron chelators curbs the growth of HIV-1, HCMV, vaccinia virus, herpes simplex virus 1 and hepatitis B virus in vitro. In patients who are infected with HCV, iron removal ameliorates disease.

• Together, these studies indicate that viruses directly manipulate iron homeostasis and that virally induced changes in iron transport are associated with altered disease states.

 

[lancebr]

Different treatments being tested to fight covid19:

 

Estrogen for men

 

Llama antibodies

 

https://www.islandpa...e242484581.html

[Gal220]

I generally agree with the idea that blood donation & mild chelation could be healthful in general. I just don't know if it would have any notable effect once the storm begins. 

 

I dont know if there is anything to the iron theory (it would explain why men are worse off) or not, but I agree, it would be best to get it under control before you get sick.  At least it is free to give blood.  Same idea for blood sugar, probably a good time to sell your Coca-Cola stock too.

 

If it turns out blood sugar is biggest problem, at least hospitals are well equipped to administer some insulin.

[gamesguru]

Years old evidence suggestive of a benefit of Agaricus fungus in this context.

 

Modulating immunoglobin production, including that of B cells and the innate immune system, is probably one of the most promising treatment methods that will never come to urgent bedsides.

 

I'm definitely including white buttons in my daily vegetable servings til this passes

 

Effect of mushroom Agaricus blazei on immune response and development of experimental cerebral malaria

Background

Cerebral malaria (CM) is debilitating and sometimes fatal. Disease severity has been associated with poor treatment access, therapeutic complexity and drug resistance and, thus, alternative therapies are increasingly necessary. In this study, the effect of the administration of Agaricus blazei, a mushroom of Brazilian origin in a model of CM caused by Plasmodium berghei, strain ANKA, was investigated in mice.

Methods

C57BL/6 mice were pre-treated with aqueous extract or fractions of A. blazei, or chloroquine, infected with P. berghei ANKA and then followed by daily administration of A. blazei or chloroquine. Parasitaemia, body weight, survival and clinical signs of the disease were evaluated periodically. The concentration of pro-and anti-inflammatory cytokines, histopathology and in vitro analyses were performed.

Results

Mice treated with A. blazei aqueous extract or fraction C, that shows antioxidant activity, displayed lower parasitaemia, increased survival, reduced weight loss and protection against the development of CM. The administration of A. blazei resulted in reduced levels of TNF, IL-1β and IL-6 production when compared to untreated P. berghei-infected mice. Agaricus blazei (aqueous extract or fraction C) treated infected mice displayed reduction of brain lesions. Although chloroquine treatment reduced parasitaemia, there was increased production of proinflammatory cytokines and damage in the CNS not observed with A. blazei treatment. Moreover, the in vitro pretreatment of infected erythrocytes followed by in vivo infection resulted in lower parasitaemia, increased survival, and little evidence of clinical signs of disease.

Conclusions

This study strongly suggests that the administration of A. blazei (aqueous extract or fraction C) was effective in improving the consequences of CM in mice and may provide novel therapeutic strategies.

 

 

The Mushroom Agaricus blazei Murill Elicits Medicinal Effects on Tumor, Infection, Allergy, and Inflammation through Its Modulation of Innate Immunity and Amelioration of Th1/Th2 Imbalance and Inflammation

Abstract

The medicinal mushroom Agaricus blazei Murill from the Brazilian rain forest has been used in traditional medicine and as health food for the prevention of a range of diseases, including infection, allergy, and cancer. Other scientists and we have examined whether there is scientific evidence behind such postulations. Agaricus blazei M is rich in the immunomodulating polysaccharides, β-glucans, and has been shown to have antitumor, anti-infection, and antiallergic/-asthmatic properties in mouse models, in addition to anti-inflammatory effects in inflammatory bowel disease patients. These effects are mediated through the mushroom's stimulation of innate immune cells, such as monocytes, NK cells, and dendritic cells, and the amelioration of a skewed Th1/Th2 balance and inflammation.

 

[Gal220]

Thailand medical news has all kinds of interesting tidbits

 

Patients usually have low potassium

 

Chinas herbal concoction 

 

T Cell depletion

 

Critical care guidelines

[bladedmind]

This was a nice place till that rude and arrogant person showed up a few days ago.   I suppose nothing can be done about it. 

[Dorian Grey]

This was a nice place till that rude and arrogant person showed up a few days ago.   I suppose nothing can be done about it. 

 

Ha-ha!  We all have crosses to bear on a global forum.  I was young once myself and perhaps a bit of a YOB.  Heard a lyric in a song by Sting (Englishman in New York): "Manners Maketh Man or so they say".  The wisdom of this saying is that people with good manners tend to have more credibility with others.  

 

We all live & learn.  

[DanCG]

This was a nice place till that rude and arrogant person showed up a few days ago.   I suppose nothing can be done about it. 

Attempts to engage this person and to encourage better behavior have failed. One thing this kind of person cannot stand is being ignored. That will be my policy going forward. Resist the temptation to respond, no matter how provocative he attempts to be. Do not even give him a negative rating. That only lets him know that his post was read and he got a reaction. It is unfortunate that this forum has to adopt the lesson that so many open blogs have learned—don’t feed the trolls.

[Gal220]

This was a nice place till that rude and arrogant person showed up a few days ago.   I suppose nothing can be done about it. 

 

You take the good with the bad, try not to fall into the trap of proving youre right and creating a bunch of useless back and forth. Post some links and let people decide for themselves.

 

I really appreciated the link to the CNN cpap story since I never visit the communist news network, i would have never found it.  My wife has a cpap so maybe really useful.

 

This blood clot / stroke issue is also really important, doctors best sells a natto-serra formula for a reasonable price. Hopefully everyone thinks about taking some action because your DR likely wont. 

 

Unfortunate there isnt concrete info on the vit D / Ace2 dosage as I think that is really important. Most of the bloggers who have thought about it are ok with at least 1000IU.

[Mind]

The current COVID-19 pandemic is one of the most devastating events in recent history. (from https://www.tandfonl...85.2020.1756284)

 

I just had to comment on the poor writing/framing from tandfonline.

 

I would have written, "the extreme governmental reaction to the novel coronavirus is one of the most devastating events in recent history."

 

As we see from various countries and states, complete shutdown and economic destruction were not necessary. Sweden, South Korea, Singapore, and many others took reasonable approaches and have as much or more success than other countries.

 

This particular intro was for an article on melatonin helping with COVID-19.

 

It is no surprise to me that we keep finding that basic nutrients help the COVID-vulnerable. Obese and elderly people have dis-regulated, damaged, and frail immune and organ systems. Anything that helps improve general health and rejuvenate should help COVID-vulnerable people.

 

This thread is full of studies and rationale for using basic nutrients like melatonin, vitamin C, vitamin D, potassium, zinc, etc...

 

It is time to take the link between vitamin D deficiency and COVID-19 seriously.

 

Hydroxychloroquine + Azithromycin + nutrients, still seems like a good strategy based upon the evidence thus far, but it seems there is a concerted effort to smear this particular treatment.

 

Instead remdesivir is touted after one study that showed no statistically relevant survival benefit.

[Corri]

This blood clot / stroke issue is also really important, doctors best sells a natto-serra formula for a reasonable price. Hopefully everyone thinks about taking some action because your DR likely wont. 

 

 

Another way to deal with the blood clotting in covid-19, is to take selenium, because selenium is known to have an anti-clotting effect.

 

Also, researchers from the University Of Surrey found that in Enshi, which has the highest selenium intake in China, the cure rate for covid-19 was almost triple the average for all the other cities in Hubei Province. In Heilongjiang Province, where selenium intake is among the lowest in the world, the death rate was almost five times as high as the average of all the other provinces outside of Hubei.

In studies, supplementation of between 50 and 400 mcg/day of selenium has been used. The average daily intake is around 60 mcg/day, and the tolerable upper intake level is 300 to 450 mcg/day. So 50 mcg/day is enough to boost selenium above the average intake, and will be safe long term and so should be used for prevention. The dose in the Naturelo One Daily multivitamin is around that. If someone actually gets the coronavirus, then they should take an additional 100 mcg/day, which is available in a selenium supplement.

[Gal220]

I would have written, "the extreme governmental reaction to the novel coronavirus is one of the most devastating events in recent history."

 

I would have like to seen it done on more of city by city basis, if your hospitals are overflowing like NYC, then I understand it.  I cant believe my state is still locked down, actually restrictions got worse. 

 

I dont watch the press conferences, but has Fauci, the CDC, or the President made any mention about the basic nutrients?  That will wind up being the biggest misstep.

[Daniel Cooper]

I would have like to seen it done on more of city by city basis, if your hospitals are overflowing like NYC, then I understand it.  I cant believe my state is still locked down, actually restrictions got worse. 

 

I dont watch the press conferences, but has Fauci, the CDC, or the President made any mention about the basic nutrients?  That will wind up being the biggest misstep.

 

 

The problem with city to city closings is that if you're a small down 50 miles outside of NYC and your restaurants are open while NYC's restaurants are closed, that's going to be a huge magnet pulling people out of NYC into your area, potentially (probably in fact) bringing covid with them.

 

There are no easy answers here. I could see locking down the entire state of New York based on their number of cases and deaths.  On the other hand, you've got places like Oregon that have had about 100 deaths and I believe are planning on being locked down until July 6th.  They are so sparsely populated I think you could have made a good case for no lock down at all. 

 

Some of these very lightly populated states with very limited numbers of deaths are hard to figure out what their rationale is.  You've got states with a low number of deaths who's restaurants have been closed for 5 or 6 weeks now whilst NYC's subways have been operating this entire time.  Not a lot of rhyme or reason in some of this.

[Gal220]

Well if you refresh the CDC site enough times, it asks you if you want to complete a survey.  Not sure how much good it will do, but mine is done.

[lancebr]

Another way to deal with the blood clotting in covid-19, is to take selenium, because selenium is known to have an anti-clotting effect.

 

Also, researchers from the University Of Surrey found that in Enshi, which has the highest selenium intake in China, the cure rate for covid-19 was almost triple the average for all the other cities in Hubei Province. In Heilongjiang Province, where selenium intake is among the lowest in the world, the death rate was almost five times as high as the average of all the other provinces outside of Hubei.

In studies, supplementation of between 50 and 400 mcg/day of selenium has been used. The average daily intake is around 60 mcg/day, and the tolerable upper intake level is 300 to 450 mcg/day. So 50 mcg/day is enough to boost selenium above the average intake, and will be safe long term and so should be used for prevention. The dose in the Naturelo One Daily multivitamin is around that. If someone actually gets the coronavirus, then they should take an additional 100 mcg/day, which is available in a selenium supplement.

 

Is there one form of selenium that is better than another?

 

I also know there are concerns about what form to take.
 

Edited by lancebr, 05 May 2020 - 09:06 PM.

[smithx]

I didn't notice the anti-clotting effect of selenium mentioned in any of your links. Do you know where you saw that and in what context? Thanks!

 

 

In studies, supplementation of between 50 and 400 mcg/day of selenium has been used. The average daily intake is around 60 mcg/day, and the tolerable upper intake level is 300 to 450 mcg/day. So 50 mcg/day is enough to boost selenium above the average intake, and will be safe long term and so should be used for prevention. The dose in the Naturelo One Daily multivitamin is around that. If someone actually gets the coronavirus, then they should take an additional 100 mcg/day, which is available in a selenium supplement.