3083 replies to this topic

[gamesguru]

Hydroxychloroquine in short supply, says FDA. 'Angry, disappointed and scared,' say lupus patients.

https://www.usatoday...eed/5245542002/

 

France bans use of hydroxychloroquine to cure coronavirus

https://www.politico...re-coronavirus/

 

This isn't about politics. Or at least, it shouldn't be. What works? There's a lot of doubt about the efficacy of HCQ in treating the symptoms of COVID. However, HCQ does have a well documented history of well-known and understood side-effects. Do these outweigh the potential (if any) benefits of HCQ? The consensus in France seems to be that no.

 

That's it. That's all there is. Drug recommendations shouldn't be uttered from the mouths of politicians without direct input from medical professionals.

[pamojja]

I imagine a small glass of vitamin C water would leave the stomach in 15 min, at most 30 min? So you are taking 3-4 grams every half hour, assuming a 12 hour window?

 

With rhinitis symptoms (sneezing-attacks) a teaspoon of ascrobic acid in water stops it already in 5-10 minutes for me. Therefore the ascorbic acid with water seems absorbed even faster on an empty stomach.

 

Assuming a 16 waking-hour waking window, and taking a dose roughly every 20 minutes, about 5 gram (a teaspoon) of ascorbic acid would add up to about 235 g of ascorbic acid per day.

 

Which despite being very experienced in high-dose ascorbic acid myself, I find very difficult to follow through. Each teaspoon taken in only 200ml of water 47 times, would already add up to 9.4 liters of water a day!

 

However, this only applies to the increased bowel-tolerance during a viral pneumonia! In good health bowel-tolerance is usually much lower. See here: http://www.doctoryou.../titration.html

 

Guess with such a high bowel-tolerance the only way would be, to place the teaspoon ascrobic acid directly on the tongue, and wash it down with a sip of water.

Edited by pamojja, 28 May 2020 - 04:55 PM.

[gamesguru]

With rhinitis symptoms (sneezing-attacks) a teaspoon of ascrobic acid in water stops it already in 5-10 minutes for me.

 

I know it's absolutely insane.  I heard if you mega dose, it will literally kill the virus right out of your body.  This needs to be looked into /s

[Gal220]

It is unfortunate vitamin C recommendations are all over the map, but we know equivalent animals in weight make roughly 3 grams a day and up to 200+ grams when sick.  You cant overdose since it produces a flushing effect if you take too much.

The vitamin C foundation recommends 1000mg 3x daily when healthy and crazy amounts when not.

 

Hypertension is an at risk group in CoVid-19, ideally you want to less than 120/80 .   One way of possibly getting lower blood pressure is to use the Pauling Theory - Link, Link1, Link2 , Link3  

There are some caveats to the protocol, so you dont waist your time - Link

 

unrelated, giving it a go for weak gums 

 

[Daniel Cooper]

It is unfortunate vitamin C recommendations are all over the map, but we know equivalent animals in weight make roughly 3 grams a day and up to 200+ grams when sick. 

 

You have to be careful in looking at what other mammals make in terms of body weight and applying that to humans.

 

As we all know, somewhere along the way, humans lost the ability to make vitamin C endogenously. Why? Evolution doesn't normally "forget" capabilities that predecessor organisms previously had, particularly when they are crucial to the organism's viability. 

 

There's a reason humans no longer have the genes to make vitamin C - because humans use glutathione as our primary antioxidant, not vitamin C as other mammals do.

 

We still need some vitamin C, but in humans glutathone does the heavy lifting so we need less, in fact amounts that can be routinely obtained in a typical pre-modern diet.  Maybe you can achieve some benefit by ingesting superphysiological levels, but you're really using it more as a pharmaceutical rather than a supplement (which I have no issue with whatsoever).  But saying that humans "should" get as much as 3 grams a day is in my opinion a stretch, since in pre-modern times (back when we were hunter gatherers) I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find many human populations routinely getting 3 grams a day in their diet. It's not impossible if you are fortunate enough to live in an area where certain superfoods are available (kakadu plums for instance).  But there were plenty of populations living in areas with relative poor sources of vitamin C.

 

If vitamin C was that readily available "in the wild" through diet, most likely other mammals would also have abandoned the capability of making it themselves.  After all, every unused capability carries some burden with potentially no benefit, something that evolution isn't prone to produce.

 

We certainly need some vitamin C, very likely more than the US RDA, but 3 g a day?  I have trouble believing that humans were supposed to get that much in their diet. 

 

For some people might there be a benefit from those levels?  Sure.

[pamojja]

As we all know, somewhere along the way, humans lost the ability to make vitamin C endogenously. Why? Evolution doesn't normally "forget" capabilities that predecessor organisms previously had, particularly when they are crucial to the organism's viability.

 

Which is a little bid like telling the surgeon after a car accident, one is fine without a damaged organ transplant, and as an individual dying from it. After all human's viabilties after so many accidents with mammoths and sabrethooth tigers is already a proven fact. They are extinct, while we've overtaken the earth. Ditto with human's encounters with all viruses.

 

There's a reason humans no longer have the genes to make vitamin C - because humans use glutathione as our primary antioxidant, not vitamin C as other mammals do.

 

And yes, gluthatione IVs also could bring an individual back from the brink of death. But why bother, since it doesn't change anything about humans viability in general?

 

We also have legs and hands. So why we need cars, ships, airplanes, CAFOs, and all their pollution? Why we need pharmaceuticals?

 

I have trouble believing that humans were supposed to get that much in their diet.

 

I don't only believe humans were ever supposed to get so much pollution. But also that it could very well also mean the end of human's organism viabilty. With all the onslaught from air, water and food one meanwhile still could choose: Invasive operations, vaccines and pharmaceuticals for life - or natural occuring molecules along with clean diet and lifestyle choices.

Edited by pamojja, 29 May 2020 - 08:16 AM.

[Gal220]

We certainly need some vitamin C, very likely more than the US RDA, but 3 g a day?  I have trouble believing that humans were supposed to get that much in their diet. 

 

For some people might there be a benefit from those levels?  Sure.

 

I feel the minimum is probably less as well, but what is it? One interesting point on this website is that animals that make their own vit C dont get Atherosclerotic Heart Disease and only those that cant make vitC do get Atherosclerotic Heart Disease(this guy theorizes its collagen deficiency).  Not sure what the value is to achieve that, but 3g a day is easy to do if you take one with each meal. Solaray has a few time release versions that would simulate what other animals do. 

 

Whats your take on the body being able to absorb crazy amounts of vit C when sick, no flushing effect happens?

[Daniel Cooper]

I feel the minimum is probably less as well, but what is it? One interesting point on this website is that animals that make their own vit C dont get Atherosclerotic Heart Disease and only those that cant make vitC do get Atherosclerotic Heart Disease(this guy theorizes its collagen deficiency).  Not sure what the value is to achieve that, but 3g a day is easy to do if you take one with each meal. Solaray has a few time release versions that would simulate what other animals do. 

 

Whats your take on the body being able to absorb crazy amounts of vit C when sick, no flushing effect happens?

 

I guess my only point was the we have an antioxidant system (glutathione) that rats and mice don't have (and glutathione is a very good antioxidant).  So taking the endogenous vitamin C production of a rat, and scaling it to a human, is probably not going to yield the right answer.

 

And sure, rats and mice and rabbits don't get atherosclerosis.  But .... they also only live a few years. Is it the vitamin C? Maybe it's part of it, I don't know, but mice and men are very different animals.  And humans have a pretty unique diet that we've created for ourselves with civilization (high fat, I carbohydrates, etc) so I think you're on shaky ground if you say a lack of endogenous vitamin C production is why we get atherosclerosis.  

 

But understand, I'm not saying there isn't some possible benefit from a high vitamin C intake.  I'm just saying that humans weren't evolved with those sort of intake levels as an assumption.  

[Gal220]

 But understand, I'm not saying there isn't some possible benefit from a high vitamin C intake.  I'm just saying that humans weren't evolved with those sort of intake levels as an assumption.  

 

Im not sure evolution really cares much after 30(supposedly we start aging at 27).  Anyone living past 40 or 50 is a win for evolution.  

 

Personally I think its probably better to directly supplement collagen and a lower dose vitamin C, but your Vit C people are certainly never going to say that. Collagen didnt fix my gums though, I will see if thehealthbeat.com is right on vit C.

 

As far as hypertension though, all the testimonial evidence builds upon the Pauline theory, science is slowly catching up though -  Link 

[Gal220]

Oxford claiming HCQ effective in early treatment of CoVid - Link  , taken from CitizenFreePress.com

 

"Five studies, including two controlled clinical trials, have demonstrated significant major outpatient treatment efficacy"

"These medications need to be widely available and promoted immediately for physicians to prescribe"

[Daniel Cooper]

Oxford claiming HCQ effective in early treatment of CoVid - Link  , taken from CitizenFreePress.com

 

"Five studies, including two controlled clinical trials, have demonstrated significant major outpatient treatment efficacy"

"These medications need to be widely available and promoted immediately for physicians to prescribe"

 

These results are just all over the place on HCQ.  Very frustrating.  I bet if we look at the methodology we might get some insight into which ones to pay attention to.

 

They can't all be right.

[Gal220]

These results are just all over the place on HCQ.  Very frustrating.  I bet if we look at the methodology we might get some insight into which ones to pay attention to.

 

They can't all be right.

 

Outpatient /early treatment only.  Gives me hope that Quercetin might also be effective , which is why the Medcram guy recommends it.  Good for gout(leutolin and cherries also) as well!  just need to take with bromelain or vit c for absorption.

 

But of course we cant get any solid info on a cheap over the counter alternative now months into this. 

Edited by Gal220, 29 May 2020 - 08:47 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Outpatient /early treatment only.  Gives me hope that Quercetin might also be effective , which is why the Medcram guy recommends it.  Good for gout(leutolin and cherries also) as well!  just need to take with bromelain or vit c for absorption.

 

But of course we cant get any solid info on a cheap over the counter alternative now months into this. 

 

I've been taking 500mg quercetin and 30mg zinc since this started.  

 

I really do sense a bias at the FDA towards new high margin on patent drugs versus off patent drugs or supplements.  At the point that Fauci started touting Remdesivir I looked at the then available trial results and it and HCQ seemed to have equally conflicting an ambiguous results and didn't see how a unbiased observer would pick one over the other.  At best you could say "more study needed" to both.

 

I understand why pharmaceutical companies should have such a bias, but the FDA is supposed to operate in the public interest. 

[Gal220]

I understand why pharmaceutical companies should have such a bias, but the FDA is supposed to operate in the public interest. 

 

CDC as well, here is their PDF for high risk people - Link    .Nothing about diet, exercise, or vitamin deficiencies.  Maybe cut back on sugar/bread/pasta...crazy

Edited by Gal220, 29 May 2020 - 09:39 PM.

[smithx]

Seems odd to me we havent got any info yet if quercetin / astragalus really works as a preventative solution.

 

I've seen a bunch of stuff on quercetin but nothing on astragalus. Do you have any links for that? Thanks!

[SillyRabbit]

I didn't know that Quercetin is estrogenic....so I assume not good for males?
 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4203161/

 

In conclusion, this study has displayed dual effect of quercetin on the uterus. At 10 mg/kg/day, quercetin displays predominantly anti-estrogenic effect which could be due to the binding to type-2 estrogen receptor. A significant inhibition on estrogen-induced changes by this quercetin dose is potentially useful as quercetin could be considered as oral contraceptive agent. At high dose (100 mg/kg/day) intake such as that occur with quercetin-rich dietary supplement, the exaggerated estrogenic activities rendered this compound a potential hazard that could trigger neoplastic development.

 

 

 

Edited by SillyRabbit, 30 May 2020 - 01:47 AM.

[Gal220]

I've seen a bunch of stuff on quercetin but nothing on astragalus. Do you have any links for that? Thanks!

See 2nd video in this post .  Various other websites repeat the same information found at sites like Iherb and consumerlab .  By far, the most recommended supplement is quercetin - possibly preventative and regulation of cytokine storm. 

 

In my 40s, initially I would only add quercetin to a vitamin regimen. The blood clotting thing has convinced me natto or serracor-nk is also worth doing(0xygen finger sensor also purchased).  Im sure I would do more if over 60.

Edited by Gal220, 30 May 2020 - 05:19 AM.

[lancebr]

Interesting articles about live attenuated vaccines (ie MMR, BCG, Polio) potentially providing protection against

the worst symptoms of Covid 19

 

"Aside from adaptive immunity, it has been postulated that live attenuated vaccines also induce ‘trained’ non-specific
innate immunity for improved antimicrobial function. Work from our laboratory demonstrated that vaccination with a

live attenuated fungal strain induces trained innate protection against lethal polymicrobial sepsis. The protection is

mediated by myeloid-derived suppressor cells (MDSCs) reported to inhibit sepsis and mortality in several experimental

models. Mortality in COVID-19 cases is strongly associated with progressive lung inflammation and eventual sepsis."

 

"Older adults, while likely still possessing antibody titers from their childhood vaccines due to the presence of long-lived
memory lymphocytes, will likely not have retained trained MDSCs, which have a more limited lifespan. Therefore a live

attenuated vaccine booster for older adults may re-induce MDSCs that could provide protection against the most lethal

sequelae of COVID-19 such as damaging lung inflammation and sepsis."

 

https://www.skinbody...idel_Noverr.pdf

 

https://medium.com/@...19-559b91bf26c6

[bladedmind]

Reduced Vitamin K Status as A Potentially Modifiable Prognostic Risk Factor in COVID-19

[Gal220]

Reduced Vitamin K Status as A Potentially Modifiable Prognostic Risk Factor in COVID-19

 

Looks like they are talking about K2 specifically - Link1, Link2 .    

 

"Higher vitamin K status was seen in the control group—so people who did not get COVID-19 tended to have better vitamin K levels. But more importantly, of the sick patients, those who fared worse had lower vitamin K status. "

 

Not all supplements contain K2, many just have K1, something worth checking as its important for keeping calcium out of your arteries anyway(see the first link). Vit K deficiency is common, hard to get in your diet.

 

 

General info about K2 - Link 

LEF has since modified their super K which the link complains about, IMO much is made over mk-7 K2 when in reality your body just needs mk-4 K2. Mk-7 has to be converted to mk-4 which has led to the marketing hype it stays in your blood longer, ie your body cant use it.

 

I prefer LEF's daily health booster for E, K, and lutein.

[Gal220]

Interesting comment in this article by Andrew Weil and Kevin Rose - Link

 

"It’s reported that one county in China which produces most of their garlic is yet to have a single case of coronavirus. This area’s population is over one million, 30,000 of which work in Wuhan (the outbreak’s epicentre)."

 

I guess they are concluding that since it is made there, most people are using it.

 

 

"The active compound, allicin, isn’t present in fresh garlic. It has to be crushed from fresh garlic (not aged or fermented) to trigger the reaction to create this antiviral compound. You may also find it as a dietary supplement."

 

it would have been really clever of them to give a dosage recommendation for prevention, maybe 1 day.

 

 

Vitamin shoppe , 300 tablets of 6000mcg for $35 . 

 

LEF recommends - Take 9,000‒18,000 mg of high-allicin garlic each day until symptoms subside. Take with food to minimize stomach irritation.

[joelcairo]

Interesting comment in this article by Andrew Weil and Kevin Rose - Link

 

"It’s reported that one county in China which produces most of their garlic is yet to have a single case of coronavirus. This area’s population is over one million, 30,000 of which work in Wuhan (the outbreak’s epicentre)."

 

I guess they are concluding that since it is made there, most people are using it.

 

 

"The active compound, allicin, isn’t present in fresh garlic. It has to be crushed from fresh garlic (not aged or fermented) to trigger the reaction to create this antiviral compound. You may also find it as a dietary supplement."

 

it would have been really clever of them to give a dosage recommendation for prevention, maybe 1 day.

 

 

Vitamin shoppe , 300 tablets of 6000mcg for $35 . 

 

LEF recommends - Take 9,000‒18,000 mg of high-allicin garlic each day until symptoms subside. Take with food to minimize stomach irritation.

 

 

I find such evidence to be extremely dubious. How is it possible that every single person in that region eats so much garlic that they are immune from COVID-19? Including 30,000 people who actually work in the original epicenter Wuhan? This connection should have been easily discoverable early on and all the garlic in the world should have been hoarded by now. This isn't even anecdotal, it  feels more like an urban legend.

 

No offence to the poster. I'm not saying garlic doesn't help somewhat, I just don't buy the wonder stories that turn so many reasonable preventive therapies into miracle cures.

[Gal220]

No offense taken, just something I came across.  It does make me think they are doing something though, garlic or not.  I would just have a good vitamin regimen + quercetin and natto myself.   

 

If I became symptomatic I would certainly add some  glutathione, garlic(allicin specifially), curcumin, extra C, melatonin, and potassium while I waited for a test to come back.

 

Probably start adding potassium pills to my meals, there is no way im getting close to 5000mg

Edited by Gal220, 01 June 2020 - 08:33 PM.

[Gal220]

I guess it is worth mentioning garlic is a good option if you are trying to reduce hypertension which does put you at CoVid risk. - Link

 

 

"Research suggests that allicin may help regulate blood pressure and may be as effective as medication for treating hypertension.

In a 2013 clinical trial performed in Pakistan, 210 patients with high blood pressure were given between 300 mg and 1,500 mg garlic tablets, a placebo, or the beta-blocker atenolol. Subjects given garlic showed clinically significant reductions in systolic and diastolic blood pressure over both the placebo and atenolol groups."

Edited by Gal220, 01 June 2020 - 09:13 PM.

[gamesguru]

I guess it is worth mentioning garlic is a good option if you are trying to reduce hypertension which does put you at CoVid risk. - Link

 

Seems like more would have been looked into with regard to the Swiss study on COVID-related damages to the micro-vasculature.

 

Probably a vasodilator + anti-inflammatory would help, but it's impossible to say for sure.  Ginger, turmeric and ginkgo would all be on the cards potentially

[thompson92]

Tan, C., Ho, L., Kalimuddin, S., Cherng, B., Teh, Y., & Thien, S. et al. (2020). A cohort study to evaluate the effect of combination Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 (DMB) on progression to severe outcome in older COVID-19 patients. Medrxiv, 2020.06.01.20112334. Retrieved from https://www.medrxiv....6.01.20112334v1

 

 

Abstract

Objective: To determine the clinical outcomes of older COVID-19 patients who received DMB compared to those who did not. We hypothesized that fewer patients administered DMB would require oxygen therapy and/or intensive care support than those who did not. Methodology: Cohort observational study of all consecutive hospitalized COVID-19 patients aged 50 and above in a tertiary academic hospital who received DMB compared to a recent cohort who did not. Patients were administered oral vitamin D3 1000 IU OD, magnesium 150mg OD and vitamin B12 500mcg OD (DMB) upon admission if they did not require oxygen therapy. Primary outcome was deterioration post-DMB administration leading to any form of oxygen therapy and/or intensive care support. Results: Between 15 January and 15 April 2020, 43 consecutive COVID-19 patients aged ≥50 were identified. 17 patients received DMB and 26 patients did not. Baseline demographic characteristics between the two groups were similar. Significantly fewer DMB patients than controls required initiation of oxygen therapy subsequently throughout their hospitalization (17.6% vs 61.5%, P=0.006). DMB exposure was associated with odds ratios of 0.13 (95% CI: 0.03 − 0.59) and 0.15 (95% CI: 0.03 − 0.93) for oxygen therapy need and/or intensive care support on univariate and multivariate analyses respectively. Conclusions: DMB combination in older COVID-19 patients was associated with a significant reduction in proportion of patients with clinical deterioration requiring oxygen support and/or intensive care support. This study supports further larger randomized control trials to ascertain the full benefit of DMB in ameliorating COVID-19 severity.

 

 

 

1000 IU Vit D3

150 mg of Magnesium

500 mcg of B12

 

 

Edited by thompson92, 02 June 2020 - 10:45 AM.

[FSL]

Read from a few places that Ashwagandha might have some effects on COVID-19:

 

https://www.business...ory/400102.html

https://www.research...cle/rs-17806/v1

 

Another molecular docking paper can be downloaded from here (4-5MB, check Table 1):

 

https://chemrxiv.org...oach/12110214/2

 

If Table 1 is taken as is, Ashwagandha components have the best overall binding affinity, followed by Ursolic acid and Crategolic acid, which are in turn better than what were discussed here like Curcumin, Hesperidin, Quercetin, Rosmarinic acid etc.

Edited by FSL, 02 June 2020 - 03:33 PM.

[FSL]

At least not "new" news to me as I have read similar findings in other places, but it is the latest from Cell, and it reminds me of Dorian's post #3 in the first page of this thread (https://www.longecit...es/#entry884940), plus saline nasal irrigation (my post https://www.longecit...-27#entry889421).

 

Researchers map SARS-CoV-2 infection in cells of nasal cavity, bronchia, lungs

 

https://medicalxpres...sal-cavity.html

 

The findings suggest the virus tends to become firmly established first in the nasal cavity, but in some cases the virus is aspirated into the lungs, where it may cause more serious disease, including potentially fatal pneumonia.

 

"If the nose is the dominant initial site from which lung infections are seeded, then the widespread use of masks to protect the nasal passages, as well as any therapeutic strategies that reduce virus in the nose, such as nasal irrigation or antiviral nasal sprays, could be beneficial,"

 

The hypothesis that aspiration of oral contents into the lung is a significant contributor to COVID-19 pneumonia is consistent with the observations that people at higher risk for severe lung disease—the elderly, obese, and diabetic—are more prone to aspiration, especially at night.

Edited by FSL, 02 June 2020 - 10:59 PM.

[Malf]

EMIQ is a better alternative to regular quercetin, with up to x40 bioavailability. It's normally available on Amazon, but many of the brands offered are currently out of stock. There are still some available. You can tell the problem with regular quercetin, in that virtually every vendor combines it with bromelain or some other thing to try an increase it potency, likely with minimal effect.

 

I have a bottle of Natural Factors EMIQ but im scared to take it because some guy said its a Mutagen and that it will make your heart suffer. is there truth to this?

[Oakman]

I have a bottle of Natural Factors EMIQ but im scared to take it because some guy said its a Mutagen and that it will make your heart suffer. is there truth to this?

 

No, I really don't know. That's kinda vague...some guy...do you have a reference? 

 

I can say my heart appears to be strong, and I take 50 mg EMIQ every day, that's all I can tell you.