3083 replies to this topic

[Malf]

No, I really don't know. That's kinda vague...some guy...do you have a reference? 

 

I can say my heart appears to be strong, and I take 50 mg EMIQ every day, that's all I can tell you.

 

It was in the comment sections of an article on Quercitin, someone commented to me when I said I bought EMIQ version he said that I shouldn't take it because  Quercitin doesn't absorb well and its a mutagen, his comment was enough to scare me so I haven't taken it and I bought it a few months ago before this pandemic. Only reason I bought EMIQ is because it said it was the more absorb form.

 

So you never had a racing heart while on it? or any sides? How long have you been taking it?

[Gal220]

I have a bottle of Natural Factors EMIQ but im scared to take it because some guy said its a Mutagen and that it will make your heart suffer. is there truth to this?

 

All the online information I could find was positive. 

 

"Both quercetin and EMIQ are well tolerated in humans with no side effects noted in the clinical studies. Animal studies have also showed that quercetin and EMIQ have no apparent side effects, even when consumed in large quantities for long periods of time (up to two years). " - Link 

 

Mercola has another quercetin article up - Link

 

• "COVID-19 interferes with a cell’s ability to protect itself; researchers find quercetin protects cellular response and boosts type 1 interferon
• Type 1 interferon works by signaling infected cells to produce proteins to stop the virus from replicating in the cell"

[Oakman]

So you never had a racing heart while on it? or any sides? How long have you been taking it?

No x2. Years, maybe 2 or 3.

[DanCG]

I have a bottle of Natural Factors EMIQ but im scared to take it because some guy said its a Mutagen and that it will make your heart suffer. is there truth to this?

I remember a post referring to quercetin mutagenicity. I thought about commenting at the time, but never got to it. Your post prompted me to look into it. In the meantime, Gal220’s links have pretty much answered the question.

 

Anyway, a Pubmed search: quercetin AND (mutagen OR genotoxic) -> many papers showing that quercetin scores as a direct mutagen in the Ames test. But it has been thoroughly tested and is not found to be a carcinogen, despite being a mutagen.

The same search finds papers showing that quercetin also protects against the mutagenic, carcinogenic, or toxic effects of many other compounds in different systems.  Quercetin and related flavonoids have multiple effects, including inhibiting sulfotransferase 1A1 and CYP1a1, each of which activates certain carcinogens to their active form.

 

Looking for effects of quercetin in the heart, without reference to mutagenicity, we find:

Quercetin Dihydrate proposed for the treatment of myocardial fibrosis because it inhibits fibrosis induced by Angiotensin II.

 

This paper in Medical Hypotheses elaborates on the quercetin/interferon connection: “The serine/threonine kinase CK2 has been shown to down-regulate the production of type 1 interferons in response to viral infections by conferring an inhibitory phosphorylation on RIG-I, which functions to detect double-stranded RNA generated during replication of RNA viruses. Quercetin and certain other planar flavones/flavonols can inhibit CK2 in high nanomolar concentrations; this may explain quercetin's ability to slow the proliferation of RNA viruses in cell cultures and in mice. Limited clinical evidence suggests that supplemental quercetin may decrease risk for upper respiratory infections in humans. Quercetin and enzymatically-modified isoquercitrin (EMIQ - a food additive/nutraceutical that upon oral administration achieves far higher plasma concentrations of quercetin than quercetin per se) also have exerted a range of vascular-protective effects clinically and in rodents - improving endothelial function, warding off atherosclerosis, lowering blood pressure, decreasing C-reactive protein, aiding glycemic control, stabilizing platelets - that might also, at least in part, reflect CK2 inhibition. The utility of quercetin, EMIQ, and other clinically feasible CK2 inhibitors for aiding control of viral infections and promoting vascular and metabolic health merits further evaluation.”

 

All in all, I feel safe in consuming quercetin. I would also point out that the early papers that wondered how quercetin could be a mutagen but not a carcinogen were published before the concept of hormesis was widely appreciated.

Edited by DanCG, 03 June 2020 - 01:10 PM.

[Malf]

 

All the online information I could find was positive. 

 

"Both quercetin and EMIQ are well tolerated in humans with no side effects noted in the clinical studies. Animal studies have also showed that quercetin and EMIQ have no apparent side effects, even when consumed in large quantities for long periods of time (up to two years). " - Link 

 

Mercola has another quercetin article up - Link

 

• "COVID-19 interferes with a cell’s ability to protect itself; researchers find quercetin protects cellular response and boosts type 1 interferon
• Type 1 interferon works by signaling infected cells to produce proteins to stop the virus from replicating in the cell"

 

 

Thanks for that info, this why I always get nervous because when I buy supplements Ill read those Amazon reviews and some people will leave scary reviews about side effects.

[Malf]

No x2. Years, maybe 2 or 3.

 

Im going to start taking my EMIQ is it best to take it in the morning or evening? Can I take it with fish oil that is the only other supplement I take with my breakfast.

[Malf]

I remember a post referring to quercetin mutagenicity. I thought about commenting at the time, but never got to it. Your post prompted me to look into it. In the meantime, Gal220’s links have pretty much answered the question.

 

Anyway, a Pubmed search: quercetin AND (mutagen OR genotoxic) -> many papers showing that quercetin scores as a direct mutagen in the Ames test. But it has been thoroughly tested and is not found to be a carcinogen, despite being a mutagen.

The same search finds papers showing that quercetin also protects against the mutagenic, carcinogenic, or toxic effects of many other compounds in different systems.  Quercetin and related flavonoids have multiple effects, including inhibiting sulfotransferase 1A1 and CYP1a1, each of which activates certain carcinogens to their active form.

 

Looking for effects of quercetin in the heart, without reference to mutagenicity, we find:

Quercetin Dihydrate proposed for the treatment of myocardial fibrosis because it inhibits fibrosis induced by Angiotensin II.

 

This paper in Medical Hypotheses elaborates on the quercetin/interferon connection: “The serine/threonine kinase CK2 has been shown to down-regulate the production of type 1 interferons in response to viral infections by conferring an inhibitory phosphorylation on RIG-I, which functions to detect double-stranded RNA generated during replication of RNA viruses. Quercetin and certain other planar flavones/flavonols can inhibit CK2 in high nanomolar concentrations; this may explain quercetin's ability to slow the proliferation of RNA viruses in cell cultures and in mice. Limited clinical evidence suggests that supplemental quercetin may decrease risk for upper respiratory infections in humans. Quercetin and enzymatically-modified isoquercitrin (EMIQ - a food additive/nutraceutical that upon oral administration achieves far higher plasma concentrations of quercetin than quercetin per se) also have exerted a range of vascular-protective effects clinically and in rodents - improving endothelial function, warding off atherosclerosis, lowering blood pressure, decreasing C-reactive protein, aiding glycemic control, stabilizing platelets - that might also, at least in part, reflect CK2 inhibition. The utility of quercetin, EMIQ, and other clinically feasible CK2 inhibitors for aiding control of viral infections and promoting vascular and metabolic health merits further evaluation.”

 

All in all, I feel safe in consuming quercetin. I would also point out that the early papers that wondered how quercetin could be a mutagen but not a carcinogen were published before the concept of hormesis was widely appreciated.

 

thanks for this. I have the Natural Factors EMIQ, I used to take the regular Quercitin and never felt any sides but was told its not easily digestible so I bought the EMIQ but then read some reviews and some comments and the guy said its dangerous to take EMIQ because it goes fast to your system and could make your heart race and suffer.

 

 

 

[gamesguru]

Seems the studies posted in Lancet and NEJM weren't totally sound.  We may have to give it a second shot to confirm bad results.

 

WHO set to resume hydroxychloroquine trial in battle on COVID-19

GENEVA (Reuters) - The World Health Organization (WHO) is set to resume its trial of hydroxychloroquine for potential use against the new coronavirus, its head Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said on Wednesday, after testing was suspended due to health concerns.

 

The U.N. body had paused its large study of the anti-malarial drug to treat COVID-19 due to fears it increased death rates and irregular heartbeats in patients.

 

But Tedros told an online media briefing that WHO experts had advised the continuation of all trials including hydroxychloroquine, whose highest-profile backer for its use against the coronavirus has been U.S. President Donald Trump.

 

WHO officials said they were especially worried about outbreaks in Latin America and in Haiti, one of the world’s poorest nations, where infections have been spreading rapidly.

 

The coronavirus has infected almost 3 million people in the Americas.

[FSL]

Seems the studies posted in Lancet and NEJM weren't totally sound.  We may have to give it a second shot to confirm bad results.

 

Some Ivermectin results were also questioned from data from the same company:

 

https://www.sciencem...y-be-unraveling

 

A third COVID-19 study using Surgisphere data has also drawn fire. In a preprint first posted in early April, Surgisphere founder and CEO Sapan Desai and co-authors conclude that ivermectin, an antiparasitic drug, dramatically reduced mortality in COVID-19 patients.

[gamesguru]

New study from today June 3 again casts doubts on HCQ.

 

Seems like it's only effective taken pre-emptively, which isn't economically sustainable or personally practical for someone already quite sick.  Form your own opinions

 

A Randomized Trial of Hydroxychloroquine as Postexposure Prophylaxis for Covid-19

 

Background

Coronavirus disease 2019 (Covid-19) occurs after exposure to severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). For persons who are exposed, the standard of care is observation and quarantine. Whether hydroxychloroquine can prevent symptomatic infection after SARS-CoV-2 exposure is unknown.

Methods

We conducted a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial across the United States and parts of Canada testing hydroxychloroquine as postexposure prophylaxis. We enrolled adults who had household or occupational exposure to someone with confirmed Covid-19 at a distance of less than 6 ft for more than 10 minutes while wearing neither a face mask nor an eye shield (high-risk exposure) or while wearing a face mask but no eye shield (moderate-risk exposure). Within 4 days after exposure, we randomly assigned participants to receive either placebo or hydroxychloroquine (800 mg once, followed by 600 mg in 6 to 8 hours, then 600 mg daily for 4 additional days). The primary outcome was the incidence of either laboratory-confirmed Covid-19 or illness compatible with Covid-19 within 14 days.

Results

We enrolled 821 asymptomatic participants. Overall, 87.6% of the participants (719 of 821) reported a high-risk exposure to a confirmed Covid-19 contact. The incidence of new illness compatible with Covid-19 did not differ significantly between participants receiving hydroxychloroquine (49 of 414 [11.8%]) and those receiving placebo (58 of 407 [14.3%]); the absolute difference was −2.4 percentage points (95% confidence interval, −7.0 to 2.2; P=0.35). Side effects were more common with hydroxychloroquine than with placebo (40.1% vs. 16.8%), but no serious adverse reactions were reported.

Conclusions

After high-risk or moderate-risk exposure to Covid-19, hydroxychloroquine did not prevent illness compatible with Covid-19 or confirmed infection when used as postexposure prophylaxis within 4 days after exposure.

(Funded by David Baszucki and Jan Ellison Baszucki and others; ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT04308668. opens in new tab.)

[bladedmind]

Followup on posts 1688 and 1689.  Looks like the HCQ study and trial disruption is a scandal of the highest order.

https://www.theguard...roxychloroquine

 

Says the Guardian,

 

 

A Guardian investigation can reveal the US-based company Surgisphere, whose handful of employees appear to include a science fiction writer and an adult-content model, has provided data for multiple studies on Covid-19 co-authored by its chief executive, but has so far failed to adequately explain its data or methodology.

 

Data it claims to have legitimately obtained from more than a thousand hospitals worldwide formed the basis of scientific articles that have led to changes in Covid-19 treatment policies in Latin American countries. It was also behind a decision by the WHO and research institutes around the world to halt trials of the controversial drug hydroxychloroquine. On Wednesday, the WHO announced those trials would now resume.

 

Two of the world’s leading medical journals – the Lancet and the New England Journal of Medicine – published studies based on Surgisphere data. The studies were co-authored by the firm’s chief executive, Sapan Desai.

 

Late on Tuesday, after being approached by the Guardian, the Lancet released an “expression of concern” about its published study. The New England Journal of Medicine has also issued a similar notice.

 

An independent audit of the provenance and validity of the data has now been commissioned by the authors not affiliated with Surgisphere because of “concerns that have been raised about the reliability of the database”.

 

Questions raised over hydroxychloroquine study which caused WHO to halt trials for Covid-19

 

*A search of publicly available material suggests several of Surgisphere’s employees have little or no data or scientific background. An employee listed as a science editor appears to be a science fiction author and fantasy artist. Another employee listed as a marketing executive is an adult model and events hostess.

 

*The company’s LinkedIn page has fewer than 100 followers and last week listed just six employees. This was changed to three employees as of Wednesday.

 

*While Surgisphere claims to run one of the largest and fastest hospital databases in the world, it has almost no online presence. Its Twitter handle has fewer than 170 followers, with no posts between October 2017 and March 2020.

 

*Until Monday, the “get in touch” link on Surgisphere’s homepage redirected to a WordPress template for a cryptocurrency website, raising questions about how hospitals could easily contact the company to join its database.

 

*Desai has been named in three medical malpractice suits, unrelated to the Surgisphere database. In an interview with the Scientist, Desai previously described the allegations as “unfounded”.

 

*In 2008, Desai launched a crowdfunding campaign on the website Indiegogo promoting a wearable “next generation human augmentation device that can help you achieve what you never thought was possible”. The device never came to fruition.

 

*Desai’s Wikipedia page has been deleted following questions about Surgisphere and his history.

 

 

 

And more, just as lurid. 

[bladedmind]

Small observational cohort study on Vitamin D, Magnesium, and B12 (some of my favorite supps). 

 

Patients were administered oral vitamin D3 1000 IU OD, magnesium 150mg OD and vitamin B12 500mcg OD (DMB) upon admission if they did not require oxygen therapy....Significantly fewer DMB patients than controls required initiation of oxygen therapy subsequently throughout their hospitalization (17.6% vs 61.5%, P=0.006). DMB exposure was associated with odds ratios of 0.13 (95% CI: 0.03 − 0.59) and 0.15 (95% CI: 0.03 − 0.93) for oxygen therapy need and/or intensive care support on univariate and multivariate analyses respectively. Conclusions: DMB combination in older COVID-19 patients was associated with a significant reduction in proportion of patients with clinical deterioration requiring oxygen support and/or intensive care support.

 

[gamesguru]

Followup on posts 1688 and 1689.  Looks like the HCQ study and trial disruption is a scandal of the highest order.

And more, just as lurid. 

 

Yes it was scandalous.  However it's still a 50/50 shot as to whether HCQ works or not, need to confirm ASAP.  Latest study (June 3rd, today) casts more doubt on it.  Appears to only work as a prophylactic.  There will still be people that ask for pre-exposure trials but at this stage this is mostly the conspiracy guys.  We're truly in hellish waters.  All the classic treatments fall short.  Oseltamivir, a neuraminidase inhibitor, will likely prove ineffective as well on SARS-CoV-2, a virus that does not apparently rely on this enzyme for virion release from infected cells.  I'm standing by my early regimen of red onion (quercetin) and mushrooms (atypical immune modulators).  Thank you.

[Gal220]

Im going to start taking my EMIQ is it best to take it in the morning or evening? Can I take it with fish oil that is the only other supplement I take with my breakfast.

 

Natural Factors is a good brand, they would specify if it needed to be taken on an empty stomach.

[Gal220]

Small observational cohort study on Vitamin D, Magnesium, and B12 (some of my favorite supps). 

 

Vitamin D needs the magnesium, kind of small dose of magnesium, both are common deficiencies. - Link

 

  1) Increased Vitamin D builds bones, which consumes Magnesium
  2) Vitamin D metabolism uses Magnesium in 8 places

 

As you get older, B12 is poorly absorbed due to poor stomach acid or digestive trac issues. - Link

 

"Because immune cells have high metabolic activity and high rates of proliferation, they require vitamin B12 to form new immune cells and mount a proper immune" - Link

 

Surprising they didnt go ahead and add vit A, zinc, omegas, and selenium to their concoction... or a multivitamin.

 

CDC should have been out front telling us, especially seniors, to address our vitamin deficiencies

[Malf]

Small observational cohort study on Vitamin D, Magnesium, and B12 (some of my favorite supps). 

 

What is a good brand of B12, I was told the b12 you get in the B complex doesn't absorb well and you should take a sublingual.

Vitamin D needs the magnesium, kind of small dose of magnesium, both are common deficiencies. - Link

 

  1) Increased Vitamin D builds bones, which consumes Magnesium
  2) Vitamin D metabolism uses Magnesium in 8 places

 

As you get older, B12 is poorly absorbed due to poor stomach acid or digestive trac issues. - Link

 

"Because immune cells have high metabolic activity and high rates of proliferation, they require vitamin B12 to form new immune cells and mount a proper immune" - Link

 

Surprising they didnt go ahead and add vit A, zinc, omegas, and selenium to their concoction... or a multivitamin.

 

CDC should have been out front telling us, especially seniors, to address our vitamin deficiencies

 

Ive been trying to find a good quality B12, do you know any good brands?

[Gal220]

What is a good brand of B12, I was told the b12 you get in the B complex doesn't absorb well and you should take a sublingual.

Thorne, Jarrow, Life Extension.  I would add digestive enzymes(i take one with steak meals), collagen(sports research has a good powder),and probiotics to keep a healthy gut.

[Malf]

Thorne, Jarrow, Life Extension.  I would add digestive enzymes(i take one with steak meals), collagen(sports research has a good powder),and probiotics to keep a healthy gut.

 

Im in my late 30s about to turn 40, and Ive heard to take a good digestive enzyme as well because our digestive systems are not the same as when younger. Is papaya enzymes chewables good or are their better ones?

 

I was looking at the Great Lakes Collagen powder.

 

Should I take a Coq10 supplement?

[joelcairo]

Some Ivermectin results were also questioned from data from the same company:

 

Unbelievable. What a clusterbonk.

 

Who would have thought that a parade of liars, charlatans, bunglers, profiteers and thought police could mess up every aspect of the virus response this badly? Not just in the US but all around the world.

Edited by joelcairo, 04 June 2020 - 08:07 AM.

[bladedmind]

What is a good brand of B12, I was told the b12 you get in the B complex doesn't absorb well and you should take a sublingual.

 

Ive been trying to find a good quality B12, do you know any good brands?

 

You want to get sublingual methylcobalamin, methyl B-12.  Looking at Amazon, Solgar nuggets, Now lozenge, Kirkland.  Any reputable brand.  If you're older, 5000 mcg.  

 

Should be sublingual - if you're deficient it could be because you can't absorb through the oral route. 

 

One thing about methyl B-12:  if you need it, you will feel.very good after adopting it, and will start to feel bad days or weeks or months after stopping it. 

 

I get pharmaceutical methyl B-12 from my MD and self-inject a small amount every 3 days into buttocks fat - have done so for 20 years.  I was effectively disabled, and my first big injection of it was like instantly waking from the dead.   My integrative MD said that I am not a good metabolizer of B-12 from the diet.  If I don't keep up I quickly become mentally dead. 

 

If, unlike me, you're normal, you can build it up daily for 1-3 months, then do once a week to maintain.  It is stored up in your liver, and anything you don't use is excreted. 

 

I've heard anecdotally that long-term vegetarians need it.  They're doing fine, and then their liver reserves are exhausted over 5 years and they feel like I did - mentally dead. 

 

Maybe others have different advice to offer. 

[albedo]

Followup on posts 1688 and 1689.  Looks like the HCQ study and trial disruption is a scandal of the highest order.

https://www.theguard...roxychloroquine

 

Says the Guardian,

 

 

 

And more, just as lurid. 

 

"...we are issuing an Expression of Concern to alert readers to the fact that serious scientific questions have been brought to our attention. We will update this notice as soon as we have further information..."

https://www.thelance...1290-3/fulltext

I really hope The Lancet will come up soon with something and happy at least the WHO trial will resume. If I cannot even trust papers coming out from such respected sources I really wonder where the heck we are going ...

Here also the open letter to the authors:

https://statmodeling...-al_Final-1.pdf

Thank you for having shared!
 

(edit: adding links)

Edited by albedo, 04 June 2020 - 10:17 AM.

[Oakman]

Im going to start taking my EMIQ is it best to take it in the morning or evening? Can I take it with fish oil that is the only other supplement I take with my breakfast.

 

I take 60 mg EMIQ (EnduraQ) with the evening meal. Natural factors was out of stock last time I needed some, and this is a good brand, I've taken many many bottles of it (https://www.enduraq.com/). I don't see why fish oil would be any problem, but just try it to see. I take fish oil with Ubiquinol with breakfast  https://www.amazon.c...0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[gamesguru]

pro-HCQ Indian preprint debunked as statistical heresy.  Utterly scandalous that the opposite sides keep pushing false narratives like this.  It unveils the political nature of the whole thing.  HCQ likely only works—if at all—when taken ahead of infection.  Therefore not too practical imho given nasty side effect profile.

 

Six weeks of HCQ prophylaxis reduces likelihood of Covid-19 infection by 80% among symptomatic health care workers (Indian Journal of Medicine)

85% of patients in the University of Minnesota Trial didn't even test for coronavirus (symptom based assessment)* and course adherence was low. Once again, another poor study.

*"Of 113 persons in whom symptomatic illness developed, 16 had PCR-confirmed disease*"* https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2016638

 

[Gal220]

Im in my late 30s about to turn 40, and Ive heard to take a good digestive enzyme as well because our digestive systems are not the same as when younger. Is papaya enzymes chewables good or are their better ones?

 

I was looking at the Great Lakes Collagen powder.

 

Should I take a Coq10 supplement?

If you search digestive enzymes on amazon, look for one that is well reviewed like zenwise health.  I dont digest beef well so always take one with it.

 

Im a believer in CoQ10, better energy levels - Andrew Weil recommends it for diabetics - Link  .  Sinatra recommends it for blood pressure and heart health - Link  - Both risks for CoVid.

 

"Research has also shown that CoQ10 levels decline with age. After age 40, your body produces less CoQ10 and by age 70 you’re producing just a fraction of the CoQ10 your body used to manufacture. "

 

Like so many other things.

[Gal220]

Maybe others have different advice to offer. 

I was shocked when my Mom's doctor recommended B12 to her as a possibility for her short term memory issues b/c of age/absorption factor.  Nice when you find a Dr who is keeping up.

[Malf]

I take 60 mg EMIQ (EnduraQ) with the evening meal. Natural factors was out of stock last time I needed some, and this is a good brand, I've taken many many bottles of it (https://www.enduraq.com/). I don't see why fish oil would be any problem, but just try it to see. I take fish oil with Ubiquinol with breakfast  https://www.amazon.c...0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Thanks

 

So Im going to start taking my B complex in the morning with EMIQ and fishoil is that okay or will they fight for absorption?

If you search digestive enzymes on amazon, look for one that is well reviewed like zenwise health.  I dont digest beef well so always take one with it.

 

Im a believer in CoQ10, better energy levels - Andrew Weil recommends it for diabetics - Link  .  Sinatra recommends it for blood pressure and heart health - Link  - Both risks for CoVid.

 

"Research has also shown that CoQ10 levels decline with age. After age 40, your body produces less CoQ10 and by age 70 you’re producing just a fraction of the CoQ10 your body used to manufacture. "

 

Like so many other things.

 

thanks for the info

 

What type of Coq10 should I take and any brand?

 

I was wondering if I take it in the morning with my b complex, and EMIQ will it fight for absorption?

Edited by Malf, 04 June 2020 - 03:14 PM.

[Gal220]

 

What type of Coq10 should I take and any brand?  I was wondering if I take it in the morning with my b complex, and EMIQ will it fight for absorption?

I take this CoQ10  I believe CoQ10 is fat soluble like Omega3s and Vitamin E, best taken with some fat like eggs, meat, or avocado - Mercola has a guide

[Malf]

I was shocked when my Mom's doctor recommended B12 to her as a possibility for her short term memory issues b/c of age/absorption factor.  Nice when you find a Dr who is keeping up.

 

I am trying to buy some b12, should I try the Hydroxocobalamin from AOR since I heard you dont have to take that every day since its the best version

 

https://www.iherb.co...-Lozenges/52244

[Gal220]

I am trying to buy some b12, should I try the Hydroxocobalamin from AOR since I heard you dont have to take that every day since its the best version - https://www.iherb.co...-Lozenges/52244

Afraid I just take a multi(Life extension 2 a day) + food (Im basically a carnivore) + digestive enzymes for it.  I thought this page was informative - Link 

[gamesguru]

Im basically a carnivore