3083 replies to this topic

[albedo]

A possibly positive development against severe Covid-19? I guess the importance of the still controversial HCQ is here possibly reestablished in treatment e.g. when used in combination with the now reportedly proven dexamethasone glucocorticoid via a new mechanism (lysosome inhibition):

 

He Y, Xu Y, Zhang C, et al. Identification of a lysosomal pathway that modulates glucocorticoid signaling and the inflammatory response. Sci Signal. 2011;4(180):ra44.

https://stke.science...4/180/ra44.full

 

"The antimalaria drug chloroquine has been used as an anti-inflammatory agent for treating systemic lupus erythematosus and rheumatoid arthritis. We report that chloroquine promoted the transrepression of proinflammatory cytokines by the glucocorticoid receptor (GR). In a mouse collagen-induced arthritis model, chloroquine enhanced the therapeutic effects of glucocorticoid treatment. By inhibiting lysosome function, chloroquine synergistically activated glucocorticoid signaling. Lysosomal inhibition by either bafilomycin A1 (an inhibitor of the vacuolar adenosine triphosphatase) or knockdown of transcription factor EB (TFEB, a master activator of lysosomal biogenesis) mimicked the effects of chloroquine. The abundance of the GR, as well as that of the androgen receptor and estrogen receptor, correlated with changes in lysosomal biogenesis. Thus, we showed that glucocorticoid signaling is regulated by lysosomes, which provides a mechanistic basis for treating inflammation and autoimmune diseases with a combination of glucocorticoids and lysosomal inhibitors."

 

"...Given the widespread clinical use of glucocorticoids for treating inflammatory diseases and cancers, our discovery of the synergism between CQ and glucocorticoids has immediate therapeutic implications. Clinical studies of rheumatoid arthritis have shown that combined treatment of CQ with a low dose of glucocorticoid (for example, prednisolone at <15 mg/day) achieved a better effect, in terms of reducing joint destruction and increasing the remission rate, than either agent alone (44–46). Our results provide mechanistic insight for this treatment strategy and suggest that combined treatment not only will allow a lower dose of glucocorticoid to be effective but may also achieve therapeutic effects in situations when even a maximal dose of glucocorticoid fails to suppress the inflammation. Our study addresses why the combined treatment has better effects and provides a rational basis for developing new therapeutic applications by leveraging the synergy between glucocorticoids and lysosomal inhibitors..."

[lancebr]

.

Ivermectin treatment is a ‘real killer of coronavirus’

 

 

 

Edited by lancebr, 07 August 2020 - 01:35 PM.

[Hip]

When Prof Thomas Borody says in this video (at 2:00) that "it looks like corona is very simple to kill", it comes across as hype.

 

Many years ago, Prof Thomas Borody, who runs a private clinic in Australia, the Center for Digestive Diseases, claimed that his FMT treatment (fecal microbiota transplantation) completely and permanently cures the largely incurable disease chronic fatigue syndrome / myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME/CFS).

 

But this disease ME/CFS remains incurable. And when I wrote to his clinic asking for information about this apparent FMT miracle cure for ME/CFS, I received no reply, suggesting the cure claim was just bullshit in the first place. So given his past record of exaggeration, I would not believe these current claims that ivermectin can cure coronavirus.

 

 

 

I did some calculations, and found that the concentration of ivermectin used in the in vitro antiviral studies on coronavirus would not be obtainable in vivo, unless you used massive oral doses of ivermectin (ivermectin usually comes in 3 mg tablets, but my calc showed you would need a dose of around 30 grams to have an antiviral effect).

 

So I don't think ivermectin is going to have any useful antiviral effect for coronavirus patients. It's possible ivermectin might have some immune modulating effects which are beneficial for coronavirus infection, but that's something different.

Edited by Hip, 07 August 2020 - 01:51 PM.

[lancebr]

 

 

 

I did some calculations, and found that the concentration of ivermectin used in the in vitro antiviral studies on coronavirus would not be obtainable in vivo, unless you used massive oral doses of ivermectin (ivermectin usually comes in 3 mg tablets, but my calc showed you would need a dose of around 30 grams to have an antiviral effect).

 

So I don't think ivermectin is going to have any useful antiviral effect for coronavirus patients. It's possible ivermectin might have some immune modulating effects which are beneficial for coronavirus infection, but that's something different.

 

 

The idea that you have to use the same amount as what was used in vitro has been discussed in other forums and by other doctors

and have come to the idea that you probably need much less in the human body to get it to work.

 

The amount used in vitro was to kill the virus...but at much lower doses it is believed that it will slow down the replication of the virus

in the body to give the body time to fight and kill it off.

 

Chris Masterjohn believes it works differently in the body compared to how it worked in vitro...."My suspicion is that it might have effects

completely independent of the antiviral properties that prevent the disease from becoming severe and fatal, and that the antiviral properties

shown in vitro might be irrelevant. This framework of understanding ivermectin could reconcile the unsafe high concentrations needed

for antiviral activity in vitro with the apparent utility of the drug in humans."

 

I won't get off onto another subject about FMT and CFS since I don't know a lot about that....but just doing a quick Google search

there are some recent studies over the past few years that seem to show that..."FMT is a promising treatment for CFS" 

 

Edited by lancebr, 07 August 2020 - 02:43 PM.

[Hip]

The amount used in vitro was to kill the virus

 

I do not believe that is the case: the in vitro study found that the IC50 concentration of ivermectin was 2 μM. 

 

The IC50 is the concentration of the antiviral substance which will reduce viral replication by 2-fold (= 50% reduction) in a cell line in vitro. So it is by no means completely killing the virus, it only reduces the viral replication rate by 50%. But the virus is still replicating a lot.

 

Most commercial antivirals are much stronger than that: at the blood concentrations achieved from normal oral dosing, most pharmaceutical antivirals will reduce viral replication by much more, like by 90%, or 99%. 

 

 

To achieve a blood concentration of 2 μM, my calculation showed you would need an oral dose of 11 grams. And even with this extremely high dose, which would probably be toxic or fatal, you only get a 50% reduction in viral replication. It is by no means completely killing the virus

 

 

 

At the concentration of 5 μM, the in vitro study reported SARS-CoV-2 replication was reduce by 5000-fold (= 99.98% reduction). (This would require an oral dose of 30 grams to achieve).

 

So there seems to be a non-linear relationship between ivermectin concentration and viral inhibition, and although you get a 5000-fold reduction at 5 μM, as soon as you drop the concentration down to 2 μM the antiviral effect becomes much much weaker. You can see this non-linear relationship in figure 1 of the study.

Edited by Hip, 07 August 2020 - 02:42 PM.

[geo12the]

I just gave my dog a dose of Ivermectin this morning, its part of his heartworm medication. But there is no evidence it actually works for COVID in humans. Like HCQ we have anecdotal evidence of sporadic doctors who exaggerate it's potential. Would be terrific of it works but I am skeptical. 

Edited by geo12the, 07 August 2020 - 02:54 PM.

[lancebr]

I just gave my dog a dose of Ivermectin this morning, its part of his heartworm medication. But there is no evidence it actually works for COVID in humans. Like HCQ we have anecdotal evidence of sporadic doctors who exaggerate it's potential. Would be terrific of it works but I am skeptical. 

 

Hopefully we will know more information about its effectiveness, or lack of, in a few weeks or months since there are some

clinical trials being done in the U.S. and other countries to see its effectiveness.

 

The only study so far to be released is the one that Chris Masterjohn referenced about it being useful for Covid 19:

 

https://www.medrxiv....6.06.20124461v2

Edited by lancebr, 07 August 2020 - 03:16 PM.

[Florin]

Great article on MedScape on aerosol transmission.  

 

https://www.medscape...D=2484955&faf=1

 

COVID-19 Data Dives: Why Arguments Against SARS-CoV-2 Aerosol Transmission Don't Hold Water

 

It's a long paper, but makes lots of good points.  Bottom line...  Don't sweat the droplets & fomites so much, it's aerosols generated by vocalization that are the most common mode of transmission & pack the greatest infectious punch, as inhaled aerosols are more likely to reach deep into the lungs.  

 

When I'm out & about, I don't watch for and avoid maskless people, I LISTEN for people who are talking around me and change course.  When conversation with others is unavoidable, I try to gauge which way the air in the room might be moving and try to get upwind of whoever is talking.  

 

If you're outdoors and not in a dense crowd, aerosols will get diluted quickly, so transmission is unlikely. Maskless people could still sneeze on you, but that's probably just as unlikely.

 

If you're indoors in a public space, ventilation will be a lot worse, and this will allow aerosols to accumulate and make transmission a lot more likely. Maskless people would cause aerosols to accumulate faster than masked people (droplets that didn't immediately fall to the ground would start to evaporate and turn into aerosols and masks would block at least some of the aerosols in addition to the droplets). But even if everyone wore masks and no one vocalized, aerosols would still accumulate just by breathing. The aerosols would be sucked into the ventilation system and spread around the entire ventilated space. Anyone that's really serious about safety, would want to wear a respirator and eye protection.

[Gal220]

The aerosols would be sucked into the ventilation system and spread around the entire ventilated space. Anyone that's really serious about safety, would want to wear a respirator and eye protection.

 

I strongly agree, if you really dont want to get it, car side pickups are the way to go.  Even if masks were completely effective, I have yet to see any store setting where most people didnt have the nose area properly fitted or didnt pull the mask down past their nose.  Masks also require extremely good hand hygiene, not touching the mask part and sanitizing it nightly(swapping out to different mask).

 

Frontline nurses/doctors  have the best masks, are properly fitted, and they are still getting infected.

[Gal220]

Mercoloa promoting their new website(not sure how long this has been up), StopCovidCold, their minimize your risk page is best if you are looking to point someon in the right direction - link

Interesting way of skirting the accusation they are trying to point people to their supplements for profit, which I thought was never the case anyway.

 

 

The mercola article emphasizes magnesium and B12, dont see that on the new website though.  I rather them just promote a good multi with zinc, selenium, magnesium, all the b Vitamins, and vit D.

 

 

Another thing missing they had on their original top tips page is a reference to diabetes and hypertension, unfortunate they took down the original page.  

[elc202]

are people in this thread still recommending Quercetin?

I found this canadian company that claims their Quercetin has 10x better absorption

[albedo]

COVID-19: Comprehensive synopsis of suggested pathophysiological mechanisms and drug repurposing

 

 repurposed drugs covid19.jpg   317.11KB   0 downloads

 

Binkhorst, M.; Offringa, A.K.; van der Hoeven, J.G. COVID-19: Comprehensive Synopsis of Suggested Pathophysiological Mechanisms and Repurposed Drugs. Preprints 2020, 2020070108 (doi: 10.20944/preprints202007.0108.v1).

Edited by albedo, 12 August 2020 - 07:44 AM.

[Gal220]

are people in this thread still recommending Quercetin?

I found this canadian company that claims their Quercetin has 10x better absorption

 

The Montreal team doing the clinical trial in China says they will use this swiss company

 

"They will use the drug produced by the Swiss company Quercegen Pharmaceuticals, which, according to Chrétien, produces the purest available quercetin"

 

They developed the Q-Force supplement for the DoD which uses QU995

 

They have a patent on QU995

 

"QU995 is designed to enhance the bioavailability of its high content of quercetin. To that end, a small percentage of the supplement consists of QB3C — a proprietary mixture of ingredients believed to stabilize quercetin in liquids and boost the compound’s therapeutic effects"

 

Another comparison chart

 

Most brands use vitc or bromelain to enhance absorbtion, there is also EMIQ (40x absorbtion), probably what you are talking about.

 

Jarrow has a 200 capsule one for $42, and you want to be taking it with extra vitamin c anyway(I would go this route). 

 

Some have speculated its the quercetin metabolites that give you the benefit, but no one really knows.

 

"However, it’s likely that quercetin’s modulation of the gut microbiota, and the bacterially-produced quercetin metabolites (which may be better absorbed?) have a role in its effects.”

 

Lots of options.

[Kalliste]

Bromhexine is cheap and OTC. Might be very useful. With the asymtomatic angle going on I'm taking 2 8mg pills a day one every 12th hours for prevention. 

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[geo12the]

Very interesting podcast last week from Peter Atilia. At points I got lost when they were delving into the different pathways and enzymes but very interesting. I had no idea about the link of COVID and Metformin.

 

#123 – Joan Mannick, M.D. & Nir Barzilai, M.D.: Rapamycin and metformin—longevity, immune enhancement, and COVID-19

 

https://peterattiamd...ck-nirbarzilai/

[albedo]

Very interesting podcast last week from Peter Atilia. At points I got lost when they were delving into the different pathways and enzymes but very interesting. I had no idea about the link of COVID and Metformin.

 

#123 – Joan Mannick, M.D. & Nir Barzilai, M.D.: Rapamycin and metformin—longevity, immune enhancement, and COVID-19

 

https://peterattiamd...ck-nirbarzilai/

 

Interesting. The connection might arise via host immunosenescence decreasing and deregulating host response and increasing frailty, it is where senolytics might help: e.g. see:

 

"...A common characteristic of aging is chronic low-grade inflammation, also known as sterile inflammation (activation of immune response in absence of pathogens). Increased senescence burden influences macrophages, T cells, and natural killer function favoring a switch toward a more immunosuppressive function between young and old tissue microenvironments [23,24]. As the major T lymphoid organ, the thymus regulates T cell repertoire and immune tolerance. Thymic involution with age, is associated with contraction of naïve T cells and decreased capacity of immune response to infection [25]. Senescence occurs during thymic involution, contributing to tissue atrophy, inflammation, and thymopoietic decay [26]. Importantly, senescent T cells bearing dysfunctional mitochondria, have been shown to trigger a type I cytokine storm in peripheral organs, causing an accelerated aging phenotype in mice [27]. Furthermore, increased mTOR activity and mitochondrial oxidative stress have been linked to senescence of hematopoietic progenitor cells in elderly people [28]. Thus, immunosenescence contributes to altered inflammatory response and impaired stem cell function [3,9], which might be explained by incipient senescence activation, sustained secretion of SASP factors and senescence-induced inflammasome activation [29]. Accumulation of senescence and secretion of SASP factors during aging fosters inflammatory responses, alters cellto- cell communication, and limits regeneration thus contributing to tissue dysfunction, frailty, and disability [30–32]. Senescence-associated secretory phenotype (SASP): robust and heterogeneous secretion of soluble modulators by senescent cells, including cytokines, chemokines, growth factors, proteases, and EVs. Senotherapeutics: molecules and strategies that target cellular senescence, which can be classified as senolytics (selective elimination of senescent cells via programmed cell death) and senomorphics/ senostatics (modulation of senescence-associated phenotypes without senolysis)...."

https://doi.org/10.1...tcb.2020.07.002

[Gal220]

Mercola has an interesting article on Swiss Policy Research - another website apparently blacklisted by google, try searching "swiss policy research covid"

 

The lack of results from the Montreal team had me doubting quercetin, this Swiss team is on board I guess.

 

Swiss strategy paper - July 17th

 

Swiss protocol - They are believers in early intervention of HCQ / Quercetin / zinc .  - Updated August 20

 

Bromhexine is mentioned, see above Kalliste post.  Iranian doctors reported in a study with 78 patients a decrease in intensive care treatments of 82%, a decrease in intubations of 89%, and a decrease in deaths of 100%. Chinese doctors reported a 50% reduction in intubations.

 

Seems strange there isnt a mention of other common deficiencies like Vit D, mag, b12, omegas mentioned on the stopcovidcold page.

 

 

Nature was another good resource that popped up during searches

[albedo]

NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS FOR COVID-19 PROPHYLAXIS AND SYMPTOM DE-ESCALATION

https://www.linkedin...m-chris-newton/

consensus covid.PNG

 

Optimal Nutritional Status for a Well-Functioning Immune System Is an Important Factor to Protect against Viral Infections

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC7230749/

consensus covid - 2.PNG

 

A further development: "...This work suggests that individuals who progress to severe disease would benefit from early intervention to prevent sustained activation of the immune system, tissue damage and clotting. https://lnkd.in/eeQf52Y (CONSENSUS-COVID)..."
https://www.linkedin...412575232-uEbI/

[kurdishfella]

I think a antibody drug is more likely to come than a vaccine.

[geo12the]

I am surprised not more research and interest in Vitamin D/ 

 

 

https://www.medrxiv....20152728v1?s=09

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC7250097/

https://elemental.me...19-5bf5885d5288

[Florin]

The senolytic fisetin is currently being tested against COVID-19 in a human clinical trial. The trial was prompted by unpublished research which suggests that fisetin reduces mortality of mice infected with a coronavirus similar to SARS-CoV-2.

 

https://clinicaltria...how/NCT04476953

https://onlinelibrar...1111/joim.13141

Edited by Florin, 22 August 2020 - 07:36 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Since quercetin and fisetin are so similar chemically that doesn't surprise me.  And in humans fisetin is more biologically available, so it may be advantageous.

 

I'm taking 500mg of quercetin prophylactically.  I always thought if I actually came down with covid I'd load up with quercetin, fisetin, and EMIQ.

 

 

[Kimer Med]

There is a petition that people may like to sign to restart research into DRACO, the universal antiviral drug designed to work for nearly all viruses.

www.businessinsider.com/todd-rider-draco-crowdfunding-broad-spectrum-antiviral-2015-12

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRACO

 

Kimer Med is working on replicating the earlier work with DRACO, including testing against SARS-CoV-2, to be followed by clinical trials. If successful, this will be the world's first broad-spectrum antiviral drug.

 

https://kimermed.co.nz/landing

[lancebr]

If you have a way to get a source of breastmilk it looks like it might be useful in the fight against Covid:

 

"In the present study, we demonstrated for the first time that whey protein from human breastmilk significantly

inhibited the infection of SARS-CoV-2 and its related pangolin coronavirus (GX_P2V) in cells model study.

Breastmilk could not only block viral attachment and entry, but also inhibit post-entry viral replication."

 

Whey protein from cows or goats would be the next best thing:

 

"In the present study, we also revealed that whey protein from cow and goat inhibited the infectivity of SARS-CoV-2

pseudovirus and GX_P2V, although the inhibition efficiency was relatively lower compared to that of human whey protein."

 

Also, from this study it seems that lactoferrin by itself does not perform as well as the total whey protein did. Since whey

protein contains lactoferrin, than there must be other things in the whey protein that are making it perform better than

just the lactoferrin by itself.

 

 

https://www.biorxiv....4979v1.full.pdf

 

 

In the study they did use a pseudovirus so that might play a role in the results, but there are other studies in the past showing

how whey protein is useful in improving the immune system.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited by lancebr, 23 August 2020 - 05:32 AM.

[Gal220]

I am surprised not more research and interest in Vitamin D/ 

 

We beat Vitamin D to death several pages back, probably over emphasized on the stopcovidcold page.  Like HCQ/quercetin/zinc, I think it is just one part of a good immune response

 

- diet /exercise /sleep - high sugar really limits your immune response

- vitamin regimen - multi(zinc, vitd, selenium,B12,magnesium) ,  cod liver oil(omegas/natural vit A)  ,  melatonin , quercetin+vit c   are most commonly recommended on wellness sites.

 

You can always do more - garlic / shrooms / natto / nac / hesperiden/ rutin / nad+ ...

[Mind]

We beat Vitamin D to death several pages back, probably over emphasized on the stopcovidcold page.  Like HCQ/quercetin/zinc, I think it is just one part of a good immune response

 

- diet /exercise /sleep - high sugar really limits your immune response

- vitamin regimen - multi(zinc, vitd, selenium,B12,magnesium) ,  cod liver oil(omegas/natural vit A)  ,  melatonin , quercetin+vit c   are most commonly recommended on wellness sites.

 

You can always do more - garlic / shrooms / natto / nac / hesperiden/ rutin / nad+ ...

 

It is almost becoming criminal, the denial (by health bureaucrats) of proper nutrition/health habits, essential supplements/nutrients, HCQ, and antibiotic as treatments for COVID. 

[Ark]

Would Mexicorp Seaweed ( fertilizer ) be safe to take to block the virus.


Based on the study of seaweed being effective antiviral?

[Gal220]

Would Mexicorp Seaweed ( fertilizer ) be safe to take to block the virus.


Based on the study of seaweed being effective antiviral?

 

I think you would need an extract to get a therapeautic dosage, plus you do want something that is food grade - link

 

 

If you havent stocked up on Vitamin C yet, there are some formulations that also give you hesperiden and rutin(also) as possible anti-virals.

 

 

 

Im sure all the self experimenters can appreciate the DIY vaccine some people at MIT are trying, I wonder if any of them have accounts here - link1 , link2

[biggyrat]

It is almost becoming criminal, the denial (by health bureaucrats) of proper nutrition/health habits, essential supplements/nutrients, HCQ, and antibiotic as treatments for COVID. 

Not almost.  

[Gal220]

Another good all in one like the Vitc/hesperidin/rutin combo is Kyolic garilcs 103 immune formulation - aged garlic, mushroom complex, astragalus, oregano, olive leaf. 

 

 

 

LEF and this other thread mention 2 ways to increase immune killer cells - modified rice and AHCC (shroom extract).  Both are a little pricey, something I would do if symptoms.  LEF doesnt recommend taking it year round.

 

 

AHCC study

 

LEF sales pitch

"Aging humans don’t have to succumb to this massive loss of NK cell function. Scientists have uncovered an enzymatically modified rice bran that has been shown to increase NK cell activity in circulating blood cells by up to 84%!11"