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Protecting from Coronavirus - Supplements & Therapies

coronavirus flu disease epidemics viruses immunity covid-19

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#2221 Dorian Grey

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Posted 12 December 2020 - 03:33 AM

Gilead's Billion Dollar Baby

 

https://www.yahoo.co...-133737972.html

 

"The European Union in October agreed to pay more than 1 billion euros ($1.2 billion) to Gilead for a six-month supply."

 

A billion euros?  YIKES!  I had no idea the investment in this unfortunate drug was anywhere near this huge.  Looks like they are expanding the indications for use, to hospitalized patients requiring either low or high flow oxygen.  Too bad the virus is already about done with its replication phase by this stage of the game. 

 

Wonder what a billion euros worth of ivermectin pills all piled together would look like.  The great pyramid of Giza?  


Edited by Dorian Grey, 12 December 2020 - 03:43 AM.

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#2222 bladedmind

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Posted 13 December 2020 - 12:13 AM

COVID-19 Early Treatment Fund (CETF)

FLUVOXAMINE, METFORMIN, FAVIPIRAVIR, NEBULIZED INTERFERON BETA, +

 

The censorship and slander of the Senate early treatment hearing by our neofeudal overlords was shameful and disappointing.   In contrast, here is good news, from honest people, doing the right thing.

 

CETF, bless them,

was created to ensure rapid and successful completion of outpatient clinical trials for effective early treatments for COVID-19, using existing drugs. It’s a bold new approach that offers the shortest path to saving lives. We know that viruses are best treated with antivirals soon after infection. There are existing drugs, including antivirals, that experts believe have the potential to treat COVID-19. These medicines are an untapped resource that could help millions, keeping people out of hospitals and saving lives.  

 

The CETF ensures that outpatient trials for these top drugs are successful….Many only need modest funding to begin. Only the most well-designed trials with the most potential are funded, ensuring independent, objective results.

 

 

https://www.treatear...promising-drugs  I’ll just mention a few highights from this link.  By the way the info updates without notice, the version I looked at today contained considerable new information compared to the version I looked at a few days ago. 

 

Fluvoxamine.   References linked in their text. 

 

With major support from CETF, a randomized, double-blind and fully remote outpatient clinical trial was conducted at the University of Washington in St. Louis….In this trial, of the 80 participants who received the drug, no patients hit the endpoint of clinical deterioration … versus 6 people out of 72 who got the placebo and did reach the clinical endpoint….

 

One week after the study was published, there was a massive COVID outbreak at Golden Gate Fields Racetrack…. In total, 53 employees refused the drug, 6 of them were later hospitalized, an 11.3% hospitalization rate. By contrast, all 62 employees who received the drug for 14 days (50mg BID) had a 0% hospitalization rate (for any reason) and all had very mild symptoms and reported no degradation in pulmonary or cognitive function. These results will be submitted to JAMA soon and the full data will be published….

 

Between the two studies, of the 142 people who took fluvoxamine, there were no hospitalizations for respiratory distress. We are not aware of any drug in the world with more promising initial data.

 

 

Ivermectin.   They are leaving funding of ivermectin to others, and mention that

 

As of December 11, one of the nation's top medical schools is currently looking at deploying both Fluvoxamine and Ivermectin in their clinical practice. We hope to be able to disclose that publicly soon.

 

 

 

Metformin.  
 

…a drug with almost no downsides where there is evidence of a 25% to 50% impact on the virus at all stages of the disease (pre-, post-exposure, post-infection, post-hospitalization)…

 

 

 

Good news for me, I take metformin for Type 2 Diabetes and there was earlier speculation that it interfered with recovery from CV-19.

 

Favipiravir.  

 

There are high hopes for this antiviral from Japan which was first approved to treat influenza. Chinese researchers say that it’s effective, and it has been approved to treat COVID-19 in Russia, China and India.

 

Nebulized interferon beta.  You need an iv-purposed vial of this and a nebulizer to get down. 

 

One of the most promising drugs on our list, Interferon Beta is being studied for the potential to restore the body's ability to fight the virus early.  We are most interested in inhaled route of delivery.

 

The twitter thread of _ice9 contains tens of thousands of entries by multiple people on Covid-19 therapeutics – full of speculation, crosstalk, and references.  That’s where I learned of fluvoxamine, favipiravir, and interferon beta, and searching on those led me to CETF.  This remark by _ice9 typifies the thread:

 

Somehow the ideas that empirical evidence should guide health decisions, and that higher quality evidence is better, were short-circuited into doing nothing at all while awaiting perfect evidence that will never come.

 

 


Edited by bladedmind, 13 December 2020 - 12:44 AM.

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#2223 albedo

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Posted 13 December 2020 - 12:00 PM

In case you have missed it, compelling testimony by Dr Kory:

"I CAN'T KEEP DOING THIS": Doctor pleads for review of data during COVID-19 Senate hearing


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#2224 Mind

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Posted 13 December 2020 - 12:57 PM

In case you have missed it, compelling testimony by Dr Kory:

"I CAN'T KEEP DOING THIS": Doctor pleads for review of data during COVID-19 Senate hearing

 

30 studies unquestionably showing the dramatic benefits of Ivermectin in treating COVID, yet mainstream media (in the US) and social media companies, in conjunction with government bureaucrats continue to suppress this life-saving information (including HCQ and Vitamin D3). Why? Why? Why?


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#2225 shp5

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Posted 13 December 2020 - 03:55 PM

I (leisurely) talked to a few doctors now personally, here in Europe. as long as you don't have a few big RCTs with clear results, they won't do shit. Risk/benefit is not something they concern themselves with, as long as you don't have good evidence for the benefit, so even D3 & Aspirine isn't something they're recommending to outpatients (even though NMH is now gold standard)


Edited by shp5, 13 December 2020 - 03:57 PM.


#2226 Hebbeh

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Posted 13 December 2020 - 06:15 PM

30 studies unquestionably showing the dramatic benefits of Ivermectin in treating COVID, yet mainstream media (in the US) and social media companies, in conjunction with government bureaucrats continue to suppress this life-saving information (including HCQ and Vitamin D3). Why? Why? Why?

 

Doctors and hospitals don't develop treatment protocols from reading mainstream media or social media.  Quite to the contrary, mainstream media reports what is being reported from various medical sources.  If the medical community is not developing effective protocols, that can hardly be blamed on news reporting.

 

The question is why are you always attempting to blame everything on the so called mainstream media?  Shooting the messenger?


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#2227 bladedmind

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Posted 13 December 2020 - 06:50 PM

Replying to #2224 and #2226

 

Argument from authority

 

Beatrice Dupuy, formerly woke journalist for Teen Vogue, now with the Facebook-connected AP Ministry of Truth, factchecks Ivermectin (more at the link). 

 
CLAIM: The antiparasitic drug ivermectin “has a miraculous effectiveness that obliterates” the transmission of COVID-19 and will prevent people from getting sick.
 
AP’S ASSESSMENT: False. There’s no evidence ivermectin has been proven a safe or effective treatment against COVID-19.
 
THE FACTS: During a Senate hearing Tuesday, a group of doctors touted alternative COVID-19 treatments, including ivermectin and the anti-malaria medication hydroxychloroquine. Medical experts have cautioned against using either of those drugs to treat COVID-19. Studies have shown that hydroxychloroquine has no benefit against the coronavirus and can have serious side effects. No evidence has been shown to prove that ivermectin works against COVID-19.
....
In March, an Arizona couple attempted to self-medicate and took chloroquine phosphate, an additive used to clean fish tanks that is also an ingredient in hydroxychloroquine. The woman became gravely ill and the man died.
 

A long time ago I was a biased journalist who did stories like this.  Method:  favor a claim, ask around looking for an “authority” who will endorse my favored claim as truth.  She didn’t review any available evidence, but cited governmental authorities, and out of several thousand available experts quotes one at University of Wisconsin Hospital, who does not do critical care, but does RCTs for iatrogenic infections and concerning the gut microbiome.  Who else is at UWH?  Kory, the critical care specialist who is the target of Dupuy’s factcheck.  Coincidence that the authority Dupuy could get on record is someone at the same institution?  We'd like to know. 

 

 

Argumentum ad hominem

 

Rachel Maddow MSNBC

 

Retweeting NYT’s venomous “news”  story, Elevating Fringe Theories, Ron Johnson Questions Virus Science

 

Whatever Senator Ron Johnson does in the rest of his life, this will follow him forever. This will be what history records him as having done with his time in power, while hundreds of thousands of Americans died, when he could have helped instead.

 

Followed by commenters who call Johnson a Russian operative, fascist, disgusting, disgrace, inferior, brainwashed, criminally insane, election-fixer, horrifyingly ignorant, sick, antiscience, sociopath…

 

Long ago I thought that authoritarianism, dogmatism, and hate-distorted cognition were found only among some on the right.  Now I am convinced that those vices are equally distributed on both sides of the political spectrum.     


Edited by bladedmind, 13 December 2020 - 07:00 PM.

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#2228 pamojja

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Posted 13 December 2020 - 07:02 PM

I (leisurely) talked to a few doctors now personally, here in Europe. as long as you don't have a few big RCTs with clear results, they won't do shit.

 

Unless they are media and government recommented fast-tracked vaccines without safety testing.
 


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#2229 DanCG

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Posted 13 December 2020 - 07:03 PM

Doctors and hospitals don't develop treatment protocols from reading mainstream media or social media.  Quite to the contrary, mainstream media reports what is being reported from various medical sources.  If the medical community is not developing effective protocols, that can hardly be blamed on news reporting.

 

The question is why are you always attempting to blame everything on the so called mainstream media?  Shooting the messenger?

 

The existence of effective treatment is news. Reporters have the capability of finding out about it and reporting it, but they are not. So they deserve criticism. Also, you apparently missed the clause "in conjunction with government bureaucrats".  There appears to be a deliberate effort to maximize fear and minimize hope.


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#2230 Dallasboy

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Posted 13 December 2020 - 07:05 PM

MSM is propaganda political poison.  Better ways to spend your time.


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#2231 Hebbeh

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Posted 13 December 2020 - 07:48 PM

Replying to #2224 and #2226

 

Argument from authority

 

A long time ago I was a biased journalist who did stories like this.  Method:  favor a claim, ask around looking for an “authority” who will endorse my favored claim as truth.  

 

Point taken on biased journalism but that's not the issue questioned.

 

It's beyond belief that almost all doctors and hospitals would be basing treatment protocols solely on mainstream news accounts rather than the traditional methods of consulting among their peers and established university based research hospitals through the traditional communication channels.

 

Why would virtually all doctors and hospitals suddenly now abandon the methods that have traditionally served them so well in the past?


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#2232 albedo

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Posted 13 December 2020 - 08:59 PM

Sorry, you must know this already, but who is publishing these reports?

https://c19study.com/

https://c19ivermectin.com/

https://c19vitamind.com/

https://c19zinc.com/

https://c19regn.com/

https://c19ly.com/

https://c19rmd.com/


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#2233 Gal220

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Posted 13 December 2020 - 09:31 PM

The question is why are you always attempting to blame everything on the so called mainstream media?  Shooting the messenger?

 

Fauci and Remdesivir should have been called out by the media.  The media could be asking pointed questions to these bureaucrats and putting pressure on them to answer why Ivermectin isnt approved.

 

The local hospital where I am at has 4 floors of covid patients, yet according to Zalenko, we had a treatment early on with HCQ that would have reduced hospitalizations by 84%.  How many lives, jobs, and businesses would that have saved if the media had done its job(there are a few media outlets questioning whats going on). 

 

Ivermectin is in the same boat, with even more favorable results as it helps before and after hospitalization. 

 

 

I think it would probably be best if each state in the US developed its own protocol with the CDC/FDA just playing an advisory role.  Hopefully a few states will have the wherewithal to keep up and approve proven drugs.


Edited by Gal220, 13 December 2020 - 09:33 PM.

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#2234 Dorian Grey

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Posted 13 December 2020 - 09:53 PM

Point taken on biased journalism but that's not the issue questioned.

 

It's beyond belief that almost all doctors and hospitals would be basing treatment protocols solely on mainstream news accounts rather than the traditional methods of consulting among their peers and established university based research hospitals through the traditional communication channels.

 

Why would virtually all doctors and hospitals suddenly now abandon the methods that have traditionally served them so well in the past?

 

Big Pharma, the FDA & NIH are all one in the same, & with pharmaceutical advertising a huge chunk of network profits, they control everything reported by the media too.  

 

My doc said he would love to prescribe HCQ for me if I wanted it, but he was bound by the formulary of his group which followed FDA prescribing guidelines.  

 

When Big Pharma wants to introduce a new drug to market, safety and efficacy trials are performed by them, so there is a strong bias inherent in their trials.  This has led to extremely elaborate & expensive multi-center randomized/blinded & placebo controlled trials, which have evolved into the only "proven" method for FDA approval.  The millions of dollars these elaborate trials cost is not prohibitive if you stand to make a billion of the new med.  

 

Big Pharma's revenge has evolved into this elaborate approval process now being applied to off-label use of existing cheap generics for new purposes, which all but guarantees only new drugs will gain approval, as the process is much too expensive to be applied to meds that are no longer profitable.  

 

If, in the heat of a pandemic, some cheap generic does happen to gain momentum for off label use, Big Pharma can halt the process by offering to sponsor a huge RCT to prove safety and effectiveness before the FDA gives its approval.  Then, all they need to do is sabotage the trial to bury the potential med.  Recovery/Solidarity trial of HCQ is a perfect example.  Limit the trials to hospitalized patients, then overdose them to expose the meds sole weakness (cardiac effects of overdosing).  

 

I can't wait to see how they bury ivermectin as it gains attention as a remarkably cheap, safe & effective therapeutic during the Winter crisis.  Perhaps the HCQ wars have already doomed any chance of acceptance.  Resistance is futile...  You will be given remdesivir!  Please make sure your affairs are in order.  


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#2235 bladedmind

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Posted 13 December 2020 - 11:21 PM

Point taken on biased journalism but that's not the issue questioned.

 

It's beyond belief that almost all doctors and hospitals would be basing treatment protocols solely on mainstream news accounts rather than the traditional methods of consulting among their peers and established university based research hospitals through the traditional communication channels.

 

Why would virtually all doctors and hospitals suddenly now abandon the methods that have traditionally served them so well in the past?

 

Mass media or medical consensus?  Spurious correlation.  A third force influences both in the same direction.  The medical-industrial complex.  Not sadistically evil or back-room conspiratorial, but people incentivized by high rewards to cut a corner, bend the truth, misdesign a trial intending to take out a competitor, advocate regulations with.a slant towards their partial interest, create a bureaucracy that favors expensive new drugs over cheaper old drugs, to wine and dine and hire government officials and journalists, and fool themselves with the rationalization that they are doing net good, at least for their family and maybe humanity.  The many petty corruptions can add up to a grand corruption.  Look at Perdue and oxycontin, and McKinsey’s dastardly schemes to reward distributors for increased overdoses or greater incidence of opioid disorders.  Are you surprised?  Lovely people, wonderfully educated, liberals, supporters of humanitarian causes, but the money is so big. 

 

The oligopolization of the news media and social media further privileges oligarchic interests and incentivizes conformity beyond the already natural tendency towards it. 

 

About ten years ago I accidentally wandered into a medical “conference” at a posh seaside hotel, sponsored by a pharmaceutical company.   Add to your CV!  It was like decadent ancient Rome.  Elegant food, endless alcohol, both for free, live music, and lots of dateable reps.  MDs are not corrupt, most do great service, but there are larger influences that draw hurried people of good will in directions that they would not endorse if fully informed and not subtly misled.  


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#2236 Hebbeh

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Posted 13 December 2020 - 11:55 PM

Fauci and Remdesivir should have been called out by the media.  The media could be asking pointed questions to these bureaucrats and putting pressure on them to answer why Ivermectin isnt approved.

 

How many lives, jobs, and businesses would that have saved if the media had done its job(there are a few media outlets questioning whats going on). 

 

I see.  The media should of been more knowledgeable about treatments for an unusual once in a hundred year pandemic that had the medical community stumped so that these medical experts could of been exposed for, I don't know, for something and in the process the media should of saved countless lives, jobs, and businesses.  And here I've been seeing my doctor for medical advice when I should of been consulting the local reporters.  Who would of known.


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#2237 Hebbeh

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Posted 14 December 2020 - 12:12 AM

If the conspiracy theory of both corrupt mass media and the corrupt medical-industrial complex conspired to bury potential earth shattering and life saving treatment protocols for mutual self serving financial gain, then practically every doctor and hospital on earth was in on the scam and not a single individual in the medical community spilled the beans.  Other than a small handful making You Tube videos apparently.  I seem to remember the wisdom of only 2 people can keep a secret if...

 

 

Mass media or medical consensus?  Spurious correlation.  A third force influences both in the same direction.  The medical-industrial complex.  Not sadistically evil or back-room conspiratorial, but people incentivized by high rewards to cut a corner, bend the truth, misdesign a trial intending to take out a competitor, advocate regulations with.a slant towards their partial interest, create a bureaucracy that favors expensive new drugs over cheaper old drugs, to wine and dine and hire government officials and journalists, and fool themselves with the rationalization that they are doing net good, at least for their family and maybe humanity.  The many petty corruptions can add up to a grand corruption.  Look at Perdue and oxycontin, and McKinsey’s dastardly schemes to reward distributors for increased overdoses or greater incidence of opioid disorders.  Are you surprised?  Lovely people, wonderfully educated, liberals, supporters of humanitarian causes, but the money is so big. 

 

The oligopolization of the news media and social media further privileges oligarchic interests and incentivizes conformity beyond the already natural tendency towards it. 

 

About ten years ago I accidentally wandered into a medical “conference” at a posh seaside hotel, sponsored by a pharmaceutical company.   Add to your CV!  It was like decadent ancient Rome.  Elegant food, endless alcohol, both for free, live music, and lots of dateable reps.  MDs are not corrupt, most do great service, but there are larger influences that draw hurried people of good will in directions that they would not endorse if fully informed and not subtly misled.  

 


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#2238 adamh

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Posted 14 December 2020 - 12:26 AM

I have come to the conclusion that covid which may have been deadly at first, has mutated into a nearly harmless form by now. Its about as bad as the flu which used to kill 40,000 to 80,000+ per year in usa alone. I say used to because it seems no one dies of flu anymore. Its all covid even if it isn't, if you get my drift. Why would hospitals and doctors say a hospitalization or death was due to covid and not some other condition? Money, thats why. They get around $40k for each patient put on a ventilator and apparently lesser amounts for other treatments or death.

 

In usa, the death rate for this year is slightly less than last year or any of the last 10 years. Does that sound like covid is killing people right and left? But we are forced to wear useless paper or cloth masks, remain quarantined, busuinesses are shut down and many never reopen, people lose their jobs, depression and suicide skyrocket. Yet so many people have seemingly unlimited faith in authority figures they will do almost anything asked of them. "the media wouldn't all lie to us would it?" Yes, the media would and does lie to us on a daily basis. The days of walter cronkite and murrow are long gone. They would not recognize what their profession has turned into today


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#2239 Hebbeh

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Posted 14 December 2020 - 02:12 AM

I have come to the conclusion that covid which may have been deadly at first, has mutated into a nearly harmless form by now. Its about as bad as the flu which used to kill 40,000 to 80,000+ per year in usa alone. I say used to because it seems no one dies of flu anymore. Its all covid even if it isn't, if you get my drift. Why would hospitals and doctors say a hospitalization or death was due to covid and not some other condition? Money, thats why. They get around $40k for each patient put on a ventilator and apparently lesser amounts for other treatments or death.

 

In usa, the death rate for this year is slightly less than last year or any of the last 10 years. Does that sound like covid is killing people right and left? But we are forced to wear useless paper or cloth masks, remain quarantined, busuinesses are shut down and many never reopen, people lose their jobs, depression and suicide skyrocket. Yet so many people have seemingly unlimited faith in authority figures they will do almost anything asked of them. "the media wouldn't all lie to us would it?" Yes, the media would and does lie to us on a daily basis. The days of walter cronkite and murrow are long gone. They would not recognize what their profession has turned into today

 

If anybody is lying, it would be the doctors and hospitals as that is where the numbers are coming from.  The media isn't making up numbers and the data is easily cross verified from many sources.

 

And the statement that covid has mutated into a nearly harmless form is about a ridiculous conspiracy theory as they come with a record 3300+ US deaths just Friday with no end in site.  We are well over 300K deaths in just the past 9 months with the figure probably closer to 400K as the number of "excess" deaths are over 400K for the year.  The filled hospital beds in many parts of the country are at all time highs and in some areas, doctors have resorted to making house calls due to lack of beds.

 

And it's possible that flu numbers are down due to the covid safeguards in place of mask use, social distancing, travel restrictions, and shut downs.  If any of those have a positive impact on covid numbers, then they would also surely do the same to flu.

 

Also, if you have known any covid sufferers, you would realize there is a big and obvious difference in the symptoms of flu vs covid.  And if it was just a harmless flu bug now, we wouldn't have the educated members of this forum doing everything in their power to address the treatment of or methods to avoid being infected with this deadly virus that if it doesn't kill you, then you may have life altering symptoms that hang on for months that may stretch into years (long haulers).  I personally know people that are in both categories.  And not all these people are old and most were in relatively good health with none of the usual health issues before being infected.

 

By the time next March rolls around and we are into the first year, deaths very likely could total more than half a million in the US alone.

 

 


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#2240 Gal220

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Posted 14 December 2020 - 02:53 AM

I see.  The media should of been more knowledgeable about treatments for an unusual once in a hundred year pandemic that had the medical community stumped so that these medical experts could of been exposed for, I don't know, for something and in the process the media should of saved countless lives, jobs, and businesses.  And here I've been seeing my doctor for medical advice when I should of been consulting the local reporters.  Who would of known.

 

Well it is kind of their job to find out the truth, supposedly ...

 

Journalism isnt completely dead, but it is on life support.  Heres one example


Edited by Gal220, 14 December 2020 - 02:59 AM.


#2241 Gal220

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Posted 14 December 2020 - 04:39 PM

If anybody is lying, it would be the doctors and hospitals as that is where the numbers are coming from

 

To be sure, this list of doctors prescribing Ivermection should be much larger, like the media, they should be putting pressure on the FDA to approve it.



#2242 bladedmind

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Posted 14 December 2020 - 08:01 PM

If the conspiracy theory of both corrupt mass media and the corrupt medical-industrial complex conspired to bury potential earth shattering and life saving treatment protocols for mutual self serving financial gain, then practically every doctor and hospital on earth was in on the scam and not a single individual in the medical community spilled the beans.  

 

Conspiracy theory! is not an argument.  We do our best to design public institutions that apply policies and make decisions that are both fair and accurate.   A good part of that design has to do with disincentivizing the abundance of self-serving or erroneous views.  Even the best institutions imperfectly succeed at that goal.  Thousands of intended petty corruptions can add up to an unintended grand corruption.  If steel companies share common interests, each can seek and policymakers can provide, even if the companies never communicate with one another.   See GIlens and Page on who rules America and  Winters and Page on oligarchy in the U.S.   These are mainstream political scientists at top institutions, not fringe bloggers. 

 

Additionally, as OP here, almost everyone outside their narrow range of expertise evaluates new information not by personal investigation but on the basis of their estimate of the credibility of the messengers. That is how epistemic bubbles can emerge - and propagandists know how take advantage of our reliance on social proof. 

 

In the U.S., useless Remdesivir is approved; useful aspirin or Vitamin D are ignored.  There is no global conspiracy:  breakthroughs are coming from outside the US CDC-FDA-NIH-BigPharma bubble.

 

I don’t want to out myself so I’ll be a bit vague – I am familiar with public policy analysis, social science, causal identification, research design, philosophy of science. 

 

Multisite, blinded, random controlled trials do provide very good evidence that something is efficacious and safe.  They do NOT necessarily show that something doesn’t work – accidentally or deliberately they can, for example, be underdosed or dangerously overdosed, omit  a necessary cotreatment, be administered at the wrong phase of the disease, and so on.  

 

There is an influential movement to demand RCTs for public policy decisions.  It is salutary in focusing our attention on fallacies of causal inference.  Like their counterparts in public health, however, many of these advocates can be zealous, dogmatic, and ultimately unscientific.  To borrow from legal terminology, their method demands that decisions be based on a standard of beyond a reasonable doubt.  But, in public policy, as in public health, failure to act can do harm, can kill.  Most such decisions (especially in an emergency pandemic that kills and disables) should be based on the standard of the preponderance of the evidence (or where equities demand, clear and convincing evidence), based on the entirety of established principles and available evidence, appropriately weighted for quality.   The U.S. Constitution, and the victory of the Allies in World War Two, were not based on evidence from public-policy RCTs. 

 

During this pandemic, U.S. public health has been exposed in a gross albeit unintended hypocrisy.  If multisite, blinded, random controlled trials are the standard for public decision, then all of the recommended or required Covid-19 public-health social measures (which I personally accept) are not justified and can’t be imposed.  Handwashing, masks, social distancing, lockdowns, testing and tracing, and the lot.   These measures have NOT been shown efficacious and safe with highest quality RCT evidence for Covid-19.  They can satisfy common sense, they can be based on reasonable extrapolation from established principles, they can have good evidence – but not evidence beyond a reasonable doubt based on multiple well-designed RCTs.  Even if strongly supported in general, they have not been shown to be efficacious and safe for the Coviud-19 disease, for the disease in the United States, for all age groups, races, genders, and so on. 

 

Safety is important.   Repurposing of old treatments should preferably focus on items that are well-established as relatively safe, like aspirin, Vitamin D, Ivermectin.  If their efficacy is probable rather than nearly certain, it is likely that some good and little harm has been done.  Handwashing and masks are relatively safe, and are supported by good but not perfect evidence.  Universal lockdown does immense harm, quite plausibly more harm than good in terms of lost life years (we need and practically will never get multiple RCTs – for perfect knowledge we can’t compare Sweden, Norway, and U.K. because treatment is not randomized – there are too many potential confounds).   

 

Can we compare the benefits and costs of aggressive lockdown to those of a regime of prophylaxis and early treatment with cheap and safe repurposed treatments?  According to U.S. public health, only good evidence is required for even a coercive social measure, but perfect evidence is required for a direct medical measure.  We cannot risk any harm by allowing a pharmaceutical measure, but can freely risk harm by forbidding a pharmaceutical measure, and can freely risk harm by imposing draconian social measures.   

 

But, but, but tens of thousands of highly educated and well-intentioned people in respectable institutions do endorse these absurdly inconsistent policy positions!  Not an argument,  That’s the bandwagon fallacy.  Thousands of obstetricians firmly believed that handwashing was not required during delivery and fiercely persecuted Semmelweiss who first advocated for it. 

 

Sorry for going too long, got carried away,  I’m working this out in my own mind.    


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#2243 shp5

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Posted 14 December 2020 - 10:48 PM

as you say, pharmaceutical interventions happen within a strong tradition of evidence-based decision making. general policy measures & emergency legislation don't, at all. the collision of both these decision making mechanisms during the pandemic serves to emphasize the arbitrariness of most general policy measures. there's nothing to work out here. general policy is terribly flawed, and I reckon the the major source of lost utility worldwide - think of what medicine used to be 100 years ago. a mess, compared to other sciences.


Edited by shp5, 14 December 2020 - 10:51 PM.

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#2244 geo12the

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 01:08 AM

Interesting new potential drug Molnupiravir :

 

Nat Microbiol
 
 
2020 Dec 3.
 doi: 10.1038/s41564-020-00835-2. Online ahead of print.
Therapeutically administered ribonucleoside analogue MK-4482/EIDD-2801 blocks SARS-CoV-2 transmission in ferrets
Affiliations expand
Abstract

The coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic is having a catastrophic impact on human health1. Widespread community transmission has triggered stringent distancing measures with severe socio-economic consequences. Gaining control of the pandemic will depend on the interruption of transmission chains until vaccine-induced or naturally acquired protective herd immunity arises. However, approved antiviral treatments such as remdesivir and reconvalescent serum cannot be delivered orally2,3, making them poorly suitable for transmission control. We previously reported the development of an orally efficacious ribonucleoside analogue inhibitor of influenza viruses, MK-4482/EIDD-2801 (refs. 4,5), that was repurposed for use against severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) and is currently in phase II/III clinical trials (NCT04405570 and NCT04405739). Here, we explored the efficacy of therapeutically administered MK-4482/EIDD-2801 to mitigate SARS-CoV-2 infection and block transmission in the ferret model, given that ferrets and related members of the weasel genus transmit the virus efficiently with minimal clinical signs6-9, which resembles the spread in the human young-adult population. We demonstrate high SARS-CoV-2 burden in nasal tissues and secretions, which coincided with efficient transmission through direct contact. Therapeutic treatment of infected animals with MK-4482/EIDD-2801 twice a day significantly reduced the SARS-CoV-2 load in the upper respiratory tract and completely suppressed spread to untreated contact animals. This study identified oral MK-4482/EIDD-2801 as a promising antiviral countermeasure to break SARS-CoV-2 community transmission chains.

 


Edited by geo12the, 15 December 2020 - 01:11 AM.

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#2245 albedo

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 11:25 AM

Safety and Efficacy of the BNT162b2 mRNA Covid-19 Vaccine | NEJM

https://www.nejm.org...6/NEJMoa2034577


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#2246 lancebr

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 08:08 PM

A New Strain Of Covid-19 Has Emerged In England

 

https://www.forbes.c...sh=38d4c69870f6

 

"Britain’s Health Secretary Matt Hancock told politicians Monday that a “new variant” of Covid-19 had been discovered in England

where it had infected over a 1,000 people in the south of the country where cases have been rising dramatically, leading many to

question whether the new mutant strain is capable of spreading more easily, causing worse symptoms or potentially rendering the

new vaccines ineffective."

 

 


Edited by lancebr, 15 December 2020 - 08:09 PM.

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#2247 albedo

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 10:35 PM

A New Strain Of Covid-19 Has Emerged In England

 

https://www.forbes.c...sh=38d4c69870f6

 

"Britain’s Health Secretary Matt Hancock told politicians Monday that a “new variant” of Covid-19 had been discovered in England

where it had infected over a 1,000 people in the south of the country where cases have been rising dramatically, leading many to

question whether the new mutant strain is capable of spreading more easily, causing worse symptoms or potentially rendering the

new vaccines ineffective."

 

Should this behaves differently that 20A.EU1/2 already discovered by Emma Hodcroft sometime ago? I do not know. The article here is updated last Monday Dec 14:

https://newseu.cgtn....82pq/index.html
 



#2248 Mind

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 04:07 PM

Point taken on biased journalism but that's not the issue questioned.

 

It's beyond belief that almost all doctors and hospitals would be basing treatment protocols solely on mainstream news accounts rather than the traditional methods of consulting among their peers and established university based research hospitals through the traditional communication channels.

 

Why would virtually all doctors and hospitals suddenly now abandon the methods that have traditionally served them so well in the past?

 

Thousands of doctors around the world are consulting among their peers and essentially "screaming at the top of their lungs" that some treatments work very well. It just isn't being reported in the U.S. media and the health bureaucracies are not helping.

 

Remember that the FDA banned the use of HCQ earlier this year, even though it is safe and doctors were seeing great success with it, especially in combination with Zinc and antibiotics. Poorly designed trials of HCQ as a stand-alone therapy - used on patients who were already hospitalized and/or intubated were trumpeted in the U.S. media as "proof" the HCQ was ineffective and/or dangerous.

 

Harvey Risch pointed out how HCQ needs to be used in order to be effective....ignored. All of the research (multiple gold standard RCT trials) showing dramatic results with Ivermectin...ignored. America's frontline doctors group....ignored. These doctors and PHDs.....ignored. Executive editor of BMJ...ignored. The doctor presenting evidence to congress about Ivermectin, not only ignored, but derided as a political hack. The signatories of the Great Barrington declaration....ignored.

 

After a while, it is not hard to believe that there are ulterior motives, other than human health.


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#2249 Dallasboy

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 04:17 PM

For anyone doubting the nasty political motives and the dangers and lies of all MSM, AMA reversed their recommendation of HCQ now that the election is over:

 

https://lenbilen.com...id-19-patients/

 

https://www.ama-assn...ok-addendum.pdf

 

 

Disgusting!


Edited by Dallasboy, 16 December 2020 - 04:19 PM.

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#2250 Gal220

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 09:39 PM

For anyone doubting the nasty political motives and the dangers and lies of all MSM, AMA reversed their recommendation of HCQ now that the election is over:

 

https://lenbilen.com...id-19-patients/

 

https://www.ama-assn...ok-addendum.pdf

 

 

Disgusting!

 

Ultimately they chose not to rescind it, just up for consideration, probably because they didnt want to be called out for deaths due to politics .. better to keep letting people die instead of admit the wrong doing.


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