3083 replies to this topic

[elc202]

https://www.reddit.c...nigella_sativa/

[xEva]

I dont know if it is the same study, but they just reported on the news that a study was

released today that was of 40 patients and designed very well scientifically and of those

40 patients all had a 100% cure rate using hydrochloroquine.

 

The doctor said that the FDA should give immediate clearance to use the drug for this

type of treatment.  They also said in the news that Trump is holding a special news conference

tomorrow with the FDA for some "exciting" news.

 

I am guessing it might be just for that topic.
 

 

They had 20 patients receiving hydroxychloroquine and only 6 of those were also getting azithromycin, the rest were controls. They started with a slightly larger group, but several were dropped out of the study for various reasons, the most significant being when they were moved to the ICU (!)

 

So, this was tested on patients with mild symptoms. Plus there is this mention:

 

The cause of failure for hydroxychloroquine treatment should be investigated by testing the isolated SARS-CoV-2 strains of the non-respondents and analyzing their genome, and by analyzing the host factors that may be associated with the metabolism of hydroxychloroquine. The existence of hydroxychloroquine failure in two patients (mother and son) is more suggestive of the last mechanism of resistance

 

 

Interesting that the Chinese study which was posted up the thread used hydroxychloroquine at the onset of worsening symptoms only. But indeed, why wait?

Edited by xEva, 19 March 2020 - 04:33 AM.

[xEva]

If we have to self medicate and have access to hydroxychloroquine then would doxycyline be a

good substitute for the azithromycin used in the study?

 

 

 

no, they are two different classes of antibiotics, and the quotes you give apply to their use for bacterial infections.

 

I suppose you could go for another macrolide antibiotic instead of azithromycin, but you cannot substitute it with a tetracycline, which is doxycycline.

Edited by xEva, 19 March 2020 - 04:40 AM.

[lancebr]

no, they are two different classes of antibiotics, and the quotes you give apply to their use for bacterial infections.

 

I suppose you could go for another macrolide antibiotic instead of azithromycin, but you cannot substitute it with a tetracycline, which is doxycycline.

 

Korea just used the hydroxychloroquine by itself without any antibiotic...so would just the

hydroxychloroquine by itself be enough to fight this virus?
 

[xEva]

Korea just used the hydroxychloroquine by itself without any antibiotic...so would just the

hydroxychloroquine by itself be enough to fight this virus?
 

 

In that French study they had a better response with azithromycin. But again, that was only 6 patients.

 

Somewhere today I bumped into this quote (could be the same French study-?):

 

Azithromycin has been shown to be active in vitro against Zika and Ebola viruses [20-22] and to prevent severe respiratory tract infections when administrated to patients suffering viral infection

[kurdishfella]

I have been mildy sick for like 3 weeks and just yesterday I get a random itch in my throat and start coughing lightly and it was a weird dry cough.. it lasted like 30 seconds because I got scared and took some lithium and the cough went away. I already knew I had covid 19 since like day 3 or something I could just sense it you feel different. After the lithium I feel like my lungs are very warm. I expect the worst to come soon! And you do feel shitty and down. I thought my coughing would build up over night since you do not cough while asleep or something.

Edited by kurdishfella, 19 March 2020 - 07:41 AM.

[lancebr]

I have been mildy sick for like 3 weeks and just yesterday I get a random itch in my throat and start coughing lightly and it was a weird dry cough.. it lasted like 30 seconds because I got scared and took some lithium and the cough went away. I already knew I had covid 19 since like day 3 or something I could just sense it you feel different. After the lithium I feel like my lungs are very warm. I expect the worst to come soon! And you do feel shitty and down. I thought my coughing would build up over night since you do not cough while asleep or something.

 

Is lithium good for fighting this virus?

[kurdishfella]

Is lithium good for fighting this virus?

idk it has antiviral effects maybe my cough was gonna stop anyway and it was just a coincidence.

[HBRU]

Azitromicyn helpful ?
Interesting. It seems the virus targets senesent cells and Azitromicyn just kill them quicker so not producing so much viruses ?!?

[Daniel Cooper]

Azitromicyn helpful ?
Interesting. It seems the virus targets senesent cells and Azitromicyn just kill them quicker so not producing so much viruses ?!?

 

 

Azithromycin has been identified as a senolytic so that might indeed be the mechanism.

 

Likewise Quercetin has been identified as having anti coronavirus activity and it also is a senolytic.  Ditto Dasatinib.  Ditto Luetolin.

 

So, there's four senolytics that have been identified as having anti coronavirus activity.

 

 

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 19 March 2020 - 02:51 PM.

[lancebr]

Azithromycin has been identified as a senolytic so that might indeed be the mechanism.

 

Likewise Quercetin has been identified as having anti coronavirus activity and it also is a senolytic.  Ditto Dasatinib.  Ditto Luetolin.

 

So, there's four senolytics that have been identified as having anti coronavirus activity.

 

So, quercetin and luetolin can be obtained without prescription so out of the two which show to be

a better option to fight this virus?

 

Also, are they better to take as a preventative measure or use when get the virus?

 

Thanks

[lancebr]

Trump is talking about hydroxychloroquine and it effectiveness and that the

FDA will give clearance to make the drug available for immediate use against this virus.

Edited by lancebr, 19 March 2020 - 03:22 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

So, quercetin and luetolin can be obtained without prescription so out of the two which show to be

a better option to fight this virus?

 

Also, are they better to take as a preventative measure or use when get the virus?

 

Thanks

 

I'm taking a couple of hundred milligrams of quercetin right now.  Don't believe that it will have any negative effect. Have no idea how useful it is.  The problem is that quercetin and luteolin are not very bioavailable.  Azithromycin on the other hand is.

 

Dasatinib is also available on the internet if you know where to look.

 

I wonder what other senolytics are out there that are bioavailable and can be easily purchased and whether anyone has looked at them for anti-coronavirus activity.

 

If I were the FOX04-DRI researchers I'd be testing that peptide right now against covid-19.  Since it rapidly clearls all types of senolytic cells that might be interesting and a way to get a ton of research money poured into what they're doing.

[lancebr]

I'm taking a couple of hundred milligrams of quercetin right now.  Don't believe that it will have any negative effect. Have no idea how useful it is.  The problem is that quercetin and luteolin are not very bioavailable.  Azithromycin on the other hand is.

 

Dasatinib is also available on the internet if you know where to look.

 

I wonder what other senolytics are out there that are bioavailable and can be easily purchased and whether anyone has looked at them for anti-coronavirus activity.

 

If I were the FOX04-DRI researchers I'd be testing that peptide right now against covid-19.  Since it rapidly clearls all types of senolytic cells that might be interesting and a way to get a ton of research money poured into what they're doing.

 

So when you say that quercetin and luteolin are not very bioavailable...do they really offer any help for the body then?
 

[Daniel Cooper]

So when you say that quercetin and luteolin are not very bioavailable...do they really offer any help for the body then?
 

 

I just don't have the answer for that.  They might.  Quercetin seems to have a senolytic activity in humans when taken orally.  You've got people here doing 500mg/day cycles every 6 months or so.  But there's just not enough information to give you an accurate answer at this time.  It's fairly cheap and it isn't going to harm you, so if you want to take it prophylacticly that's not unreasonable. 

 

If senescent cells are the key, that would be a good explanation for why no one under about 15 years old has died from this thing and very young kids don't seem to get it at all.  They have virtually no senescent cells.

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 19 March 2020 - 03:45 PM.

[xEva]

If senescent cells are the key, that would be a good explanation for why no one under about 15 years old has died from this thing and very young kids don't seem to get it at all.  They have virtually no senescent cells.

 

All drugs have multiple interactions with individual metabolism. Being senolytic is only one action of azyithromycin which recently became known. Its first known action is antibiotic against certain bacteria. Its second known action is antiviral, against some viruses. There must be other actions I'm not aware of or no one knows, yet.

 

To say that senescent cells must be the key and => other senolytics might work against COVID-19 seems premature

 

...though not entirely unreasonable. In fact I happen to look at the ingredients of the most popular TCM concoctions that were used in Chinese hospitals to treat COVID-19 ( in addition to chloroquine and other western medecine interventions). I noticed that at the top of the list was an herb high in quercetin, and the other herb happen to be high in resveratrol -- these 2 I just happen to remember. There were ~8-9 other herbs in that formulation.

 

Those complex TCM concoctions are known to have very complex interactions (ex some herbs provide certain substances, others aid in absorption, yet others induce or block relevant metabolic enzymes, etc.) 

 

That was in the Chinese paper posted by pamojja up this thread (or the other thread?) in rtf format.

 

 

[Oakman]

So when you say that quercetin and luteolin are not very bioavailable...do they really offer any help for the body then?
 

 

EMIQ is a better alternative to regular quercetin, with up to x40 bioavailability. It's normally available on Amazon, but many of the brands offered are currently out of stock. There are still some available. You can tell the problem with regular quercetin, in that virtually every vendor combines it with bromelain or some other thing to try an increase it potency, likely with minimal effect.

[Daniel Cooper]

All drugs have multiple interactions with individual metabolism. Being senolytic is only one action of azyithromycin which recently became known. Its first known action is antibiotic against certain bacteria. Its second known action is antiviral, against some viruses. There must be other actions I'm not aware of or no one knows, yet.

 

To say that senescent cells must be the key and => other senolytics might work against COVID-19 seems premature

 

...though not entirely unreasonable. In fact I happen to look at the ingredients of the most popular TCM concoctions that were used in Chinese hospitals to treat COVID-19 ( in addition to chloroquine and other western medecine interventions). I noticed that at the top of the list was an herb high in quercetin, and the other herb happen to be high in resveratrol -- these 2 I just happen to remember. There were ~8-9 other herbs in that formulation.

 

Those complex TCM concoctions are known to have very complex interactions (ex some herbs provide certain substances, others aid in absorption, yet others induce or block relevant metabolic enzymes, etc.) 

 

That was in the Chinese paper posted by pamojja up this thread (or the other thread?) in rtf format.

 

 

You did notice that I said "if", right?

 

But, we do have four different (azithromycin, dasatinib, quercetin, and luetolin) known senolytics on the table that have been shown to have an anti-coronavirus activity and we have the evidence that the very young don't seem to get this disease.  Also, it has been independently proposed that covid-19 preferentially takes over senescent cells to reproduce itself.   So we have the beginnings of a pretty decent circumstantial case here. 

 

No one is saying that the silver bullet has been found, we're just discussing some interesting findings and making some connections.  Time will tell.

 

 

EMIQ is a better alternative to regular quercetin, with up to x40 bioavailability. It's normally available on Amazon, but many of the brands offered are currently out of stock. There are still some available. You can tell the problem with regular quercetin, in that virtually every vendor combines it with bromelain or some other thing to try an increase it potency, likely with minimal effect.

 

 

Yeah, I thought about putting EMIQ out there.  My only hesitancy is that quercetin is what was actually tested.  I'd bet real money that EMIQ would work too, and have much better bioavailablity.

[xEva]

You did notice that I said "if", right?

 

But, we do have four different (azithromycin, dasatinib, quercetin, and luetolin) known senolytics on the table that have been shown to have an anti-coronavirus activity and we have the evidence that the very young don't seem to get this disease.  Also, it has been independently proposed that covid-19 preferentially takes over senescent cells to reproduce itself.   So we have the beginnings of a pretty decent circumstantial case here. 

 

No one is saying that the silver bullet has been found, we're just discussing some interesting findings and making some connections.  Time will tell.

 

 

 

I did see the 'if'.

 

re: "it has been independently proposed that covid-19 preferentially takes over senescent cells to reproduce itself."

 

I must have missed that! Do you have the link?

 

 

And sorry for sounding boring, but I swear I saw the beginning of an internet legend in the making and though I'd apply the breaks on it.

[lancebr]

EMIQ is a better alternative to regular quercetin, with up to x40 bioavailability. It's normally available on Amazon, but many of the brands offered are currently out of stock. There are still some available. You can tell the problem with regular quercetin, in that virtually every vendor combines it with bromelain or some other thing to try an increase it potency, likely with minimal effect.

 

Are you using quercetin or emiq?

 

I noticed that the EMIQ is in lower doses like 50mg....is that equivalent to like 250mg or 500mg of quercetin?
 

Edited by lancebr, 19 March 2020 - 07:43 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

I did see the 'if'.

 

re: "it has been independently proposed that covid-19 preferentially takes over senescent cells to reproduce itself."

 

I must have missed that! Do you have the link?

 

 

And sorry for sounding boring, but I swear I saw the beginning of an internet legend in the making and though I'd apply the breaks on it.

 

Ok, I'll withdraw that statement. The paper I was reading on covid-19 and senescent immune cells doesn't support that conclusion.

 

But still, if you look at the list of existing drugs that have anti-coronavirus activity, it is noteworthy that a number of them are known to be reasonably good senolytics.  Quercetin/Luteolin, Dasatinib, Azithromycin.  And I haven't culled the list yet to see if there are others with significant senolytic activity.

 

Perhaps SARS/covid-19/MERS infected cells are vulnerable through the same or similar mechanism that senolytic cells are vulnerable to these compounds. 

[Oakman]

Are you using quercetin or emiq?

 

I noticed that the EMIQ is in lower doses like 50mg....is that equivalent to like 250mg or 500mg of quercetin?
 

Yes, absolutely. As with most all higher bio-availability formulations, vendors seem to make them all equivalent to larger, regular doses by cutting the amount you receive.

 

The positives are, IMO, are that there is a better chance it actually IS absorbed, vs excreted with less bio-a versions, and 2nd, if you take a number of supps, less is nicer, and easier. I started with regular bulk Q a while back, and it was a mess of yellowish stuff that was a pain to compound.

[Oakman]

Trump is talking about hydroxychloroquine and it effectiveness and that the

FDA will give clearance to make the drug available for immediate use against this virus.

 

One can hope with this. But here is a revealing backstory on these 'studies' and why this story has some hallmarks of a social media scheme. It's a story when Elon tweets it.

 

(3 hr old story as I post this) 

https://www.inverse....-body–3-19-2020

 

Edited by Oakman, 19 March 2020 - 10:16 PM.

[Izan]

A Dutch scientist of the University of Groningen created hydroxychloroquine in aerosol form and it will be available within weeks. It instantly reaches the lungs to directly block the negative effects of COVID-19. This method of delivery is much safer and more efficient than hydroxychloroquine in oral form.

 

https://www.rtvnoord...namedicijn-door

[lancebr]

Yes, absolutely. As with most all higher bio-availability formulations, vendors seem to make them all equivalent to larger, regular doses by cutting the amount you receive.

 

The positives are, IMO, are that there is a better chance it actually IS absorbed, vs excreted with less bio-a versions, and 2nd, if you take a number of supps, less is nicer, and easier. I started with regular bulk Q a while back, and it was a mess of yellowish stuff that was a pain to compound.

 

 

So what dosage are you taking of EMIQ daily?
 

 

Thanks

[Izan]

I started with the Lactoferrin (just one capsule) today and became dizzy as hell.

 

Be careful guys.

[Oakman]

So what dosage are you taking of EMIQ daily?
 

 

Thanks

 

My bottle serving is 50 mgs EMIQ so at @x40 Cmax / 15x AUC so perhaps 2000 mgs, or something similar.

[lancebr]

My bottle serving is 50 mgs EMIQ so at @x40 Cmax / 15x AUC so perhaps 2000 mgs, or something similar.

 

So you are only taking one 50mg of EMIQ daily?
 

[Hip]

There is a petition that people may like to sign to restart research into DRACO, the universal antiviral drug designed to work for nearly all viruses.

www.businessinsider.com/todd-rider-draco-crowdfunding-broad-spectrum-antiviral-2015-12

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRACO

[xEva]

 

     if you look at the list of existing drugs that have anti-coronavirus activity, it is noteworthy that a number of them are known to be reasonably good senolytics.  Quercetin/Luteolin, Dasatinib, Azithromycin.  And I haven't culled the list yet to see if there are others with significant senolytic activity.

 

Perhaps SARS/covid-19/MERS infected cells are vulnerable through the same or similar mechanism that senolytic cells are vulnerable to these compounds. 

 

I did not look much into mechanism of quercetin/luteolin senolytic activity (their low bioavailability dampened my enthusiazm). I also did not look much into dasatinib (expensive cancer drug), but azitzhromycin, when that study came out, I read very carefully. Turned out, azithromycin stressed cells' mitochondria, which healthy cells were able to withstand, but senescent cells could not.

 

Also, from personal experience, since both azithromycin and quinine in various forms have always made me hungry (quinine much stronger than azithromycin), to me this means that they suppress autophagy (and likely mitochondiral fusion that comes with it). In fact, I just bumped into a quote that chloroquine is a strong autophagy inhibitor. Azithromycin, I just saw, is also autophagy inhibitor. I know that many viruses exploit autophagy machinery for their own replication and, if you could block it, that would block their replication.

 

Based on this, I would venture  a guess that COVID-19 also exploits autophagy machinery for its own replication.

 

And! the best and easiest way to inhibit autophagy is to eat well and eat often. It's good to know, in case could not get your hands on either azithromycin or chloroquine. Of course this requires good appetite. It's never a good idea to eat without an appetite (will do you more harm than good). Well, in my experience, drinking ~100 mL of diet tonic water makes me hungry in just 15 mins.

 

 

I just checked, and it's interesting that dasatinib, to the contrary, is autophagy inducer.

You were saying above that dasatinib was shown to have activity against some viruses. Do you have a link please?

Edited by xEva, 20 March 2020 - 05:07 PM.