3083 replies to this topic

[ConnyB]

What is the opinion about melatonin? It was mentioned previously in the thread. For other reasons I already take 5mg every night (really helps my stomach issues). Do you think this will help or hurt during an infection with covid-19?

[lancebr]

This is interesting. I just bought some Elderberry and started taking it.

 

Chris Kresser wrote this about Elderberry:

However, Stephen Buhner doesn't recommend Elderberry, he recommends Elder Leaf. This is his article: Herbal Treatment For Coronavirus Infections. This is his facebook page talking about Elderberry and Elder Leaf and cytokines.

 

Here is Dr. Marvin Singh's, of San Diego, take on elderberry:

 

"When you are exhibiting symptoms of infection or test positive for coronavirus, you

should consider avoiding elderberry, because the immune-activating properties of

it may cause increased levels of IL-1B and/or IL-18 in infected immune cells.

These are inflammatory cytokines that could potentially make the illness more complicated."
 

But the problem with this virus is you can have it and not know you have it for up to

14 days and during that time if you are taking elderberry then you might be doing more

harm to your body and not even know it

[BioHacker=Life]

Clin Infect Dis. 2020 Mar 9. pii: ciaa237. doi: 10.1093/cid/ciaa237. [Epub ahead of print]

In Vitro Antiviral Activity and Projection of Optimized Dosing Design of Hydroxychloroquine for the Treatment of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2).

BACKGROUND: The Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) first broke out in Wuhan (China) and subsequently spread worldwide. Chloroquine has been sporadically used in treating SARS-CoV-2 infection. Hydroxychloroquine shares the same mechanism of action as chloroquine, but its more tolerable safety profile makes it the preferred drug to treat malaria and autoimmune conditions. We propose that the immunomodulatory effect of hydroxychloroquine also may be useful in controlling the cytokine storm that occurs late-phase in critically ill SARS-CoV-2 infected patients. Currently, there is no evidence to support the use of hydroxychloroquine in SARS-CoV-2 infection.

 

 

METHODS: The pharmacological activity of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine was tested using SARS-CoV-2 infected Vero cells. Physiologically-based pharmacokinetic models (PBPK) were implemented for both drugs separately by integrating their in vitro data. Using the PBPK models, hydroxychloroquine concentrations in lung fluid were simulated under 5 different dosing regimens to explore the most effective regimen whilst considering the drug's safety profile.

 

RESULTS: Hydroxychloroquine (EC50=0.72 μM) was found to be more potent than chloroquine (EC50=5.47 μM) in vitro. Based on PBPK models results, a loading dose of 400 mg twice daily of hydroxychloroquine sulfate given orally, followed by a maintenance dose of 200 mg given twice daily for 4 days is recommended for SARS-CoV-2 infection, as it reached three times the potency of chloroquine phosphate when given 500 mg twice daily 5 days in advance.

 

CONCLUSIONS: Hydroxychloroquine was found to be more potent than chloroquine to inhibit SARS-CoV-2 in vitro.

 

Edited by BioHacker=Life, 21 March 2020 - 07:51 PM.

[lancebr]

I just downloaded and read that guy's pdf.  He also recommends upregulating ACE2.

 

Which guy are you talking about Chris Kesser or Chris Masterjohn the guy in the video saying not to

take vitamin D?

 

Since vitamin D up-regulates ACE2 I still don't understand why the Masterjohn guy says not to take it.

 

 

Edited by lancebr, 21 March 2020 - 08:09 PM.

[spike]

This is a good video as to why you want more ACE2.  He also states that ARBS might be beneficial

and a study is going to be done to see about its use against this virus.

There's another interesting video, that discusses those two hypothesis, and suggests that ACE inhibitors might be beneficial, but different mechanism of action (leads to less Angiotensin II, and in that case ACE2 is bound to ATR1, sorry if I'm misinterpreting the video). But ofc, more data is needed to know for sure.

Coronavirus Pandemic Update 37: The ACE-2 Receptor - The Doorway to COVID-19 (ACE Inhibitors & ARBs)

[thompson92]

Which guy are you talking about Chris Kesser or Chris Masterjohn the guy in the video saying not to

take vitamin D?

 

Since vitamin D up-regulates ACE2 I still don't understand why the Masterjohn guy says not to take it.

 

This guy:

https://www.stephenh...hner.com/about/

 

And no offense, I'm not putting my life in his hands.  I will trust PhD level scientists who are working in a lab with actual animals and cell cultures and MD working with patients over an accomplished herbalist.

 

His paper is here:

 

https://www.stephenh...navirus.txt.pdf

https://www.stephenh...oronaupdate.pdf

 

On page 7-10 he talks about ACE2, then on page 13, he specifically says upregulate ACE-2 expression is preferred.

 

I think I might drop elderberry, because I have chloroquine and I don't want too many 'good ideas' conflating the situation.  Maybe the best bet is to take it and as soon as you get sick, stop.  I need to look into it later.

 

This video here is the best mechanistic explanation I've seen of why keeping RAS in check is ideal, because ACE2 breaks off a complex and then can associate with the SARS-Coronavirus:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=1vZDVbqRhyM

 

 

Edited by thompson92, 21 March 2020 - 08:38 PM.

[lancebr]

This guy:

https://www.stephenh...hner.com/about/

 

And no offense, I'm not putting my life in his hands.  I will trust PhD level scientists who are working in a lab with actual animals and cell cultures and MD working with patients over an accomplished herbalist.

 

His paper is here:

 

https://www.stephenh...navirus.txt.pdf

https://www.stephenh...oronaupdate.pdf

 

On page 7-10 he talks about ACE2, then on page 13, he specifically says upregulate ACE-2 expression is preferred.

 

I think I might drop elderberry, because I have chloroquine and I don't want too many 'good ideas' conflating the situation.  Maybe the best bet is to take it and as soon as you get sick, stop.  I need to look into it later.

 

This video here is the best mechanistic explanation I've seen of why keeping RAS in check is ideal, because ACE2 breaks off a complex and then can associate with the SARS-Coronavirus:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=1vZDVbqRhyM

 

Thanks for the info from that Buhner guy. 

 

After reading the herbs he recommends I think he is just reusing the information from the

type of Qingfei Paidu Soup the Chinese used for treatment

 

http://en.people.cn/...00-9665722.html

 

That soup contains licorice, skullcap, cinnamon, etc.  So, I just think he is reusing the information.

 

The Masterjohn guy seems to think vitamin D and more ACE2 is bad and elderberry is good...which I

don't understand his thinking.

 

Are you supplementing with Vitamin D and do you intend to keep up with the Vitamin D?

 

Thanks

 

 

[ta5]

Here is Dr. Marvin Singh's, of San Diego, take on elderberry:

 

"When you are exhibiting symptoms of infection or test positive for coronavirus, you

should consider avoiding elderberry, because the immune-activating properties of

it may cause increased levels of IL-1B and/or IL-18 in infected immune cells.

These are inflammatory cytokines that could potentially make the illness more complicated."
 

But the problem with this virus is you can have it and not know you have it for up to

14 days and during that time if you are taking elderberry then you might be doing more

harm to your body and not even know it

 

Until we know more, it's probably best to avoid Elderberry. Here are the studies showing it increased cytokines, both by the same authors:

 

The effect of herbal remedies on the production of human inflammatory and anti-inflammatory cytokines.

To study the effect of five herbal remedies--Sambucol Black Elderberry Extract...on the production of cytokines...tested using blood-derived monocytes from 12 healthy donors... The Sambucol preparations increased the production of five cytokines (1.3-6.2 fold) compared to the control... The three Sambucol formulations activate the healthy immune system by increasing inflammatory and anti-inflammatory cytokines production...

 

The effect of Sambucol, a black elderberry-based, natural product, on the production of human cytokines: I. Inflammatory cytokines.)

...The present study aimed to assess the effect of Sambucol products on the healthy immune system - namely, its effect on cytokine production. The production of inflammatory cytokines was tested using blood - derived monocytes from 12 healthy human donors... Production of inflammatory cytokines (IL-1 beta, TNF-alpha, IL-6, IL-8) was significantly increased, mostly by the Sambucol Black Elderberry Extract (2-45 fold)...

 

I wish we had a study measuring cytokines in lungs of people with an active respiratory viral infection. It seems to reduce symptoms in the flu, which is also a respitory illness:

 

Randomized study of the efficacy and safety of oral elderberry extract in the treatment of influenza A and B virus infections.

...Symptoms were relieved on average 4 days earlier and use of rescue medication was significantly less in those receiving elderberry extract compared with placebo...

 

Inhibition of several strains of influenza virus in vitro and reduction of symptoms by an elderberry extract (Sambucus nigra L.) during an outbreak of influenza B Panama.

A standardized elderberry extract, Sambucol (SAM), reduced hemagglutination and inhibited replication of human influenza viruses... A placebo-controlled, double blind study was carried out... A significant improvement of the symptoms, including fever, was seen in 93.3% of the cases in the SAM-treated group within 2 days, whereas in the control group 91.7% of the patients showed an improvement within 6 days (p < 0.001). A complete cure was achieved within 2 to 3 days in nearly 90% of the SAM-treated group and within at least 6 days in the placebo group (p < 0.001)...

 

In other situations, it was shown to reduce IL-6:

 

Elderberry (Sambucus nigra L.) Fruit Extract Alleviates Oxidative Stress, Insulin Resistance, and Inflammation in Hypertrophied 3T3-L1 Adipocytes and Activated RAW 264.7 Macrophages.

This study demonstrated the capacity of elderberry fruit (EDB) extract to decrease the elevated production of reactive oxygen species in hypertrophied 3T3-L1 adipocytes... The extract was also found to alleviate the inflammatory response in activated RAW 264.7 macrophages by down-regulating the expression of proinflammatory genes (TNF-α, IL-6, COX-2, iNOS) and suppressing the enhanced production of inflammatory mediators (TNF-α, IL-6, PGE2, NO).

 

Identification of Magnolia officinalis L. bark extract as the most potent anti-inflammatory of four plant extracts.

This study was designed to compare the anti-inflammatory potential of a Magnolia officinalis L. bark extract solely or in combination with extracts prepared from either Polygonum aviculare L., Sambucus nigra L., or Isodon japonicus L in bacterial lipopolysaccharide (LPS) stimulated human gingival fibroblasts (HGF-1) and human U-937 monocytes... Magnolia officinalis L. bark extract, at concentrations of 1 μg/mL and 10 μg/mL, reduced interleukin 6 (IL-6) and interleukin-8 (IL-8) secretion... The other three extracts also reduced secretion of these inflammatory markers but were not as effective.

 

As far as doing damage, in the short term, if you don't notice inflammation like coughing or difficulty breathing, then you probably don't have much inflammation. If you took it long term, then I could see low level damage accumulating over time that you might not notice.

Edited by ta5, 21 March 2020 - 11:47 PM.

[Oakman]

"Our finding demonstrate that the honey supplementation lead to significantly decreased the levels of IL-6 and TNF- α Immediately, 1 hour and 24h after exercise in the E + S group. The beneficial effect of honey on immune responses during different types of exercise programs has also been studied [14]. There are less reports to show the effects of honey supplementation on immunological response of human .also our result showed that intake honey supplementation cause to increase il1 ra that it is anti inflammatory cytokine

 

https://www.alliedac...intensive-.html

[Dorian Grey]

The case for zinc (when properly applied with an ionophore)

 

On the reduction of covid-19 associated case fatality rate: reckoning of a physicist

 

https://www.research..._of_a_physicist

 

This guy makes a compelling case for zinc given with an ionophore.  

 

"chloroquine is amongst the few Zn2+ ionophores [6]. Others include zinc pyrithione, zinc dimethyldithiocarbamate (Ziram) and clioquinol [7]. The latter being a potential alternative to chloroquine. Ionophores are facilitators of ion transport across the cellular membrane"

 

"it is realized that Zn2+  inhibits coronavirus RNA polymerase activity in cell culture provided it is effectively heralded into the intracellular milieu, that is zinc ionophores block the replication of the virus"

 

"Zn-deficit (in all its aspects) is the major cause of the COVID-19 associated high C.F.R."

 

"The serum Zn concentration is correlated inversely with age (r=-0.11, p=0.018). Note, the age-dependent deficiency is not necessarily dietary dependent but is rather an absorption issue."

 

"COVID-19 associated C.F.R. increases with the presence of comorbidities, can be explained away by the chronic condition induced Zn-deficiency in cancer (5.6% COVID-19 C.F.R.) and diabetes (7.3% COVID-19 C.F.R.) sufferers."

 

"The three major causes of Zn- deficiency are 1.) dietary – vegeratians at highest risk; 2.) poor absorption – elderly or suffering from acrodermatitis enteropathica; 3.) chronic conditions: alcohol addiction, cancer, diabetes, ect."

 

------------------------

 

The Quercetin Connection: 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25050823

 

Zinc ionophore activity of quercetin and epigallocatechin-gallate: from Hepa 1-6 cells to a liposome model.

 

"We have previously shown that these polyphenols chelate zinc cations and hypothesized that these flavonoids might be also acting as zinc ionophores, transporting zinc cations through the plasma membrane"

 

"Only the combinations of the chelators with zinc triggered a rapid increase of FluoZin-3 fluorescence within the liposomes, thus demonstrating the ionophore action of QCT, epigallocatechin-gallate, and CQ on lipid membrane systems. The ionophore activity of dietary polyphenols may underlay the raising of labile zinc levels triggered in cells by polyphenols and thus many of their biological actions."

 

What do we make of this?  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 22 March 2020 - 03:09 AM.

[bladedmind]

I’m 70 and age-healthy but with controlled T2D and hypertension,  I think it likely that by the time I’m infected people with my profile will be turned away from the ICU and maybe even the hospital.  I’m isolated and avoiding, using gloves on all trips, and as of today mask and goggles. I’ve switched from Telmisartan ARB to a calcium channel blocker; am avoiding astragalus, echninacea, ibuprofen; per Life Extension am taking cimetidine (need a N2A or PPI anyway) for immune senescence until infection strikes; taking a number of other things divided into pre-infection, infection, or both. 

 

I ordered chloroquine from India on March 15, takes 1-2 weeks.  Meanwhile am taking quercetin, egcg, and zinc.   When chloroquine arrives I plan to commence prophylactic dose (same as malaria prophylaxis regimen), continue zinc, and continue quercetin on non-chloroquine days.   If infected plan to go to 500 mg/day chloroquine plus zinc for 5-10 days. Will adjust plans as I learn more.  

 

Medscape has a chloroquine article with comments by medical professionals.  

https://www.medscape...cle/927033#vp_3

I’ll omit names of MDs, who shouldn’t be seen as providing advice.  I’m preparing for the eventuality of being denied hospital treatment.   A nonobvious remedy:  hydrotherapy:

I have successfully used hydrotherapy for more than three decades to treat pneumonia with SARS and now SARS-CoV-2.  (Just this week I have received several emails from friends and former patients reporting their successful treating of colds and pneumonias in their homes). The hydrotherapy is called Fomentation meaning the use of moist heat. The process begins by heating a wet towel in a microwave oven for three minutes, wrapping this hot towel in a dry towel, and placing it directly on the chest or the back. Fresh hot towels are prepared approximately every five minutes, and total treatment lasts 15-20 minutes. Treatment is given every 4 to 6 hours.

 

Moist heat penetrates the tissue to a depth of 2 to 5 inches killing all microbes including viruses. Moist heat also loosens mucus so that patients will be able to cough it out. With lower respiratory infection, alveoli can fill with mucous secretions so thick that the person is unable to cough it up.  Left untreated, the mucus can eventually cause breathing problems and hypoxia. Moist heat enhances blood circulation, recruiting immune cells and cytokines to destroy viruses.  Moist heat also encourages perspiration allowing toxic byproducts to be eliminated through skin.  When appropriately applied, SARS is cured in a few days. I realize that this treatment modality may be foreign to many, I invite you to try this method (no cost, no side effect).  

 

 

 

Another commented on choloroquine, quercetin, and zinc:

3. Zinc ionophore activity of quercetin and epigallocatechin-gallate (EGCG) (https://pubs.acs.org....1021/jf5014633)

- Other substances (including natural substances) can also act as zinc ionophores

- Quercetin and EGCG (active compound in green tea) are both polyphenols that increase zinc transportation into cells

- Typical doses for quercetin are 1-3g/day

 

While evidence is very limited, I think there is a rational basis to consider chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine (if able to get it, now limited in my area). As a backup, consider zinc (30mg/day), quercetin (1-3g/day, suggest 2g/day taken between meals), and liberal intake of green tea unless contraindicated.

 

 

 

 

[lancebr]

The case for zinc (when properly applied with an ionophore)

 

On the reduction of covid-19 associated case fatality rate: reckoning of a physicist

 

https://www.research..._of_a_physicist

 

This guy makes a compelling case for zinc given with an ionophore.  

 

"chloroquine is amongst the few Zn2+ ionophores [6]. Others include zinc pyrithione, zinc dimethyldithiocarbamate (Ziram) and clioquinol [7]. The latter being a potential alternative to chloroquine. Ionophores are facilitators of ion transport across the cellular membrane"

 

"it is realized that Zn2+  inhibits coronavirus RNA polymerase activity in cell culture provided it is effectively heralded into the intracellular milieu, that is zinc ionophores block the replication of the virus"

 

"Zn-deficit (in all its aspects) is the major cause of the COVID-19 associated high C.F.R."

 

"The serum Zn concentration is correlated inversely with age (r=-0.11, p=0.018). Note, the age-dependent deficiency is not necessarily dietary dependent but is rather an absorption issue."

 

"COVID-19 associated C.F.R. increases with the presence of comorbidities, can be explained away by the chronic condition induced Zn-deficiency in cancer (5.6% COVID-19 C.F.R.) and diabetes (7.3% COVID-19 C.F.R.) sufferers."

 

"The three major causes of Zn- deficiency are 1.) dietary – vegeratians at highest risk; 2.) poor absorption – elderly or suffering from acrodermatitis enteropathica; 3.) chronic conditions: alcohol addiction, cancer, diabetes, ect."

 

------------------------

 

The Quercetin Connection: 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25050823

 

Zinc ionophore activity of quercetin and epigallocatechin-gallate: from Hepa 1-6 cells to a liposome model.

 

"We have previously shown that these polyphenols chelate zinc cations and hypothesized that these flavonoids might be also acting as zinc ionophores, transporting zinc cations through the plasma membrane"

 

"Only the combinations of the chelators with zinc triggered a rapid increase of FluoZin-3 fluorescence within the liposomes, thus demonstrating the ionophore action of QCT, epigallocatechin-gallate, and CQ on lipid membrane systems. The ionophore activity of dietary polyphenols may underlay the raising of labile zinc levels triggered in cells by polyphenols and thus many of their biological actions."

 

What do we make of this?  

 

I have been trying to find information about substances with zinc ionophore activity that could be

purchased otc without a prescription but it always seems to come back to quercetin and ECGC, 

 

The problem I am finding out about quercetin is it has a very low bioavalibilty even with additives

like bromelain.  There is a form called EMIQ that is suppose to be more bioavalable to the body.

 

I don't know about the bioavailibility of ECGC, but I am assuming we would need a zinc ionophore

substance that has good absorption in the body for it to work like chloroquine.

 

And then there is also the issue of what mechanism dose chloroquine/hydroxychloroquine actually

use to fight this virus.  Some reports talk about the zinc ionophore mechanism, but then there are

some reports that talk about how it changes the pH of endosomes and prevents replication:

 

"Chloroquine can raise the pH of endosomes, vesicles inside cells that are hijacked as points of entry

by viruses. Endosomes have a slightly acidic pH, which helps facilitate this process. Dr. Seidah explains

that chloroquine can raise endosomic pH slightly, which prevents fusion and stops the virus from entering

the cell. Chloroquine may also block enzymes involved in the fusion between the virus and lung cells

or stymie the viral replication process."

 

 

Edited by lancebr, 22 March 2020 - 04:36 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

Quercetin (and EGCG) may have poor bioavailability, but perhaps a little goes a long way.  If they didn't do anything in the amounts absorbed, it wouldn't be the famous "Super Food" ingredient that it is.  Green tea sounds good to me as this is rich in both quercetin and EGCG.  I know quercetin that does get absorbed has a very short half-life in the body, so I reckon it would be wise to take the zinc & quercetin or tea together.  I like that both of these are fairly safe, so long as you don't get carried away with mega-doses, which should be unnecessary from what the author states. Just make sure you're not zinc deficient (age,diet or chronic disease) and add the ionophore.  

 

From what this guy says, it is only the mild to moderate zinc deficiencies of old age or chronic disease that leads to the immune failure.  The thought actually struck me that the Italian diet was fairly rich in seafood, which is a good source of zinc.  In googling around on this, I found the heavy seafood diet is primarily in southern & coastal Italy, and in Lombardy / Milan (where the Italian epidemic is occurring), seafood isn't a major component of the regional diet.  

 

In Chris Masterjohn's youtube (from my earlier post) he recommends low dose zinc, which should be well tolerated.  He likes Jarrow's "Zinc Balance" with just 15mg zinc combined with one mg copper.  I normally wouldn't take supplemental copper, but 1mg is a fairly low dose and the studies on how long coronavirus lives on surfaces indicated copper or brass (which contains copper) seemed to adversely effect the bug's survival, so I'm making an exception to my copper rule and have ordered 2/100 cap bottles of Jarrow's potion.  

 

Wish me luck!  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 22 March 2020 - 04:45 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

Want more?  OK!  2 of the primary conditions noted in fatality with COVID are hypertension and diabetes.  Are diabetics zinc deficient?  Yes they are!  

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3407731/

 

"Studies have shown that diabetes is accompanied by hypozincemia [13] and hyperzincuria"

 

Do folks with hypertension take ACE inhibitors?  And are these associated with zinc deficiency?  Yes they are!  

 

https://www.winchest...rticle?id=21382

 

"ACE inhibitors may cause zinc depletion. 11,12 The ACE inhibitors captopril and enalapril attach to the trace mineral zinc. Because zinc in this bound form cannot replace the zinc that the body uses to meet its normal needs, a gradual loss of zinc from body tissues may result"

 

Am I excited about all this?  Yes I am!  

 

Now that we've saved the world, can we re-open my favorite gastropub?  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 22 March 2020 - 05:30 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

 

I’m 70 and age-healthy but with controlled T2D and hypertension,  I think it likely that by the time I’m infected people with my profile will be turned away from the ICU and maybe even the hospital.  I’m isolated and avoiding, using gloves on all trips, and as of today mask and goggles. I’ve switched from Telmisartan ARB to a calcium channel blocker; am avoiding astragalus, echninacea, ibuprofen; per Life Extension am taking cimetidine (need a N2A or PPI anyway) for immune senescence until infection strikes; taking a number of other things divided into pre-infection, infection, or both. 

 

I ordered chloroquine from India on March 15, takes 1-2 weeks.  Meanwhile am taking quercetin, egcg, and zinc.   When chloroquine arrives I plan to commence prophylactic dose (same as malaria prophylaxis regimen), continue zinc, and continue quercetin on non-chloroquine days.   If infected plan to go to 500 mg/day chloroquine plus zinc for 5-10 days. Will adjust plans as I learn more.  

 

Medscape has a chloroquine article with comments by medical professionals.  

https://www.medscape...cle/927033#vp_3

I’ll omit names of MDs, who shouldn’t be seen as providing advice.  I’m preparing for the eventuality of being denied hospital treatment.   A nonobvious remedy:  hydrotherapy:

 

 

Another commented on choloroquine, quercetin, and zinc:

 

 

 

I think you've nailed it bladedmind.  Excellent stack & protocol.  Amazing you got your doc to switch you from the ARB to calcium channel blocker.  Did you have to hold a gun to his head?  

 

You're going to be fine...  Now, how do we save the rest of the world?  

[lancebr]

Quercetin (and EGCG) may have poor bioavailability, but perhaps a little goes a long way.  If they didn't do anything in the amounts absorbed, it wouldn't be the famous "Super Food" ingredient that it is.  Green tea sounds good to me as this is rich in both quercetin and EGCG.  I know quercetin that does get absorbed has a very short half-life in the body, so I reckon it would be wise to take the zinc & quercetin or tea together.  I like that both of these are fairly safe, so long as you don't get carried away with mega-doses, which should be unnecessary from what the author states. Just make sure you're not zinc deficient (age,diet or chronic disease) and add the ionophore.  

 

From what this guy says, it is only the mild to moderate zinc deficiencies of old age or chronic disease that leads to the immune failure.  The thought actually struck me that the Italian diet was fairly rich in seafood, which is a good source of zinc.  In googling around on this, I found the heavy seafood diet is primarily in southern & coastal Italy, and in Lombardy / Milan (where the Italian epidemic is occurring), seafood isn't a major component of the regional diet.  

 

In Chris Masterjohn's youtube (from my earlier post) he recommends low dose zinc, which should be well tolerated.  He likes Jarrow's "Zinc Balance" with just 15mg zinc combined with one mg copper.  I normally wouldn't take supplemental copper, but 1mg is a fairly low dose and the studies on how long coronavirus lives on surfaces indicated copper or brass (which contains copper) seemed to adversely effect the bug's survival, so I'm making an exception to my copper rule and have ordered 2/100 cap bottles of Jarrow's potion.  

 

Wish me luck!  

 

I am taking OptiZinc which is the same type of zinc in the Jarrow brand just without any copper in the brand I am using. 

 

I will not touch copper supplements with a ten foot pole.  I have seen to many studies that link it to brain issues and

possibly to alzheimers and dementia so taking it just seems too detrimental to me.  They say that if you have a

balanced diet then you get enough copper that away without having to supplement it. And supposedly OptiZinc

does not reduce the level of copper like other zinc supplements do in the body.

[Dorian Grey]

I agree lancebr, copper is almost universally an unwise supplement.  I'm sure you'll do fine without it.  I just bought it on impulse when I saw Dr Masterjohn's video.  I've chelated copper for many years with IP6 & NAC, so I don't think I've accumulated an excess.  

 

I may hold this unless & until I get sick with the dreaded plague.  Am currently taking KAL Tri-Zinc (citrate, Amino Acid Chelate & Picolinate).  

 

Low dose zinc shouldn't push copper down too far, but I was impressed with the surface studies showing copper & brass tending to kill the COVID bug.  

 

If I do get sick, I'm hitting it with everything I've seen that impairs it.  A short term bump in copper (during acute illness) all part of the risk/reward.  I'll chelate it back out with IP6 or NAC once I'm back on an even keel, and have some antibodies built against the 2020 plague.  

 

Live Long & Prosper my friend!  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 22 March 2020 - 05:52 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

P.S.  Do PPI meds cause zinc deficiency?  Yes they do!  

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5139861/

 

"PPI-users had a 28% lower plasma zinc level than healthy controls"

 

How many folks around the world are on these now days?  Seems like you can't even visit your doc without walking out with a scrip for a PPI.  

 

Pharmageddon: "A dystopian scenario wherein medicine and the pharmaceuticals industry have a net detrimental effect on human health and medical progress does more harm than good"

Edited by Dorian Grey, 22 March 2020 - 06:00 AM.

[lancebr]

I agree lancebr, copper is almost universally an unwise supplement.  I'm sure you'll do fine without it.  I just bought it on impulse when I saw Dr Masterjohn's video.  I've chelated copper for many years with IP6 & NAC, so I don't think I've accumulated an excess.  

 

I may hold this unless & until I get sick with the dreaded plague.  Am currently taking KAL Tri-Zinc (citrate, Amino Acid Chelate & Picolinate).  

 

Low dose zinc shouldn't push copper down too far, but I was impressed with the surface studies showing copper & brass tending to kill the COVID bug.  

 

If I do get sick, I'm hitting it with everything I've seen that impairs it.  A short term bump in copper (during acute illness) all part of the risk/reward.  I'll chelate it back out with IP6 or NAC once I'm back on an even keel, and have some antibodies built against the 2020 plague.  

 

Live Long & Prosper my friend!  

 

I am just very cautious when it comes to anything that might be bad for the brain or cause

alzheimers. I have three family members who have been diagnosed with dementia or

alzheimers and see how devastating of a disease it is. I just take every precaution I can

with that because I have a good guess that based upon genetics I have a good chance

of getting it when I get older.

 

I think what I might do since I have some quercetin and ECGC pills is take one in the morning

and take the other in the evening with my zinc (divided dose) and hopefully that will work

as a zinc ionophore. 

 

I still wonder if there is a way to change the pH since some doctors believe that is how chloroquine

stops the replication of the virus.
 

[Dorian Grey]

From what I've read, It's very hard to change cellular PH.  The body guards it's PH balance with it's life, & dietary changes aren't supposed to affect this much.  

 

You've been on this like a tiger from day one, & I believe you're on the right track to survival and good health.  

 

Hang in there, & this too shall pass.  You're going to be fine.  See you on the sunny side of the street once we're on the other side of the tidal wave.  

[HBRU]

I've ended my BHT period with a one day senolytic: 1 gram Azithromicin + 1 gram quercitin + 1 gram fisetin

This just to kill down cells where the virus could hidden

Experienced a one day small relaps of symptoms... did another very hot bath...

[pamojja]

Capers seem to have the most quercetine: http://microbiomepre...Details?fid=789

[thompson92]

 

I’ve switched from Telmisartan ARB to a calcium channel blocker; am avoiding astragalus, echninacea, ibuprofen; per Life Extension am taking cimetidine (need a N2A or PPI anyway) for immune senescence until infection strikes; taking a number of other things divided into pre-infection, infection, or both. 

 

 

 

 

Getting off the ARB is a bad idea.  That actually might be preventative by preventing ACE2 from being freely available to associate with the virus.  It runs counter to a strong hypothesis of how the virus is manifesting in the body and against the recommendations of the European Society on Cardiology, which issued a statement on this matter.

 

I actually had some telmisartan that I was taking off label about a year ago and I threw it out.  I am kicking myself now.

Edited by thompson92, 22 March 2020 - 12:21 PM.

[Izan]

Lost actor Daniel Dae Kim (American of Korean origine): ''I was infected with the Coronavirus, but hydroxychloroquine helped me recover fully''  ''It was crucial.''  (his personal doctor also gave him some Tamiflu, Azithromycin and perhaps Seebri inhaler (Glycopyrrolate) )

 

 

https://www.msn.com/...ery/ar-BB11wQna

[bladedmind]

I've had a lot of experience with quercetin over the last 5 years.  I find it useful for seasonal inhalant allergies.  Out of prudence, I don't take it 365 days a year.  I've used Now Quercetin (800 mg) + Bromelain. There are unreferenced claims by supplement sellers that bromelain may enhance absorption of quercetin -- who knows.  It is potent, definitely a drug.  I can't take more than two a day, and do better with one - taking too much provokes overstimulation and uneasiness.

 

Have also used Natural Factors EMIQ (emiq is offered by a number of different brands).  NF has 187 mg of EMIQ.  Subjectively, I found it quite potent -- would take half a cap AM and half PM.  EMIQ hard to find on internet now, but Natural Factors website has a store locator and I saw it in my nearest natural grocery last week.  I've also used Thorne Quercetin Phytosome and found it similarly potent.  

 

Copper.  Again, subjective.  After months of trial and error, I concluded that the 2 mg/day copper in a multiminerals supplement was having an adverse effect.  I found another multimineral with no copper.  But I have 2 mg copper supplement that I take once a week if taking enhanced zinc for illness. 

[Dorian Grey]

Almost forgot...  The sartan BP meds are also associated with zinc deficiency.  

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/15797654

 

"Treatment with losartan causes an increase in urinary Zn excretion and induces Zn deficiency in patients with hypertension. The addition of hydrochlorothiazide has an additive effect."

 

It appears it may not be the hypertension that causes increased fatality with COVID, but the medications used to treat them. 

 

Now, is it possible to sufficiently correct the zinc deficiency without discontinuing the ACE inhibitor or sartan?  I'd bet it is, provided these do not interfere with the ionophore. 

[Izan]

Want more?  OK!  2 of the primary conditions noted in fatality with COVID are hypertension and diabetes.  Are diabetics zinc deficient?  Yes they are!  

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3407731/

 

"Studies have shown that diabetes is accompanied by hypozincemia [13] and hyperzincuria"

 

Do folks with hypertension take ACE inhibitors?  And are these associated with zinc deficiency?  Yes they are!  

 

https://www.winchest...rticle?id=21382

 

"ACE inhibitors may cause zinc depletion. 11,12 The ACE inhibitors captopril and enalapril attach to the trace mineral zinc. Because zinc in this bound form cannot replace the zinc that the body uses to meet its normal needs, a gradual loss of zinc from body tissues may result"

 

Am I excited about all this?  Yes I am!  

 

Now that we've saved the world, can we re-open my favorite gastropub?  

Well researched my friend! I think we found a breakthrough here.

[bladedmind]

I think you've nailed it bladedmind.  Excellent stack & protocol.  Amazing you got your doc to switch you from the ARB to calcium channel blocker.  Did you have to hold a gun to his head?  

 

You're going to be fine...  Now, how do we save the rest of the world?  

 

Here is how I approached my docs:  

Dear [GP]:

 

[Reminders of my health profile]

 

Lancet correspondence 3/11/20 hypothesizes that the association of Covid-19 mortality with T2D and hypertension could be driven by use of ACE inhibitor or ARB (along with East Asian ACE2 gene polymorphisms). The letter suggests substituting calcium-channel blocker for hypertension, (Ibuprofen is a driver as well.)

www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lanres/PIIS2213-2600(20)30116-8.pdf

 

 

 

GP forwarded to cardiologist, and I sent cardiologist this the next morning:

 

Discovered last night that cardiologists are saying don't stop ARB/ACE1 because there are no data to support that move. www.acc.org/latest-in-cardiology/articles/2020/03/17/08/59/hfsa-acc-aha-statement-addresses-concerns-re-using-raas-antagonists-in-covid-19.

 

Their argument for not switching is extremely weak, however: added coronavirus exposure from clinical and pharmacy visits. I have a cuff, have calibrated it against clinic readings, and can monitor BP during transition.

 

There is a theoretical basis for doing so, however, and if switching to a CCB does not otherwise increase health risk I see no reason for not doing so. I can self-monitor and get pharmacy delivery. This raises issues covered in Cartwright's _Evidence-Based Policy_. There are also no data to support NOT switching medication! Evidence required for prudential choice is less strenuous than that required for scientific conclusion.

 

The calculation of overall risk is different for someone age 70 than someone age 40. I think that there's a 50% chance that by the time I am infected with coronavirus the system will be overwhelmed and that I will be automatically excluded from ICU and maybe even hospital admission. I am doing everything to minimize exposure and maintain immunity. Don't want to be killed by epistemological fallacy.

 

 

 

Cardiologist replied: 

Hi XXX, I entirely agree with you, and would be OK with the transition to amlodipine, I sent prescription for 5 mg of amlodipine to XXX. It is very well-tolerated, but some people might notice leg swelling. Please check your blood pressure at home daily, keep the log, and send it to me in ~2-3 weeks.

 

 

 

 

The Lancet letter avowedly presents a hypothesis, and suggests switching to CCB out of prudence.  The organized cardiologists’ responses are not completely candid.   They’re afraid that patients will quit their blood pressure meds entirely, which is certainly a bad idea.   But they obscure the choice of switching to a CCB -- I surmise they do that because they believe people would be confused about the difference between discontinuation and switching.    This is similar to public health officials in the US lacking candor about the efficacy of masks in order to divert mask supply to medical professionals.   I think it better to tell whole truths to the population rather than noble fibs.   

 

As to whether it is better to maintain on ARB:  I’m educated, but not in biochemistry.  When reading such discussions, all I can do is get the general drift and use my practiced wisdom to assess the credibility of the claimant.   Claims of a persuasive master herbalist for me are outweighed by claims from a team of medical academics reviewing Chinese data and formulating a prudential hypothesis.   I am able to confidently evaluate epistemological claims, such as those that the cardiologists make.  

 

I have three months' supply of CCB and of ARB.  I will continue to monitor discussions and will switch back to ARB if warranted. 

[Izan]

guys, remember the study (which i posted in here a few days ago): relationship between the ABO Blood Group and the COVID-19 Susceptibility    ?

 

this was its conclusion: People with blood group A have a significantly higher risk for acquiring COVID-19 compared with non-A blood groups, whereas blood group O has a significantly lower risk for the infection compared with non-O blood groups.

 

 

Now, guess who are deficient in zinc?

 

People who have bloodtype A

 

http://www.rroij.com...h.php?aid=59918

 

 

 

[thompson92]

The Lancet letter avowedly presents a hypothesis, and suggests switching to CCB out of prudence.  The organized cardiologists’ responses are not completely candid.   They’re afraid that patients will quit their blood pressure meds entirely, which is certainly a bad idea.   But they obscure the choice of switching to a CCB -- I surmise they do that because they believe people would be confused about the difference between discontinuation and switching.    This is similar to public health officials in the US lacking candor about the efficacy of masks in order to divert mask supply to medical professionals.   I think it better to tell whole truths to the population rather than noble fibs.   

 

As to whether it is better to maintain on ARB:  I’m educated, but not in biochemistry.  When reading such discussions, all I can do is get the general drift and use my practiced wisdom to assess the credibility of the claimant.   Claims of a persuasive master herbalist for me are outweighed by claims from a team of medical academics reviewing Chinese data and formulating a prudential hypothesis.   I am able to confidently evaluate epistemological claims, such as those that the cardiologists make.  

 

I have three months' supply of CCB and of ARB.  I will continue to monitor discussions and will switch back to ARB if warranted. 

 

 

The Lancet hypothesis is wrong, which is why the ESC shot it down.  ARBs are actually being teed up for a trial to STOP coronavirus, because it theoretically inhibits viral replication by holding down ACE2 at its catalytic site of action and preventing it from complexing to the virus.  I don't care about any master herbalist, he has nothing to do with this matter.  You having a blood pressure device to measure readings means nothing, because if you have excess ACE2 available from previous ACEi or ARB usage, you will provide an enormous level ACE2 material for the virus to replicate by ceasing the drug, which will now be freed up.  It points to exactly the issue discussed in the bmj article earlier in this thread, that a disproportionate amount of ANG-II (RAS Imbalance) will result in a significant negative outcome.  Your blood pressure readings will look great, then there will be a viral explosion and your health will go off a cliff.

 

Your cardiologist doesn't know what he's talking about.  He obviously isn't spending time looking at how this virus replicates.  You are very likely making a huge mistake by getting of telmisartan.

Edited by thompson92, 22 March 2020 - 03:50 PM.