3083 replies to this topic

[HBRU]

Dorian, great input as always, but are you sure IP6 would be effective against virus activity

 

 

Read this please. 

 

 

https://www.sciencea...isphosphate-ip6

 

The fact IP doesnt help (but damages) with HIV does not mean it can be VERY usefull with COVID-19....

Infected cells have to go trough apoptosis ASAP after infection (they actually produce new viruses)... IP6 triggers apoptosis (see the paper I post).

https://www.livescie...accomplice.html

 

Edited by HBRU, 03 March 2020 - 01:25 PM.

[Hip]

Regarding echinacea for coronavirus, see this post.

[HBRU]

The BAD of IP6 is only related to HIV... as it helps THAT virus to stabilize its capside... did not find any bad from IP6 for other viruses

 

"For as long as it has been studied, the HIV capsid has been known to be highly unstable on its own," structural virologist David Jacques from UNSW in Australia explained to ScienceAlert.

"This has led to theories that maybe its lack of stability is somehow important to infection. With our discovery of IP6, we now know that during infections the HIV capsid is never 'on its own'. It is always exposed to IP6, which dramatically stabilises the core of the virus."

 

https://www.sciencea...isphosphate-ip6

[HBRU]

Cellular IP₆ Levels Limit HIV Production while Viruses that Cannot Efficiently Package IP₆ Are Attenuated for Infection and Replication.

Genetic knockout of biosynthetic kinases IPMK and IPPK reveals that cellular IP₆ availability limits the production of diverse lentiviruses

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/31851928

 

https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Lentivirus

 

Edited by HBRU, 03 March 2020 - 02:53 PM.

[HBRU]

wrong post

 

Edited by HBRU, 03 March 2020 - 03:55 PM.

[HBRU]

Not yet understood....

Inositol is a good idea or NOT... ?!? It seems YES:  it is a bad idea.

 

Influenza A Viral Replication Is Blocked by Inhibition of the Inositol-requiring Enzyme 1 (IRE1) Stress Pathway

The endoplasmic reticulum (ER) stress response, also known as the unfolded protein response (UPR), is a primitive, evolutionary conserved molecular signaling cascade that has been implicated in multiple biological phenomena including innate immunity and the pathogenesis of certain viral infections.

 

ER stress is induced in the setting of certain viral infections such as hepatitis B virus, Japanese encephalitis virus, Enterovirus 71, and Moloney murine leukemia virus (MoMuLV)-ts1 (16,–,19). In some instances it plays a role in their pathogenesis. For instance, Japanese encephalitis virus, bovine diarrhea virus, tula virus, severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV), and West Nile virus have all been shown to induce their apoptotic effects through the UPR

https://www.jbc.org/...287/7/4679.long

Edited by HBRU, 03 March 2020 - 04:26 PM.

[HBRU]

When the UPR is perturbed or not sufficient to deal with the stress conditions, apoptotic cell death is initiated.
So Inositol-requiring Enzyme 1 (IRE1)/UPR Stress Pathway INHIBITORS are a good idea....

https://journals.phy...siol.00050.2006

 

Edited by HBRU, 03 March 2020 - 04:33 PM.

[HBRU]

The endoplasmic reticulum (ER) is the organelle where secretory and membrane proteins are synthesized and folded. Unfolded proteins that are retained within the ER can cause ER stress. Eukaryotic cells have a defense system called the “unfolded protein response” (UPR), which protects cells from ER stress. Cells undergo apoptosis when ER stress exceeds the capacity of the UPR, which has been revealed to cause human diseases.

 

TUDCA ???

https://www.nature.c...598-017-03940-1

 

Edited by HBRU, 03 March 2020 - 04:55 PM.

[HBRU]

TUDCA looks interesting...

 

Recently, TUDCA is implicated as a therapy for hepatitis B virus infection [21]. TUDCA also inhibits IAV replication [22] by suppressing the inositol-requiring enzyme 1 (IRE1) branch of the unfolded protein response (UPR) [22], [23], a conserved molecular network orchestrating ER pathology.

https://www.scienced...095927318304134

Edited by HBRU, 03 March 2020 - 06:05 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

When my aunt went to the hospital a few months back with pneumonia, one of the first things they asked her about was whether or not she had a flu shot.  When they found out she didn't, they gave her the jab on day one, even though she was acutely ill.  We buried her a couple of weeks later.  

 

There is evidence the flu shot can predispose (& perhaps complicate?) "other" respiratory virus...  

 

Increased Risk of Noninfluenza Respiratory Virus Infections Associated With Receipt of Inactivated Influenza Vaccine

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/22423139

 

"We randomized 115 children to trivalent inactivated influenza vaccine (TIV) or placebo. Over the following 9 months, TIV recipients had an increased risk of virologically confirmed non-influenza infections (relative risk: 4.40; 95% confidence interval: 1.31-14.8). Being protected against influenza, TIV recipients may lack temporary non-specific immunity that protected against other respiratory viruses".

 

Yet another clue for us all: 

 

Evidence That Blunted CD4 T-Cell Responses Underlie Deficient Protective Antibody Responses to Influenza Vaccines in Repeatedly Vaccinated Human Subjects

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/31504634

“Despite the benefits of yearly influenza vaccination, accumulating evidence suggests that diminished vaccine efficacy may be related to repeated vaccination.” “We find a striking disparity in their responses, with previously vaccinated subjects exhibiting significantly blunted CD4 T-cell responses and diminished antibody responses.”

 

Flu season is almost over but they are still pushing the vaccine hard, and if you are admitted to the hospital you will likely still be asked about the shot and they may try to give it to you if you haven't already had one.  Going with the flow & getting the jab may be UNWISE!  

 

Save your immune system for dealing with COVID, and don't distract it with other antigens.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 04 March 2020 - 05:18 PM.

[ambivalent]

Given this forum is something of a longecity backwater might an increase in visibility be in order, possible via a separate forum?

 

There is particular concern in the uk that peak wave-height will leave many with very limited medical care. So perhaps it is worthwhile drawing up possible strategies from pre-infection to initial infection through to life-threatening status (in the case there is no effective medical care) as well as continue to research possible antiviral supplements. Case logs of recorded effectiveness might provide some semblance of protocol confirmation or trigger revision for the virus-blighted community present or those amongst us directly connected to CV misfortunates.

 

 

 Vitamin C:

 

 

On vitamin C, this guy asserts that bowel tolerance of C sky rocket with ebola, influenza. Here he recounts putting a woman with HIV on high C dosage, claiming 25 years later, there was no trace of the virus. 

 

https://youtu.be/iPZ4UyOl7Ps?t=1226

 

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...ubmed/22429343/

 

After an overview of the literature on the effects of the separate administration of either vitamin C or zinc against the common cold, this article presents data from two preliminary, double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trials, conducted with a combination of 1000 mg vitamin C plus 10 mg zinc in patients with the common cold. In both studies, a nonsignificant reduction of rhinorrhoea duration (range 9-27%) was seen. In pooled analyses of both studies (n=94), vitamin C plus zinc was significantly more efficient than placebo at reducing rhinorrhoea over 5 days of treatment. Furthermore, symptom relief was quicker and the product was well tolerated.

 

 

 

The video interviewee claims to have consumed 2 grams every 6 minutes when down with viral pneumonia (@26.40). If bowel tolerance levels of Vitamin C do increase while subjects are sick with viral infections, it would certainly seem reasonable to expect efficacy beyond the level cited in the paper. I've stumbled across anecdotes but anyone personally experienced this heightened bowel tolerance while ill? Any studies?

 

Vitamin D. While I have no observational experience of vitamin D's anti-viral properties, I most certainly do its anti-bacterial effects - at extremely high doses. In recent years I've been prone to bacterial infections in the form of tooth abscesses, strongly correlating with instances of supplementing sublingual NAD precursors or c60oo. By and large the infection has been conquered with high doses of vitamin D, the earlier the response, the lower the required dose. During the first occurrence the pain was considerable with the infection causing noticeable facial swelling. From recollection the initial dose was 70,000iu and over the first 24 hours I took around 200,000 iu. (probably up to 100,000 in one dose since). The sensitivity improved within a couple of hours of the initial dose, considerable relief after 24 and within 48-72 hours the abscess was gone - obviously with a promise to return at a future date. In addition, during a recent chest infection I dosed 50-60,000 iu back to back days and noticed marked improvement; however, it returned resurgent as infections do at the sight of an uncompleted course of antibiotics but I was reluctant subsequent to a stretch of high dosing to treat a tooth infection, to push still higher D-levels - I could ride it out.

 

However, this is certainly not a recommendation, just an observation.  I likely failed to replete the inevitable mineral depletion sufficiently - it is a lot of guesswork and could be dangerous (possible increase in atrial fibrillation risk iirc). Though I took copious K2 it may well be that the arteries are in need of de-calcification. However, these doses are not uncharted and since vitamin D is an antiviral it may well given my experience have efficacy at doses most here wouldn't contemplate undertaking. So it is just for now in an emergency-break-glass candidate although perhaps earlier stage dosing at still high but much lower levels might be a consideration. 

 

Some reading:

 

https://www.amazon.c...k/dp/B005FCKN2S
 

This book isn't to hand but I don't recall case studies of viral infections treated through high doses of vitamin D though it may have slipped my mind.

 

Anti-microbial Implications of Vitamin D

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...MC3256336/#R137

 

 

The antiviral properties of vitamin D are discussed above but what caught my eye was the dosing level below as an anti-fungal.

 

The role of vitamin D in combating fungal infections dates back to a case series published in 1954, in which three patients with severe refractory chromoblastomycosis showed marked improvement in their skin lesions after receiving repeated treatments with 600,000 IU of calciferol.¹³⁶ Despite these early promising results—plus the ability of vitamin D to increase circulating NK cells, which may contribute to host defense against fungal organisms³⁷—subsequent findings confirming similar results have been scarce. Thus, more studies are needed to support vitamin D as an adjuvant treatment modality for fungal infection.

 

At this clinic in London a therapeutic injection of 100,000 iu can be administered. 

 

https://www.harpalcl...min-d-injection

 

So mega-dosing vitamin D is being done, not that I recall comparable instances on longecity.

 

Edited by ambivalent, 05 March 2020 - 01:50 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

"Given this forum is something of a longecity backwater might an increase in visibility be in order, possible via a separate forum?"

 

I've been thinking about a thread something like: "Your Personal COVID-19 Protocol You Plan to Follow if You Get Sick" posted in Medicine & Diseases.  A lot of good ideas have been brought up in our round table discussions.  High time we finalize our plans and share them.  I'm still learning more every day, & holding off till my plan solidifies, but it looks like COVID is going to explode over the next week or two, so perhaps it's time to poop or get off the pot.  

 

Autopsies done on COVID patients show extremely high levels of inflammation & extremely thick mucus in the lungs of those who've died.  I'm thinking moderate doses of aspirin to lower inflammation without suppressing fever too much (body uses fever to fight infection) and mucolytics (NAC & guaifenesin); combined with increasing humidity with humidifiers/steam might combat these findings from autopsy.  

 

Raw garlic is an interesting (& safe) antiviral, & iron chelation (curcumin, quercetin, echinacea, green tea) is also intriguing.  Why are children almost completely immune from advanced COVID disease?  Well, they typically have very low levels of iron compared with adults and particularly seniors.  Why is the ratio of advanced disease 2/3 male and only 1/3 female?  Well, females lose iron through menstruation, and typically have much lower iron profiles throughout their lives compared to adult males.  All pathogens require free iron to replicate, & they can't get this from protein bound iron (hemoglobin/ferritin)  If free iron can be safely sequestered, why not try this? 

 

Chris Masterjohn's findings on zinc acetate lozenges (I posted earlier in this thread) also appears to be safe, and have theoretical potential at controlling coronavirus in the upper respiratory & GI tract (COVID appears to inhabit the GI tract).  

 

Safety is of course paramount...  First Do No Harm!  This said, if we're just supposed to stay home & self isolate unless & until we go critical, I'll feel better at least trying some relatively safe and perhaps theoretically beneficial therapies.  

 

 

 

Edited by Dorian Grey, 05 March 2020 - 05:09 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

Theobromine, paraxanthine & theophylline, Oh My!  

 

My girlfriend has long suffered from asthma like respiratory issues with a highly reactive airway and chronic lung inflammation.  She's seen a lot of doctors over the years, and tried a lot of meds.  She says "nothing fixes my lungs & breathing like theophylline", though she's had some bad experiences with side effects (primarily anxiety) with theophylline.  Theophylline is a prescription med (look here: https://en.wikipedia...ki/Theophylline

 

but theobromine is found in all cocoa products (chocolate) and paraxanthine is a metabolite of caffeine.  

 

Theobromine (found in cocoa products) and paraxanthine (a metabolite of caffeine) are kissing cousins of theophylline, and apparently have been found helpful with pulmonary issues: 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/4056254

 

The bronchodilator effect and pharmacokinetics of theobromine in young patients with asthma

 

"Abstract

The bronchodilator effect of a 10 mg/kg dose of theobromine (3,7-dimethylxanthine) was compared with that of 5 mg/kg of theophylline (1,3-dimethylxanthine) in young patients with asthma. Bronchodilation, as assessed by forced vital capacity, forced expiratory volume in the first second, forced expiratory flows at 25%, 50%, and 75% of vital capacity, and percent of forced expiratory volume in the first second/forced vital capacity did not differ significantly between the two drugs. After each drug bronchodilation peaked at 2 hours and lasted for 6 hours, although it was not always statistically significant for theobromine. The mean peak serum concentrations of both drugs, the time at which peak serum concentrations occurred, and elimination half-life values were similar for theobromine and theophylline."

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/6700656

 

The bronchodilator effects and pharmacokinetics of caffeine in asthma

 

"All patients receiving caffeine metabolized it to paraxanthine, theobromine, and theophylline"

 

"Significant improvements in forced vital capacity, forced expiratory volume in one second, and forced expiratory flow rates occurred from one to six hours after administration of either caffeine or theophylline"

 

Asthma and pneumonia are two different animals, but if you find yourself struggling to breathe while sick with COVID, it probably wouldn't hurt (and just might help) to have a cup of Joe, or munch on a few chocolate bars (or both!). 

Edited by Dorian Grey, 05 March 2020 - 07:20 AM.

[albedo]

 

...

Raw garlic is an interesting (& safe) antiviral, & iron chelation (curcumin, quercetin, echinacea, green tea) is also intriguing.  Why are children almost completely immune from advanced COVID disease?  Well, they typically have very low levels of iron compared with adults and particularly seniors.  Why is the ratio of advanced disease 2/3 male and only 1/3 female?  Well, females lose iron through menstruation, and typically have much lower iron profiles throughout their lives compared to adult males.  All pathogens require free iron to replicate, & they can't get this from protein bound iron (hemoglobin/ferritin)  If free iron can be safely sequestered, why not try this? 

 

Chris Masterjohn's findings on zinc acetate lozenges (I posted earlier in this thread) also appears to be safe, and have theoretical potential at controlling coronavirus in the upper respiratory & GI tract (COVID appears to inhabit the GI tract).  

...

 

Thank you. We exchanged a lot on this in the past: so are you dropping IP6 which at least for me was highly effective (I think) for lowering ferritin and inflammation?

Also suggest to look at CA 19-9 (you look at that for pancreatic cancer), high blood levels relate to bronchial inflammation and pathologies such as bronchiectasis. Have looked at that for different reasons that Covid-19.

[Dorian Grey]

We do go way back albedo. izan82's post on page one has spooked me on IP6 during COVID.  HBRU's contributions seem to confirm, we don't really know for sure whether IP6 might be helpful or perhaps actually counterproductive.  The "first do no harm" motto is strong with me, & I don't like rolling the dice when it comes to medicine or supps.  With other chelators available, I shall focus on curcumin, quercetin, echinacea & green tea. 

 

I like the xanthines (caffeine/theobromine), not just for their bronchodilation, as they also inhibit xanthine oxidaise activity, which is known to liberate iron from ferritin.  I've been big on blood donation to lower iron for three decades now, & keep my ferritin at very "child like" levels (below 50).  Time will tell if my child like iron profile helps me survive the COVID monster.  There are a lot of theories as to why children are immune from advanced COVID & females are doing substantially better than males, but I haven't see any that are more plausible than the iron angle.  

 

High dietary xanthines combined with the other non-IP6 chelators might be a work-around for those with higher iron profiles.  Good Luck & Godspeed to us all!  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 05 March 2020 - 04:52 PM.

[lancebr]

We do go way back albedo. izan82's post on page one has spooked me on IP6 during COVID.  HBRU's contributions seem to confirm, we don't really know for sure whether IP6 might be helpful or perhaps actually counterproductive.  The "first do no harm" motto is strong with me, & I don't like rolling the dice when it comes to medicine or supps.  With other chelators available, I shall focus on curcumin, quercetin, echinacea & green tea. 

 

I like the xanthines (caffeine/theobromine), not just for their bronchodilation, as they also inhibit xanthine oxidaise activity, which is known to liberate iron from ferritin.  I've been big on blood donation to lower iron for three decades now, & keep my ferritin at very "child like" levels (below 50).  Time will tell if my child like iron profile helps me survive the COVID monster.  There are a lot of theories as to why children are immune from advanced COVID & females are doing substantially better than males, but I haven't see any that are more plausible than the iron angle.  

 

High dietary xanthines combined with the other non-IP6 chelators might be a work-around for those with higher iron profiles.  Good Luck & Godspeed to us all!  

 

I have a question concerning quercetin. 

 

I have seen articles online talking about how quercetin might be very useful in fighting this coronavirus

 

https://www.macleans...virus-outbreak/

 

But, I have seen posts, on the forums, stating that quercetin can cause DNA damage. 

 

Is quercetin safe to take due to this possible DNA damage side effect, and at what dosage and frequency would you recommend?

 

Thanks

Edited by lancebr, 05 March 2020 - 06:54 PM.

[HBRU]

I'm taking daily a BHT, it works well with enveloped viruses

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/3649561/

[Dorian Grey]

I have a question concerning quercetin. 

 

I have seen articles online talking about how quercetin might be very useful in fighting this coronavirus

 

https://www.macleans...virus-outbreak/

 

But, I have seen posts, on the forums, stating that quercetin can cause DNA damage. 

 

Is quercetin safe to take due to this possible DNA damage side effect, and at what dosage and frequency would you recommend?

 

Thanks

 

There was an interesting point made about quercetin a while back.  Can't find the link, but the argument was: "if quercetin is  so great, why does the body eliminate it so quickly".  The poster showed data that indicated the half life of quercetin in the body is indeed quite short.  So many so-called "super foods" are remarkably high in quercetin that my take-away was: quercetin is most likely beneficial in short bursts, but not something you want to mega-dose continuously throughout the day.  

 

I did look into the "possible DNA damage" issue, and honestly didn't comprehend it completely.  Still can't help but think if quercetin is bad, this means a great many vegetables (where most dietary quercetin is found) would be bad, and a vegetarian/vegan diet should dramatically increase disease associated with DNA damage.  

 

This said, I've always been a big believer in the old adage "more isn't always better"!  Supplemental quercetin probably shouldn't be taken more than once daily, & even then, mega-dosing might also be unwise.  I actually scoured the internet for the lowest dose quercetin I could find.  Swanson had a "Quercetin & Bromelain" with each cap containing 250mg of quercetin & 78mg bromelain.  The label is misleading as it says amount per serving is 500mg & 156 respectively, but the serving size is 2 caps, so I get my low dose quercetin by just taking 1/day.  The bromelain helps with absorption, & the low dose contained in a single cap dose (78mg) doesn't scare me.  

 

Green tea (fresh brewed) is the best source of natural/dietary quercetin (red onion & blueberries too), so these would be good dietary alternatives to supplementation.  

[lancebr]

There was an interesting point made about quercetin a while back.  Can't find the link, but the argument was: "if quercetin is  so great, why does the body eliminate it so quickly".  The poster showed data that indicated the half life of quercetin in the body is indeed quite short.  So many so-called "super foods" are remarkably high in quercetin that my take-away was: quercetin is most likely beneficial in short bursts, but not something you want to mega-dose continuously throughout the day.  

 

I did look into the "possible DNA damage" issue, and honestly didn't comprehend it completely.  Still can't help but think if quercetin is bad, this means a great many vegetables (where most dietary quercetin is found) would be bad, and a vegetarian/vegan diet should dramatically increase disease associated with DNA damage.  

 

This said, I've always been a big believer in the old adage "more isn't always better"!  Supplemental quercetin probably shouldn't be taken more than once daily, & even then, mega-dosing might also be unwise.  I actually scoured the internet for the lowest dose quercetin I could find.  Swanson had a "Quercetin & Bromelain" with each cap containing 250mg of quercetin & 78mg bromelain.  The label is misleading as it says amount per serving is 500mg & 156 respectively, but the serving size is 2 caps, so I get my low dose quercetin by just taking 1/day.  The bromelain helps with absorption, & the low dose contained in a single cap dose (78mg) doesn't scare me.  

 

Green tea (fresh brewed) is the best source of natural/dietary quercetin (red onion & blueberries too), so these would be good dietary alternatives to supplementation.  

 

Thanks for the info. 

 

In your opinion do you think that quercetin would be useful in protecting a person from the Covid19 coronavirus?

 

In reference to the SARS coronavirus, it was shown in studies that "The 3C-like protease (3CL(pro)) was vital for the SARS-CoV replication"

 

There was a study from 2012...."Flavonoid-mediated inhibition of SARS coronavirus 3C-like protease expressed in Pichia pastoris"

that showed that quercetin displayed good inhibition toward 3CL(pro).

 

Also, I noticed you mentioned that you are really not concerned about the amount of bromelain in that supplement.

Is there something to be concerned about having to much bromelain?

 

Thanks

[Dorian Grey]

I really haven't dug deep into the weeds with quercetin for covid, so I really don't have an opinion at this time.  Will look into your links though. 

 

Regarding the bromelain, when I first looked into this, I saw one of the properties of bromelain was its use as a meat tenderizer...  YIKES!  Leaky gut immediately came to mind.  Didn't really want to be consuming a meat tenderizer into my intestinal lumen.  As I looked into it further, I found it was also used as a stand alone supplement, with interestingly positive properties.  More on this here:  

 

https://www.hindawi....ri/2012/976203/

 

While I was scouring the internet for low dose quercetin, I was also looking at the quercetin/bromelain ratios, and found the Swanson formula to have the lowest ratio of bromelain to quercetin.  As stand alone quercetin is poorly absorbed, I compromised on the low dose quercetin with low ratio bromelain.  

 

Part of the reason for my acceptance of the value of enhanced absorption additives came from my experience with curcumin & piperine.  Curcumin is also poorly absorbed without added piperine, but when I looked into the properties of piperine, I found it modulated metabolism of toxins in the liver.  Again... YIKES!  Didn't want this!  Went with Life Extension's Super Bio-Curcumin, which achieves enhanced absorption through "micronization" rather than piperine.  Several months later, someone on the supplement forum posted documentation the amount of piperine in a dose of enhanced absorption curcumin was about equal to what would be found in 4-6 peppercorns, or one good grind of pepper on your salad.  

 

Lesson learned.  Old Paracelsus was right.  The dose really does make the poison.  I've become more accepting of the additives used for enhancement of absorption now, though I still look for low doses and low ratios of additive to product.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 06 March 2020 - 07:05 AM.

[albedo]

Importance of ventilation even probably if no evidence yet of airborne Covid-19 but good time to think about this, as per this Feb 2019 study:

 

"There is increasing evidence that aerosol transmission is a major contributor to the spread of influenza. Despite this, virtually all studies assessing the dynamics and control of influenza assume that it is transmitted solely through direct contact and large droplets, requiring close physical proximity. Here, we use wireless sensors to measure simultaneously both the location and close proximity contacts in the population of a US high school. This dataset, highly resolved in space and time, allows us to model both droplet and aerosol transmission either in isolation or in combination. In particular, it allows us to computationally quantify the potential effectiveness of overlooked mitigation strategies such as improved ventilation that are available in the case of aerosol transmission. Our model suggests that recommendation-abiding ventilation could be as effective in mitigating outbreaks as vaccinating approximately half of the population. In simulations using empirical transmission levels observed in households, we find that bringing ventilation to recommended levels had the same mitigating effect as a vaccination coverage of 50% to 60%. Ventilation is an easy-to-implement strategy that has the potential to support vaccination efforts for effective control of influenza spread."

 

Smieszek, T., Lazzari, G. & Salathé, M. Assessing the Dynamics and Control of Droplet- and Aerosol-Transmitted Influenza Using an Indoor Positioning System. Sci Rep 9, 2185 (2019). https://doi.org/10.1...598-019-38825-y

[lancebr]

I really haven't dug deep into the weeds with quercetin for covid, so I really don't have an opinion at this time.  Will look into your links though. 

 

Regarding the bromelain, when I first looked into this, I saw one of the properties of bromelain was its use as a meat tenderizer...  YIKES!  Leaky gut immediately came to mind.  Didn't really want to be consuming a meat tenderizer into my intestinal lumen.  As I looked into it further, I found it was also used as a stand alone supplement, with interestingly positive properties.  More on this here:  

 

https://www.hindawi....ri/2012/976203/

 

While I was scouring the internet for low dose quercetin, I was also looking at the quercetin/bromelain ratios, and found the Swanson formula to have the lowest ratio of bromelain to quercetin.  As stand alone quercetin is poorly absorbed, I compromised on the low dose quercetin with low ratio bromelain.  

 

Part of the reason for my acceptance of the value of enhanced absorption additives came from my experience with curcumin & piperine.  Curcumin is also poorly absorbed without added piperine, but when I looked into the properties of piperine, I found it modulated metabolism of toxins in the liver.  Again... YIKES!  Didn't want this!  Went with Life Extension's Super Bio-Curcumin, which achieves enhanced absorption through "micronization" rather than piperine.  Several months later, someone on the supplement forum posted documentation the amount of piperine in a dose of enhanced absorption curcumin was about equal to what would be found in 4-6 peppercorns, or one good grind of pepper on your salad.  

 

Lesson learned.  Old Paracelsus was right.  The dose really does make the poison.  I've become more accepting of the additives used for enhancement of absorption now, though I still look for low doses and low ratios of additive to product.  

 

Thanks again for the info.

 

So would you feel comfortable taking a curcumin supplement that used piperine in it on a daily basis?

 

 

On another note,  I was wondering if you had any thought about the use of sodium bicarbonate to increase the body's ph.

 

I noticed that one of the drugs being used over in China, that has shown good results, is the anti-malarial drug Chloroquine.

It was reported in the Johns Hopkins ABX Guide that chloroquine works on Covid19 by "by interfering with cellular acidification".

 

In one study concering its effect on virus's it stated that "The chloroquine analog is a diprotic weak base utilized for the neutrality

of acidic pH in endosomes....chloroquine analogs inhibit the viral entry and replication processes into the cytoplasm of susceptible

cells and thereby abrogate their infections"

 

It was also stated "3.3. Influence of pH Conditions on Coronaviruses Survival...The sensitivity of coronaviruses to pH variations has

been established for a number of them. They are more stable at slightly acidic pH (6 – 6.5) than at alkaline pH (8). This has been shown

for the HCoV 229E [112], the MHV [113,114], the TGEV [115] and the canine coronavirus [116]."

 

It is also interesting to see this video of an elderly lady who lived through the 1918 influenza and her mother gave them baking soda on

a daily basis and she believes that is why none of them ever caught the influenza.

 

youtu.be/7k20VFZeLKY

 

So would it be safe to take sodium bicarbonate on a daily basis....or is it a waste of time since many believe that the body would keep the

ph in check and not allow the body to become too alkaline?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

[Dorian Grey]

I use low & infrequent (once daily) doses of most everything I take, so no, I wouldn't sweat a single curcumin with piperine daily.  If you're dosing 2-3 X daily that might be a different story.  

 

Regarding the bicarb, I've read that trying to alkalize or "de-acidify" your body with bicarb or "alkalizing foods" may be an exercise in futility, but then I really don't know.  The argument I've seen is that the body is supposed to maintain its desired acid/alkaline balance fairly well and compensate for almost any dietary effect.  I really haven't studied this much on my own though.  

 

The chloroquine research is very interesting to me.  Unfortunately, American doctors are now very restricted in what they can and can not prescribe for a given diagnosis.  When I got bacterial prostatitis, I wanted to try fosfomycin rather than the sulfa or quinolone meds commonly used, as research in Europe has shown it was effective and much safer.  My urologist said he could not prescribe the fosfomycin according to the European protocol, as his computer formulary would flag him as prescribing outside FDA protocols.  I had to go to Mexico to get the fosfo, (and it worked!) 

 

The world is laughing at how American healthcare is mishandling COVID.  We can't even get proper levels of testing done, let alone treat it with anything that has not been "approved" by the FDA (basically nothing other than respiratory support & steroids).  I plan on staying home, & self-treating as long as my oxygen saturation holds up.  It's going to be a fine mess down at the triage tent outside the local hospital.  

[HBRU]

ACE-2, vitamin D, coronavirus...

https://vitamindwiki...ed by Vitamin D

[Izan]

Potential drug to block coronavirus identified

 

 

 

Summary: A clinically proven drug known to block an enzyme essential for the viral entry of Coronavirus into the lungs blocks the COVID 19 (SARS-CoV-2) infection. The drug, Camostat mesilate, is a drug approved in Japan to treat pancreatic inflammation. Results suggest this drug may also protect against COVID 19. Researchers call for further clinical trials.

Source: DPZ

Viruses must enter cells of the human body to cause disease. For this, they attach to suitable cells and inject their genetic information into these cells. Infection biologists from the German Primate Center – Leibniz Institute for Primate Research in Göttingen, together with colleagues at Charité – Universitätsmedizin Berlin, have investigated how the novel coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 penetrates cells. They have identified a cellular enzyme that is essential for viral entry into lung cells: the protease TMPRSS2. A clinically proven drug known to be active against TMPRSS2 was found to block SARS-CoV-2 infection and might constitute a novel treatment option.

The findings have been published in Cell.

Several coronaviruses circulate worldwide and constantly infect humans, which normally caused only mild respiratory disease. Currently, however, we are witnessing a worldwide spread of a new coronavirus with more than 101,000 confirmed cases and almost 3,500 deaths. The new virus has been named SARS coronavirus-2 and has been transmitted from animals to humans. It causes a respiratory disease called COVID-19 that may take a severe course. The SARS coronavirus-2 has been spreading since December 2019 and is closely related to the SARS coronavirus that caused the SARS pandemic in 2002/2003. No vaccines or drugs are currently available to combat these viruses.

Stopping virus spread

A team of scientists led by infection biologists from the German Primate Centre and including researchers from Charité, the University of Veterinary Medicine Hannover Foundation, the BG-Unfallklinik Murnau, the LMU Munich, the Robert Koch Institute and the German Center for Infection Research, wanted to find out how the new coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 enters host cells and how this process can be blocked. The researchers identified a cellular protein that is important for the entry of SARS-CoV-2 into lung cells. “Our results show that SARS-CoV-2 requires the protease TMPRSS2, which is present in the human body, to enter cells,” says Stefan Pöhlmann, head of the Infection Biology Unit at the German Primate Center. “This protease is a potential target for therapeutic intervention.”

 

 

Promising drug

Since it is known that the drug camostat mesilate inhibits the protease TMPRSS2, the researchers have investigated whether it can also prevent infection with SARS-CoV-2. “We have tested SARS-CoV-2 isolated from a patient and found that camostat mesilate blocks entry of the virus into lung cells,” says Markus Hoffmann, the lead author of the study. Camostat mesilate is a drug approved in Japan for use in pancreatic inflammation. “Our results suggest that camostat mesilate might also protect against COVID-19,” says Markus Hoffmann. “This should be investigated in clinical trials.”

 

 

 

 

https://neuroscience...reatment-15873/

[albedo]

Potential drug to block coronavirus identified

Summary: A clinically proven drug known to block an enzyme essential for the viral entry of Coronavirus into the lungs blocks the COVID 19 (SARS-CoV-2) infection. The drug, Camostat mesilate, is a drug approved in Japan to treat pancreatic inflammation. Results suggest this drug may also protect against COVID 19. Researchers call for further clinical trials.

....

No time to read the paper but just wonder to which extent if any this is linked to what I wrote before on the role of CA19-9 as marker of lung inflammation, in relatively small studies it is used to check treatment efficacy for mycobacterial driven lung diseases.

[xEva]

anyone knows the dosage of chloroquine

used for COVID-19?

 

 

[xEva]

anyone knows the dosage of chloroquine

used for COVID-19?

 

 

I only saw 2 in-vitro studies, one of 2005 and one 2020:

Besides its antiviral activity, chloroquine has an immune-modulating activity, which may synergistically enhance its antiviral effect in vivo. Chloroquine is widely distributed in the whole body, including lung, after oral administration. The EC₉₀ value of chloroquine against the 2019-nCoV in Vero E6 cells was 6.90 μM, which can be clinically achievable as demonstrated in the plasma of rheumatoid arthritis patients who received 500 mg administration.¹¹ Chloroquine is a cheap and a safe drug that has been used for more than 70 years and, therefore, it is potentially clinically applicable against the 2019-nCoV.

 

https://www.nature.c...1422-020-0282-0

 

 

Though the usual dosage of  chloroquine for  rheumatoid arthritis is 300 mg daily. And avoid light while you're at it:

 

exposure to light amplifies the risk of retinopathy in patients treated with antimalarials, dark sunglasses are recommended for patients spending much time in sunlight.

 

https://www.scienced...00293438391269X

[lancebr]

anyone knows the dosage of chloroquine

used for COVID-19?

 

The clinical information that has been released by China states that "China is recommending a treatment

regimen of 500 mg PO twice daily for patients"

 

It also states that chloroquine apperas to work based upon the following mechanisms"

 

"Interference with the cellular receptor ACE2."

 

"Impairment of acidification of endosomes, interfering with the virus trafficking within cells."

 

 

The only problem with this is that 500 mg twice daily is a much higher amount then what is usually used for

malaria prevention,

 

At these dosages there can be some serious side effects like cardiac arrest and death.  Also, it is important at

these dosages that the patient have kidney's that are operating at peak performance or it can lead to other

serious side effects or death.  This makes it harder to use on the elderly since a lot of them will have impaired

kidney function due to their age. 

 

This is the type of treatment that would have be done in a hospital setting so the patient could be monitored

for cardiac issues or renal failure due to the dosage level.  For this reason it makes it a treatment that might

not be doable on a large scale since hospitals might not have the resources to monitor everyone for these

issues if this starts becoming a large epidemic.

[lancebr]

I was interested in finding out more about the effect that chloroquine had with interference of ACE2 and in my research

I found that there are some substances that are potentially inhibitors of ACE2.  These include:

 

Glycyrrhizin ( a property of Licorice root)

Hesperetin  (a flavanoid)

Nicotianamine

Baicalin/Scutellarin (Skullcaps plant)

Quercetin (a flavanoid)

 

I must mention that I say "potentially" inhibitors of ACE2 because the studies either are test tube or mice.

 

BUT, while researching each one of these substances I noticed something they all had in common.

They all have some ability to remove iron from the body.

 

Earlier in this thread Dorian mentioned that children have lower levels of iron compared to adults, and

men have higher levels compared to women,  That might be the reason that children seem immune to this

virus and more men seem to be getting it.

 

So, I just thought it was interesting that these substances that have a potential to inhibit ACE2 also have

the iron chelation in common.