3083 replies to this topic

[Hebbeh]

Kalliste, I'd like to read that report about Russia. Do you have the link?

thanks

 

A different but interesting on another level report out of Russia (sounds familiar like China):

 

https://dnyuz.com/20...-virus-figures/

[Dorian Grey]

New study on use of hdroxychloroquine and azithromycin:

 

 

https://www.scienced...399077X20300858

 

"There were 7 men and 4 women with a mean age of 58.7 years (range: 20-77), 8 had significant comorbidities  associated  with  poor  outcomes  (obesity:  2;  solid  cancer:  3;  hematological cancer: 2; HIV-infection: 1).  At the time of treatment initiation, 10/11 had fever and received nasal oxygen therapy."

 

-------------------

 

A lot of these patients had some pretty substantial comorbidities and already on oxygen with what looks like advanced stage COVID.  I'm not surprised they didn't see impressive results.  Perhaps early initiation of therapy in patients that aren't already dying would have been more realistic for the average Jane & Joe.  

[xEva]

New study on use of hdroxychloroquine and azithromycin:

 

 

https://www.scienced...399077X20300858

 

 

 

Well, here they essentially poo-poo the original French study, which had  20 patients, 6 of which, in addition to hydroxychloroquine also received azithromycin. This study had 11 patients: "7 men and 4 women with a mean age of 58.7 years (range: 20-77), 8 had significant comorbidities associated with poor outcomes (obesity: 2; solid cancer: 3; hematological cancer: 2; HIV-infection: 1)."

 

In the original French study had mild cases and the 3 patients who were later transferred to ICU were dropped out. In contrast, this study was "in Patients with Severe COVID-19 Infection" and their group already had trouble breathing on their own: "At the time of treatment initiation, 10/11 had fever and received nasal oxygen therapy."

 

IMO this study only supports Zelenko and Raoult who insist that the therapy should be initiated as early as possible, while the symptoms are still bearable and the virus has not done much damage yet.

 

 

PS

totally agree with you, Dorian. I did not see your post, coz I was posting at the same time

Edited by xEva, 06 April 2020 - 03:12 AM.

[Kalliste]

I take hot baths almost every day now, would visit a sauna but it feels a bit risky. My pet theory is that if I am incubating a hot induced fever might check the virus a bit before the body had time to start it's own fever.

 

 

Dorish Loh is an "independent researcher" who's training is as a pianist.  Looking at her articles she apparently believes a lot of what I would consider to be fringe science.  So the fact that she's going "all in on oral ascorbic acid" doesn't exactly wow me.

 

Taken with a grain of salt of course but she isn't the first person to look at C-vitamin. It is being prescribed at hospitals both orally and intravenously for this very disease though they give only a tiny amount orally, 2000mg/day IIRC. You know as well as I do many DR's have a big problem with un-sexy substances.

 

Whole disease stinks of hyper inflammation and oxidative stress. People who get most sick have high oxidative stress (fattoes, aged to deathers, diabetes, hyper tension)

Starting out with something like that might be the difference between getting tubed and coofing it out at home for those of us in a good shape.

Anything to quell the disease early on.

 

I would prefer intravenous treatment and a lot of it along with whatever else is being burned through (potassium/magnesium etc)

 

I think, even though he is saying they were "discharged with covid-19", he means they were sent home because their symptoms were mild.  ---  Or do you think they were "discharged" as in 'cured'?

 

Kalliste, I'd like to read that report about Russia. Do you have the link?

thanks

Sorry can't find it now. Time dilation of news is extreme, every day is like a month in this torrent of info. It could have been made up of course.  Many tweets are gone the next day when I go look for them.

 

 

Dr Declan G. Byrne, Clinical Senior Lecturer, St James’s Hospital and School of Medicine, Trinity, says these recommendations are important while we await development of a vaccine and trial evidence of effective drug treatment for Covid-19. “Our findings call for the immediate supplementation of all hospital inpatients, nursing home residents and older Irish adults with vitamin D. Our findings also suggest that vitamin D supplementation in the broader adult population, and particularly in frontline healthcare workers, may further help to limit infection and flatten the Covid-19 curve.”

https://www.irspen.i...uding-covid-19/

 

 

 

The FDA-approved Drug Ivermectin inhibits the replication of SARS-CoV-2 in vitro  

Highlights

•

Ivermectin is an inhibitor of the COVID-19 causative virus (SARS-CoV-2) in vitro.

•

A single treatment able to effect ∼5000-fold reduction in virus at 48h in cell culture.

•

Ivermectin is FDA-approved for parasitic infections, and therefore has a potential for repurposing.

•

Ivermectin is widely available, due to its inclusion on the WHO model list of essential medicines.

https://www.scienced...166354220302011

 

Jack Kruse is saying nicotine gums to downregulate IL6 (IIRC), ascorbic acid and maybe melatonin should be first line treatment for anyone who develops symtoms, seems simple enough so I bought a pack of gums.

 91790200_927201561032200_1033084134567706624_n.jpg   32.92KB   0 downloads

Edited by Kalliste, 06 April 2020 - 05:36 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

I take hot baths almost every day now, would visit a sauna but it feels a bit risky. My pet theory is that if I am incubating a hot induced fever might check the virus a bit before the body had time to start it's own fever.

 

 

 

Taken with a grain of salt of course but she isn't the first person to look at C-vitamin. It is being prescribed at hospitals both orally and intravenously for this very disease though they give only a tiny amount orally, 2000mg/day IIRC. You know as well as I do many DR's have a big problem with un-sexy substances.

 

Whole disease stinks of hyper inflammation and oxidative stress. People who get most sick have high oxidative stress (fattoes, aged to deathers, diabetes, hyper tension)

Starting out with something like that might be the difference between getting tubed and coofing it out at home for those of us in a good shape.

Anything to quell the disease early on.

 

I would prefer intravenous treatment and a lot of it along with whatever else is being burned through (potassium/magnesium etc)

 

Sorry can't find it now. Time dilation of news is extreme, every day is like a month in this torrent of info. It could have been made up of course.  Many tweets are gone the next day when I go look for them.

 

 

https://www.irspen.i...uding-covid-19/

 

 

https://www.scienced...166354220302011

 

Jack Kruse is saying nicotine gums to downregulate IL6 (IIRC), ascorbic acid and maybe melatonin should be first line treatment for anyone who develops symtoms, seems simple enough so I bought a pack of gums.

91790200_927201561032200_1033084134567706624_n.jpg

 

If you're going to be taking quinine as a bridge to proper hydroxychloroquine therapy, keep in mind nicotine (and caffeine) ramp up CYP-450 enzymes that will metabolize (clear) quinine quickly from your system.  Cimetidine (brand name Tagamet) inhibits metabolism of quinine.  I love my coffee, & true confessions, I do smoke (a pipe). 

 

Have read the effect (caffeine/nicotine induction of CYP-450 metabolism) diminishes quite swiftly upon cessation of use, so I'm banking on swift action (abstinence) at first symptoms and cimetidine reining in the hyper-metabolism of quinine.  

 

Mind how you go, & stay healthy!  

[lancebr]

I take hot baths almost every day now, would visit a sauna but it feels a bit risky. My pet theory is that if I am incubating a hot induced fever might check the virus a bit before the body had time to start it's own fever.

 

 

 

Taken with a grain of salt of course but she isn't the first person to look at C-vitamin. It is being prescribed at hospitals both orally and intravenously for this very disease though they give only a tiny amount orally, 2000mg/day IIRC. You know as well as I do many DR's have a big problem with un-sexy substances.

 

Whole disease stinks of hyper inflammation and oxidative stress. People who get most sick have high oxidative stress (fattoes, aged to deathers, diabetes, hyper tension)

Starting out with something like that might be the difference between getting tubed and coofing it out at home for those of us in a good shape.

Anything to quell the disease early on.

 

I would prefer intravenous treatment and a lot of it along with whatever else is being burned through (potassium/magnesium etc)

 

Sorry can't find it now. Time dilation of news is extreme, every day is like a month in this torrent of info. It could have been made up of course.  Many tweets are gone the next day when I go look for them.

 

 

https://www.irspen.i...uding-covid-19/

 

 

https://www.scienced...166354220302011

 

Jack Kruse is saying nicotine gums to downregulate IL6 (IIRC), ascorbic acid and maybe melatonin should be first line treatment for anyone who develops symtoms, seems simple enough so I bought a pack of gums.

91790200_927201561032200_1033084134567706624_n.jpg

 

So who is correct about the nicotine and IL-6? 

 

Here is a study from last year and from 2105 saying nicotine stimulates IL-6.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/30317657

 

https://www.scienced...991790214000403

 

 

There are a lot of substances that seem to inhibit IL-6:

 

• Zinc [65]
• Magnesium [66]
• Probiotics: B. infantis [67], S. boulardii [68], L. casei [69], L. Salivarius [70]
• Trehalose [71, 72]
• EGCG[73]
• Vitamin D3 [74]
• Andrographis/Andrographolide (more potent than dexamethasone) [76]  .
• Curcumin [78, 79]
• Licorice [80]
• Fisetin [82]
• Cinnamon [63
• Boswellia [85]
• Lithium [86]
• Hydroxytyrosol [87]
• Apigenin [63]
• Luteolin [88]
• Quercetin [63]
• Resveratrol (500 mg, with 5 g leucine) [79, 89]

 

Edited by lancebr, 06 April 2020 - 07:03 AM.

[spike]

Yesterday on twitter I stumbled on another interesting hypothesis that covid-19 leads to a multiorgan thrombotic microvasculopathy - http://farid.jalali....d19emailpdf.pdf. Here's a quick summary of what might be helpful, provided that's the case, according to the author:

• Avoid NSAID's as they worsen endothelial dysfunction via inhibition of PGI2
• Chronic ACE inhibitor use, and its cessation upon hospital admission, is a risk factor for severe fatal COVID-19 (the virus binds to the freed ACE2 receptors on endothelium of a variety of organs)
• Statins, ACE-I, NAC, Vitamin C, and Trental all can possibly stabilize endothelial dysfunction which seems to be the precursor for microvascular thrombosis
• Lovenox SC could theoretically prevent the thrombotic cascade from occurring (could be used as prophylaxis upon covid-19 confirmation)
• Shock in COVID19 may be better responsive to low-dose epinephrine with its vasodilatory effects
• tPA / heparin / Defibrotide potentially useful to treat LATE-stage severe COVID-19

 

Note, it's still only a hypothesis and requires more scrutiny but I thought it's worth a share nonetheless

[pamojja]

So who is correct about the nicotine and IL-6?

 

This not finalized meta-analysis seems to support that tobacco for some reason might act protective:

 

 

https://www.qeios.com/read/article/561

Abstract The study purpose was to examine the prevalence of current e-cigarette use and current smoking among hospitalized patients with COVID-19 in China, considering the high population smoking prevalence in the country (26.6%, 50.5% in males and 2.1% in females). A systematic research of the literature (PubMed) was performed on April 1. Out of 432 studies, we identified 13 studies examining the clinical characteristics of a total of 5960 hospitalized COVID-19 patients that presented data on the smoking status. No study reported e-cigarette use among COVID-19 patients. The prevalence of current smoking ranged from 1.4% to 12.6%. The random effect pooled prevalence of current smoking was 6.5% (95%CI: 4.9-8.2%). This preliminary analysis does not support the argument that current smoking is a risk factor for hospitalization for COVID-19. Instead, these consistent observations, which are further emphasized by the low prevalence of current smoking among COVID-19 patients in the US (1.3%), raises the hypothesis that nicotine may have beneficial effects on COVID-19. This could be attributed to its immunomodulatory effects and its interaction with the renin-angiotensin system. However, other confounding factors need to be considered and the accuracy of the recorded smoking status needs to be determined. However, the results were remarkably consistent across all studies and were recently verified in the first case series of COVID-19 cases in the US. In conclusion, the generalized advice to quit smoking as a measure to improve health risk remains valid, but no recommendation can currently be made concerning the effects of smoking on the risk of hospitalization for COVID-19. No studies recording e-cigarette use status among hospitalized COVID-19 patients were identified. Thus, no recommendation can be made for e-cigarette users. The above-mentioned observations, together with the potential mechanisms through which nicotine interacts with the inflammatory process and the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone axis involved in the development of COVID-19, warrant an urgent investigation of the clinical effects of pharmaceutical nicotine on COVID-19 susceptibility, progression and severity.

 

[AndrewVA]

I am still do not have a definitive understanding on the position of taking angiotensin II receptor antagonists (ARBs) or not.  Some of the articles seem to indicate there is a higher risk with COVID19 if one was taking these, while recently some of the articles have indicated that taking these may actually be beneficial in protecting against COVID19.

 

I am taking Benicar (olmesartan) 40mg / daily.  Would the consensus on this forum be to continue with Benicar or to switch to a different drug class from ARBs or ACE inhibitors?

 

Your feedback and advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks.

 

Andrew

[resveratrol_guy]

I am still do not have a definitive understanding on the position of taking angiotensin II receptor antagonists (ARBs) or not.  Some of the articles seem to indicate there is a higher risk with COVID19 if one was taking these, while recently some of the articles have indicated that taking these may actually be beneficial in protecting against COVID19.

 

I am taking Benicar (olmesartan) 40mg / daily.  Would the consensus on this forum be to continue with Benicar or to switch to a different drug class from ARBs or ACE inhibitors?

 

Your feedback and advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks.

 

Andrew

 

Logically, you would want all the receptors blocked all the time. So I would take the maximum dose that I could safely tolerate, broken as evenly as possible throughout the day (probably delivered IV at a measured rate). I have no insights as to which particular drug would be ideal.

 

I suspect that studies which find them to be harmful involve patients on the drugs who, upon admission, quit taking them (because they usually need to be consumed orally, which isn't viable on a ventilator, or because they forgot them in the rush to the hospital), resulting in an explosion in viral load above and beyond their previous growth rate. And all else being equal, they're a proxy for cardiovascular age, so there's some degree of sample bias at work.

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 06 April 2020 - 11:37 AM.

[ta5]

This is an interesting letter to the editor suggesting 5ar inhibitors could be a treatment:

 

Dermatol Ther. 2020 Apr 1:e13365. 

WHAT DOES ANDROGENETIC ALOPECIA HAVE TO DO WITH COVID-19? AN INSIGHT INTO A POTENTIAL NEW THERAPY.

Goren A1, Mc Coy J1, Wambier CG2, Vano-Galvan S3, Shapiro J4, Dhurat R5, Washenik K6,7, Lotti T8.

PMID: 32237190

...epidemiological reports unveiled a disproportionate low rate of severe cases among adult females compared to adult males, 42% and 58%, respectively (1). Similarly, the rate of severe cases among pre-pubescent children was exceptionally low at 0.6% (1)....

 

In newborns, it has long been recognized that male infants are more susceptible to respiratory distress syndrome (2) and less likely to respond to prenatal glucocorticoid therapy to protect against respiratory distress (3). Respiratory distress is intimately tied to the production of pulmonary surfactant, e.g., pulmonary surfactant proteins have been demonstrated to protect against influenza A (4). In animal studies, it was demonstrated that a sexual dimorphism in fetal pulmonary surfactant production is influenced by the androgen receptor (AR) (5). For example, in rabbits, dihydrotestosterone was shown to inhibit fetal pulmonary surfactant production in both males and females while an anti-androgen, flutamide, was demonstrated to remove the sexual dimorphism in surfactant production (3). While severe COVID-19 symptoms are primarily manifested in older adults, the similar sexual dimorphism in the severity of respiratory disease is of interest. In addition, AR expression is low prior to pubertal maturation and may contribute to the low incidence of severe COVID-19 infection in children (6-8). As such, we propose that the lower rate of severe COVID-19 infection in female patients may be attributed to lower androgen receptor expression (9,10).

 

Additional evidence to the possible implication of androgens in COVID-19 infection severity is found in the molecular mechanism required for SARS-CoV-2 infectivity. SARS-CoV-2 is part of the coronavirus family of viruses including SARS-CoV-1 and MERS-CoV. Coronavirus predominantly infects type II pneumocytes in the human lung (11). Previously, it was demonstrated that SARS-CoV-2 cell entry depends on priming of a viral spike surface protein by transmembrane protease serine 2 (TMPRSS2) present in the host (12, 13). In type II pneumocytes, TMPRSS2 expression is associated with an increase in androgen receptor (AR) expression (14), specifically connecting AR expression to SARS-CoV-2, due to AR-regulated TMPRSS2 gene promoter (Fig.1) (15). Moreover, angiotensin converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) has been recognized as the attachment molecule to the viral spike surface protein, thus termed the “receptor of SARS-CoV-2”.(16) Interestingly, ACE2 has been shown to have reduced activity by the decrease of androgen hormones (experimental orchidectomy), possibly by decreased expression of ACE2 (17).

 

To test this hypothesis, it would be informative to study the epidemiology of COVID-19 patients that are predisposed to either lower or higher AR expression, such as, males suffering from androgenetic alopecia, benign prostatic hyperplasia or women suffering from polycystic ovary syndrome. In addition, analyzing ethnic variation in AR expression may predict COVID-19 ethnic mortality differences. Additionally, the activation of AR can be reduced by several classes of drugs including androgen receptor antagonists, androgen synthesis inhibitors and antigonadotropins. For example, the FDA-approved 5-alpha reductase inhibitor finasteride demonstrated reduction of activation of AR in multiple tissues (10). Other potential drugs that could be studied include: cyproterone acetate, megestrol acetate, chlormadinone acetate, spironolactone, medrogestone, oxendolone, osaterone, bifluranol acetate, flutamide, bicalutamide, nilutamide, topilutamide, enzalutamide, apalutamide, dienogest, drospirenone, medrogestone, nomegestrol acetate, promegestone, trimegestone, ketoconazole, abiraterone acetate, seviteronel, aminoglutethimide, dutasteride, epristeride, alfaestradiol and isotretinoin. Taken together, the evidence warrants further studies to elucidate the role (if any) of the androgen receptor on the severity of COVID-19 infection.

 

TMPRSS2 gene transcription promoter site requires an activated androgen receptor, with androgens such as testosterone. Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) a potent androgen receptor activator and is intracellularly produced in particular cells of tissues such as prostate, hair and liver that express 5-alpha-reductases, the targeted enzyme for drugs such as dutasteride and finasteride (5-alpha-reductase inhibitors).

 

[Rosanna]

 

So who is correct about the nicotine and IL-6? 

 

Here is a study from last year and from 2105 saying nicotine stimulates IL-6.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/30317657

 

https://www.scienced...991790214000403

 

 

There are a lot of substances that seem to inhibit IL-6:

 

• Zinc [65]
• Magnesium [66]
• Probiotics: B. infantis [67], S. boulardii [68], L. casei [69], L. Salivarius [70]
• Trehalose [71, 72]
• EGCG[73]
• Vitamin D3 [74]
• Andrographis/Andrographolide (more potent than dexamethasone) [76]  .
• Curcumin [78, 79]
• Licorice [80]
• Fisetin [82]
• Cinnamon [63
• Boswellia [85]
• Lithium [86]
• Hydroxytyrosol [87]
• Apigenin [63]
• Luteolin [88]
• Quercetin [63]
• Resveratrol (500 mg, with 5 g leucine) [79, 89]

 

 

The herbalist I mentioned a few pages back also suggested resveratrol, but strangely David Sinclair mentioned that he probably would not take it if he were working in a hospital right now... interview with James Altucher entitled Coronavirus Update: How to Boost Your Immunity in Times of Pandemic with Biologist David Sinclair....from memory it's probably just over half way through...

 

 

 

 

 

[osris]

I read that Covid-19 uses the immune system to attack your lungs. If true, then taking immune boosting supplements would be a bad idea.

[OP2040]

I read that Covid-19 uses the immune system to attack your lungs. If true, then taking immune boosting supplements would be a bad idea.

 

This idea has been asserted many times in this thread, and the evidence for it is thin to non-existence.  If you can provide that evidence, then please do. 

 

We should all keep in mind that ANY virus will make an immune response if we are lucky.  And things like IL-6 going up is not evidence for immune attack, because IL-6 is necessary for anti-viral defense.  I'm not saying it's not a factor, just that we don't have the evidence.

 

At this point I want to know how to enhance a cytotoxic T-cell response.   Along with many viruses, this one seems to inhibit T-cell activity as well as NK cell activity.  Mushrooms are good for the NK cell activity.   But still don't have a good solution for maintaining a good T-cell response. 

 

I'm basing all of my strategy on the fact that young people are indeed not being killed at remotely the same rate as old people, and particularly very old people.  To me this implicates immunosenescence and a lack of effective immune response as a major problem here. 

[Dorian Grey]

I read that Covid-19 uses the immune system to attack your lungs. If true, then taking immune boosting supplements would be a bad idea.

 

From what I've gathered, a swift initial immune response is desirable: 

 

Ben Neuman PhD is head of the biology department at Texas A&M University-Texarkana. He has worked with coronaviruses for 24 years.

 

"In people who survive infections with coronaviruses and do well, if you check their blood afterward, as we found with SARS, you find out that they have a really good killer T cell response. And the ones who don’t do well did not really make a killer T cell response.”

 

----------------------------

 

Don't know if the cytokine storm might be problematic if the initial response fails.  

 

Functional exhaustion of antiviral lymphocytes in COVID-19 patients

“functional exhaustion of cytotoxic lymphocytes is correlated with disease progression”

 

Sorry I don't have links. These are from my notes.

[OP2040]

Anybody else using Lactoferrin in their strategy and why?  This was at one time on my list for antiviral stuff, but something about it made me hesitant to use it even though it has good antiviral activity in theory.  Maybe it was the iron that made me wary of it, I don't remember.

[Dorian Grey]

This not finalized meta-analysis seems to support that tobacco for some reason might act protective:

 

Thanks for this pamojja.  Afraid I've been smoking all my life.  Switched to a pipe 25 years ago.  Lungs have apparently survived quite well.  No chronic cough, & I hike up and over the 100 steps at the San Diego Convention Center without getting winded.  Actually have to wait for my non-smoking girlfriend to catch up.

 

Have been wrestling with the thought I really should quit now, but nicotine really is the most comforting drug I've ever known.  I'll have to quit if I need a quinine bridge to one of the chloroquine meds as nicotine use increases quinine clearance, but for now, I'm still puffing away.  

[Dorian Grey]

Anybody else using Lactoferrin in their strategy and why?  This was at one time on my list for antiviral stuff, but something about it made me hesitant to use it even though it has good antiviral activity in theory.  Maybe it was the iron that made me wary of it, I don't remember.

 

I got some lactoferrin, as it does seem to stimulate immune response, which seems to be the Holy Grail of preventing COVID from going critical:  

 

Ben Neuman PhD is head of the biology department at Texas A&M University-Texarkana. He has worked with coronaviruses for 24 years.

 

"In people who survive infections with coronaviruses and do well, if you check their blood afterward, as we found with SARS, you find out that they have a really good killer T cell response. And the ones who don’t do well did not really make a killer T cell response.”

 

----------------------

 

Started taking it, and wound up with some intestinal (colon) inflammation and incredible anal itching and inflammation.  A bit of research (I don't have at my fingertips at the moment) seemed to indicate my symptoms may have been lactoferrin related.  I'm still taking this, but only one cap every other or third day, with symptoms all but gone.  

[osris]

This idea has been asserted many times in this thread, and the evidence for it is thin to non-existence.  If you can provide that evidence, then please do. 

 

We should all keep in mind that ANY virus will make an immune response if we are lucky.  And things like IL-6 going up is not evidence for immune attack, because IL-6 is necessary for anti-viral defense.  I'm not saying it's not a factor, just that we don't have the evidence.

 

At this point I want to know how to enhance a cytotoxic T-cell response.   Along with many viruses, this one seems to inhibit T-cell activity as well as NK cell activity.  Mushrooms are good for the NK cell activity.   But still don't have a good solution for maintaining a good T-cell response. 

 

I'm basing all of my strategy on the fact that young people are indeed not being killed at remotely the same rate as old people, and particularly very old people.  To me this implicates immunosenescence and a lack of effective immune response as a major problem here. 

 

I read it here:

 

Quote:

 

"The virus that causes COVID-19 -- SARS-CoV-2, or severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus -- infects the cells that line the respiratory tract from the nose down into the lungs, where it causes cells to die and creates an immune reaction," Dr. Ben Singer, a pulmonary and critical care specialist at Northwestern Memorial Hospital, told UPI.

 

"That immune reaction helps to clear the virus, but can also cause damage to the lungs as well," Singer said.

 

https://www.upi.com/.../5651585241656/

[OP2040]

It's a mixed bag.  Nicotine clearly has some protective effects for some of the most scary diseases and people are afraid to admit it for fear of it undermining the anti-smoking campaigns.  There are a number of "smoking paradoxes" out there, of which the Japanese and French examples immediately come to mind.

 

On the other hand, any form of inhaled combustion has many, many negative health effects.  This is why the current pot craze really annoys me.  Cannabis and Cannabinoids have some wonderful and potentially useful properties.  But encouraging people to deliver it via combustion is terrible.  And yes, I know plenty of people that smoke pot every day all day, so they aren't really protected much by limited use.

 

I agree that people probably don't need to quit smoking for coronavirus, the science doesn't back that up.  But hopefully you can quite combustion eventually Dorian, as the risks definitely outweigh the benefits. 

[Izan]

new study:

 

Correlation between universal BCG vaccination policy and reduced morbidity and mortality for COVID-19

 

 

COVID-19 has spread to most countries in the world. Puzzlingly, the impact of the disease is different in different countries. These differences are attributed to differences in cultural norms, mitigation efforts, and health infrastructure. Here we propose that national differences in COVID-19 impact could be partially explained by the different national policies respect to Bacillus Calmette-Guerin (BCG) childhood vaccination. BCG vaccination has been reported to offer broad protection to respiratory infections. We compared large number of countries BCG vaccination policies with the morbidity and mortality for COVID-19. We found that countries without universal policies of BCG vaccination (Italy, Nederland, USA) have been more severely affected compared to countries with universal and long-standing BCG policies. Countries that have a late start of universal BCG policy (Iran, 1984) had high mortality, consistent with the idea that BCG protects the vaccinated elderly population. We also found that BCG vaccination also reduced the number of reported COVID-19 cases in a country. The combination of reduced morbidity and mortality makes BCG vaccination a potential new tool in the fight against COVID-19.

 

https://www.medrxiv....3.24.20042937v1

More research on BCG (anti tuberculosis vaccine) and its effectiveness against COVID-19.

 

This new study was done at the University of Houston in Texas.

 

 

https://www.irishtim...K7eOZh4.twitter

[resveratrol_guy]

From what I've gathered, a swift initial immune response is desirable: 

----------------------------

Don't know if the cytokine storm might be problematic if the initial response fails. 

 

I found some relevant research as described in this post. Basic strategy seems to be: allow an aggressive immune response early on, but help out with antiviral drugs, and if the immune system goes into overdrive, smack it with rapamycin.

[zorba990]

Here is a Boston doctor who says people previously discharged are coming back even sicker:

https://twitter.com/...830942741815300

If this is the case then the Virus is perhaps mutating quickly which puts a bit of a damper on a Vaccine.

[OP2040]

 

 

"That immune reaction helps to clear the virus, but can also cause damage to the lungs as well," Singer said.

 

https://www.upi.com/.../5651585241656/

 

 

I get it that this is something to be mindful of.  However, this statement could be said of almost any acute viral infection so it doesn't really mean much.  The body needs to mount an attach and there will be collateral damage. 

 

Still, I take the idea seriously enough that I will probably quite all immunostimulatory supplements the moment I become aware of an active infection,  IMO, timing is everything.  An hyper-active immune system before and at the onset of infection I would imagine to be a great thing, but then the longer it lasts after the infection without clearing the virus, the more problematic it becomes. 

[OP2040]

Sorry, I see a lot of you guys already posted similar ideas.  This is a weird virus though with the timing.  I'm curious how it can stay so asymptomatic for up to a week and then suddenly turn severe.  That asymptomatic week would seem to suggest that the initial immune response is either extremely efficient or extremely lacking.  Not really sure what to make of it.

[lancebr]

Anybody else using Lactoferrin in their strategy and why?  This was at one time on my list for antiviral stuff, but something about it made me hesitant to use it even though it has good antiviral activity in theory.  Maybe it was the iron that made me wary of it, I don't remember.

 

Like you I was also planning on taking it but I remember that there was concern that it raised

iron in the body which was something you don't want with a virus and there was one other

thing but can't remember it at this time.

 

I do have some apolactoferrin, which is not suppose to raise iron in the body, but I still don't

know why I havent started taking it yet for some reason.
 

Edited by lancebr, 06 April 2020 - 04:24 PM.

[lancebr]

More research on BCG (anti tuberculosis vaccine) and its effectiveness against COVID-19.

 

This new study was done at the University of Houston in Texas.

 

 

https://www.irishtim...K7eOZh4.twitter

 

From the information I have seen so far this might be a good preventative option.

 

Australia has been giving it to its healthcare workers to see if it does prevent them from

getting it.

 

I don't think you can get it here in the U.S. easily.  I have looked online and have found no

mention of it being offered as a vaccine at the moment where you can go and pay for it and

get poked.
 

[osris]

IMO, timing is everything.  An hyper-active immune system before and at the onset of infection I would imagine to be a great thing, but then the longer it lasts after the infection without clearing the virus, the more problematic it becomes. 

 

I agree. Once you have any symptoms any supplements to boost immunity might cause some collateral damage as you say.

 

I've had slight flu symptoms (could be covid) for a few weeks now. 

 

I've been taking during that time grape seed extract, niacinamide, olive leaf extract, and started a few days ago on 1400 mg of garlic supplements. None of which have cleared the symptoms.

 

I'm beginning to think that maybe too much antioxidants and immune boosters might be suppressing the full symptoms from showing, and therefore not allowing my body to "eject" the flu. In other words, they are causing a blockage, a sort of flu symptom constipation.

 

If this is the case, would going cold turkey on these supplements allow nature to take its course? 

[OP2040]

I agree. Once you have any symptoms any supplements to boost immunity might cause some collateral damage as you say.

 

I've had slight flu symptoms (could be covid) for a few weeks now. 

 

I've been taking during that time grape seed extract, niacinamide, olive leaf extract, and started a few days ago on 1400 mg of garlic supplements. None of which have cleared the symptoms.

 

I'm beginning to think that maybe too much antioxidants and immune boosters might be suppressing the full symptoms from showing, and therefore not allowing my body to "eject" the flu. In other words, they are causing a blockage, a sort of flu symptom constipation.

 

If this is the case, would going cold turkey on these supplements allow nature to take its course? 

 

Well, a simplistic but potentially helpful view is that you are correct and anti-oxidants in particular should be stopped.  That means the G.S.E in particular and possibly the Olive Leaf (not sure on that one)  Antioxidants do clearly have a protective effect on cells and it makes sense that they might limit a cytotoxic immune response.  I do have NAC on my list but it's a separate pathway from the usual anti-oxidants.  And of course Vitamin C, which aids the immune system directly,. despite it's potentially cyto-protective effects.

 

Three weeks is a bit long for a viral illness but not unprecedented.  Seems like Boris Johnson is having that same issue.  Nothing critical,  but lasting for an extended period.  I suppose that's better than a ventilator.

Edited by OP2040, 06 April 2020 - 04:25 PM.

[pamojja]

I've been taking during that time grape seed extract, niacinamide, olive leaf extract, and started a few days ago on 1400 mg of garlic supplements. None of which have cleared the symptoms.

 

Titrating to bowel tolerance for sure would help, if you dosed at least above 80% of your bowel tolerance. Just got rid of a persistant cold and cough myself. However, severe colds can need already more than 100 g per day of ascorbic acid. In my case didn't reach my bowel-tolerance with even 67 g/d. But all symptoms gone.

 

The other supplements mentioned I do take on a regular basis, along with 24 g of ascorbid acid per day for more than 11 years now (for maintaining remission from a walking-disabilty due to PAD).