3083 replies to this topic

[Dorian Grey]

FDA cautions against use of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine for COVID-19 outside of the hospital setting or a clinical trial due to risk of heart rhythm problems

 

[4-24-2020] FDA Drug Safety Communication

 

https://www.fda.gov/...ital-setting-or

 

It's the end of the world as we know it!  

[Daniel Cooper]

The FDA will always caution against anything that they aren't the gatekeeper of.

 

 

[Gal220]

FDA cautions against use of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine for COVID-19 outside of the hospital setting or a clinical trial due to risk of heart rhythm problems

 

[4-24-2020] FDA Drug Safety Communication

 

https://www.fda.gov/...ital-setting-or

 

It's the end of the world as we know it!  

 

This one LA practitioner says he has treated several very ill patients with HCQ + zinc and they all recovered in 8-12 hours

 

 

 

There is still Quercetin + zinc , over the counter.

 

I think Arizona state video has the best information I have seen for CoVid , you just have to skip to the 35 minute mark for the good stuff.

 

 

 

What are peoples thoughts on this Quercetin Regimen if ill? Look for the Robert posts

https://nutritionalp...-and-quercetin/

 

500mg Quercetin + 10mg zinc on empty stomach 2x a day, at least 5 hours apart

[resveratrol_guy]

So my GP phoned to say she didn't have PPE, so don't come here-but sent a referral letter to casualty. Had ECG and bloods done,inc.trop, twice; ECG and bloods were normal according to the Doc there. Xray was clear also- asked if it could be heart failure,again the answer was unlikely,but it could be heart related or COVID ,although she didn't think it was that also.Remarkably, although I was in the "dirty" area, eg included with COVID patients- they didn't do a test to see if i had covid-which I found remarkable! So, with my limited medical knowledge,I can only think of this as an explanation: I came off ramipril about 4 weeks ago,after being on it for around 2 years,due to the issue with ACE2.Coming off suddenly, although my BP hadn't shot up( ~132/80 regularly) probably been causing it.

.

 

"By the way, I forgot to mention that the other great reason for adhering to a juice diet when faced with a respiratory illness is that it thwarts mucus production. Mucus is one of the biggest threats because it can clog our airways.

There are those who will point out, quite correctly, that juice diets are inherently high in sugar, which is particularly undesirable if sugar molecules are required for viral invasion. However, they're also very low in protein, which means -- courtesy of mTOR --- that your propensity to experience a deadly cytokine storm will be reduced. Food (or drink) for thought. A little protein in the form of mushrooms or mushroom powder, for one, should be fine and not significantly contribute to mucus. Conversely, milk would be about the most pro-mucus food I can think of."

 

I presume that would include my home made yoghurt?

 

Yeah, yoghurt is mucus producer, for sure. But for that matter, if you're taking it daily and not getting lots of production, that would push me even further away from the respiratory infection diagnosis. In your condition, though, I would eliminate all mucus sources until I knew what I was dealing with.

 

If your xray is clear at this point, then at the very least I don't think you're going Italian. It's been way too long for such an aggressive strain to have done nothing to your lungs or temperature, while all the while having breathing issues.

 

If your "bloods were normal" that's good. COVID19 should elevate ESR and kill off lymphocytes. They could still be in the normal range, but a comparison should reveal the change, if you have previous results.

 

They probably didn't test you because they're really short on kits. Sad situation indeed.

 

It can't be conventional pneumonia, either, because that would be obvious on xray.

 

I have no expertise on ramipril, sorry. I guess you can restart it and see what happens, assuming you understand the risks, if any, of doing so. In any case, I would encourage you to follow up with a cardiologist as soon as it's safe to do so, and you have proper PPE (ideally N95) to take with you to your appointment. And definitely don't panic. There are tons of heart function interventions available for various issues.

 

Heart problems are quite easily diagnosed these days with ultrasound, or occasionally CT or nuclear imaging. Ultrasound is where I would start, certainly before exposing myself to radiation for what might prove to be a null diagnosis anyway. Might just be a fixable valve issue. Gotta see some imaging first.

They just had a doctor on the news talking about it and they said that there has been so severe of

blood clotting in some situations that arms or legs had to be amputated from the damage of the clot.

 

So what type of supplements or herbs would be good to prevent or treat something like this?

 

OMG awful!

 

I'll defer to Dorian's post on this.
 

Even without titrating to astronomical bowel-tolerances, but regular high intakes (6-18 g/d), I would always avoid pill and capsules due to the high accompanying intake of who-knows-what binders and fillers. Which in the long term at such amounts can't be healthy.
 
However, bowel tolerance is very individual, in very few healthy individual individuals it might be as low as 4 grams per day: http://www.doctoryou.../titration.html, where it wouldn't matter as much.

  TABLE I - USUAL BOWEL TOLERANCE DOSES 
 
                               GRAMS ASCORBIC ACID      NUMBER OF DOSES      
CONDITION                  PER 24 HOURS           PER 24 HOURS 
normal                       4 -  15              4 -  6 
mild cold                   30 -  60              6 - 10 
severe cold                 60 - 100+             8 - 15 
influenza                  100 - 150              8 - 20 
ECHO, coxsackievirus       100 - 150              8 - 20 
mononucleosis              150 - 200+            12 - 25 
viral pneumonia            100 - 200+            12 - 25 
hay fever, asthma           15 -  50              4 -  8 
environmental and                                        
 food allergy              0.5 -  50              4 -  8 
burn, injury, surgery       25 - 150+             6 - 20 
anxiety, exercise and                                    
 other mild stresses        15 -  25              4 -  6 
cancer                      15 - 100              4 - 15 
ankylosing spondylitis      15 - 100              4 - 15 
Reiter's syndrome           15 -  60              4 - 10 
acute anterior uveitis      30 - 100              4 - 15 
rheumatoid arthritis        15 - 100              4 - 15 
bacterial infections        30 - 200+            10 - 25 
infectious hepatitis        30 - 100              6 - 15 
candidiasis                 15 - 200+             6 - 25

Plain ascorbic acid is just more straight forward in raising ascorbate levels and reaping effects. With difficulty in tolerating its acidity, sodium ascorbate has been successfully used for titrating to bowel tolerance just as well. Reaching high and short peaks of plasma levels (via AA), or accumulating it via more slower release and gradually reached levels (via SA), both do reach bowel-tolerance in the end.

 

However, with mineral ascorbates one always has to seriously consider the mineral content one is ingesting. https://lpi.oregonst...plemental-forms With 200g SA one would ingest about 22g of sodium, not too far off from past times without refrigeration, and many foods conserved with salt. With 200 calcium ascorbate and about 20g of calcium, definitely an unhealthy overdose by any comparison!

 

However, the middle way for avoiding some of the acidity would be to add just less sodium bicarbonate. And not up to half the weight of AA, where the solution would become pH neutral and exclusive sodium ascorbate.

 

Taking some as sodium ascorbate, or even liposomal, does in my experience both raise bowel-tolerance a bid further. And therefore could give even more advantage, by getting even more ascorbate into the system. And with that more freed up to mop up the damage.

 

Unless as you said you're one of those people who can only tolerate 4g (in which case, what's the point anyway), I think you would get dangerous levels of fillers and sodium. I guess we should all stock some pure ascorbic acid powder while it's still available.

 

[Gal220]

Serrapeptase + Natto is marketed as mucus thinner, but also has the advantage of destoying blood clots.  Doctors Best has good product on Amazon.

 

 

Website thehealthbeat.com did a write up on Vit C - https://thehealthbea...itamin-for-you/

 

This C salts product , used by Linus Pauling,  is what I would go with for high dosing

 

https://www.amazon.c...=ogi&th=1&psc=1

[resveratrol_guy]

Why would you want low protein? 

 

Studies show that protein (ie whey) is an immune modulator that actually helps to control cytokine storms and helps to reduce IL6. 

So if your low on protein that doesn't seem to be helpful.

 

 

 

Traditional antiviral mechanisms of milk proteins:

 

"The life cycle of a virus comprises several phases such as binding to the host cell surface,

entry or fusion, replication of the viral genome, viral protein synthesis, virus progeny assembly

and release. All these steps may be targeted by antiviral agents of milk derived proteins."

 

Binding to structural virus proteins prevent virus host cell interaction:

 

"Enveloped viruses, meaning the viral capsid is coated with a lipid membrane known as the viral

envelop, infect host cells via the interaction between envelop proteins and cellular receptors.

Many of the antiviral milk proteins can bind to structural proteins of the virion in order to prevent

binding of the virus to the target cell and subsequently inhibit entry of the viral genome into the host cell."

 

Milk protein as an immune modulator:

 

"There is a great quantity of milk protein properties that can lead to immune regulation, involving in both up

and down regulation of the immune system. Milk proteins function as antiviral and immune regulatory factors

by regulating the innate immune response both through up-regulation to enhance killing of viruses, and

down-regulation to reduce detrimental conditions such as sepsis. Additionally, the whey protein lactoferrin,

and pepsin derived peptide fragments have been studied extensively for antiviral properties, direct

interaction with the virus particle, interaction with cellular receptors on the target cells, and complex antiviral

mechanisms involving stimulation and regulation of the immune system"

 

It appears that whey protein not only helps to inhibit the virus from taking hold but also helps to regulate the

immune system so if you need it up regulated or down regulated.  I have read that elderly people usually are

deficient in protein compared to younger people.  Maybe that is one reason this is hitting the elderly harder

compared to the younger people.

 

 

Sources:

https://insights.ovi...on/690/00003246

NewburgD. S.1999Human milk glycoconjugates that inhibit pathogens,Curr Med Chem 6117127

Antirotaviral activity of milk proteins: lactoferrin prevents rotavirus infection in the enterocyte-like cell line HT-29,Med Microbiol Immunol

T. J.2001Lactoferrin and cyclic lactoferricin inhibit the entry of human cytomegalovirus into human fibroblasts,Antiviral Res 51141149

K.TomitaM.1992Identification of the bactericidal domain of lactoferrin, Biochim Biophys Acta 1121130136

 

I don't doubt that there are some protein sources which can aid the immune system. Mucus is also protective, clearly. The problem comes when the volume is large enough to impede the airway, particularly when the lungs have been otherwise compromised.

 

Whey never did give me much in the way of mucus, so I think you have a good point. Although I'm just paranoid of providing any kind of fuel for a cytokine storm, which might occur anyway if IL6 is suppressed during one time window, then protein is provided to the immune system during another. I feel safer with mushrooms, personally, but maybe that's just me.

[BlueCloud]

HCQ is a real rollercoaster...

 

Dr Raoult publishes a new study , 1061 patients treated with HCQ + Azythromicyn. Says the lethality is 0.75%

 

He also rebutes the negative study by Magagnoli on U.S veterans in the following article : https://www.mediterr...o-Magagnoli.pdf

 

Also a new negative study by 4 french hospitals : No evidence of clinical efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in patients hospitalised for COVID-19 infection and requiring oxygen: results of a study using routinely collected data to emulate a target trial

Edited by BlueCloud, 24 April 2020 - 05:13 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

HCQ is a real rollercoaster...

 

Dr Raoult publishes a new study , 1061 patients treated with HCQ + Azythromicyn. Says the lethality is 0.75%

 

He also rebutes the negative study by Magagnoli on U.S veterans in the following article : https://www.mediterr...o-Magagnoli.pdf

 

Also a new negative study by 4 french hospitals : No evidence of clinical efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in patients hospitalised for COVID-19 infection and requiring oxygen: results of a study using routinely collected data to emulate a target trial

 

Yep. Works great if given early. Fails miserably if given late. It's not a salvage med, it's a prophylactic against progression to end stage disease.

 

Doctors treating patients early with HCQ outside of hospitals are reporting good results and their patients are shouting its praises from the rooftops.  Clinical trials inside hospitals in patients with advanced disease are not going well.  Wonder how long it will take them to figure out early outpatient treatment is what really works.

 

http://www.treatearly.org/

Edited by Dorian Grey, 24 April 2020 - 05:28 PM.

[Mr Spock]

Yeah, yoghurt is mucus producer, for sure. But for that matter, if you're taking it daily and not getting lots of production, that would push me even further away from the respiratory infection diagnosis. In your condition, though, I would eliminate all mucus sources until I knew what I was dealing with.

 

If your xray is clear at this point, then at the very least I don't think you're going Italian. It's been way too long for such an aggressive strain to have done nothing to your lungs or temperature, while all the while having breathing issues.

 

If your "bloods were normal" that's good. COVID19 should elevate ESR and kill off lymphocytes. They could still be in the normal range, but a comparison should reveal the change, if you have previous results.

 

They probably didn't test you because they're really short on kits. Sad situation indeed.

 

It can't be conventional pneumonia, either, because that would be obvious on xray.

 

I have no expertise on ramipril, sorry. I guess you can restart it and see what happens, assuming you understand the risks, if any, of doing so. In any case, I would encourage you to follow up with a cardiologist as soon as it's safe to do so, and you have proper PPE (ideally N95) to take with you to your appointment. And definitely don't panic. There are tons of heart function interventions available for various issues.

 

Heart problems are quite easily diagnosed these days with ultrasound, or occasionally CT or nuclear imaging. Ultrasound is where I would start, certainly before exposing myself to radiation for what might prove to be a null diagnosis anyway. Might just be a fixable valve issue. Gotta see some imaging first.

 

Yes, regularly been consuming yoghurt until your post yesterday.

 

I re-started on Ramipril( 2.5mg X 2) in fact on weds 22nd- the breathlessness is much abated- so I'm assuming something heart related- as you were saying originally. I will of course have to wait until they're prepared to restart testing. 

 

 

[Dorian Grey]

The FDA will always caution against anything that they aren't the gatekeeper of.

 

This is effectively a BAN.  When I got prostatitis a couple years back & wanted to try fosfomycin rather than Cipro or Sulfa (yuck!), my doc told me he could prescribe it, but ONLY within the guidelines of his medical group's FDA based formulary which was one dose every three days.  The European protocol called for daily dosing for 30 days.  I had to get additional doses from Mexico.  

 

I'm betting HCQ will no longer be available to anyone on an outpatient basis unless you've got an independent doc (not part of a group) who is willing to help. 

Edited by Dorian Grey, 24 April 2020 - 05:48 PM.

[pamojja]

This C salts product , used by Linus Pauling,  is what I would go with for high dosing

 

https://www.amazon.c...=ogi&th=1&psc=1

 

Linus Pauling used up to 18 gram of ascorbic acid with a tiny bid of sodium bicarbonate mixed in. He definitely didn't used such a overpriced mix of mineral ascorbates. What a rediculous claim!

[Dorian Grey]

This new evidence shows nicotine might prevent smokers from catching coronavirus

 

https://www.marketwa...4?mod=home-page

 

"The study suggests nicotine potentially blocks the virus from attaching to cells"

 

Caffeine & Nicotine are kissin' cousins.  Wonder if coffee might also be helpful.  

[BlueCloud]

This new evidence shows nicotine might prevent smokers from catching coronavirus

 

https://www.marketwa...4?mod=home-page

 

"The study suggests nicotine potentially blocks the virus from attaching to cells"

 

Caffeine & Nicotine are kissin' cousins.  Wonder if coffee might also be helpful.  

 

Funny thing : following that study and its popularity, french health authorities are limiting the sales of nicotine patches in pharmacies to the equivalent of 1 month of usage per buyer from today until end of lockdown ( 11th May) for fear of people rushing in stores and maybe creating a shortage like toilet paper.. 

[Gal220]

Linus Pauling used up to 18 gram of ascorbic acid with a tiny bid of sodium bicarbonate mixed in. He definitely didn't used such a overpriced mix of mineral ascorbates. What a rediculous claim!

 

They claim it was both formulated and recommended by him and others on their amazon page.

 

"Formulated And Recommended By The Greatest Vitamin C Minds. (Oscar Falconi, Irwin Stone, Linus Pauling)"

 

 

C-Salts is also recommended by Andrew Weil who has a COVID page to go along with the excellent Arizona State youtube video(see 3rd post on page 40 above)

https://www.drweil.c...ut-coronavirus/

 

One of the most interesting things is he post their CoVid recommendations but ALSO what not to take if you become ill

• Elderberry (Sambucus nigra)
• Isolated polysaccharide extracts from medicinal mushrooms
• Echinacea angustifolia and E. purpurea
• Larch arabinogalactan
• Vitamin D

[Gal220]

Speaking of Linus Pauling, his institute has some excellent general immunity pages

 

https://lpi.oregonst...munity-in-brief

https://lpi.oregonst...isease/immunity

 

They cover - Omegas, obesity, malnutrition, copper, Vitamins A, B, C, D, E, iron, selenium, and probiotics

[joelcairo]

Yep. Works great if given early. Fails miserably if given late. It's not a salvage med, it's a prophylactic against progression to end stage disease.

 

Doctors treating patients early with HCQ outside of hospitals are reporting good results and their patients are shouting its praises from the rooftops.  Clinical trials inside hospitals in patients with advanced disease are not going well.  Wonder how long it will take them to figure out early outpatient treatment is what really works.

 

http://www.treatearly.org/

 

Where is the evidence that it works great?

 

Raoult's recent study merely showed results roughly in line with the estimated mortality of the disease when patients who do not show serious symptoms are included.

[Gal220]

Where is the evidence that it works great?

 

Raoult's recent study merely showed results roughly in line with the estimated mortality of the disease when patients who do not show serious symptoms are included.

 

See video in the 3rd post of this page

[Dorian Grey]

Where is the evidence that it works great?

 

Raoult's recent study merely showed results roughly in line with the estimated mortality of the disease when patients who do not show serious symptoms are included.

 

A global sermo poll of over 6000 doctors actually treating COVID in the field indicated they felt chloroquine meds (CQ & HCQ) were working best for their patients.

 

Chris Martenson's recent youtube (link near bottom of previous page) said Costa Rica had nearly halved their case fatality rate since starting widespread early use of HCQ.  

 

Doctors treating patients early with HCQ outside of hospitals are reporting good results and their patients are shouting its praises from the rooftops.

 

Don't know how many anecdotes it takes to form a consensus without proper peer reviewed studies, but I'm a fan.

[Gal220]

For those wishing to research the Quercetin angle(zinc ionophore) mentioned in the Arizona State video, here is a summary of articles

 

https://www.frs.com/...quercetins.html

 

 

Particularly interesting is DARPA's(agency of the DOD) funding of a double blind placebo study to ward off the flu in exhausted soldiers.

https://www.newswise...ressed-athletes

 

"In the study, 20 cyclists ingested 1,000 milligrams of quercetin a day for five weeks. A placebo was given to 20 other cyclists. Three weeks into the study, the athletes rode a bicycle three hours a day for three days to the point of exhaustion."

 

"While 45 percent of the cyclists who took a placebo reported illness following the extreme exercise, only 5 percent of the quercetin group reported any days of sickness. There was no evidence of any adverse side effects."

 

 

Edit, wrong link.

Edited by Gal220, 24 April 2020 - 08:29 PM.

[bladedmind]

A Call to Arms! 

 

I'm volunteering with an organization ( http://www.treatearly.org/ ) trying to inform the public (and doctors) about mismanagement of clinical trials for Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ).  We've all seen independent doctors and their patients reporting remarkable success with HCQ in the field, while "official" clinical trials have of late turned largely negative.  It appears nearly all of the clinical trials are using HCQ in a "salvage" role in hospitalized patients with advanced disease, rather than initializing therapy early where antivirals tend to work best.  

....

Hydroxychloroquine expert suggests doctors should halt prescriptions for COVID-19 patients after 'concerning' study

....

 

Do you wonder why there is so much propaganda purporting to debunk promising therapeutics for COVID-19?   Here’s one big reason why.  https://www.scientif...thicists-worry/

 

Medical “ethicists” advocate keeping the public and clinicians ignorant so that they will be more willing to donate bodies to randomized controlled trials.  

 

It’s going to be hard to invite patients to go into a trial where they have a 50 percent chance of getting a placebo if most physicians, and most patients, believe [the drug is] already proved to be effective.

 

 

Purity of research should always override clinicians’ therapeutic duties: 

 

I don’t have a problem with compassionate use, provided that it is not interfering with the efficient conduct of clinical research. My concern is when compassionate use begins to siphon patients who might otherwise be eligible for clinical trials away from those clinical trials. 

 

These "ethicists" are using a crude utilitarian ethic.   Utilitarianism has long been mostly passé in philosophical ethics because it fails to recognize and respect the separateness of persons.  In other words, it makes sense within an individual person to incur a cost now for a larger benefit later.  But that doesn't extend to a society sacrificing an innocent now for the benefit of others later.  The latter, to go through, would have to publicly justified to the innocent who would have to give meaningful consent to sacrificing their life to science.  These "ethicists" want to suppress crucial information in order to dupe people into consent that they would not have given if they had access to full information. 

[Mind]

Yep. Works great if given early. Fails miserably if given late. It's not a salvage med, it's a prophylactic against progression to end stage disease.

 

Doctors treating patients early with HCQ outside of hospitals are reporting good results and their patients are shouting its praises from the rooftops.  Clinical trials inside hospitals in patients with advanced disease are not going well.  Wonder how long it will take them to figure out early outpatient treatment is what really works.

 

http://www.treatearly.org/

 

The study on veterans was mostly patients who were elderly and already on ventilators. I doubt there is anything that would improve there chances.

 

On thing is becoming clear, hydroxychloroquine alone and administered to severe covid cases does not help, but most people here would have said that from the beginning.

[Dorian Grey]

Oh my God you've got to see this: https://www.medscape...D=2358882&faf=1

 

Medscape: FDA Warns Against Hydroxychloroquine Use Outside of Hospital

 

Look at the comments!  These are all medical professionals, & the vast majority (90%+) are astonished with the FDA ban on outpatient HCQ.  

 

This is like the frickin Twilight Zone!  Not only is there no valid rationale to forbid a GP to prescribe 5-10 days of HCQ; but they are forcing trials to avoid looking at the most logical use and restricting them to pointless exercises in futility.   

 

Cases & fatality rates are plateauing but not declining all that much even after almost 40 days lockdown, which should have produced a more dramatic decline (average 5-14 day incubation and 14-21 day illness).  We should be at least half way down to baseline by now. 

 

Second waves are forming in countries that have tried to re-open; civilization is on the brink of disaster, and medical/political bureaucrats are ruining what might be our only hope of pulling out of this nose dive.  

 

I'm going to print this story out, with comments & open a museum of the medically bizarre.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 25 April 2020 - 01:43 AM.

[lancebr]

First trial for potential Covid-19 drug shows it has no effect

 

WHO draft put online states Remdesivir does not benefit severe coronavirus patients

 

https://www.theguard...d-in-full-trial

Edited by lancebr, 25 April 2020 - 04:25 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

Loved Chris Martenson's latest youtube on HCQ.  He dug up a "pre-COVID" WHO monograph on "the cardiotoxicity of antimalarials". Their bottom line from the monster 49 page document?

 

“Despite hundreds of millions of doses administered in the treatment of malaria, there have been no reports of sudden unexplained death associated with quinine, chloroquine or amodiaquine, although each drug causes QT/QTc interval prolongation.”

 

That's right...  Absolute ZERO!  Don't know why HCQ wasn't included in their conclusion, but chloroquine is the older more toxic form of the drug, so I don't expect HCQ is any more dangerous.  

 

Now, just for fun; google: Cardiac risk from hydroxychloroquine and have a look at all the hysterical "new" literature on the dreadful dangers of HCQ.  To be fair, I expect adding azithromycin into the mix might complicate relative risk for a few old gomers in a VA hospital, but for most of us who'd rather not end up in-a-tent / on-a-vent, the risk/reward ratio might be pretty good.  

 

We live in interesting times!  

[resveratrol_guy]

I re-started on Ramipril( 2.5mg X 2) in fact on weds 22nd- the breathlessness is much abated- so I'm assuming something heart related- as you were saying originally. I will of course have to wait until they're prepared to restart testing.

 

Not bad, considering that I'm a quack doctor, huh? I gotta admit, I've obtained so much more benefit from reading this forum than I ever got from any clinician, insofar as staying alive is concerned.

 

Sounds compelling. In the meantime, do everything possible to avoid cardiovascular stress. Meditation is a great place to start. Definitely avoid processed foods, other than olive oil and, only if you're on a low-carb diet, butter and coconut oil. (To be fair, 90% dark chocolate is also a processed food which is good for the heart, but I don't recommend it in your case because it will temporarily increase blood pressure.) For sure, vegetable oils, seed oils, and peanut oil are your enemies. And don't even think about grains, whole or not. (OK I won't freak out if you have a bowl of rice or oats once a week. And yes, I'm a vegetarian who actually admits that grains are bad.) Limit sodium to the extent you feel that you need it. (Bear in mind that "low sodium diet" is a meaningless term because it depends on how much one loses in sweat, as well as one's potassium intake.)

 

Beets, onions, and beans are foods to keep the vessels dilated, unless you're low-carb, in which case, just the onions will have to do.

 

Anyways, now that we're essentially satisfied that you're not a COVID19 patient, it's probably time to take this offline. Feel free to create a thread for your particular case in the appropriate subforum, if you want to continue consulting with people. You can also PM me, but I've been offline for months on occasion.

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 25 April 2020 - 08:39 AM.

[pamojja]

This is like the frickin Twilight Zone!  Not only is there no valid rationale to forbid a GP to prescribe 5-10 days of HCQ; but they are forcing trials to avoid looking at the most logical use and restricting them to pointless exercises in futility.

 

I wished sometimes not to be so spot on. When others were excited about Trump recommending chloroquine, I commented it would be to his downfall. In that the industry would put all their means into proving him wrong, and for finally bringing him down.

Edited by pamojja, 25 April 2020 - 08:53 AM.

[pamojja]

We live in interesting times! 

 

This video sums it up. The definite word on covid-19:

 

 

[BlueCloud]

I wished sometimes not to be so spot on. When others were excited about Trump recommending chloroquine, I commented it would be to his downfall. In that the industry would put all their means into proving him wrong, and for finally bringing him down.

the lack of excitement about choloroquine was already there in the rest of the world before Trump started recommending it in the US. Sweden for example has completely stopped using it in hospitals a while back. France’s health authorities weren’t too excited about it either and still aren’t  , despite Dr Raoult whose studies popularized HCQ,  being french and having nearly a popstar status there. The Chinese aren’t exactly crazy about it,  Etc... 

 

Although it’s seems nearly banned now in the US from what I understand, it is not in the rest of the world, they are just not excited about it,  you would need to insist if you want it prescribed, although in some places it is still a first line of treatment ( hospitals in the the south of France for example, where Raoult is based )

Edited by BlueCloud, 25 April 2020 - 09:25 AM.

[Hip]

These "ethicists" are using a crude utilitarian ethic.   Utilitarianism has long been mostly passé in philosophical ethics because it fails to recognize and respect the separateness of persons.  In other words, it makes sense within an individual person to incur a cost now for a larger benefit later.  But that doesn't extend to a society sacrificing an innocent now for the benefit of others later. 

 

Sounds like you are arguing on behalf of the me, me, me millennial generation, a stereotype whose focus is solely on the individual self, and on any gains the individual can obtain just for themselves.

 

Of course there are many millennials who have a wider consciousness than just the self, and are focused and concerned for society as a whole, so I would not want to characterize a whole generation as selfish. The doctors and nurses who are risking their lives to treat coronavirus patients is one example. 

 

However, we all aware of that me, me, me stereotype. What you say may be true for a me, me, me individual, but the consciousness of many higher motivated individuals extends far beyond themselves: to their family, their friends, their society and country, to their cultural values, and to humanity as a whole.

 

 

 

By the way, if anyone wants to shift their self-focused me, me, me consciousness into a wider transcendental consciousness which focuses on all humanity, a powerful means to do this is religious pure water fasting, as the ancient prophets used to do (typically in the desert). I've tried pure water fasting myself, and it's incredible the way it rapidly alters consciousness.

 

We are not talking juice fasting, where you are still consuming some calories each day, but pure water fasting, where you consume nothing but water for several days or weeks. If you do this, it will rapidly melt any self-centered ego, and change your mind's field of consciousness to focus to a much larger and greater picture than just your individual self. If you ever try water fasting, you will understand why the ancient mystics found it such a powerful technique for transcending their own limited self-focused consciousness.

 

Some of the ancient prophets were really authentic in their desire to help humanity (unlike many evangelical types today, who are making money from religion).

 

If you are not working because of the pandemic, it's a perfect time to try pure water fasting. (It's best to start slowly with juice fasting first, and then after about a week on that, switch to pure water fasting).

Edited by Hip, 25 April 2020 - 01:46 PM.

[xEva]

strokes in young people!

There have been already posts about this, but this piece in wapo is alarming. Some excerpts:

 

 

Young and middle-aged people, barely sick with covid-19, are dying from strokes

 

Doctors sound alarm about patients in their 30s and 40s left debilitated or dead. Some didn’t even know they were infected.

 

The analyses suggest coronavirus patients are mostly experiencing the deadliest type of stroke. Known as large vessel occlusions, or LVOs, they can obliterate large parts of the brain responsible for movement, speech and decision-making in one blow because they are in the main blood-supplying arteries.

Many researchers suspect strokes in covid-19 patients may be a direct consequence of blood problems that are producing clots all over some people’s bodies.

 

“We are used to thinking of 60 as a young patient when it comes to large vessel occlusions,” Raz said of the deadliest strokes. “We have never seen so many in their 50s, 40s and late 30s.”

Raz wondered whether they are seeing more young patients because they are more resistant than the elderly to the respiratory distress caused by covid-19: “So they survive the lung side, and in time develop other issues.”

 

Brain clots usually appear in the arteries, which carry blood away from the heart. But in covid-19 patients, he is also seeing them in the veins, which carry blood in the opposite direction and are trickier to treat. Some patients are also developing more than one large clot in their heads, which is highly unusual.

 

“We’ll be treating a blood vessel and it will go fine, but then the patient will have a major stroke” because of a clot in another part of the brain, he said.

 

The covid-19 patients treated for stroke at Mount Sinai were younger and mostly without risk factors. On average, the covid-19 stroke patients were 15 years younger than stroke patients without the virus. “These are people among the least likely statistically to have a stroke,” Mocco said.