3083 replies to this topic

[shp5]

lets hope things are gonna get moving

 

WHO-sponsored review of ivermectin trials indicates 83% reduction in covid mortality.

https://swprs.org/wh...ectiveness/?amp

Edited by shp5, 14 January 2021 - 08:21 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

lets hope things are gonna get moving

 

WHO-sponsored review of ivermectin trials indicates 83% reduction in covid mortality.

https://swprs.org/wh...ectiveness/?amp

 

Looks like the fate of the Western World may hang in Fauci's hands.   Biden isn't going to listen to anyone but him.  

 

Will he give a thumbs-up to actually treating patients before they go critical?  Or do we go down in flames?  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 14 January 2021 - 08:37 AM.

[shp5]

the way I see it (here in europe), nothing is gonna happen without a big trial like RECOVERY or SOLIDARITY showing results. docs don't go for the pragmatic risk/reward/cost ratio (like for vit D), that's how they worked up until the 1980s/1990s. now they just want their big RCTs.

 

I am not a fan of all the politically loaded talk, there's places for that, then again social media has turned most political discussions to shit in the last decade, and that polarization weakens us.

[Gal220]

Maybe it wasn't clear before. This reduced viral load for SARS-CoV-2 in vitro by 70%. No one is interested?

 

Would you take this over Ivermectin?  Not sure which would be the safer of the two.  Need to find an anti-viral you can take regularly since many people do not show symptoms till late stages.

 

Personally I am sold on Thomas Levy's H202 treatment, nebulize every 2-3 days.  There are already many people who have been doing it long term.  If I did show symptoms beyond the H202 therapy, I would be looking at IVM.

[Gal220]

Looks like the fate of the Western World may hang in Fauci's hands.   Biden isn't going to listen to anyone but him.  

 

Will he give a thumbs-up to actually treating patients before they go critical?  Or do we go down in flames?  

 

If enough countries start showing success with IVM, I dont think anything will stop it.  At some point everyone will realize the Emperor has no cloths... Sad its come to that.

[Dorian Grey]

the way I see it (here in europe), nothing is gonna happen without a big trial like RECOVERY or SOLIDARITY showing results. docs don't go for the pragmatic risk/reward/cost ratio (like for vit D), that's how they worked up until the 1980s/1990s. now they just want their big RCTs.

 

I am not a fan of all the politically loaded talk, there's places for that, then again social media has turned most political discussions to shit in the last decade, and that polarization weakens us.

 

I'm concerned there may be a point of no return regarding the acceptance of outpatient therapeutics.  Can you imagine what would happen if Fauci up and said one fine day "on reviewing a meta-analysis of the latest data on HCQ...

 

https://hcqmeta.com/

 

...  It appears it may be a good early/outpatient therapeutic after all".. This after over a million and a half global deaths?  Ain't gonna happen.  

 

A large Gates/Wellcome/WHO RCT for ivermectin would take how many months to set up, complete, peer reviewed & published?  Another million deaths & someone is going to step up and say "well that ivermectin some docs have been shouting about since last Fall looks like it works pretty good"?  

 

The political pandemic boffins have painted themselves into a corner they now have no way out of.  I believe it will remain every man for himself until they manage to get a few billion vaccinated.  What will be left of our economies by then remains to be seen.  We live in interesting times!  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 14 January 2021 - 05:01 PM.

[geo12the]

I'm concerned there may be a point of no return regarding the acceptance of outpatient therapeutics.  Can you imagine what would happen if Fauci up and said one fine day "on reviewing a meta-analysis of the latest data on HCQ...

 

https://hcqmeta.com/

 

...  It appears it may be a good early/outpatient therapeutic after all".. This after over a million and a half global deaths?  Ain't gonna happen.  

 

A large Gates/Wellcome/WHO RCT for ivermectin would take how many months to set up, complete, peer reviewed & published?  Another million deaths & someone is going to step up and say "well that ivermectin some docs have been shouting about since last Fall looks like it works pretty good"?  

 

The political pandemic boffins have painted themselves into a corner they now have no way out of.  I believe it will remain every man for himself until they manage to get a few billion vaccinated.  What will be left of our economies by then remains to be seen.  We live in interesting times!  

 

Reading the posts here one might think EVERTHING cures COVID. If only! I am more hopeful for the future. You are blaming the boffins but I think the blame has to go all the way to the top. I am hopeful the new administration will put SCIENCE and common sense first, not the whims of a madman.

[Gal220]

Reading the posts here one might think EVERTHING cures COVID. If only! I am more hopeful for the future. You are blaming the boffins but I think the blame has to go all the way to the top. I am hopeful the new administration will put SCIENCE and common sense first, not the whims of a madman.

Trump was desperate to get rid of Covid, anything that would have stopped it, he was all for it.  Other countries are leading the way on IVM b/c of Trump?  If you mean by SCIENCE, scoring more money for Pharma at the expense of the American people, Fauci is good at that.

[Gal220]

Looks like people at high risk to Covid are also high risk to the Vaccine, maybe we should have taken the anti-viral treatments more seriously instead of waiting for the Vaccine.  

Excuse the language here, Norway doesnt sugar coat this -

 

Norwegian Medicines Agency links 13 deaths to vaccine side effects. Those who died were frail and old

 

As a result, the FHI has updated the corona vaccination guide with new advice on the vaccination of frail elderly people.

 

“If you are very frail, you should probably not be vaccinated,” Steinar Madsen at the Norwegian Medicines Agency said at a webinar on corona vaccine for journalists on Thursday.

 

Maybe we will be forced to find out if H202, quercetin, hesperidin, ECGC, Honeysuckle extract etc work after all.

[lancebr]

This video has been popping up on the internet of a woman who supposedly had bad side effect to the vaccine:

 

 

Twitter has been removing it when people post it.

[Gal220]

Twitter has been removing it when people post it.

 

No doubt for our own good..,they know best, fact checked it for us.  There are alternatives, GAB numbers going through the roof.  FLCC should be posting there about IVM

[Dorian Grey]

Reading the posts here one might think EVERTHING cures COVID. If only! I am more hopeful for the future. You are blaming the boffins but I think the blame has to go all the way to the top. I am hopeful the new administration will put SCIENCE and common sense first, not the whims of a madman.

 

Big Pharm would very much like to develop a singular magic bullet for COVID, but until then we should be looking at doing the best we can on multiple fronts.  Yep, you may indeed need Vitamin-D, Zinc, an anticoagulant, and at least one pharmaceutical (HCQ or IVM) if you really wish to avoid morbidity.  Plenty of other minor players to ponder also.  That's what most of us are here for.  

 

Did you look at the link I posted?  https://hcqmeta.com/

 

How 'bout this one?  https://ivmmeta.com/

 

Dozens of trials (including many RCTs) on thousands of patients all around the world, done by doctors actually treating patients in the field.  Some truly impressive results, with risk from outpatient treatment next to nil.  Board certified pulmonologists testifying before the senate, begging them to ask their boffins in public health to consider the evidence.  

 

Fauci says...  NO!  We'll give you some remdesivir if you start turning blue.  

 

Dreadful mismanagement!  Wish Cancel-Culture could make this guy disappear, though he appears to be their superhero  for now.  Guess you got to give him credit for promoting vaccine acceptance, what with NO outpatient therapeutic after over a year of research.  Still not my idea of good medicine.  

[Dorian Grey]

NEWS FLASH: The NIH has Upgraded their Ivermectin Recommendation

 

https://www.covid19t...-on-ivermectin/

 

Jan 14, 2021: 

• The COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel (the Panel) has determined that currently there are insufficient data to recommend either for or against the use of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19. Results from adequately powered, well-designed, and well-conducted clinical trials are needed to provide more specific, evidence-based guidance on the role of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19.

--------------------

 

Believe it or not, this is an improvement over the old recommendation!  

 

https://www.covid19t...apy/ivermectin/

 

August 27, 2020: 

• The COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel recommends against the use of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19, except in a clinical trial (AIII).

------------------------

 

Don't know if this means our GPs might be able to prescribe this outpatient / off label or not.  It certainly no longer seem to be "forbidden fruit" (like HCQ).  

 

Baby Steps...  Baby Steps. 

 

There are supposed to be a couple of big ivermectin studies ripening in January, so perhaps this move was in anticipation of possible EUA approval when the new studies are published. 

 

I'll be hoisting a glass of gin & tonic to Fauci tonight. Cheers!  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 15 January 2021 - 04:22 AM.

[Mind]

Reading the posts here one might think EVERTHING cures COVID. If only! I am more hopeful for the future. You are blaming the boffins but I think the blame has to go all the way to the top. I am hopeful the new administration will put SCIENCE and common sense first, not the whims of a madman.

 

This is an extremely odd opinion. The Trump administration was interested in anything and everything (therapeutic-wise) that could stop the pandemic. The President was constantly talking about HQQ, remdesivir, vaccines, etc.... The Trump administration got vaccines approved in record time. On what planet was the Trump administration NOT trying to produce/promote therapeutics?

[Mind]

Live Forever Club guide to boost your immune system: https://liveforever....r-immune-system

 

Common-sense stuff that should have been (but was mostly not) promoted by health bureaucracies from the beginning.

[albedo]

Live Forever Club guide to boost your immune system: https://liveforever....r-immune-system

 

Common-sense stuff that should have been (but was mostly not) promoted by health bureaucracies from the beginning.

 

Thank you for sharing, good finding. I have a small issue with copper in the list but i guess it is minor in our context and in any case zinc is promoted just before!
 

[Gal220]

Thank you for sharing, good finding. I have a small issue with copper in the list but i guess it is minor in our context and in any case zinc is promoted just before!
 

Im not sure the ideal ratio, Jarrow uses 1mg of copper to 15mg of zinc.  I wouldnt take large amounts of zinc without some copper, something missing on several covid sites, including this next one. Similar to recommending Vitamin D but no Mg or k2.  Hate to give Fauci any credit(eek), but even he let slip 1-2 grams of Vitamin C.  If symptoms, 1 gram every 30 minutes(or more), just back off if loose stools.

 

Linus Pauling institute recommends basically the same nutrients in addition to omega 3s, but its a watered down version of this better article

Edited by Gal220, 15 January 2021 - 03:06 PM.

[Gal220]

This is an extremely odd opinion. The Trump administration was interested in anything and everything (therapeutic-wise) that could stop the pandemic. The President was constantly talking about HQQ, remdesivir, vaccines, etc.... The Trump administration got vaccines approved in record time. On what planet was the Trump administration NOT trying to produce/promote therapeutics?

No no no, orange man bad !  You didnt know he was in all our labs sabotaging everything?  Not only here, but in all other countries as well!

Edited by Gal220, 15 January 2021 - 02:42 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

It's clear to me that we are going to need non-vaccine therapeutics.  It seems like this vaccine may give some immunity for a year or two (we'll find out as time goes on). But let's say it's 2 years. As we have documented in other threads, vaccines tend to become less effective after repeated administration. This is not so much of an issue with influenza vaccines since the strain and the vaccine changes from year to year. That won't be the case with this vaccine.

 

The immune system starts to ignore foreign substances after repeated exposure. After all, that's the whole theory behind allergy immunotherapy i.e. "allergy shots". You keep exposing the immune system to something. After a time, assuming it doesn't kill you and the body starts to ignore that substance.

 

So, maybe after a dozen or so years this vaccine will give less and less immunity. If that is the case, you're absolutely going to want to have non-vaccine therapeutics on hand to treat the bad cases when the vaccine effectiveness starts to wane.

 

Fauci is by trade primarily an immunologist. So he has a history of focusing on vaccines as a response to any viral pandemic. In the 1980s and 90s he had control over a great deal of spending on the AIDS crisis and was strongly criticized by many in that field for focusing on a vaccine and ignoring anti-viral therapeutics. He spent hundreds of millions (perhaps more) on a vaccine that we still don't have while ignoring the therapeutics that today have extended the lives of HIV positive patients by decades.

 

So there is a bias from the top down for two things: 1.) Preferring vaccines over therapeutics. 2.) An institutional preference for new (on patent) drugs over older (off patent) drugs.

 

So it's no wonder things have unfolded in the covid pandemic the way they have.

 

 

 

[Heisok]

Using copper has also been on my mind. The liveforever club emphasized dietary sources for the substances suggested.

 

There are several members posting in this thread who have participated in threads about copper. The threads are well over a year old, and many years old for some.

 

Rather than posting back to some of those threads, I would please.like to know the current opinion that anybody has about copper.

 

To state the obvious, The world we supplement for has changed.

[geo12the]

The immune system starts to ignore foreign substances after repeated exposure. After all, that's the whole theory behind allergy immunotherapy i.e. "allergy shots". You keep exposing the immune system to something. After a time, assuming it doesn't kill you and the body starts to ignore that substance.

 

So, maybe after a dozen or so years this vaccine will give less and less immunity. If that is the case, you're absolutely going to want to have non-vaccine therapeutics on hand to treat the bad cases when the vaccine effectiveness starts to wane.

 

 

This article hypothesizes that it may become more like the common cold eventually:

Immunological characteristics govern the transition of COVID-19 to endemicity

1. View ORCID ProfileJennie S. Lavine1,*, 
2. View ORCID ProfileOttar N. Bjornstad2, 
3. View ORCID ProfileRustom Antia1

 See all authors and affiliations

Science  12 Jan 2021:
eabe6522
DOI: 10.1126/science.abe6522

Abstract

We are currently faced with the question of how the CoV-2 severity may change in the years ahead. Our analysis of immunological and epidemiological data on endemic human coronaviruses (HCoVs) shows that infection-blocking immunity wanes rapidly, but disease-reducing immunity is long-lived. Our model, incorporating these components of immunity, recapitulates both the current severity of CoV-2 and the benign nature of HCoVs, suggesting that once the endemic phase is reached and primary exposure is in childhood, CoV-2 may be no more virulent than the common cold. We predict a different outcome for an emergent coronavirus that causes severe disease in children. These results reinforce the importance of behavioral containment during pandemic vaccine rollout, while prompting us to evaluate scenarios for continuing vaccination in the endemic phase.

[geo12the]

No no no, orange man bad !  You didnt know he was in all our labs sabotaging everything?  Not only here, but in all other countries as well!

 

https://www.nature.c...br9jUksBg0gmpCc

NEWS FEATURE 

 UPDATE 07 OCTOBER 2020

How Trump damaged science — and why it could take decades to recover

The US president’s actions have exacerbated the pandemic that has killed more than 200,000 people in the United States, rolled back environmental and public-health regulations and undermined science and scientific institutions. Some of the harm could be permanent.

"Many experts blame Trump for the country’s failure to contain the outbreak, a charge also levelled by Olivia Troye, who was a member of the White House coronavirus task force. She said in September that the president repeatedly derailed efforts to contain the virus and save lives, focusing instead on his own political campaign...

 

His administration has undermined, suppressed and censored government scientists working to study the virus and reduce its harm. And his appointees have made political tools out of the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), ordering the agencies to put out inaccurate information, issue ill-advised health guidance, and tout unproven and potentially harmful treatments for COVID-19.

 

“This is not just ineptitude, it’s sabotage,” says Jeffrey Shaman, an epidemiologist at Columbia University in New York City, who has modelled the evolution of the pandemic and how earlier interventions might have saved lives in the United States. “He has sabotaged efforts to keep people safe.”"

[geo12the]

It's clear to me that we are going to need non-vaccine therapeutics. 

 

So there is a bias from the top down for two things: 1.) Preferring vaccines over therapeutics. 2.) An institutional preference for new (on patent) drugs over older (off patent) drugs.

 

So it's no wonder things have unfolded in the covid pandemic the way they have.

 

For the perspective of scientists:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC7801226/

 

"The reality that this is not an unrealistic doom scenario was proven by the current president of the US who has recently touted that hydroxychloroquine is an effective drug to treat Covid-19, referring to a paper on a pre-print site as the scientific proof for his claims. Now 6 months later, this very paper still only exists in pre-print. If we, as doctors, have to base our medical decisions on alternative and non-scrutinized “scientific facts,” we will become, gradually and unnoticed, a bunch of 2.0 quacks, because every medical treatment without good scientific data is no more than a medical experiment."

 

I agree that having non-vaccine therapeutics would be good. But I am afraid it's not as easy to find ones that work. At the end of the day all that matters is does it work? I follow Pubmed, not slated online sites that distort studies to conform to opinions. All of the recent articles I have read have said HCQ does not work. My brother, a pulmonologist in NY immersed in the pandemic, has zero reason to be biased against HCQ. He voted for Trump in 2016 and was initially very excited about HCQ. But after some time he told me it doesn't really work and that the best treatment he believes from what he has seen is a combination of steroids and remdesovir. Here is a recent review on HCQ:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/32885373/

 

I think the realty is that viruses are difficult to treat. There is no magic bullet. In an earlier comment here Echinacea was mentioned.  Echinacea of course has also been touted for another Coronavirus, the common cold. Has anyone here tried Echinacea when they get a cold? I have. Doesn't do anything.  Maybe Ivermectin will be the magic bullet. We will see. 

Edited by geo12the, 15 January 2021 - 05:08 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

 

https://www.nature.c...br9jUksBg0gmpCc

NEWS FEATURE 

 UPDATE 07 OCTOBER 2020

How Trump damaged science — and why it could take decades to recover

The US president’s actions have exacerbated the pandemic that has killed more than 200,000 people in the United States, rolled back environmental and public-health regulations and undermined science and scientific institutions. Some of the harm could be permanent.

"Many experts blame Trump for the country’s failure to contain the outbreak, a charge also levelled by Olivia Troye, who was a member of the White House coronavirus task force. She said in September that the president repeatedly derailed efforts to contain the virus and save lives, focusing instead on his own political campaign...

 

His administration has undermined, suppressed and censored government scientists working to study the virus and reduce its harm. And his appointees have made political tools out of the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), ordering the agencies to put out inaccurate information, issue ill-advised health guidance, and tout unproven and potentially harmful treatments for COVID-19.

 

“This is not just ineptitude, it’s sabotage,” says Jeffrey Shaman, an epidemiologist at Columbia University in New York City, who has modelled the evolution of the pandemic and how earlier interventions might have saved lives in the United States. “He has sabotaged efforts to keep people safe.”"

 

 

I question this narrative if for no other reason than the fact that the U.S. is very much in the same boat as Western Europe.  And last I checked, Trump was not in charge of the UK, France, Italy, Belgium, etc. etc.  Even Germany is playing catch up with her European neighbors and the US.

 

And the idea that a single leader could damage "science" permanently in the space of 10 - 11 months is frankly ludicrous and tends to betray the bias of the entire article.

 

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 15 January 2021 - 05:36 PM.

[Gal220]

There are supposed to be a couple of big ivermectin studies ripening in January, so perhaps this move was in anticipation of possible EUA approval when the new studies are published. 

 

Yes, lets not save any lives prematurely with this already approved drug.  Need that 100% proof, people might call us names..

Edited by Gal220, 15 January 2021 - 05:32 PM.

[geo12the]

I question this narrative if for no other reason than the fact that the U.S. is very much in the same boat as Western Europe.  And last I checked, Trump was not in charge of the UK, France, Italy, Belgium, etc. etc.  Even Germany is playing catch up with her European neighbors and the US.

 

And the idea that a single leader could damage "science" permanently in the space of 10 - 11 months is frankly ludicrous and tends to betray the bias of the entire article.

 

Yes things are bad all over. But the US has been the leader of the world in science  and research. We SHOULD be in a better position. This was published in Nature, one of the most prestigious science journals.  Whatever you political affiliation, it brings up valid real points that can not be easily waved away and excused.  I believe science and put my faith in the science nerds, not Stable genius and his band off Village Sheeple. 

[Gal220]

Yes things are bad all over. But the US has been the leader of the world in science  and research. We SHOULD be in a better position. This was published in Nature, one of the most prestigious science journals.  Whatever you political affiliation, it brings up valid real points that can not be easily waved away and excused.  I believe science and put my faith in the science nerds, not Stable genius and his band off Village Sheeple. 

So it was Trump telling the CDC to stop spreading common sense immunity info like Vitamin D, C, zinc, and selenium...I agree we should be in a better position, but not pointing the finger at the real culprits is whats going to set us back years.   The NIH could have chosen to green light IVM a long time ago, especially for high risk, it was a willful decision solely on them.

[Daniel Cooper]

Yes things are bad all over. But the US has been the leader of the world in science  and research. We SHOULD be in a better position. This was published in Nature, one of the most prestigious science journals.  Whatever you political affiliation, it brings up valid real points that can not be easily waved away and excused.  I believe science and put my faith in the science nerds, not Stable genius and his band off Village Sheeple. 

 

That was published in Nature, but this is not a per reviewed journal article. It is an opinion piece that could have appeared on the editorial page of any media outlet.

 

Also, let's not pretend that scientists are a priestly order of people without biases and prejudices. They're human just like the rest of us.  And there is a long history of politics invading a community that is supposedly driven purely by a dispassionate consideration of the facts. At least that's the theory. But as is common, theory and practice are somewhat divergent.

[geo12the]

So it was Trump telling the CDC to stop spreading common sense immunity info like Vitamin D, C, zinc, and selenium...I agree we should be in a better position, but not pointing the finger at the real culprits is whats going to set us back years.   The NIH could have chosen to green light IVM a long time ago, especially for high risk, it was a willful decision solely on them.

 

I DO think the CDC should formally recommend Vitamin D. Fauci has said he takes vitamin D and recommends it. Here is what he said: "If you're deficient in vitamin D, that does have an impact on your susceptibility to infection,” said Dr. Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. “I would not mind recommending, and I do it myself, taking vitamin D supplements.” But that's not all: Dr. Fauci also recommended another vitamin. “The other vitamin that people take is vitamin C because it's a good antioxidant, so if people want to take a gram or so of vitamin C, that would be fine,” But, yes I wish there would be a more formal recommendation for that.  

 

The CDC and NIH were sidelined under Trump. This is well documented. You can read more in the original nature editorial and here: https://www.nature.c...586-020-03035-4

 

If a metric for success is pushing HCQ and his buddie's Oleandrin remedy and promoting auspicious scientists like the oh so wonderful Demon sperm lady  then yes Trump has been great. Let's blame all the nerds working hard to actually try and control this horrible thing. 

[geo12the]

That was published in Nature, but this is not a per reviewed journal article. It is an opinion piece that could have appeared on the editorial page of any media outlet.

 

Also, let's not pretend that scientists are a priestly order of people without biases and prejudices. They're human just like the rest of us.  And there is a long history of politics invading a community that is supposedly driven purely by a dispassionate consideration of the facts. At least that's the theory. But as is common, theory and practice are somewhat divergent.

 

I agree 100% that the science around the pandemic has been politicized. But who is responsible for that politicization? The same man who politicizing EVERYTHING and has divided the country.  With the new administration we have the chance to depoliticize science and focus on making things better. We will see in 6 months how things are. Will be interesting.