3083 replies to this topic

[Dorian Grey]

Double post.  Don't know how I managed to do this.  

 

Edited by Dorian Grey, 02 March 2021 - 09:42 PM.

[DanCG]

 but maybe someone can weigh in on more recent results.

This review article cites evidence that Vitamin D upregulates ACE2 (https://dx.doi.org/1...jid.2020.10.059). This pretty much settles the question of whether raising ACE2 is harmful or beneficial in protecting from Covid19. So, Dr. Sinclair took a guess that many would have agreed with at the time, but it turned out to be wrong. So, everybody take your resveratrol. Isn’t it interesting how so many of the proposed interventions for Covid19 coincide with interventions that have already been proposed to promote longevity and healthspan in general!

[Gal220]

Isn’t it interesting how so many of the proposed interventions for Covid19 coincide with interventions that have already been proposed to promote longevity and healthspan in general!

 

Main change in my regimen has been h202 / honeysuckle tea every other day and adding mushroom extracts( x3 natural killer cell activity).  I was already taking quercetin since it is  anti-cancer and helps with gout.

 

Another reason look at improving immunity and anti-virals instead of vaccine

A variant of the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 called P.1 seems to be able to reinfect people who already recovered from COVID-19, despite whatever protections their immune systems built up.

 

Interesting new Italian study on vaccine, produces half as many anti-bodies in obese, doesnt correlate to being ineffective.  

I would guess this is true in general, with or without the vaccine.  Immunity is compromised if overweight.

 

 

Edited by Gal220, 03 March 2021 - 02:25 PM.

[lancebr]

Main change in my regimen has been h202 / honeysuckle tea every other day and adding mushroom extracts( x3 natural killer cell activity).  I was already taking quercetin since it is  anti-cancer and helps with gout.

 

 

If I can ask...what brand of quercetin are you taking and how much?

 

I know there has been some statements made that is does not have good absorption in the body

so was wondering how it is best to get around that so it is better absorbed in the body.

 

Thanks

[Gal220]

If I can ask...what brand of quercetin are you taking and how much?

 

I take Drs Best quercetin/bromelain combo .  Supposedly bromelain also anti-viral.  2 caps, 1000 mg of quercetin on empty stomach.  Ok to take with vitamin C, they work together also.

[DanCG]

If I can ask...what brand of quercetin are you taking and how much?

 

 

 

 

I take Drs Best quercetin/bromelain combo .  Supposedly bromelain also anti-viral.  2 caps, 1000 mg of quercetin on empty stomach.  Ok to take with vitamin C, they work together also.

 

I also use that brand, but at only 500mg/day.

 

Many of the various effects of quercetin have been detected at 500mg/day according to this review: https://www.foundmyf...opics/quercetin

I have seen other examples not covered in that article. Since that dose seems to work despite the low bioavailability of quercetin, I am not overly concerned with absorption. It inhibits P-glycoprotein and since many other supplements also inhibit P-glycoprotein (resveratrol, milk thistle, piperine...) they would enhance each other’s absorption if taken together.

An abstract was published about a month ago stating that 500mg of quercetin, 500mg of vitamin C and 50mg of bromelain (QCB) daily in 2 divided doses was effective for Covid prophylaxis for healthcare workers. That abstract has since disappeared. Anyway, based on that I started using the Drs Best quercetin/bromelain combo at 500mg/day. I have been taking 500mg of vitamin C/day for the last 25+ years.

Edited by DanCG, 03 March 2021 - 08:13 PM.

[Rosanna]

I can’t imagine why Dr. Sinclair would say that. Does anyone have any more information on his reasoning or a link to the original quote? As Gal220 points out, there are good reasons to think that resveratrol would be beneficial for Covid. I did not stop taking resveratrol.

 

thanks, I've started back on it again today.  It was in an interview with him, I think he was doing quite a lot at the very start of the pandemic and he didn't say it was wrong to take it, he was saying that now (at the start of the pandemic) may not be a good time to start something new like that when our bodies will be under stress.  He may have changed his view since but I think he was exercising caution only, rather than it would be harmful.

[Hebbeh]

https://www.cidrap.u...-19-study-shows

 

 

Ivermectin doesn't speed recovery from mild COVID-19, study shows

Early administration of the antiparasitic drug ivermectin didn't significantly shorten time to clinical improvement in 400 adults mildly ill with COVID-19, a clinical trial today in JAMA finds.

 

Led by researchers from the Centro de Estudios en Infectologia Pediatrica in Cali, Colombia, the single-center, double-blind, randomized trial used random sampling of coronavirus-positive patients to identify inpatients and outpatients with mild COVID-19 within the first 7 days after symptom onset from Jul 15 to Nov 30, 2020.

 

Median time to symptom resolution was 10 days in the 200 patients randomly assigned to receive ivermectin daily for 5 days, compared with 12 days in 198 patients receiving a placebo (interquartile range for both, 9 to 13 days; hazard ratio, 1.07).

 

Twenty-one days after starting treatment, 82% in the ivermectin group and 79% receiving a placebo were symptom-free. Only 2% of patients in the ivermectin group and 3.5% in the placebo group experienced clinical deterioration of at least two points on an ordinal eight-point scale (absolute difference, -1.53). The odds ratio for clinical deterioration in those receiving ivermectin versus placebo was 0.56.

 

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Comments made of the study cited the "quote" section of Hebbeh's post #2528 suggest why the study might be flawed.

 

[joesixpack]

Ah yes, there has been controversy as to the effects that agents that effect ACE2 would have on the virus. Dr. Sheheult’s update #37, from March of 2020 has the details. It is complicated. Dr. Sinclair’s concern was held by many at the time. The counter argument is the hypothesis that the virus, by binding to ACE2, causes ACE2 degradation. TOO LITTLE ACE2 leads to high blood pressure and inflammation. In that case, raising ACE2 would be beneficial, not harmful. I think this counter hypothesis has won out, but maybe someone can weigh in on more recent results.

 

Losartan, a drug used to reduce blood pressure is an ACE2 inhibitor, and thought to protect against Covid 19. I do not think low ACE2 results in high blood pressure.

[joesixpack]

So, I guess I picked the wrong year to quit smoking.

[DanCG]

Losartan, a drug used to reduce blood pressure is an ACE2 inhibitor, and thought to protect against Covid 19. I do not think low ACE2 results in high blood pressure.

Losartan is a selective, competitive angiotensin II receptor type 1 (AT₁) antagonist.   AT1 is not ACE2. The angiotensin receptor is activated by the vasoconstricting peptide angiotensin II. Angiotensin I converting enzyme 2 (ACE 2) is an exopeptidase that catalyses the conversion of angiotensin I to the nonapeptide angiotensin[1-9],^[1] or the conversion of angiotensin II to angiotensin 1-7.

 

So, low ACE2 would raise bp by allowing angiotensin II to remain.

Losartan would compensate for a low level of ACE2 by inhibiting the action of angiotensin II.

Edited by DanCG, 06 March 2021 - 02:01 AM.

[joesixpack]

I also use that brand, but at only 500mg/day.

 

Many of the various effects of quercetin have been detected at 500mg/day according to this review: https://www.foundmyf...opics/quercetin

I have seen other examples not covered in that article. Since that dose seems to work despite the low bioavailability of quercetin, I am not overly concerned with absorption. It inhibits P-glycoprotein and since many other supplements also inhibit P-glycoprotein (resveratrol, milk thistle, piperine...) they would enhance each other’s absorption if taken together.

An abstract was published about a month ago stating that 500mg of quercetin, 500mg of vitamin C and 50mg of bromelain (QCB) daily in 2 divided doses was effective for Covid prophylaxis for healthcare workers. That abstract has since disappeared. Anyway, based on that I started using the Drs Best quercetin/bromelain combo at 500mg/day. I have been taking 500mg of vitamin C/day for the last 25+ years.

The Bromelain is there because it improves the absorbtion of Quercetin.

[joesixpack]

Losartan is a selective, competitive angiotensin II receptor type 1 (AT₁) antagonist.   AT1 is not ACE2. The angiotensin receptor is activated by the vasoconstricting peptide angiotensin II. Angiotensin I converting enzyme 2 (ACE 2) is an exopeptidase that catalyses the conversion of angiotensin I to the nonapeptide angiotensin[1-9],^[1] or the conversion of angiotensin II to angiotensin 1-7.

 

So, low ACE2 would raise bp by allowing angiotensin II to remain.

Losartan would compensate for a low level of ACE2 by inhibiting the action of angiotensin II.

 

Sorry If I got some of the terms wrong. Here is an article the describes what I was trying to say. I was wrong on the ACE 2 reference.  Fair use, less than 50%. The whole article is here: https://www.drugs.co...avirus-3534166/

 

 

• Losartan is not a receptor, but it does block a chemical (angiotensin II), from binding to a receptor, type 1 angiotensin 2 (AT1), which lowers blood pressure.
• Losartan does not block the virus causing COVID-19, called SARS-CoV-2, but it may reduce the activity of the renin-angiotensin system, which is overactive in people with high blood pressure, which may increase their risk of developing lung complications from COVID-19.
• Some animal studies found losartan beneficial at reducing severe simulated lung injury in mice exposed to other viruses, such as SARS. Few human studies have been conducted.
• For now, any beneficial effects of losartan are just a hypothesis (suggestion). It is not a good idea to institute any medical therapy based on an untested hypothesis since unexpected harms may outweigh any benefits.
• For people already taking losartan or any other ARB, the advice from the medical community is to keep taking it unless your doctor tells you otherwise.

Losartan (Cozaar) belongs to a class of medicines called Angiotensin Receptor Blockers (ARBs), also known as Angiotensin II receptor antagonists.

Losartan work by blocking the action of a natural chemical called angiotensin II. ARBs prevent angiotensin II from binding to type 1 angiotensin 2 receptors (AT1) located in the heart, blood vessels, kidney, adrenal cortex, lung, and brain. Losartan, therefore, works on the renin-angiotensin system (RAS) which is a hormonal system that regulates blood pressure.

[DanCG]

The Bromelain is there because it improves the absorbtion of Quercetin.

Yes. I had been taking quercetin without bromelain because I think that absorption is good enough without it, especially if you also take vitamin C and maybe piperine or milk thistle. I switched to the bromelain formulation because that is exactly what was used in the study. I think that bromelain is the reason why the formulation has to be taken on an empty stomach. Bromelain is a protease, it would engage with proteins in a meal instead of helping quercetin uptake. I don't understand how a protease works to enhance quercetin uptake though.

[lancebr]

Looks like the FDA is now worried about Ivermectin

 

FDA warns against using head lice drug ivermectin to treat coronavirus

https://www.foxnews....eat-coronavirus

 

FDA warns against using ivermectin to treat or prevent COVID-19

https://www.fox13new...revent-covid-19

 

FDA warns against using anti-parasitic drug for Covid-19 after reports of hospitalizations

https://abc17news.co...spitalizations/

 

 

Edited by lancebr, 07 March 2021 - 03:30 PM.

[albedo]

Looks like the FDA is now worried about Ivermectin

 

FDA warns against using head lice drug ivermectin to treat coronavirus

https://www.foxnews....eat-coronavirus

 

FDA warns against using ivermectin to treat or prevent COVID-19

https://www.fox13new...revent-covid-19

 

FDA warns against using anti-parasitic drug for Covid-19 after reports of hospitalizations

https://abc17news.co...spitalizations/

 

From the first link:

"Even the levels of ivermectin for approved uses can interact with other medications, like blood-thinners," the FDA explains.

"You can also overdose on ivermectin, which can cause nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, hypotension (low blood pressure), allergic reactions (itching and hives), dizziness, ataxia (problems with balance), seizures, coma and even death."

Of course and under medical supervision you should not overdose and wrt interactions, well even with vitamins (K) you need to caution when using blood-thinners which is not  reason not to take vitamin (K) if you need it...

But I am sure there are other arguments for FDA.

Btw, just seen today: https://trialsitenew...pandemic-rages/

[DanCG]

Looks like the FDA is now worried about Ivermectin

 

FDA warns against using head lice drug ivermectin to treat coronavirus

https://www.foxnews....eat-coronavirus

 

FDA warns against using ivermectin to treat or prevent COVID-19

https://www.fox13new...revent-covid-19

 

FDA warns against using anti-parasitic drug for Covid-19 after reports of hospitalizations

https://abc17news.co...spitalizations/

 

These FDA warnings were addressed at about minute 35  in this great interview presented by Dr. Campbell.https://www.youtube....h?v=vYF8bnmdQfY

The whole interview is worthwhile. Up until yesterday, Dr. Campbell was in the "not sure" and "we need a bigger  better trial" camp about ivermectin. This interview with an expert on meta-analysis who looked at all of the evidence seems to have turned him around.

 

Ivermectin is one of the safest drugs in existence. The severe adverse events have probably been due to people self-medicating with veterinary products. 

 

I think the real problem here is that if ivermectin is used properly, its efficacy for prophylaxis is about the same as a vaccine and its efficacy for treatment is better than any of the new drugs. We can't have that.

 

 

Edited by DanCG, 07 March 2021 - 07:19 PM.

[geo12the]

 

I think the real problem here is that if ivermectin is used properly, its efficacy for prophylaxis is about the same as a vaccine and its efficacy for treatment is better than any of the new drugs. We can't have that.

 

Can you post a study which has tested "efficacy for prophylaxis is about the same as a vaccine"? 

[joesixpack]

This article will explain that the National Institute of Health removed it's objection to using Ivermectin for Covid 19 and will lead you to studies and testimony related to Ivermectin's success.

 

https://www.thedeser...69ec28f4c0.html

[DanCG]

Can you post a study which has tested "efficacy for prophylaxis is about the same as a vaccine"? 

The evidence was cited in the linked interview. She did not make the direct comparison to vaccines, but a study of health care workers showed >90 % prevention of infection.

 

I should point out, though, that the pooled data from all studies may not be that high. I am referring to one study of several that were discussed. Still, I think the point stands that there seems to be a deliberate effort to suppress evidence that anything other than vaccines or expensive new drugs will offer any hope in preventing or treating the disease. Thankfully, the barriers are beginning to break down. I am not anti-vax. I am on a waiting list for a vaccine, even though I am more confidant every day that if I did become infected, I could be successfully treated.

Edited by DanCG, 08 March 2021 - 01:24 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

FDA cautions AGAINST using IVM for COVID!  

 

 

This based on a Columbian RCT on young healthy people, where the primary outcome was how long they felt icky (resolution of symptoms) with coronairus (very little morbidity and only one death).  

 

 

We live in interesting times!  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 08 March 2021 - 03:29 PM.

[bladedmind]

Aren't the ivermectin-deniers identical to anti-vaxxers?   Except maybe for teens and youngest adults, the risks of noncrazy ivermectin prophylaxis and the like is at least one magnitude less than the risks of getting Covid-19.  Myself, I did ivermectin+ and am now doing vaccine. 

 

Why do relatively safe repurposed drugs require years of big beautiful trials, but vaccines just a smidgen of study and a rush out? 

 

And, repeating what I've said before, there are no covid-19 RCTs for masks (which I endorse and use), social distancing, or economic apocalypse.   The coercive social measures are unscientific.  Follow the science! 

 

Evidence for thee but not for me, chortled Fauci behind the curtain, fondly recalling his days of thwarting AIDS therapeutics. 

 

Edited by bladedmind, 08 March 2021 - 11:55 PM.

[geo12the]

Regarding Ivermectin, I am skeptical. Why? The reality is treatments against viruses are scarce. We are talking about ultra-streamlined molecular parasites here. Tiny pieces of RNA or DNA with a protein shell. Hard to target with drugs. There are few really effective antivirals. For HIV people need to take antivirals for the rest of their lives. For the flu there is Tamiflu which might shorten the duration a couple days. For common cold coronaviruses there is nothing: Vitamin C , echinacea etc. I have tried them all and they don't work.  So now I am supposed to believe there is a miracle treatment for COVID that the evil medical establishment is trying to suppress??? I just don't buy it.  I may be wrong about Ivermectin, there are clinical trials going on now, time will tell but I will wait until the data is all there. 

[Qowpel]

FDA cautions AGAINST using IVM for COVID!  

 

 

This based on a Columbian RCT on young healthy people, where the primary outcome was how long they felt icky (resolution of symptoms) with coronairus (very little morbidity and only one death).  

 

 

We live in interesting times!  

 

 

Random, but has that chin side effect from Ivermectin gone away for you?

 

Also I still have a bunch on hand

[Dorian Grey]

Random, but has that chin side effect from Ivermectin gone away for you?

 

Also I still have a bunch on hand

 

Funny you should ask...  I just took another 12mg with a fatty meal March 1st.  I should be coming eligible for vaccine in April, & if I caught plague at this stage of the game, I would consider this most unfortunate.  

 

I did take 6 weeks off, & believe my chin wattle did resolve a bit, but once you see something like this, it's hard to un-see it.  Have felt I am looking a bit older overall the past few months.  Don't mind this, so long as I have my health.  

[joesixpack]

Funny you should ask...  I just took another 12mg with a fatty meal March 1st.  I should be coming eligible for vaccine in April, & if I caught plague at this stage of the game, I would consider this most unfortunate.  

 

I did take 6 weeks off, & believe my chin wattle did resolve a bit, but once you see something like this, it's hard to un-see it.  Have felt I am looking a bit older overall the past few months.  Don't mind this, so long as I have my health.  

So, are you a little bit skeptical of the FDA warning that this drug, that has been used by millions, over many years, without adverse side effects, is dangerous to use for Covid 19? I am shocked.

 

And what is their motive? Think of the lives being lost.

[Gal220]

Regarding Ivermectin, I am skeptical. Why? 

 

Even so, why wasnt it authorized for emergency use back before Thanksgiving? It was already approved over 20 years ago for parasites, extremely safe.  We wouldnt have to wonder, we would know. Better to let another 200k die instead I suppose..Dr.Kory said it best, NIH pretends its peacetime.

Edited by Gal220, 09 March 2021 - 05:45 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

Even so, why wasnt it authorized for emergency use back before Thanksgiving? It was already approved over 20 years ago for parasites, extremely safe.  We wouldnt have to wonder, we would know. Better to let another 200k die instead I suppose..Dr.Kory said it best, NIH pretends its peacetime.

 

Politicians are trusting desk doctors who haven't treated a patient in years over board certified pulmonologists, actively treating patients in the field.  

 

Every time I see this going on, it makes me fantasize about variants evading the vaccines, & forcing policy makers to start actually TREATING PATIENTS, with whatever currently exists.  

 

My faith in medical science has been shaken to the core!  

[Zwergpirat]

Would anyone please please please consider that negative results from RCTs may just be... negative results and that we were just wrong? (HCQ, Ivermectin..) Not everything is a big conspiracy. It's getting a little silly..