3083 replies to this topic

[Advocatus Diaboli]

geo12the writes:

 

"There is no scientifically sound mechanism whereby vaccinations can create variants."

 

That claim might take me a while to research. But, off the top of my non-virologist head I can think of what appears to me to be a plausible mechanism for a vaccine to facilitate variant production, which I may totally disavow upon further thought.

 

"There are no examples of this happening with other vaccines."

 

Did you forget a "that I know of" at the end of that claim?

 

geo12the, Hip.

 

Now I'm going to have to look at timelines and claims in relation to timelines. And cross my fingers in the hope of being able to depend on search results.

 

 

 

 

[Dorian Grey]

Here's the theory on partially effective vaccines driving immune escape (increased likelihood and possibly more dangerous variants) 

 

https://stateofthenation.co/?p=56254

 

See also attached pdf. 

 

All RNA virus produce a lot of variants all the time.  The current vaccines were designed for the (near) original virus spike protein.  The current vaccines appear to be working against variants that have already occurred regarding prevention of advanced disease, but they do not reliably prevent infection.  When partially effective vaccines are used in a pandemic, the likelihood of novel new viral variants increases, as infection still occurs and replicates for a time.  The partially effective vaccines inhibit the original form of the virus, but may allow or perhaps even promote success of novel new variants.

 

It's an interesting theory.  The world has already committed to mass vaccination, so I guess we'll see what happens.  

Attached Files

•  Geert-Vanden-Bossche.pdf   2.58MB   4 downloads

[Gal220]

Oxygen, ventilators & steroids?  Oh my!  

What truly makes no sense at all is opining you'd rather get ambulanced off to a hospital and put on a vent, rather than popping a few dollars worth of pills at home.  

Plenty of options to choose from here: https://c19early.com/

 

Another thread on alternative protocols

https://twitter.com/...238360789454852

 

Another page of protocols  ... /salute the doctors who actually care

https://c19protocols.com/

 

 

Still a blind spot by many on natural anti-virals like licorice(shouldnt take long term), cats claw, curcumin, ECGC, quercetin, & bromelain or H202 nebulization.

So many cheap alternatives, some have really good studies, but virtually no follow up.

https://www.news-med...tease-Mpro.aspx

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/33806274/

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Thanks for the links, Dorian Grey. Saves me a lot of time as per my post #2791.

 

Mike Adams, the author of the article in your first link screws up on the meaning of NAC, which he gives as "Non-Asymptomatic Carriers", and which, upon reading a bit further, made no sense in context (as well as being a double negative). So, I had to resort to going to your PDF link to in order to find out that NAC actually means: "Natural Asymptomatic Carriers", at which point the Adams article started to make sense again.

 

Interesting reads, as you note.

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 29 June 2021 - 06:13 AM.

[DanCG]

There is no scientifically sound mechanism whereby vaccinations can create variants. It makes no sense.  There are no examples of this happening with other vaccines.  As Hip pointed out, Nobel Laureates sometimes go off the deep end.  

 

If you read what he said, it is quite evident that what he meant by "create variants" is that the vaccines are creating a selection pressure that favors variants that escape the vaccine. Sloppy language, maybe true, maybe not, but it is not a crazy idea.

Edited by DanCG, 29 June 2021 - 12:58 PM.

[Hip]

Another thread on alternative protocols

https://twitter.com/...238360789454852

 

Another page of protocols  ... /salute the doctors who actually care

https://c19protocols.com/

 

 

Still a blind spot by many on natural anti-virals like licorice(shouldnt take long term), cats claw, curcumin, ECGC, quercetin, & bromelain or H202 nebulization.

So many cheap alternatives, some have really good studies, but virtually no follow up.

https://www.news-med...tease-Mpro.aspx

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/33806274/

 

These are mainly in vitro antiviral studies on the herbs and supplements, performed in a petri dish, not in humans or animals. In vitro studies usually use very high concentrations of the substance, and these concentrations are usually not obtainable in the body, because even for supplements, there is a blood concentration which begins to cause toxicity to cells and organs.

 

The same issue with ivermectin. At super-high concentrations in vitro, it has antiviral effects against coronavirus. But those concentrations are far too high to attain in vivo. It's possible however that ivermectin at normal human doses may have some immune stimulating effects which help fight the virus.

Edited by Hip, 29 June 2021 - 02:05 PM.

[Hip]

If you read what he said, it is quite evident that what he meant by "create variants" is that the vaccines are creating a selection pressure that favors variants that escape the vaccine. Sloppy language, maybe true, maybe not, but it is not a crazy idea.

 

I guess in principle that idea might make sense on paper, but I have never heard of this happening in practice. A new updated flu vaccine is given every year in older people, in order to keep abreast of the yearly mutations in influenzavirus. But I have never heard anyone saying that the flu vaccine causes the mutations.

 

 

 

By the way, I think I found where the false claim that the COVID vaccines will kill everyone who takes in within 2 years actually came from. 

 

A similar comment came from another US virologist, who also went off the rails with mental health problems, and was consequently blocked on social media for spreading misinformation. I am not going to mention her name, because then some people her will start looking her up, and posting her nonsense statements here.

 

The pseudoscientific force is strong in some Longecity members, as Darth Vader did not quite say.

Edited by Hip, 29 June 2021 - 02:21 PM.

[Hip]

I actually have my own simple supplement-based protocol which I calculated would decrease the chances of catching COVID by a factor of about 4 if you are exposed to coronavirus by social contact. This protocol works even if you take it a few hours after any risky social exposure you have had to coronavirus (like going to an indoor bar or party full of people). I take it all the time after any potentially risky exposure to coronavirus.

 

This protocol works a bit like HIV post-exposure prophylaxis (PEP), where if you have had a risky exposure to HIV, you can take PEP to kill the virus before it  gets a foothold in the body.

 

If countries would have adopted this supplement-based protocol, I suspect a huge number of lives would have been saved. However, I have no evidence for the efficacy of my protocol, as obviously I have not conducted any empirical studies to gauge its real-world efficacy. It's only by a paper calculation that I worked out it may reduce risk of contraction by 4 times. Therefore, I cannot write to anyone to propose it as controlling measure, because I have no empirical evidence that it would work. That's they way it goes in medical science: if you have no empirical evidence for efficacy, your ideas do not get adopted.

 

 

Edited by Hip, 29 June 2021 - 02:20 PM.

[joesixpack]

I actually have my own simple supplement-based protocol which I calculated would decrease the chances of catching COVID by a factor of about 4 if you are exposed to coronavirus by social contact. This protocol works even if you take it a few hours after any risky social exposure you have had to coronavirus (like going to an indoor bar or party full of people). I take it all the time after any potentially risky exposure to coronavirus.

 

This protocol works a bit like HIV post-exposure prophylaxis (PEP), where if you have had a risky exposure to HIV, you can take PEP to kill the virus before it  gets a foothold in the body.

 

If countries would have adopted this supplement-based protocol, I suspect a huge number of lives would have been saved. However, I have no evidence for the efficacy of my protocol, as obviously I have not conducted any empirical studies to gauge its real-world efficacy. It's only by a paper calculation that I worked out it may reduce risk of contraction by 4 times. Therefore, I cannot write to anyone to propose it as controlling measure, because I have no empirical evidence that it would work. That's they way it goes in medical science: if you have no empirical evidence for efficacy, your ideas do not get adopted.

 

Would you care to share your protocol?

 

Mine is Vitamin C 500 MG, Vitamin D 5,000 IU, Multivitamin that contains Zinc, NR 300 MG, Quercetin with Bromelain 500 MG and 156MG respectively, 1 Pepcid tablet, Carbon 60 EVOO 1 TSP. I also take Losartan, and just had a Tetanus shot, both of which might have some anti viral properties. I have also taken the Pfizer vaccine.

 

I don't know if any of this will protect me from Covid, but so far I have not become sick with anything. I was already taking most of this stuff, before Covid came along.

[Gal220]

interesting guide to anti-virals - LINK1 , LINK2(aslo a longevity article, wonder if she visits our site)

 

Block viral entry - Curcumin, Quercetin, Luteolion, Emodin, Isatis 

Block viral replication - Curcumin, Quercetin, Isatis, EGCG(green tea or life extension pill), glycrrhizin(licorice) limit 90 mg, zinc

Blocks viral release - Curcumin

 

Not exhaustive, cats claw and honeysuckle have good studies as well, but still a good list.

 

Curcumin and quercetin both anti-cancer, good combo.  Quercetin is normally sold with bromelain for absorption, but it is also anti-covid - LINK

Make sure you are getting a source of zinc and vitamin D(multivitamin)

 

[Hip]

Would you care to share your protocol?

 

Sure, my coronavirus protection protocol is detailed in this post on the Phoenix Rising forum. It is a reasonably evidenced-based protocol.

 

 

My anti-coronavirus protocol uses two supplements, allicin and echinacea, which have each been proven in human studies to reduce the chances of catching a cold when exposed to a cold virus by a factor of about two. So taking both together, you should theoretically reduce the chances of by a factor of 4.

 

Remember that coronavirus is one of the common cold viruses (along with rhinovirus, adenovirus, and a few others). So if these two supplements can reduce the chances of catching a cold when exposed to a cold virus, it's likely they will also do the same for the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus.

 

 

 

Note that allicin and echinacea have only been shown to reduce the chances of catching a cold, but have not been shown effective at treating or shortening the duration or severity of a cold. This means that if a cold virus lands on your nasal or oral mucous membranes, these two supplements will help kill that virus at the outset, before it gets a chance to establish a roaring infection in your body.

 

But once an infection is established in your body, these supplement will likely no longer help. Thus they are likely preventative of COVID infection, but will probably not help much once you are in the midst of a COVID infection. 

 

 

I have used echinacea for decades to prevent colds. I have found that when you get the very first symptoms of a cold, a slightly tired feeling, or the odd sneeze, but the cold has not yet established itself in your body, then if you whack it with a good dose of echinacea, nine times out of ten that cold will never manifest. This is from decades of personal experience using echinacea to prevent colds.

 

But once your cold has started manifesting its full symptoms, then it is too late, as echinacea will not do anything to help. Again, I learnt this from experience.

Edited by Hip, 29 June 2021 - 11:02 PM.

[Hip]

Mine is Vitamin C 500 MG, Vitamin D 5,000 IU, Multivitamin that contains Zinc, NR 300 MG, Quercetin with Bromelain 500 MG and 156MG respectively, 1 Pepcid tablet, Carbon 60 EVOO 1 TSP. I also take Losartan, and just had a Tetanus shot, both of which might have some anti viral properties. I have also taken the Pfizer vaccine.

 

I don't know if any of this will protect me from Covid, but so far I have not become sick with anything. I was already taking most of this stuff, before Covid came along.

 

Those will certainly not do any harm, but I have not seen any empirical evidence that they might help prevent catching coronavirus. 

 

If you can find any supplement that has been shown to protect against the common cold, then I suspect it will likely work for SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus too. 

[Qowpel]

Would you care to share your protocol?

 

Mine is Vitamin C 500 MG, Vitamin D 5,000 IU, Multivitamin that contains Zinc, NR 300 MG, Quercetin with Bromelain 500 MG and 156MG respectively, 1 Pepcid tablet, Carbon 60 EVOO 1 TSP. I also take Losartan, and just had a Tetanus shot, both of which might have some anti viral properties. I have also taken the Pfizer vaccine.

 

I don't know if any of this will protect me from Covid, but so far I have not become sick with anything. I was already taking most of this stuff, before Covid came along.

add glycine plus NAC for the increase in glutathione to support NK cell function

[geo12the]

If you read what he said, it is quite evident that what he meant by "create variants" is that the vaccines are creating a selection pressure that favors variants that escape the vaccine. Sloppy language, maybe true, maybe not, but it is not a crazy idea.

 

 It does not mean the vaccines are bad or that people should not be vaccinated. It's irrelevant. 

[Gal220]

 

interesting guide to anti-virals - LINK1 , LINK2(aslo a longevity article, wonder if she visits our site)

 

Block viral entry - Curcumin, Quercetin, Luteolion, Emodin, Isatis 

Block viral replication - Curcumin, Quercetin, Isatis, EGCG(green tea or life extension pill), glycrrhizin(licorice) limit 90 mg, zinc

Blocks viral release - Curcumin

 

Not exhaustive, cats claw and honeysuckle have good studies as well, but still a good list.

 

Curcumin and quercetin both anti-cancer, good combo.  Quercetin is normally sold with bromelain for absorption, but it is also anti-covid - LINK

Make sure you are getting a source of zinc and vitamin D(multivitamin)

 

 

Add Dandelion to the list - LINK1, LINK2

 

Whats so criminal is Peter McCullough says the NIH dropped their drug program last May, but at least the FLCC/others promote Ivermectin and Steve Kirsch does the same for flovaxamine. Im not aware of anyone taking a proper look at these natural anti-virals.

Edited by Gal220, 30 June 2021 - 08:40 PM.

[Hip]

Add Dandelion to the list - LINK1, LINK2

 

This is an in vitro study. Big difference between in vitro results and in vivo results. 

 

Usually for in vitro studies, they use extremely high concentrations, concentrations which cannot be matched in vivo.

 

There are hundreds of herbs which show antiviral effects for numerous viruses in vitro, but they do not work in vivo.

 

Dandelion almost certainly will not have a significant antiviral effect in vivo when you take this herb orally.  

 

 

 

Likewise for the other supplements and herbs you listed above. These may be antiviral in vitro, but they will not work when you actually take them as a supplement.

 

 

Lot of alternative health practitioners don't understand the difference between an in vitro and in vivo study, and they think that because a herb is antiviral in vitro, then it must work in vivo. Which is completely false.

Edited by Hip, 30 June 2021 - 08:27 PM.

[Gal220]

This is an in vitro study. Big difference between in vitro results and in vivo results. 

Lot of alternative health practitioners don't understand the difference between an in vitro and in vivo study, and they think that because a herb is antiviral in vitro, then it must work in vivo. Which is completely false.

 

Right, we should know more, but there is some testing going on.

 

Ive seen studies with Licorice(easy to take too much but ive seen it at the top of a few lists) - LINK

Honeysuckle - LINK

Curcumin - LINK

Green Tea(black tea also) - LINK

 

Just not much promotion of them.

[Hip]

Right, we should know more, but there is some testing going on.

 

If you know about pharmacokinetics, you can often calculate in advance whether a substance which is antiviral in vitro will have an antiviral effect when you take it orally or by injection. Pharmacokinetics allows you to calculate the blood levels that of the substance that will be achieved when you take it orally or by injection. 

 

So someone with pharmacokinetic expertise can "convert" the results of an in vitro antiviral study into a prediction of the in vivo results, without having to perform in vivo testing. 

 

But on complexity is that as well as an antiviral effect, some substances may instead have an immunomodulatory effect which fights viruses. In vitro studies in cell lines can only measure the antiviral effect, but cannot measure the immunomodulatory effect. So sometimes in vitro studies can miss a useful substance which might fight a virus of interest, because its ability to fight viruses may be the result of some immune-stimulating immunomodulatory action.

 

Thus it is usually best to perform in vivo testing in animals or humans to see if a substance is going to have some beneficial effect against a virus in the body. Of course, clinical trials cost money and resources, so you usually have to focus on the most promising substances. 

 

 

 

As someone who has virally-triggered myalgic encephalomyelitis (chronic fatigue syndrome), over the years I have poured through literally hundreds of papers examining the antiviral properties of various supplements, herbs and off-label drugs, in the hope of finding something that would work against the chronic viral infection I have, for which there are currently no good antiviral drugs (I have chronic coxsackievirus B infection).

 

I have read hundreds of papers studying herbs or off-label drugs showing strong in vitro antiviral effects against coxsackievirus B and other viruses; but when you perform the necessary pharmacokinetic calculations to see whether these substances have antiviral effects in vivo, sadly they don't.

 

So in spite of spending 1000s of hours reading though a ton of antiviral studies over the last 10 years, I have not found one single substance that works against coxsackievirus B, even though dozens of substance work well against this virus in vitro. 

 

That's why I know how very difficult it is to find natural antivirals which work. 

Edited by Hip, 30 June 2021 - 10:49 PM.

[Gal220]

So in spite of spending 1000s of hours reading though a ton of antiviral studies over the last 10 years, I have not found one single substance that works against coxsackievirus B, even though dozens of substance work well against this virus in vitro. 

 

That's why I know how very difficult it is to find natural antivirals which work. 

 

Human tests are happening, just no one is promoting them like the FLCC - LINK

Thailand medical at least lists them and mentions which ones have human tests in their articles - LINK

 

According to a recent study published in the journal the Lancet, concoctions with licorice extract as the main ingredient helped in the recovery 102 confirmed coronavirus infected patients exhibiting mild symptoms.

 

Like ivermectin, there is no money in it.

 

Licorice, Honeysuckle(if not dark skinned), and EGCG seem to have the most research.  But no one is really tracking it like the c19early.com

 

Sandra Kaufman's table I posted above was done in a presentation, be nice to see even 1 website like that.

Edited by Gal220, 01 July 2021 - 02:27 AM.

[Gal220]

Another trial with c3 curcumin - LINK

 

The trial involved a total of 140 patients with mild, moderate, and severe symptoms of COVID-19. Patients who received the C3 Complex showed quicker symptomatic recovery

[Hip]

Like ivermectin, there is no money in it.

 

There is not much money in dexamethasone, oxygen and use of ventilators, yet these have become the standard treatment for COVID. So that suggests you don't always need to have money behind a treatment for it to be adopted.

 

If there are some supplements or herbs out there which can help with COVID, then it is up to Big Vitamin to promote them.

 

Like Big Pharma, Big Vitamin has an enormous global annual income. So if any of Big Vitamin's products worked, Big Vitamin would certainly have the money to promote and push that product as a COVID treatment. The fact that Big Vitamin are not pushing any of their products suggests that not many supplements actually work for COVID. 

Edited by Hip, 01 July 2021 - 03:48 AM.

[joesixpack]

Sure, my coronavirus protection protocol is detailed in this post on the Phoenix Rising forum. It is a reasonably evidenced-based protocol.

 

 

My anti-coronavirus protocol uses two supplements, allicin and echinacea, which have each been proven in human studies to reduce the chances of catching a cold when exposed to a cold virus by a factor of about two. So taking both together, you should theoretically reduce the chances of by a factor of 4.

 

Remember that coronavirus is one of the common cold viruses (along with rhinovirus, adenovirus, and a few others). So if these two supplements can reduce the chances of catching a cold when exposed to a cold virus, it's likely they will also do the same for the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus.

 

 

 

Note that allicin and echinacea have only been shown to reduce the chances of catching a cold, but have not been shown effective at treating or shortening the duration or severity of a cold. This means that if a cold virus lands on your nasal or oral mucous membranes, these two supplements will help kill that virus at the outset, before it gets a chance to establish a roaring infection in your body.

 

But once an infection is established in your body, these supplement will likely no longer help. Thus they are likely preventative of COVID infection, but will probably not help much once you are in the midst of a COVID infection. 

 

 

I have used echinacea for decades to prevent colds. I have found that when you get the very first symptoms of a cold, a slightly tired feeling, or the odd sneeze, but the cold has not yet established itself in your body, then if you whack it with a good dose of echinacea, nine times out of ten that cold will never manifest. This is from decades of personal experience using echinacea to prevent colds.

 

But once your cold has started manifesting its full symptoms, then it is too late, as echinacea will not do anything to help. Again, I learnt this from experience.

Thanks, I will take a look at that.

[joesixpack]

There is not much money in dexamethasone, oxygen and use of ventilators, yet these have become the standard treatment for COVID. So that suggests you don't always need to have money behind a treatment for it to be adopted.

 

If there are some supplements or herbs out there which can help with COVID, then it is up to Big Vitamin to promote them.

 

Like Big Pharma, Big Vitamin has an enormous global annual income. So if any of Big Vitamin's products worked, Big Vitamin would certainly have the money to promote and push that product as a COVID treatment. The fact that Big Vitamin are not pushing any of their products suggests that not many supplements actually work for COVID. 

 

Well, most people on ventilators seem to die, but they get loads of drugs while they are doing it.

 

Oxygen does not help people that cannot absorb and use the the oxygen, like most people on ventilators. People that are treated with Ivermectin, zinc, and, or Hydroxychloroquine and zinc early on seem to survive. The suppression of those therapies is a crime.

[Gal220]

tubThere is not much money in dexamethasone, oxygen and use of ventilators, yet these have become the standard treatment for COVID. So that sug gests you don't always need to have money behind a treatment for it to be adopted.

 

If there are some supplements or herbs out there which can help with COVID, then it is up to Big Vitamin to promote them.

 

Like Big Pharma, Big Vitamin has an enormous global annual income. So if any of Big Vitamin's products worked, Big Vitamin would certainly have the money to promote and push that product as a COVID treatment. The fact that Big Vitamin are not pushing any of their products suggests that not many supplements actually work for COVID. 

I would like to see NOW, LEF, Thorne, Pure, and other manufacturers do research but doesnt seem it is part of their business model.  I doubt they have the people internally to do it, they would have to put up the research dollars for others to do it.  How do you get a return on EGCG if everyone can sell it.  Need a Steve Kirsch/Kory type pushing this side of things.

 

Even with trials and what not, without NIH approval, dont you dare claim it can help treat covid.  Big Vitamin knows whats going on, they arent the cool kids.  Fauci slapped down the idea of taking a multivitamin and still wont come out and give direct dosing advice on vit D.  A one day would also help with b12(seniors), selenium, and zinc. But we cant even get this basic endorsement from our health agencies...not like it isnt common knowledge . Not to mention what happened to Mercola just now, he tried to be a cool kid, didnt work out so well..

 

On the cheap drug side, Steve Kirsch is trying to push hard for fluvoxamine, but even with solid evidence, nothing.  Everyone is pushing IVM, so alternative cheap drugs to IVM get left in the dark.

 

And what about IVM, it has way more evidence than Remdesivir, but one was going to make way $$. Which one got approved?

 

You should look at some of the research on Licorice and mir2911(honeysuckle).  Sadly it has been known for some time.

 

 

Edited by Gal220, 01 July 2021 - 05:12 AM.

[Qowpel]

Well, most people on ventilators seem to die, but they get loads of drugs while they are doing it.

 

Oxygen does not help people that cannot absorb and use the the oxygen, like most people on ventilators. People that are treated with Ivermectin, zinc, and, or Hydroxychloroquine and zinc early on seem to survive. The suppression of those therapies is a crime.

wait zinc early, alone, works? ANy studies? i am interested

[Hip]

Oxygen does not help people that cannot absorb and use the the oxygen,

 

Oxygen has saved countless lives in the pandemic. If you were watching the news a month or two ago, many were dying during the new wave of COVID cases in India as a result of the shortage of medical oxygen there. Oxygen definitely saves lives, and is usually very cheaply available in hospitals.

 

So this contradicts the above thesis that only expensive drugs which pharmaceutical companies can profit from will make it as a COVID treatment. 

 

 

Same with the corticosteroid dexamethasone: this is an out of patent and cheap, and yet has become one of the few drugs which are routinely used to treat COVID. So again, this fact contradicts the thesis that only money-making drugs will be used to treat COVID.

 

The two main COVID treatments, oxygen and dexamethasone, are cheap and there is no money in them.

 

Of course mere facts will not stop the conspiracy theory merchants that there is a conspiracy to prevent COVID treatments being adopted.

 

 

 

Ventilators are not as helpful as they were initially hoped to be, but they serve an important job of preventing patients having to go through the horrors and hellish anxiety of gasping for their breath as their COVID progresses. In the early part of the pandemic, patients went through hours or days gasping for their breath as their lungs were failing, and they could not get oxygen. They were left to asphyxiate to death, which is a terrible and really horrible way to go.

 

Mercifully, nowadays when COVID patients get severe, they place them on a ventilator and give them drugs to put then in a medically-induced coma. Then either they survive, or they do not, but they do not have to face the horrors of asphyxiation to death.

 

The general public are often insulated and unaware of the realities of life and death in hospitals, but doctors do everything to try to save patients, and prevent them from experiencing extreme suffering or anxiety.

Edited by Hip, 01 July 2021 - 01:44 PM.

[Hip]

I would like to see NOW, LEF, Thorne, Pure, and other manufacturers do research but doesnt seem it is part of their business model.  I doubt they have the people internally to do it, they would have to put up the research dollars for others to do it.  How do you get a return on EGCG if everyone can sell it.  Need a Steve Kirsch/Kory type pushing this side of things.

 

I have argued before that Big Vitamin needs to be brought to book. 

 

They should be forced to spend a certain percentage of their enormous global profits on research studies. All supplement companies should by law be obliged to contribute a percentage of their profits to a research fund, which then conducts studies to determine the efficacy of various supplements for various diseases and conditions.

 

Each company would pay a fixed percentage of their turnover or profits into the research fund. Then if any supplements were proven effective for treating a medical condition, and doctors and hospitals thus started using that treatment, all supplement companies would benefit, because that supplement would be sourced from multiple companies.

 

At the moment Big Vitamin are making enormous profits selling supplements, but do not contribute much to the advancement of scientific research. By contrast, Big Pharma is forced by law to run clinical trials before any of its drugs can be licensed. I am certainly not saying we should make supplements licensable products; supplements should always be freely available; but Big Vitamin should be less greedy, and more philanthropic, by doing good research on the efficacy of its products.  

Edited by Hip, 01 July 2021 - 01:34 PM.

[DanCG]

Oxygen has saved countless lives in the pandemic. If you were watching the news a month or two ago, many were dying during the new wave of COVID cases in India as a result of the shortage of medical oxygen there. Oxygen definitely saves lives, and is usually very cheaply available in hospitals.

 

So this contradicts the above thesis that only expensive drugs which pharmaceutical companies can profit from will make it as a COVID treatment. 

 

 

Same with the corticosteroid dexamethasone: this is an out of patent and cheap, and yet has become one of the few drugs which are routinely used to treat COVID. So again, this fact contradicts the thesis that only money-making drugs will be used to treat COVID.

 

The two main COVID treatments, oxygen and dexamethasone, are cheap and there is no money in them.

 

Of course mere facts will not stop the conspiracy theory merchants that there is a conspiracy to prevent COVID treatments being adopted.

 

 

 

Oxygen and dexamethasone are not alternatives to vaccines or antivirals. Even though good hospital care that includes oxygen and dexamethasone can pull some people through, the pandemic is still undoubtedly an emergency. Hence, even with these treatments, there is clear justification for emergency use authorization of new vaccines and antivirals.

 

IF, on the other hand, there were a way to keep people out of the hospital by using a combination of cheap drugs and supplements that already exist, then some people might argue that an emergency does not exist. (I don’t think that myself, I think we should be doing everything that has a chance of working.) That is why the examples of oxygen and dexamethasone are not good counters to the “no money it it” argument re ivermectin or HCQ.

[Hip]

Oxygen and dexamethasone are not alternatives to vaccines or antivirals. Even though good hospital care that includes oxygen and dexamethasone can pull some people through, the pandemic is still undoubtedly an emergency. Hence, even with these treatments, there is clear justification for emergency use authorization of new vaccines and antivirals.

 

IF, on the other hand, there were a way to keep people out of the hospital by using a combination of cheap drugs and supplements that already exist, then some people might argue that an emergency does not exist. (I don’t think that myself, I think we should be doing everything that has a chance of working.) That is why the examples of oxygen and dexamethasone are not good counters to the “no money it it” argument re ivermectin or HCQ.

 

Firstly I am not sure if that emergency use authorization law applies to other countries apart from the US (I have not checked), and if it doesn't, then it would not be an issue elsewhere.

 

Secondly, even if HCQ did have some benefits for COVID, from what we know already, they are going to be slight. One very large study following a large group of people who take HCQ daily for their autoimmune illnesses found no reduction in COVID deaths in that group (I don't have the study ref to hand).This shows already that the benefits of HCQ are slight, if any. Other studies have found HCQ makes COVID worse. So HCQ is not the magic all-powerful antiviral that is going to save us from coronavirus. 

 

At best, HCQ might provide some slight benefits, but probably not even as much as oxygen or dexamethasone. 

 

 

 

Ivermectin is not antiviral for coronavirus in vivo, this has been clearly demonstrated. Ivermectin may however possibly fight coronavirus by an immunomodulatory mechanism, which stimulates the immune system in a beneficial way. This is not the same as an antiviral mechanism. There is currently a study on ivermectin in Oxford, and this should tell us more about any benefit of ivermectin on coronavirus.

[geo12the]

Oxygen and dexamethasone are not alternatives to vaccines or antivirals. Even though good hospital care that includes oxygen and dexamethasone can pull some people through, the pandemic is still undoubtedly an emergency. Hence, even with these treatments, there is clear justification for emergency use authorization of new vaccines and antivirals.

 

IF, on the other hand, there were a way to keep people out of the hospital by using a combination of cheap drugs and supplements that already exist, then some people might argue that an emergency does not exist. (I don’t think that myself, I think we should be doing everything that has a chance of working.) That is why the examples of oxygen and dexamethasone are not good counters to the “no money it it” argument re ivermectin or HCQ.

 

This is my opinion, be it dangerous and irresponsible or rub some people the wrong way:

 

HCQ doesn't work. This is the truth.  It was promoted by Dear Leader and now his followers just can't let go and admit the truth that it does not work. It's an example of how tribal and politicized our society has become and how some people  follow charlatan politicians like sheep. Even my Republican pulmonologist brother who voted for Trump stopped using it and told me it doesn't really work in his experience. Why can't the MAGA folks just let it go? Is it too brutal to admit maybe something recommended by Dear Leader does not work? Stop being sheep!