3083 replies to this topic

[geo12the]

Thanks for throwing me a bone here!  Now, how do you think remdesivir is still the "standard of care" in the USA, even after the WHO said they could find no benefit?  While the FDA still allows absolutely NOTHING for outpatient therapy?  

 

Do you believe it is truly imperative ALL of this: https://c19early.com/ remain forbidden fruit?  Doctors not allowed to prescribe without risking loosing their licence?  Pharmacists allowed to deny prescriptions written by licensed practitioners?  

 

Why is it so imperative the doctor patient relationship be totally controlled by government?   

 

I have no idea what the current standard of care is. I will ask my MD brother when he gets back from his vacation.  

 

There has been discussion of here of all sorts of experimental treatments from Licorice root to inhaled H2O2 etc. I am 100% Libertarian about what substances  people can put into their bodies. But at some point there is value in evidence-based medical science because it can uncover what works best and in the end save the most lives. Is the system perfect? No. But it works. You often point to the c19 site but I find it shady because the quality of those studies is not factored in and it's presented as a confusing mishmash. If someone wants to take Licorice root or extract or whatever for their COVID, fine go at it. But should doctors prescribe licorice root to patients as treatment for COVID? That is bordering on witch doctory. 

 

This is a very interesting, well balanced and well communicated article that covers the topics we are discussing here. I suggest everyone give it a read if you have the time:

 

https://emj.bmj.com/...tent/37/9/572  

Edited by geo12the, 08 July 2021 - 04:01 PM.

[geo12the]

.  

 

For this trial to get published, it had to first pass "peer review".  Are you opining these peer reviewers are also rube armchair scientist's too?  The journal, something not worthy of wiping your backside with?  

 

Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting. I read the paper and the methods they used are not scientifically sound. I just don't buy it.

Edited by geo12the, 08 July 2021 - 04:03 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting.

 

So Meta-Analysis a confusing mish-mash, Non-Gates Wellcome class WHO RCTs imperfect & thus worthless, medical journals little more than toilet tissue, the peer review process rubbish armchair science.  Where does all this nihilism leave us?  

 

Oh...  Forgot about the all knowing government medical oracles, who circle-jerk with Big Pharma at midnight, when the moon is full.  Remdesivir!  The Standard of Care!  Guess it doesn't matter, none of these jokers have seen and actually treated a patient for over a quarter of a century.  

 

We live in interesting times!  

[geo12the]

So Meta-Analysis a confusing mish-mash, Non-Gates Wellcome class WHO RCTs imperfect & thus worthless, medical journals little more than toilet tissue, the peer review process rubbish armchair science.  Where does all this nihilism leave us?  

 

 

 

That is not exactly what I said. I said the c19 is a confusing mish-mash, not Meta-analysis. Never said non-Gates RCTs or that the peer review process or all journals are worthless, just that one study. Why that one study? Read it. They essentially make up their own controls, Sorry I just don't buy it.  

[Dorian Grey]

Here's your current standard of care for COVID in 21st Century American medicine, after a year & a half of careful consideration.  

 

https://www.cdc.gov/...ic-options.html

 

"Current clinical management of COVID-19 consists of infection prevention and control measures and supportive care, including supplemental oxygen and mechanical ventilatory support when indicated. FDA has approved one drug, remdesivir (Veklury), for the treatment of COVID-19 in hospitalized patients aged 12 years and older who weigh at least 40 kg."

 

--------------------

 

Nice thing about remdesivir is, since it's an infusion, you can give it easily to ventilated patients.  ENJOY!  

[Gal220]

Just noticed curcumin on the https://c19early.com website, only a few studies, but very effective using nano-particles - LINK1, LINK2, LINK3

 

We've discussed curcumin many pages back, formulation is critical, I prefer Life Extension but they used nanomicelles in the study.  Solgar sells a version of this with the same dosage per pill

 

"(Sinacurcumin soft gel which contains 40 mg curcuminoids as nanomicelles), two soft gels twice a day after food for 2 weeks"

 

 

curcumin has low bioavailability, because it does not dissolve well in water and is unstable in aqueous media, especially at higher pH. When orally administered, it undergoes rapid metabolism by the gut and the liver. This obstacle may be overcome by using nanosystems.

Many different nanostructured carriers may be used for this purpose, such as nanoemulsions, microemulsions, nanogels, micelles, nanoparticles and liposomes. Such carriers prevent the metabolic breakdown of the curcumin, increases its solubility and help it move through biological membranes.

Three or more nanostructure-based curcumin products are already commercially

Edited by Gal220, 10 July 2021 - 05:24 AM.

[Gal220]

Green tea(EGCG) and black tea is looking good for covid - LINK1, LINK2

 

It inhibits the actions of the several viral protease enzymes involved in viral multiplication

It inhibits the cell membrane receptors (GGRP78) that the virus occasionally, uses to enter the host cells

It also prevents the virus from producing its structural proteins

 

EGCG is preferable b/c it helps zinc 

The EGCG can latch on to the zinc ion and carry it into the cell cytoplasm, where the zinc inhibits a viral protein called replicase.

 

Some real world analysis

Results Striking differences in COVID-19 morbidity (and mortality) between groups of countries with ‘high’ and ‘low’ green tea consumption. The differences were still observed after the adjustment for the onset of the disease. Besides, preliminary analysis using multiple linear regression approach suggests that the associations are present at the level of individual countries...

 

Both, COVID-19 morbidity and mortality were strikingly (several times) lower in the Group 1 as compared to Group 2 (and Group3).

 

 

Life extension makes a decaffeinated supplement, but the dose is too high(700mg - nausea for me).  It doesnt taste good, but I take half of it in water and then a half capsule the next day.  Important since covid causes clots and caffeine restricts blood vessels.

 

Dr.Zalenko also recommends Green Tea - VIDEO

Like Peter McCullough, notice Zalenko's focus on early treatment,  he didnt wait for positive test results to start treating.

Edited by Gal220, 11 July 2021 - 01:37 AM.

[Hip]

Early intervention is and always has been the hallmark of good medicine.  Solidarity & Recovery were SHAM SHOWS by design, long before the first patient every got his/her massive overdose upon admission to the trials, after they had become sick enough to require hospitalization.  

 

You will have to show me your medical evidence which demonstrates that later intervention for viral infections does not work, but only early intervention works.

 

We might expect early intervention to work better, naturally; but if the antiviral drug has effect against coronavirus, then you would also expect to see an effect in later intervention, even if that effect were less pronounced. 

 

I see no reason why an antiviral would stop working during later intervention. In the case of hepatitis C treatment with antivirals, these drugs still work even if you have had hepatitis for decades. But if you can cite studies or evidence which demonstrates that in general, antivirals do not work if given later, then I am all ears.

Edited by Hip, 11 July 2021 - 03:53 AM.

[Hip]

Let's take some time here to levy some severe criticism against Big Vitamin. Normally it is Big Pharma that gets the criticism, but at least Big Pharma spends the money to conduct clinical trials on its products. And naturally you are going to expect Big Pharma to be promoting its own products — every company does that. You would not expect Big Pharma to pay for trials on rival products. 

 

So when we see these supplements that some are claiming can help fight coronavirus, why isn't Big Vitamin funding clinical trials for these supplement? If these supplements can help, then Big Vitamin should be researching and promoting them, just as Big Pharma does for its products. If the supplements work, then just as Big Pharma does, Big Vitamin should be giving presentations to doctors, to expound upon the efficacy of their supplements.

 

Remember that supplements are Big Vitamin's products. So it should be Big Vitamin who spends the money to promote these products to the medical profession when these products have been shown to work in clinic trials paid for by Big Vitamin. But Big Vitamin does not do this. It rarely pays for clinical trials, and it almost never promotes its products to the medical profession.

 

So we can only conclude that the villain of the piece here is Big Vitamin. Big Vitamin are not pulling their weight, and not rising to meet their social responsibilities. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 11 July 2021 - 03:57 AM.

[Gal220]

So we can only conclude that the villain of the piece here is Big Vitamin. Big Vitamin are not pulling their weight, and not rising to meet their social responsibilities. 

Disagree completely, as Korie points out, no one at the NIH was looking at re-purposed drugs.  Like money for warp speed, we should have been allocating dollars to universities or research facilities to look at re-purposed drugs and plant anti-virals.  We could blame the vitamin sellers like Amazon or Iherb as easily as we could blame LEF/Thorne.  More people like Steve Kirsch should have been sponsoring research, why is he the only one talking about fluvoxamine, scary?   C19early.com just now has 4 studies on Curcumin, why did it take so long?

 

Even when it comes to new expensive drugs, if you believe McCullough, that stopped as soon as the vaccine looked good, back in MAY of 2020.  NIH has to be decentralized to the states.

But whoever you want to blame, WAY MORE research dollars should have been looking at repurposed drugs and vitamins/plant extracts.  And there are papers out there on many them  - docking and invitro studies,  but then it stops...

 

 

AND the studies should be made public as to who is doing them and what the results are, so little transparency in this whole mess, its disgusting.

Edited by Gal220, 11 July 2021 - 04:38 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

You will have to show me your medical evidence which demonstrates that later intervention for viral infections does not work, but only early intervention works.

 

We might expect early intervention to work better, naturally; but if the antiviral drug has effect against coronavirus, then you would also expect to see an effect in later intervention, even if that effect were less pronounced. 

 

I see no reason why an antiviral would stop working during later intervention. In the case of hepatitis C treatment with antivirals, these drugs still work even if you have had hepatitis for decades. But if you can cite studies or evidence which demonstrates that in general, antivirals do not work if given later, then I am all ears.

 

Early intervention, particularly with fast moving viral or bacterial infection is the most basic standard of practice in medicine.  The Tamiflu model is probably best known.  

 

https://www.accessda...1087s062lbl.pdf

 

"Efficacy of TAMIFLU in patients who begin treatment after 48 hours of symptoms has not been established"

 

You wouldn't do initial trials with an antiviral like Tamiflu AFTER patients where hospitalized with acute respiratory distress.  You'd start with a trial where you're most likely to see benefit, to first prove the hypothesis.  

 

Likewise, if you develop strep throat, you wouldn't want to delay antibiotics till your whole body went septic...  If your fasting blood glucose was over 350, you wouldn't wait til both of your legs were sawed off before you considered starting on insulin...  If a cancerous lump was found in your breast, you wouldn't wait till you had metastasis to your liver, lungs & brain before you considered an intervention.  

 

This ain't rocket science!  If you really wanted to see if HCQ had any benefit, you would initially do an early stage trial to establish proof of theory, & then perhaps further trials to see how late you could go before benefit was lost.  

 

Regarding Big Vitamin; there are plenty of exaggerated claims to be found, but I've had enough personal experience to appreciate their existence.  I lived on junk food, beer & cigarettes for almost a quarter century as a young adult.  Anyone who thinks I might not have had deficiencies that could be easily corrected hasn't done their homework. 

 

Don't know that I'd trust COVID to supplements alone, though zinc + EGCG ionophore might certainly be wise if you couldn't get some proper meds.  For COVID, I like IVM, HCQ & budesonide, which are not supplements, but existing medications doctors actually treating patients have found useful.  

 

I have nothing against those who wish to go with current advice for COVID.  Isolate at home, & call 911 if you start turning blue; & hopefully get some oxygen, steroids & remdesivir in ICU.  What I don't understand is why some are absolutely obsessed with preventing my doc from prescribing the meds he feels might help, pharmacist's filling the prescription, & me trying something besides watchful waiting if I fall ill. 

 

I've had tens of thousands of dollars deducted from my pay to support the Medical Industrial Complex throughout my life, without ever needing expensive care.  Throw me a fricken bone here, & let me try a few dollars worth if pharmaceuticals with a long history of safe use, studies numbering into the hundreds --

 

https://c19early.com/

 

-- have shown might help me avoid major damage or worse from this plague.  If they don't work, you can have the last laugh!  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 11 July 2021 - 04:57 AM.

[Hip]

We could blame the vitamin sellers like Amazon or Iherb as easily as we could blame LEF/Thorne.

 

When I refer to Big Vitamin, I am not talking about web stores or high street shops which sell vitamins, but the mega-corporations which own various household name vitamin brands. 

 

These massive global supplement corporations have turnovers and profits not that far behind Big Pharma's global profits. They could well afford to conduct clinical trials, but are too greedy and uncaring, it seems.

[Hip]

Early intervention, particularly with fast moving viral or bacterial infection is the most basic standard of practice in medicine. 

 

I am not denying that, but what I am saying is that if early intervention in COVID has a noticeable effect, then later intervention will likely also show benefit, but perhaps not as great a benefit.

 

Antibiotics still work if given later, but obviously it is best if they are given promptly. HIV antiretroviral drugs can revive a near dead AIDS patient and bring him back to normal health, but obviously it would be better to start taking antiretrovirals before you get to severe AIDS.

 

Thus it would be surprising if hydroxychloroquine worked noticeably well when given early, but did not work at all when given later. You might still expect to see some benefits for later treatment, but just not as great. 

Edited by Hip, 11 July 2021 - 05:15 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

I am not denying that, but what I am saying is that if early intervention in COVID has a noticeable effect, then later intervention will likely also show benefit, but perhaps not as great a benefit.

 

Antibiotics still work if given later, but obviously it is best if they are given promptly. HIV antiretroviral drugs can revive a near dead AIDS patient and bring him back to normal health, but obviously it would be better to start taking antiretrovirals before you get to severe AIDS.

 

Thus it would be surprising if hydroxychloroquine worked noticeably well when given early, but did not work at all when given later. You might still expect to see some benefits for later treatment, but just not as great. 

 

Apples & oranges...  HIV & HEP-C can take years from infection to catastrophic illness.  Focus if you will on fast moving viral infections that can kill in less than a month.  When in this scenario is watchful waiting ever wise if you've got a potential therapeutic?  

[joesixpack]

Of course, there is an other way. Just try it yourself and see if its works.

 

I had a walking-disabilty from PAD, a COPD stage 1 diagnosis, and ME/CFS symptoms (PEMs). There is no evidence for any medicine conventional or alternative to reverse any of them. However, with nothing more to loose than my life itself I tried natural means, and experienced remission of all 3 diseases (after years of efforts).

 

Actually its somehow embarasing how far that went: that it took all-out life-style changes and really comprehensive supplementation. In fact, except the pharmaceutical options, I probably taken virually everything in this thread suggested (against covid) for the last 13 years. Without even thinking of their possibly anti-viral effects, but multiple others. Of course also Licorice as powder or extract. My personal ongoing clincal trial of all vitamins, minerals, amino acids and phytochemicals. With no other outcome, than having my life back

Congratulations, on your survival. That is what it is coming to.

Any suggestions on what works the best"?

[joesixpack]

hmm seems legit good to be aware of. Looks like PPIs have less or no risk connected but the Histamine H2 antagonists do in older people when taken often. so best not to be taken frequently as a preventative. 

 

i'd imagine taking it for less than 1 week at symptom onset around standard doses, especially in non-elderly people, the risk would be negligible. and any short term cognitive impairment if any worth the big boost in recovery

Look, if I test positive, I want everything. 71 years old. I want ivermectin. I want hydroxy. I want anything that may help despite what the Doctors are saying. This is a vaccine that is not approved, that we are taking. Why can't we take the therapeutic's that are not approved?

 

Bullshit political crap, that is playing with our lives.

 

Anyone disagree?

[smithx]

hmm seems legit good to be aware of. Looks like PPIs have less or no risk connected but the Histamine H2 antagonists do in older people when taken often. so best not to be taken frequently as a preventative.

 

 

You have that backwards. PPIs are unsafe, H2 antagonists are safe. Please be careful to check things before posting, because this misinformation could be harmful. See:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/32931766/

 

Proton Pump Inhibitors Versus Histamine-2 Receptor Antagonists Likely Increase Mortality in Critical Care: An Updated Meta-Analysis

 

Results: Of 28,559 total patients, 14,436 (50.5%) were allocated to PPI and 14,123 to H2RAs (49.5%). Compared to H2RAs, the pooled relative risk for mortality was 1.05 (95% confidence interval 1.00-1.10) with an estimated risk difference for mortality of 9 additional deaths per 1000 patients exposed to PPI (95% confidence interval 0-18); heterogeneity was low (I² = 0%; P = 0.826).

 

Conclusions: Stress ulcer prophylaxis with PPIs likely increases mortality compared to H2RAs.

 

 

 

PPIs have multiple very serious risks attached:

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC6463334/

The risks of long-term use of proton pump inhibitors: a critical review

 

The association between PPI use and infection, particularly Clostridium difficile and pneumonia, has been the subject of several studies. It’s proposed that the alteration in gastrointestinal microflora by PPIs produces an environment conducive to development of these types of infections. At least one study has suggested that long-term PPI use increases the risk of dementia. Drug interactions are an important and often overlooked consideration when prescribing any medication. The potential interaction between PPIs and antiplatelet agents has been the subject of multiple studies. One of the more recent concerns with PPI use is their role in the development or progression of chronic kidney disease. There is also some literature suggesting that PPIs contribute to the development of various micronutrient deficiencies.

 

 

 

PPIs are likely are a risk factor for COVID-19!

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC7538064/

Proton pump inhibitor use is associated with increased risk of severity and mortality from coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) infection

Based on our pooled analysis of available data, the use of proton pump inhibitors (PPIs) seems to be associated with an enhanced risk of severity and mortality from COVID-19 infection. Several reasons can be proposed to explain this result. First, PPI exerts its effects by inhibiting the proton pump which results in the suppression of gastric acid production [12]. This profound hypochlorhydria can diminish the protective effect of gastric acid. As we know, the ACE2 receptor is also expressed in the mucosa of the gastrointestinal (GI) tract and the fecal-oral route has been raised as one of the potential modes of transmission for COVID-19. Therefore, suppression of gastric acid may increase the survival of SARS-CoV-2 in the stomach and increase the ability of the virus to invade the GI epithelial cells. This condition can increase the viral load which in turn results in a higher chance of developing cytokine storm and severe outcome of the disease [13]. Moreover, the profound hypochlorhydria condition can also cause an increase in gastric microbiota and small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. The resulting dysbiosis conditions might increase the likelihood of developing enteric infections and sepsis which could complicate the disease. Not only that, when micro-aspiration happened, the bacteria will also then colonize in the lung and develop the secondary infection. The secondary infection may increase the likelihood of developing Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (ARDS) and severe outcome of the disease which may increase the mortality rate from COVID-19 [14]. Besides hypochlorhydria, PPI can also cause several serious adverse events such as gastric tumors, cardiovascular disease, and nephrotoxicity. PPI can inhibit the enzymatic activity of dimethylarginine dimethylaminohydrolase (DDAH) which will inhibit the nitric oxide synthase with the promotion of inflammation and thrombosis, resulting in the development of the cardiovascular disease. The idiosyncratic effect of PPIs on the kidneys will also lead to recurrent acute interstitial nephritis, a humoral- and cell-mediated hypersensitivity reaction which results in inflammation of the renal interstitium and tubules. All of these adverse events from PPI can also contribute to the development of severe outcome and mortality from COVID-19 infection [15,16]. Finally, PPI can also modulate the immune response by inhibiting neutrophil function. Neutrophil plays a significant role in the innate immune system which is the first-line defense of the body to fight infection. Inhibition of neutrophil function may impair the ability of the body to eradicate the infection and may increase the severity of infection, including COVID-19 infection [17].

 

Edited by smithx, 11 July 2021 - 07:09 AM.

[Qowpel]

Early intervention, particularly with fast moving viral or bacterial infection is the most basic standard of practice in medicine.  The Tamiflu model is probably best known.  

 

https://www.accessda...1087s062lbl.pdf

 

"Efficacy of TAMIFLU in patients who begin treatment after 48 hours of symptoms has not been established"

 

You wouldn't do initial trials with an antiviral like Tamiflu AFTER patients where hospitalized with acute respiratory distress.  You'd start with a trial where you're most likely to see benefit, to first prove the hypothesis.  

 

Likewise, if you develop strep throat, you wouldn't want to delay antibiotics till your whole body went septic...  If your fasting blood glucose was over 350, you wouldn't wait til both of your legs were sawed off before you considered starting on insulin...  If a cancerous lump was found in your breast, you wouldn't wait till you had metastasis to your liver, lungs & brain before you considered an intervention.  

 

This ain't rocket science!  If you really wanted to see if HCQ had any benefit, you would initially do an early stage trial to establish proof of theory, & then perhaps further trials to see how late you could go before benefit was lost.  

 

Regarding Big Vitamin; there are plenty of exaggerated claims to be found, but I've had enough personal experience to appreciate their existence.  I lived on junk food, beer & cigarettes for almost a quarter century as a young adult.  Anyone who thinks I might not have had deficiencies that could be easily corrected hasn't done their homework. 

 

Don't know that I'd trust COVID to supplements alone, though zinc + EGCG ionophore might certainly be wise if you couldn't get some proper meds.  For COVID, I like IVM, HCQ & budesonide, which are not supplements, but existing medications doctors actually treating patients have found useful.  

 

I have nothing against those who wish to go with current advice for COVID.  Isolate at home, & call 911 if you start turning blue; & hopefully get some oxygen, steroids & remdesivir in ICU.  What I don't understand is why some are absolutely obsessed with preventing my doc from prescribing the meds he feels might help, pharmacist's filling the prescription, & me trying something besides watchful waiting if I fall ill. 

 

I've had tens of thousands of dollars deducted from my pay to support the Medical Industrial Complex throughout my life, without ever needing expensive care.  Throw me a fricken bone here, & let me try a few dollars worth if pharmaceuticals with a long history of safe use, studies numbering into the hundreds --

 

https://c19early.com/

 

-- have shown might help me avoid major damage or worse from this plague.  If they don't work, you can have the last laugh!  

Exactly. This is a simple concept. Viruses replicate. The more they replicate that faster they approach the body's threshold to handle killing these little, ever-replicating, viral soldiers...... Taking out 100 viral particles, via the work of 100 natural killer cells, or antibodies, is far easier for your body to handle, than the same 100 NK cells or antibodies trying to fight against 100000 viral particles. A super soaker water gun can put out a 2 square foot fire in the woods. But if you let the fire grow, that fire power of said water gun which was able to handle a tiny tiny tiny fire, no longer can handle a fire that has now grown to 5 acres. Simple. Concept.

[Hip]

Exactly. This is a simple concept. Viruses replicate. The more they replicate that faster they approach the body's threshold to handle killing these little, ever-replicating, viral soldiers...... Taking out 100 viral particles, via the work of 100 natural killer cells, or antibodies, is far easier for your body to handle, than the same 100 NK cells or antibodies trying to fight against 100000 viral particles. A super soaker water gun can put out a 2 square foot fire in the woods. But if you let the fire grow, that fire power of said water gun which was able to handle a tiny tiny tiny fire, no longer can handle a fire that has now grown to 5 acres. Simple. Concept.

 

That is a misunderstanding of how antivirals work, to assume that a viral infection can move beyond the ability of an antiviral to fight it.

 

Antivirals do not inhibit viral infections by ramping up the immune response, and getting the immune system to fight harder against the infection. (There are drugs which operate in that immune boosting way, and they are sometimes referred to as immunomodulators).

 

Antivirals inhibit viruses by thwarting certain steps in the lifecycle of a virus. An antiviral may work by inhibiting cellular entry; it may work by inhibiting uncoating; it may work by inhibiting viral replication inside the cell; these are all steps in the viral lifecycle that an antiviral drug can thwart.

 

It does not matter if you have 100 viral particles in your body, or 100 million; an antiviral drug, once it is in your blood and tissues, will thwart each and every virus with the same ease. An antiviral drug is not overwhelmed by increasing numbers of viruses in your body. It continues to work equally well on all viruses in your body, no matter how many viruses are in your blood and tissues. 

 

 

 

The only reason I can see that early treatment might work a lot better relates to immune system damage and dysfunction. If the infection progresses and starts to damage or thwart the immune system, then things may get bad. Thus in such cases, there might well be a major advantage in treating the infection early, to prevent it getting to the stage where it starts to cause major immune dysfunction.  

 

 

 

Incidentally if ivermectin is proven to have efficacy against coronavirus, it will not be through an antiviral mechanism, and studies have shown ivermectin does not possess any antiviral capabilities in vivo at normal safe doses. But is is possible ivermectin may have some immunomodulatory properties (immune boosting effects) which help fight coronavirus.

Edited by Hip, 12 July 2021 - 02:30 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

Oh Hip, you've hit the nail on the head mate!  

 

"The only reason I can see that early treatment might work a lot better relates to immune system damage and dysfunction. If the infection progresses and starts to damage or thwart the immune system, then things may get bad. Thus in such cases, there might well be a major advantage in treating the infection early, to prevent it getting to the stage where it starts to cause major immune dysfunction."

 

https://onlinelibrar...0.1002/rmv.2135

 

Innate immune evasion by SARS-CoV-2: Comparison with SARS-CoV

 

"Multiple strategies enable SARS-CoV-2 to eventually overcome antiviral innate immune mechanisms which are important components of viral pathogenesis. This review considers several mechanisms of SARS-CoV-2 innate immune evasion including suppression of IFN-α/β production at the earliest stage of infection, mechanisms that exhaust natural killer cell-mediated cytotoxicity, overstimulation of NLRP3 inflammasome and induction of a cytokine storm"

 

---------------------------

 

Early intervention that suppresses replication can buy your immune system precious time to mount a proper response.  Allowing viral loads to spike sky-high potentiates a cytokine storm.  

 

Experience with sepsis has also taught us timing of immune modulation (steroids) is also critical.  Give these too early, & you suppress immune response; too late, and you're putting out a forest fire with a garden hose.  

[Dorian Grey]

Sorry, I don't know how to do the quotes properly, but regarding ivermectin...  

 

"Incidentally if ivermectin is proven to have efficacy against coronavirus, it will not be through an antiviral mechanism, and studies have shown ivermectin does not possess any antiviral capabilities in vivo at normal safe doses. But is is possible ivermectin may have some immunomodulatory properties (immune boosting effects) which help fight coronavirus."

 

There are supposed to be several modes of action.  One of the non-antiviral modes is supposed to involve CD147 inhibition, which alleviates hemagglutination (clumping of red blood cells).

 

https://europepmc.or...e/ppr/ppr242655

 

Ivermectin for COVID-19 Treatment: Clinical Response at Quasi-Threshold Doses Via Hypothesized Alleviation of CD147-Mediated Vascular Occlusion

 

----------------

 

Sorry I can't find the video, but I recall Dr Jackie Stone talking about treating COVID patients with ivermectin in Zimbabwe.  She said the ICU nurses would actually notice an improvement in the "pleth" (plethysmographic curve) of the pulse oximeter within hours of starting IVM.  They'd tell her as she came in, "this one is ready to go to the floor" (leave ICU).

 

The pulse oximeter pleth curve measures capillary blood flow, & has spikes & valleys that follow the pulse, much like an EKG trace.  COVID patients admitted to ICU often have a very muddy pleth, with puny spikes, and shallow valleys, indicative of hemeagglutination.  Dr Stone was so impressed with the difference in the pleth curves, she actually photographed it for her interview.  

 

Having worked in surgery for 35 years, & seen a lot of pleth curves, seeing her photos was a EUREKA moment for me.  Oh wow...  Blood flowing smoothly again.  Hemeagglutinatin be gone!  Thanks IVM!  

Attached Files

•  pleth.jpg   23.24KB   0 downloads

Edited by Dorian Grey, 12 July 2021 - 04:50 AM.

[lancebr]

Looks like another side effect from the Johnson & Johnson vaccine about a neurological disorder:

 

https://www.reuters....ton-2021-07-12/

 

 

[CarlSagan]

You have that backwards. PPIs are unsafe, H2 antagonists are safe. Please be careful to check things before posting, because this misinformation could be harmful. See:

 

 

Read the context. that post was replying to another about effects on dementia.

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/28590010/

 

https://www.ajgponli...481(18)30362-2/

Edited by CarlSagan, 13 July 2021 - 01:15 PM.

[bladedmind]

Lab leak DRASTIC organizer Billy Bostickson:

 

Stool transplant as Covid-19 treatment...

Gut microbiome…autoimmunity…ARDS...

Probiotics…kefir…breast milk…yogurt…kimchi…sauerkraut

Fermented cabbage hypothesis

 

Edited by bladedmind, 13 July 2021 - 08:17 PM.

[bladedmind]

Trust the science!

Landmark research integrity survey finds questionable practices are surprisingly common
 

More than half of Dutch scientists regularly engage in questionable research practices, such as hiding flaws in their research design or selectively citing literature, according to a new study. And one in 12 admitted to committing a more serious form of research misconduct within the past 3 years: the fabrication or falsification of research results.

Ask for a reference the next time you encounter a lecture on the pure motives of scientific experts, in comparison to those nasty, ignorant, deplorable citizens.

[Dorian Grey]

Lab leak DRASTIC organizer Billy Bostickson:

 

Stool transplant as Covid-19 treatment...

Gut microbiome…autoimmunity…ARDS...

Probiotics…kefir…breast milk…yogurt…kimchi…sauerkraut

Fermented cabbage hypothesis

 

 

Interesting the US, UK & Western Europe, where we "followed the science" did so pathetically poor, while China & the third world seemed to have a much easier time.  Wonder what could be going on here?  Oh, wait!  GlobalHCQ.png (attached).  Occam's razor strikes again!  

Attached Files

•  GlobalHCQ.png   327.19KB   0 downloads

[Hip]

Trust the science!

Landmark research integrity survey finds questionable practices are surprisingly common
 

Ask for a reference the next time you encounter a lecture on the pure motives of scientific experts, in comparison to those nasty, ignorant, deplorable citizens.

 

Citizens are not nasty and deplorable (well, most of them aren't), but they are often ignorant of science, which then makes it hard for them to understand complex phenomena like pandemics, virology and immunology.

 

 

Scientific fraud does seem to be on the increase; maybe that is in part due to the increased pressures we place on scientists these days, to constantly pump out papers and get cited, if they want to maintain their career. Life is much tougher for scientists in more recent decades. 

 

In the UK at least, those pressures on scientists only appeared from around the 1980s onwards. In the UK, under Thatcherism, this was a time when science became more commercialized and more intimately connected to business; whereas before the 1980s, science had been a bit more of a pure blue skies discipline, disconnected from commercial pressures.

 

 

But to put that 8% fraudulent practices into context: 5% of all small-scale studies which use the standard p-value of 0.05 will be totally wrong anyway. When you set the p-value for significance to be 0.05, which is the recognized standard, it means that 19 of 20 studies using that p-value will be correct, but 1 out of 20 will be wrong. This is nothing to do with fraud, just statistics. 

 

This is why you should not take the result of a single small-scale study using a p-value of 0.05 as gospel, as the results of 1 in 20 of all such studies will be false.

Edited by Hip, 13 July 2021 - 09:06 PM.

[bladedmind]

Not science:

 

https://twitter.com/...688158106099713

 

India Last 30 days

Uttar Pradesh with 17% of the country pop had 2.5% of the deaths and less than 1% of the cases

Maharashtra with 9% of the pop had 18% of the cases and 50% of the total deaths

Maharashtra is India's pharma hub

Uttar Pradesh is the champion in using ivermectin

 

 India.jpg   71.92KB   0 downloads

Edited by bladedmind, 13 July 2021 - 09:21 PM.

[Hip]

Not science:

 

https://twitter.com/...688158106099713

 

 

 

From what I can make out, the data in that tweet by Juan Chamie-Quintero about Uttar Pradesh seems to demonstrate that ivermectin is utterly useless for COVID! Le met explain:

 

 

The graph in the tweet shows that the Indian state Maharashtra has the highest number of COVID deaths per capita in the last 30 days, and the graph shows the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh has a relatively low number of deaths per capita.

 

Juan in the tweet says Uttar Pradesh is using ivermectin, and so he is implying that the low number of deaths per capita in Uttar Pradesh is due to ivermectin. 

 

 

But what the tweet fails to mention is that Maharashtra is also using ivermectin — see this article! The articles says: "Uttar Pradesh and Maharashtra – are using the drug off-label for not only the treatment of coronavirus patients but also as prophylaxis against COVID-19".

 

And yet in spite of ivermectin usage for COVID treatment and prevention, Maharashtra has the highest per capita death rate out of all Indian states in the last 30 days! So that makes ivermectin look very ineffective. 

 

 

Furthermore, you can see from the graph in the tweet that there are about 15 Indian states with a similarly low per capita deaths as Uttar Pradesh, even though they are not using ivermectin.

 

So again, it does not look like ivermectin is helping to lower the death rate in Uttar Pradesh at all, because many other states which are not using ivermectin have a similarly low per capita death rate from COVID.

 

 

 

Thus the data from Uttar Pradesh and Maharashtra seem to show ivermectin is useless for treating COVID.

Edited by Hip, 13 July 2021 - 10:58 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

Hard to find the exact timing, but it appears Uttar may have pioneered IVM, & Maharashtra only picked it up in April 2021, perhaps after seeing how well it was working in Uttar.  

 

https://trialsitenew...essed-in-media/

 

Three Indian states, including Goa, Karnataka and Uttarakhand, have authorized ivermectin as a prophylaxis along with vitamin D during the pandemic. Now Maharashtra, home to about 126 million people and the city of Mumbai, filed an action with the Mumbai high court yesterday directing the central government to file an affidavit based on public interest litigation (PIL) that too calls for ivermectin and vitamin D as a prophylactic regimen in the COVID-19 protocol.

 

This protocol was enacted on April 8, 2021. Apparently, the matter will be dealt with in June. In the meantime, an unprecedented turnaround in the nation’s most populated state has been supported by an aggressive, population-wide scheme using ivermectin-based home medicine kits.