23 replies to this topic

[kurdishfella]

Hey I was thinking of buying this potent probiotic https://www.elixa-probiotic.com/ one package contains 3 trillion good bacteria and I was thinking of buying 16 of them making 48 trillion all together of probiotics, then taking all them together same day to reset my gut. Does the gut really have 100 trillion of bacteria? And how much of that is good and bad? I supposed there is more good than bad bacteria. How did they figure out it is 100 trillion and can in the case of gut dysfunction you have more bacteria? or do you have the same just less of good ones and more bad ones? Is this enough to really shake my gut flora quickly? I believe when people use low dosage IE 10 trillion etc is just still too little... and is easily overpowered but when you have half of (that of your gut or more probiotic than exist  bad in the gut) good probiotics + your own good bacteria against the bad bacteria which I think makes up 30 percent or 30 trillion in a normal gut then you have something.

Edited by farshad, 04 February 2020 - 08:11 PM.

[zorba990]

Those are enteric capsules. Do not do this. You may end up with some of them stuck where you do not want them. At least tell the manufacturer what you plan to do first.
You have been warned.

[kurdishfella]

Those are enteric capsules. 

 

so if it's not broken done by stomach acid then where? I have taken them before but in much lower dosage and I was fine.

Edited by farshad, 05 February 2020 - 08:05 AM.

[sthira]

Why not eat more fresh vegetables and fruits instead? Don’t these natural foods also have trillions of friendly bacteria for your gut, and with the added advantages that you may eat them in tasty combinations that are healthy?

[ibtisam_midlet]

so if it's not broken done by stomach acid then where? I have taken them before but in much lower dosage and I was fine.

 

just upper the dose slowly.

[kurdishfella]

Why not eat more fresh vegetables and fruits instead? Don’t these natural foods also have trillions of friendly bacteria for your gut, and with the added advantages that you may eat them in tasty combinations that are healthy?

fruits have sugar which is counterproductive and i dont know how much good bacteria veggies really have with all the soil and how the food is manufactured who really knows, they are probably deprived just like they are with vitamins and i doubt they contain any significant amount of probiotic to make a difference.

[William Sterog]

Please, document this entire process. For science.

[elc202]

Those are enteric capsules. Do not do this. You may end up with some of them stuck where you do not want them. At least tell the manufacturer what you plan to do first.
You have been warned.

 

Can explain more why enteric capsules are bad?

[zorba990]

Can explain more why enteric capsules are bad?

They could get stuck in appendix or otherwise cause an intestinal blockage.

[elixir of fortitude]

Why would you want to take so many caps at once?


 

[kurdishfella]

Why would you want to take so many caps at once?


 

I explained that in the thread last sentence. 

 

I am now thinking more along 20 packages 60 trillion probiotics but I will start off slowly with 12 trillion a day to start off and see how that goes first.

I still can not get a definitive answer to how much bacteria there is in the gut and how much of that is good or bad in a healthy person versus unhealthy. I read somewhere that the gut microbe has been miscalculated and could actually range from 30 trillion upwards 400 trillion depending on the person, but that tells me almost nothing. Also some say there is 1kg bacteria in total and others say 2kg and upwards to 4kg etc.. in the G.I tract. Not sure what to believe I guess I gotta start reading studies etc instead of articles because they all say different things.

Edited by farshad, 09 February 2020 - 12:55 PM.

[elixir of fortitude]

I explained that in the thread last sentence. 

 

I am now thinking more along 20 packages 60 trillion probiotics but I will start off slowly with 12 trillion a day to start off and see how that goes first.

I still can not get a definitive answer to how much bacteria there is in the gut and how much of that is good or bad in a healthy person versus unhealthy. I read somewhere that the gut microbe has been miscalculated and could actually range from 30 trillion upwards 400 trillion depending on the person, but that tells me almost nothing. Also some say there is 1kg bacteria in total and others say 2kg and upwards to 4kg etc.. in the G.I tract. Not sure what to believe I guess I gotta start reading studies etc instead of articles because they all say different things.

Okay, would like to see some studies about this

I'm actually interested in ordering these probiotics

Wonder if any labs have analysed the potency 

I'll order it sometime in the future and report back my experiences 

 

[Benko]

I don't know what you are treating (do you?) but treatment of gut conditions doesn't just include flora supps, but diet, sometime specialized antibiotics, or supplements to kill off overgrowth of various non-desirable gut bateria/fungi.  Perhaps you should consult a professional with experience in diagnosing/treating such things.

[2 Duckets]

I explained that in the thread last sentence.

I am now thinking more along 20 packages 60 trillion probiotics but I will start off slowly with 12 trillion a day to start off and see how that goes first.
I still can not get a definitive answer to how much bacteria there is in the gut and how much of that is good or bad in a healthy person versus unhealthy. I read somewhere that the gut microbe has been miscalculated and could actually range from 30 trillion upwards 400 trillion depending on the person, but that tells me almost nothing. Also some say there is 1kg bacteria in total and others say 2kg and upwards to 4kg etc.. in the G.I tract. Not sure what to believe I guess I gotta start reading studies etc instead of articles because they all say different things.

How is your experiment with probiotics coming?

[kurdishfella]

I just ordered 3 trillion probiotics so I cant really make a review but when I have the money to buy 60 trillion I will.

here's a answer to a question I had for the creator of this probiotic if anyone finds it helpful.

 

1) Yes, one course is 3 trillion CFU, split over 6 daily doses of 500 billion CFU.

You are correct that it seems like a small volume compared to the purported 100 trillion microbial cells in the gut. However, the reality is that 500 billion is far more lactic acid bacteria than would be present throughout the ileum and in the colon (in normal circumstances), therefore, as far as their niche is concerned it is a large amount of lactic acid bacteria to be taking relative to what is naturally present in the gut. (Also remember the mechanism behind Elixa: https://www.elixa-pr...ed-antibiotics/ )

Also, as eluded to above (re: ileum) a lot of the beneficial action takes place in the distal small intestine, where 500 billion CFU is a huge number of probiotic cells!

2) Re: number of cells in the gut:

The truth is that people have latched onto this number (100T) and just parroted it from article to article. Very little original research has been performed on getting this number and very few people have even read the original research.

In fact, it's all moot due to the following reason: A bowel movement can be 50% bacterial cells. 

The lumenal mass (stool) in the colon, therefore contributes the largest portion of the total number of bacteria in the gut. This means that the number vary hugely depending on when you last had a bowel movement or the type of diet you are on.

If you eat 'The Carnivore Diet' you would have a vastly different number than if you were a fruitarian.

In other words, it's like trying to give an estimate of how much air volume is in a person's lungs - the variance is far larger than the difference of the averages.

Giving a CFU/ml (colony forming units per millilitre) would be a better way to characterise the variation in microbial density along the GIT. Those figures are available in the literature if you do a search on Google Scholar.

3) 

 

I can't give a direct answer to this because the questions are based on a misunderstanding perpetuated by blogs online.

There is this idea of 'balance' and so on.

Well the very definition of bad and good would mean that you would always want 100% good and 0% bad.

If there were some advantage to having a certain portion of 'bad' bacteria, then, by definition, they would be good bacteria.

Here's the reality of it: forget about good and bad microbes and missing species from the gut. The aim is to remove inflammatory biofilm communities from the mucosal surface of the intestine. The fewer inflammatory microbes you have in your gut, the better. There is no element of 'balance'. You want to retain the harmless, planktonic, lumenal microbes. But there is no amount of inflammatory microbes that you want to retain except for zero.

 

Edited by kurdishfella, 24 February 2020 - 12:22 PM.

[2 Duckets]

High levels of lactic acid in the body is bad. So does this mean we shouldnt be taking lactic acid producing bacteria?

[smithx]

There's major misconception in this thread. You don't just need N number of bacteria, you need a highly diverse set of bacteria that we don't even yet know the make-up of really.

 

There are usually between 300 and 1000 or more different species of bacteria in a healthy human gut. Most of these have never even been studied in any detail. Super mega-dosing on 11 random ones that this supplement manufacturer included in their product is not likely to create a healthy intestinal environment.

 

 

[kurdishfella]

Where is the major misconception? my main goal was just to get high amount of probiotics in me that's what I said nothing more or else, didn't say anything about different types. Of course you can only fit so many different strains in a probiotic supplement in this case 14 of them but I'm sure that will still have an positive effect on your gut regardless how many different species you have living inside you, if you have excess bad ones you will still gain a lot of benefit from 1 strain (killing bad ones)  as long as it is in high amounts. I never said you don't need a diverse bacteria in your gut.

Edited by kurdishfella, 28 February 2020 - 10:21 PM.

[smithx]

According to the website it's 11 types.

 

How can you be sure it will have a positive effect on your gut? Less diverse intestinal fauna is associated with negative health conditions.

[kurdishfella]

Yes 11 I recalled 14 no idea where I got that should have checked first. What do you mean how can I be sure? I'm not I am just trying it out and it is a probiotic which are supposedly helpful. I agree with having a more diverse gut microbe is healthier so I don't understand why you keep bringing it up when I have never said anything about that. Are you implying that when I take this probiotic my gut will become less diverse? I have nothing to lose when I take it so I just try it out and see if it helps or not.

Edited by kurdishfella, 28 February 2020 - 10:31 PM.

[smithx]

If you take a megadose of 11 bacteria then yes, they could overpower some that you actually need. It is certainly not a foregone conclusion that it would be beneficial at all.

 

Is there some condition you're suffering from that you want to improve through this method?

[kurdishfella]

Why would good bacteria kill other good bacteria? never heard of that. If anything it should help other strains become more because there is less bad bacteria causing problems.

Edited by kurdishfella, 29 February 2020 - 10:38 AM.

[gamesguru]

fruits have sugar which is counterproductive

 

vegetables too man.  Some of them have sugar.  Curse those unhealthy little devils

 

I am now thinking more along 20 packages 60 trillion probiotics but I will start off slowly with 12 trillion a day

Since bacterial growth obeys a logistic model, all that will happen the next day is 90% will die off to normal levels.  You can't force a population above carrying capacity any more than you can force water up hill.

 

If you don’t have a reason to think there’s anything wrong with your digestive system, a probiotic will do nothing to help for you.  Cases include oral antiobiotic treatment, immuno-compromisations, and extreme fasting or nutrient deprivation.

 

In healthy individuals, eating normal diets, probiotics regulate themselves.  Eat a yogurt a few times a month, maybe every day after a run with oral antibiotics, but don't go off the deep end thinking it cures autism or schizophrenia.  The evidence for probiotics even on things like depression is palpably weak.

 

Now I suggest you go to a doctor and talk to him about your concerns and run it all by him, farshad, because you've been playing this game of self-diagnosis for years, spinning your wheels, and it's painfully obvious you haven't a clue

[kurdishfella]

You think you are some smart ass because you know my name? I'm not trying to hide. You said it like you want me to know that you know who I am, so funny but at the same time so annoying. Maybe on the outside for you it looks like I have no clue but I am very sure of myself. I don't need your lecturing idk why everyone keeps doing this to me. So hilarious how you say 'painfully obvious' when you are so wrong, you say it with so much confidence. It's like I'm not even allowed to talk about anything on here without someone like you having to let me know their feelings which I don't care about. Am I hurting you because I don't go to the doctor? Why do you care? You can write all the paragraphs you want it does not mean anything when you don't really know what you are talking about and it has nothing to do with what I am doing.

 

But let me tell you this, of course I am doing this because I am not a healthy average person and if the gut microbe re balances after dosing is not my what I am talking about but to kill off the excess bad bacteria, that's my theory at least. If it balances back to healthy levels after that would be nice as long as the bad bacteria ones are gone. My goal isn't to get more bacteria but just to kill the ones doing damage with high dose initially. So what post have you been reading that made you make an false statement like this? You and the other guy are making up things I never said nor is my goal. I never said I wanted to force my gut population more than it is or can be...

 

 

Since bacterial growth obeys a logistic model,

Tell that to the bad bacteria smart ass. I get narcissistic vibes from you and the other guy like those that feel like they are smarter than they really are and try to put down others and to make them look foolish.

 

 

 

If you don’t have a reason to think there’s anything wrong with your digestive system

Obviously I do otherwise I would not be doing this.

 

 

 

In healthy individuals,

Like you said you have been stalking me for years so you know or should know I am not a healthy individual. I guess you are not even allowed to discuss supplements on here or ideas on this forum because this guy says you have to go to the doctor therefor we have to remove 90% of all threads on this site because it goes against this all knowing guy rules. I know you have been waiting for a long time to make that post to get it off your chest, there you go. Even though I rarely make posts you still choose to target me like this. You are so delusional if you think you know more than me. I understand you are just looking for my attention.

Edited by kurdishfella, 29 February 2020 - 06:26 PM.