78 replies to this topic

[Gal220]

@able

 

I like to see competition, have you tried the liposomal products from quicksilver?

Edited by Gal220, 30 October 2020 - 03:40 PM.

[able]

I have tried several from quicksilver. 

 

I especially like their D3 K2 product.

 

Their NAD+ gold (is actually NMN) is ok, but cost 2-3x more than the ABN product.

 

[smithx]

A liposome is an aqueous solution surrounded by a lipid bilayer
 

A liposome has an aqueous solution core surrounded by a hydrophobic membrane, in the form of a lipid bilayer; hydrophilic solutes dissolved in the core cannot readily pass through the bilayer.

(see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liposome for more info).

 

 

This means that the NMN in the liposomes is in solution, and therefore should only last a week.

 

Without testing showing otherwise, we have to assume that this product does not contain NMN by the time you get it and use it.

 

 

[able]

hydrophilic solutes dissolved in the core cannot readily pass through the bilayer.

 

...

 

Without testing showing otherwise, we have to assume that this product does not contain NMN by the time you get it and use it.

 

 

I don't believe that applies to NAD+ or NMN, as they are most definately NOT hydrophilic.  Both dissolve in water almost instantly.

 

I don't believe it is fair for you to tell everyone here that products sold by 2 reputable companies like quicksilver and ABN are totally worthless without anything more than conjecture.

Edited by able, 30 October 2020 - 06:34 PM.

[Gal220]

Some people require more proof than others, nothing wrong with that.  

 

Personally I dont feel the difference from them like @phoebus, so its good to hear from people who can vouch for it in that way.

[CharlieG]

I have been using their liposomal NMN for a few weeks now, and I like it. My only issue is that I can't take it later in the day because it interferes with my sleep.

[TheCarbonGroup]

I agree SmithX, I tried the NAD+ based on Phoebus positive results with that product.   

 

Can anyone confirm NMN is working for them?

 

Yes, I can confirm the their LSG NMN product is working really well for me. It may be the liposomal delivery method that's key. Alive By Nature (now Alive By Science) was able to confirm with me that their liposomal NMN is over 90% stable after 3 months at room temperature.

[zorba990]

What aren't they interested in the reduced form, NADH? NAD+ is an oxidizing agent, and doesn't seem like something you would want to ingest every day, unless you want to deplete your antioxidants to achieve some other effect.

https://ntrs.nasa.go...ons/20100033641

"Stabilized NADH as a Countermeasure for Jet Lag
Current remedies for jet lag (phototherapy, melatonin, stimulant, and sedative medications) are limited in efficacy and practicality. The efficacy of a stabilized, sublingual form of reduced nicotin amide adenine dinucleotide (NADH, ENADAlert, Menuco Corp.) as a countermeasure for jet lag was examined. Because NADH increases cellular production of ATP and facilitates dopamine synthesis, it may counteract the effects of jet lag on cognitive functioning and sleepiness. Thirty-five healthy, employed subjects participated in this double-blind, placebo-controlled study. Training and baseline testing were conducted on the West Coast before subjects flew overnight to the East Coast, where they would experience a 3-hour time difference. Upon arrival, individuals were randomly assigned to receive either 20 mg of sublingual stabilized ADH (n=18) or identical placebo tablets (n=17). All participants completed computer-administered tests (including CogScreen7) to assess changes in cognitive functioning, mood, and sleepiness in the morning and afternoon. Jet lag resulted in increased sleepiness for over half the participants and deterioration of cognitive functioning for approximately one third. The morning following the flight, subjects experienced lapses of attention in addition to disruptions in working memory, divided attention, and visual perceptual speed. Individuals who received NADH performed significantly better on 5 of 8 cognitive and psychomotor test measures (P less than or equal to 0.5) and showed a trend for better performance on the other three measures (P less than or equal to .l0). Subjects also reported less sleepiness compared with those who received placebo. No adverse effects were observed with NADH treatment. Stabilized NADH significantly reduced jet lag-induced disruptions of cognitive functioning, was easily administered, and was found to have no adverse side effects."

[smithx]

I don't believe that applies to NAD+ or NMN, as they are most definately NOT hydrophilic.  Both dissolve in water almost instantly.

 

1. The entire point of a liposome is to get something into the tissues/bloodstream that would otherwise either not get in or be changed before it's absorbed.

 

And Hydrophilic MEANS something that dissolves in water.

 

2. Liposomes are droplets of water encapsulated in fat or LIPids. So the NMN is in a water solution inside of the liposome.

 

3. We already have data that NMN breaks down within a week when it's in a water solution. So there is no reason to believe that it won't break down quickly in a water solution that happens to be encapsulated in fats (in a liposomal preparation). 

 

4. It's up to the vendor to validate their product and delivery mechanism. What would be required is three major things:

• A test showing blood levels of NMN after using the product (pharmacokinetics)
• A test showing shelf life (how much NMN is left after different periods of time)
• For completeness, another test showing blood levels of NMN using a product that is at the end of its stated shelf life (whatever that is), proving that it still is working.

 

Without any of that data, and WITH data that shows that NMN in solution doesn't last very long, there's actually no reason to believe that this product actually has any NMN left in it when you get it, or after a few weeks or months. There's also no reason to believe that it works better, as well, or at all, as compared with any other NMN formulation.

 

The onus is on them to do these tests and provide the data. They seem to be doing quite well commercially so it should be a very small percentage of their profits to do the testing required to show that their products are really doing what they say. If they don't do these tests, there's even more reason to believe that they know they wouldn't pass them.

 

By the way, I say this while in my mouth at this very moment, dissolving under my tongue, is an NMN tablet from this same manufacturer. It's not that I have it in for them somehow, it's that they are selling one set of products that on the surface sound attractive but actually may be completely useless.

 

 

 

Edited by smithx, 31 October 2020 - 09:06 PM.

[able]

 they are selling one set of products that on the surface sound attractive but actually may be completely useless.

 

 

You just described 99% or more of vitamins and supplements sold. They are not regulated by the FDA, and few, if any, perform the testing you say this mfg should be doing.

 

They are not sold by prescription or patent, so have no incentive to perform tests that others can then use. On the plus side, the cost is maybe 10% or less than prescription or patented products.

 

For that matter, there is NO testing to show any NMN is effective in humans. It is pretty much all conjecture, isn't it?

Edited by able, 31 October 2020 - 09:21 PM.

[able]

I just recalled reading something maybe 6 months ago about Dr Shade doing some research on his liposomal NAD+ with James Clement, that was supposed to publish in December. 

 

Of course that was pre covid so probably long delayed.  Sorry, can't recall where that was.

 

But if you are interested in finding out if liposomal NMN works, you might google or check with him as Dr Shade seems to be the expert in liposomes for vitamins and supplements.

[able]

I'm not sure if this is the best place to post this, but I see Alivebyscience now has a few skin care products that also use Liposomal NMN.  One also has liposomal NAD+ and NR!

 

Anyone tried these yet?  Looking for feedback.  Thanks!

 

 

Might not get any response if buried in this thread.  Maybe post your question in a new thread?

[smithx]

I'm not sure if this is the best place to post this, but I see Alivebyscience now has a few skin care products that also use Liposomal NMN.  One also has liposomal NAD+ and NR!

 

Anyone tried these yet?  Looking for feedback.  Thanks!

 

There's no reason to believe that these liposomal products are good, and there is reason to believe that they may not contain much NMN because the NMN is held in an aqueous solution and in this form is known to last only a week. Have not researched NAD+ and NR in solution but often compounds in solution last a much shorter time than they do when in a dry. solid form.

 

See above.

[Amira L.]

I've been using their LSG NMN for a month and was about to reorder but was concerned if the NMN is stable in liposomes due to the talk here.  

 

I contacted the company by email and was referred to Monica for further explanation.  She sent me this email that satisfies my concerns - your mileage may vary.

 

"Thank you for your interest in our Liposomal products.

 

You are correct that NMN starts to degrade in water after a week, which is why we can not produce a product with NMN in water.

 

In all of our liposomal products, we use sunflower lecithin, which is a type of phospholipid that is amphipathic, meaning it has both hydrophobic and hydrophilic groups.  When mixed with NMN and agitated at a specific temperature, the lecithin forms very small liposomes that enclose the NMN in the hydrophilic center, with the hydrophobic portion of the molecule facing outwards. 

 

The NMN is effectively cocooned by itself inside the liposome, and protected from air or water. 

 

These liposomes are then mixed with other ingredients, including water, to produce our LSG NMN. But the NMN remains safe inside the liposomes.  It is never in direct contact with water, and is actually more stable than in a powder or crystalline form exposed to the air.  

 

Quality assurance testing over 6 month during r&d testing confirmed the liposomes remain stable at room temperature and the same quantity of NMN remained as when first produced.  We will be posting results from similar stability testing on our finished product over the next few months.

 

Below is a bit about phospholipids that may help. Please let us know if you have any more questions.

 

 

https://courses.lume.../phospholipids/

"

 

[Mind]

Just a reminder that there is a forum subsection for discussing various commercial products and services. The Retailer/Product discussion forum is meant for users/members of this forum to discuss such topics/products, NOT for businesses to spam the forum.

 

The hope is that discussions about products and services can remain mostly separate from the science behind the supplements/treatments. This is difficult to do, but you can help. If you have a question about a specific product, you can post it in the Retailer/Product discussion forum, and then use crosslinks to inform other forum users that there is another discussion about the product which is separate from the more scientific discussion.

 

Any users/members secretly doing marketing in the open forums will face temporary suspension.

[Linux]

Sinclair has made millions by selling reservatrol, and NMN, and Brenner is a hired gun for NR.  

 

David Sinclair doesn´t sell any resveratrol or NMN products. So he hasn´t gotten a dollar off of that. He IS trying to develop NMN derivatives as pharmaceutical drugs and he owns a NR-patent that Elysium license and he has said that if he gets anything from that patent he will donate it to research.

 

I´m sure Sinclair has earned millions from his many companies and patents. But no, he doesn´t sell any supplements like you claim.

[Gal220]

Yes, I can confirm the their LSG NMN product is working really well for me. It may be the liposomal delivery method that's key. Alive By Nature (now Alive By Science) was able to confirm with me that their liposomal NMN is over 90% stable after 3 months at room temperature.

 

Thanks for the reply, you were taking NAD+ with good results?  What made you switch up, or just experimenting?

[smithx]

Quality assurance testing over 6 month during r&d testing confirmed the liposomes remain stable at room temperature and the same quantity of NMN remained as when first produced.  We will be posting results from similar stability testing on our finished product over the next few months.

 

This is good information and I will believe in it more when they actually post the results.
 

When I talked with their chat support they had zero data and nothing to say about having done any testing at all to show that the NMN didn't degrade in the liposomes. It may have just been someone who was uninformed.

 

Not sure why they haven't published it if they did do a study though.

[Gal220]

I been taking ABS NAD+ liposomal with Resveratrol.

 

Normally I down a quercetin/bromelain(dr.best) + quicksilver nano resveratrol first, then do the sublingual.gel.

 

Thomas levy notes that liposomes give nutrients easy access to cells. 

 

This seems like the best product for that, anyone else have some thoughts on the best NAD+ regimen?  Are people doing it 3 or 4 days a week?

 

Supposedly the quercetin helps recycle resveratrol, its included in Thornes NAD+ formula.

 

Edited by Gal220, 22 April 2021 - 06:06 AM.