914 replies to this topic

[adamh]

For those who chose to believe the communist chinese government, who trust their figures and don't think they lie to us, here are some articles written by those who have knowledge

 

https://www.5newsonl...e6-36dc6ead7e00

 

"Arkansas Senator Tom Cotton is claiming that China “continues to lie” about the extent of the coronavirus outbreak in the country and that it won’t allow experts from the CDC and WHO to “observe and assist.”

 

https://newrightnetw...ronavirus.html/

 

"The coronavirus rages on in China and is quickly spreading throughout the world. The Chinese government would have us believe that they have things under control. Additionally, much of the current medical data that the CDC and WHO use to formulate a plan to combat the coronavirus comes solely from the Chinese government. The real question that many throughout the medical and scientific community are asking is: should we believe their numbers? History says no."

 

https://noqreport.co...s-hits-the-u-s/

 

"China’s government is proud and loathes signs of weakness. They are also in a country that relies more on exports and travel than just about any nation in the world. Add in the fact that they have been secretive and have demonstrated a willingness to lie about internal affairs. This is a combination for disaster when it comes to potential large-scale epidemics like the coronavirus."

 

https://www.zerohedg...bout-everything

 

"In what may come as a shocking surprise to exactly nobody, the next great discovery as more and more layers of the global ponzi onion are exposed, is that China was, in fact, lying about everything. Yes, we know, stunning."

[Hip]

For those who chose to believe the communist chinese government, who trust their figures and don't think they lie to us, here are some articles written by those who have knowledge

 

Do you have any articles from major reliable news sources? 

[adamh]

Do you have any articles from major reliable news sources? 

 

Since you pick and choose who you consider reliable, how did you decide china was reliable about internal affairs? I gave several sources, who and cdc get their figures from china, so it all goes back to them since there are no sources of official info besides chinese government.

 

I fully understand the need for reassurance and what china puts out is intended to reassure. They want the world to think they have it under control and the danger is passing. They want to look competent and on top of things. Besides their long history of lying to their own people as well as to the world at large, there is a lot of pride at stake since they don't want to look criminally incompetent in handling this virus. Thus they have a huge incentive to lie. Those who openly reported that things were much worse have suddenly vanished.

 

What evidence do we have to the contrary? Besides the first hand accounts we also have videos of a situation in chaos, people welded into their homes and buildings, videos of bodies lying in the streets, huge flocks of vultures flying into the cities eating bodies, etc. 

 

Ordering 40 very large incinerators does not sound suspicious? If it was for an ordinary and ongoing situation why order them now? Why are the crematoria working 24/7 according to many reports? There are reports of high sulfer smoke emmissions, sulfer is found in the body bags.

 

Besides that, the figures from the rest of china as well as other parts of the world are very preliminary. If there are constantly new cases then the number of dead will not be indicative of the true rate simply because it does not kill instantly rather it takes a few weeks or perhaps a couple months or more before they recover or die. The first few who got it and passed it on to hundreds of others will be among the first to die while the newer cases have shown symptoms but have not had time enough to reach end stage

 

I too would like to believe its not much worse than the flu and the death rate is low but evidence indicates it is worse. How much worse we will find out soon enough

[Hip]

Since you pick and choose who you consider reliable, how did you decide china was reliable about internal affairs?

 

Because the WHO praised China for being open and forthcoming with the information about this outbreak, and the WHO is a reliable source. The WHO have said nothing about China covering up or manipulating data, and they would be the first to say so if China did. 

 

So unless you can provide evidence that China are covering up info, then it is only Internet hearsay and speculation which says that they are. 

 

 

 

They want the world to think they have it under control and the danger is passing. They want to look competent and on top of things

 

You are stating this as if it were a fact. But it's just your speculation and opinion, and possible the opinion or speculation of others too.

 

It's important to observe the difference between mere opinion and established fact. 

 

To give an opinion is fine, but it's best to preface statements with phases like "I think that ..." or "In my opinion ..." to make it clear that your statement is speculation, not fact.  

 

 

 

 

What evidence do we have to the contrary?

 

Right, so in your way of thinking, if we have no evidence, you consider that a good opportunity to make up your own imaginative story?

 

 

 

Ordering 40 very large incinerators does not sound suspicious?

 

Not in the slightest if you have a lot of contaminated stuff to burn. As was pointed out above (are you reading this thread?).

Edited by Hip, 22 February 2020 - 09:54 PM.

[Mind]

Might as well get ready for a lot of unsuccessful quarantine actions in the U.S. as well. It is happening now in Japan, South Korea, Iran, and Italy. Might as well prepare for people freaking out over the "flu", shut down of economic activity, shortages of food, medical supplies, supplements, etc...

 

I know, you are asking....what else can be done?

 

How about NOT shutting everything down in a quixotic attempt to slow the spread and focus on treatment for vulnerable populations (like the elderly or other immune-compromised individuals).

 

Hysteria prevents use of stop-gap medical facilities and the virus isn't even spreading in the U.S. yet.

[Dorian Grey]

Might as well get ready for a lot of unsuccessful quarantine actions in the U.S. as well. It is happening now in Japan, South Korea, Iran, and Italy. Might as well prepare for people freaking out over the "flu", shut down of economic activity, shortages of food, medical supplies, supplements, etc...

 

I know, you are asking....what else can be done?

 

How about NOT shutting everything down in a quixotic attempt to slow the spread and focus on treatment for vulnerable populations (like the elderly or other immune-compromised individuals).

 

Hysteria prevents use of stop-gap medical facilities and the virus isn't even spreading in the U.S. yet.

 

The Diamond Princess evacuees are pretty high risk for contagion.  Don't know if the Fairview/Costa Mesa facility is up to speed with biohazard supply and disposal and isolation environment rooms.  

 

Wouldn't want to be a nurse (or even housekeeper) there and go home to my kids every night unless proper biohazard protocols were being used.  That's the biggest problem with this bug.  Too many potential super-spreaders among the contacts.  The moon-suit protocols are very complex.  Not something you can learn with a quick half day inservice.  

[Hip]

How about NOT shutting everything down in a quixotic attempt to slow the spread and focus on treatment for vulnerable populations (like the elderly or other immune-compromised individuals).

 

I guess the Wuhan coronavirus will only cause a mere 10 or 20 million deaths if it is not contained, and as every obedient capitalist knows, profits are more important than human lives. So yeah, let's forget about trying to save these millions, and focus instead on ensuring the economy remains unaffected.

[BlueCloud]

I guess the Wuhan coronavirus will only cause a mere 10 or 20 million deaths if it is not contained, and as every obedient capitalist knows, profits are more important than human lives. So yeah, let's forget about trying to save these millions, and focus instead on ensuring the economy remains unaffected.

That’s not how i interpreted his post, i think he wasn’t talking about China. In situations like this, it can only get better if you obtain the cooperation of the population. Hysteria and panic (especially in western countries where the emphasis is on individualism) always leads to the opposite behavior from populations.

 

At this point, does it matter if China is lying about the numbers ? I’m sure they are trying to do the best they can, because it is in their interest, and because they know the world is watching them.

Everybody else around the world agrees that this has to be taken very seriously, at least as seriously as the previous similar epidemics. And that’s what matters. This is not your average flu, but it is not the end of the human race either. Be prepared, brace for impact, but also live your life as normally as possible. A life lived in fear isn’t a life worth living. 

Edited by BlueCloud, 23 February 2020 - 08:42 AM.

[ymc]

Might as well get ready for a lot of unsuccessful quarantine actions in the U.S. as well. It is happening now in Japan, South Korea, Iran, and Italy. Might as well prepare for people freaking out over the "flu", shut down of economic activity, shortages of food, medical supplies, supplements, etc...

 

I know, you are asking....what else can be done?

 

How about NOT shutting everything down in a quixotic attempt to slow the spread and focus on treatment for vulnerable populations (like the elderly or other immune-compromised individuals).

 

Hysteria prevents use of stop-gap medical facilities and the virus isn't even spreading in the U.S. yet.

 

 

 I think putting masks on everyone and teaching people the proper way to wash hands will slow down the spread significantly.

Also, quarantine everyone who are in close contact with coronavirus patients.

Finally, test everyone with flu-like symptoms for the coronavirus.

I believe if the three measures mentioned above can be implemented properly, coronavirus can be contained with a cost of lower economic activities.

 

By the way, death rate outside mainland China as of now is 24/2027 = 1.184%.

[Hip]

The world is facing a man made bioweapon, very likely created by china. 

 

It's not normal to see conspiracy theories at every turn. Have you ever been checked by a psychiatrist to see if you might be suffering from a touch of schizotypy, which is a personality condition in which sufferers are prone to believing in conspiracy theories?

Edited by Hip, 24 February 2020 - 08:37 PM.

[ymc]

https://www.dailymai...-Hong-Kong.html

 

The dog owned by a patient in Hong Kong is also positive for the virus. That's a pretty scary development.

 

By the way, dogs and cats also have ACE2 receptor that is about 80% similar to humans, so this is not 

an impossible development.

[xEva]

In the past week I watched  Contagion (2011) and Fatal Contact: Bird Flu in America (2006) and The Flu (2013).

Exaggerated of course, but gives you an idea what to expect.

[Hip]

In the past week I watched  Contagion (2011) and Fatal Contact: Bird Flu in America (2006) and The Flu (2013).

Exaggerated of course, but gives you an idea what to expect.

 

As long as the coronavirus outbreak does not turn into a zombie movie!

 

Bit if it does, here are some tips on dealing with zombies, from the film Shaun Of The Dead:

 

 

Nothing like a bit of humor to get you through a viral armageddon!

[kurdishfella]

A dog in Hong Kong has tested ‘weak positive’ for coronavirus

https://fortune.com/...-dog-hong-kong/

 

Great now animals can spread it too and given how popular dogs and cats are as pets in the west I conclude that everyone is screwed. I think the only thing that will stop this is a vaccine which is a year away or so. https://www.newsweek...ability-1489214

 

Also I am not a conspiracy nut but you have to be thick to the numbers the gonvernments are giving regarding how many deaths etc seeing how quickly and easily it spreads, they wanna keep the economy stable if they relived the true values everything would become chaos so I agree with them on their decision with this.

 

I am not sure how much supplements will help but I guess anything that strengthens your immune system will not hurt but I still doubt it will do much for an already healthy immune system. And in weak immune system there is underlying cause which I do not think vitamins and minerals can fix to rebalance.

Edited by kurdishfella, 28 February 2020 - 10:01 PM.

[Hip]

Also I am not a conspiracy nut but you have to be thick to the numbers the gonvernments are giving regarding how many deaths etc seeing how quickly and easily it spreads, they wanna keep the economy stable if they relived the true values everything would become chaos so I agree with them on their decision with this.

 

 

Perhaps in dodgy third world countries, with less educated populaces, but not in leading first world nations like the UK, France, and the US (although with Trump in charge, precise factual truth has taken a bit of a hit, at least as far as White House statements are concerned).

Edited by Hip, 28 February 2020 - 11:05 PM.

[kurdishfella]

Yes US the first world nation which have faked a lot of attacks to start war, that one you trust?  .. 

Like the gulf of tonkin incident which  they us gov lied about an attack n exaggerate it to try rage war. 

Regardless if you are first world or third world there are gonna be bad people in high positions and it is in their own benefit to lie .

Edited by kurdishfella, 29 February 2020 - 12:35 AM.

[pamojja]

Though one shouldn't believe everything without fact-checking (but please, not by corporation sponsored fact-checking institutions), one should at least have heard about the incredible coincitence with Event201, which played sandbox excercises in how to takle 'fake news' in times of epidemics:

 

[Hip]

Hip, shutting down differing opinions with name-calling - where we all know so little - and on account of appeal to authority, is not really helpful. Just ask yourself: Why the Chinese Government risks such an immense economic downturn, if things didn't turn out pretty terrible there? And the information about still withheld. A country which regularly faces approximately 88 100 annual influenca deaths without a sniffle?.

 

I am not shutting down differing opinions, I am robustly countering ill-founded views with the known facts. If anyone wants to argue back, and provide supporting facts for their ill-founded views, I am not stopping them.

 

If anyone says China is lying, as has been claimed on this thread, I challenge you to provide evidence for this. Because if you are stating something without reliable evidence, then by definition it is fake news. 

 

 

Whereas in the past China tried to cover up SARS, it appears they learnt from their mistakes, and so in this present COVID-19 coronavirus outbreak, they have been praised by the WHO for being forthcoming with all the necessary information. The WHO sent a delegation of scientists to China to work in close cooperation with Chinese medics, so the WHO know what they are talking about. 

[pamojja]

I am not shutting down differing opinions, I am robustly countering ill-founded views with the known facts.

 

Your 'known' facts  - without the agenda of the WHO to delay panic - is only based on appeal to authority. It completely ignores the video messagers out of Wuhan, who risked their prosecution for airing.

 

If anyone says China is lying, as has been claimed on this thread, I challenge you to provide evidence for this. Because if you are stating something without reliable evidence, then by definition it is fake news.

 

Since video messages out of Wuhan isn't giving you any doubts about the integrity of the Chinese Government, how about the detention of Uigurs? Of dissidents from Tibet? - Accoding to Event201 the definition of what is 'fake news' in an epidemic will be determined by the WHO - which has nothing do with real fact checking, but again meaningless appeal to authority.

 

The WHO sent a delegation of scientists to China to work in close cooperation with Chinese medics, so the WHO know what they are talking about. 

 

Meaningless appeal to authority again. Completely ignoring their agenda of avoiding widespread panic, which would make any situation only worse.

Edited by pamojja, 09 March 2020 - 04:00 PM.

[Hip]

Meaningless appeal to authority again.

 

If you consider the statements of medical authorities like the WHO meaningless, and you think the WHO has an "agenda", I would suggest reading up a bit more about world of science, and spend some time to understand what are reliable scientific sources, and what are considered unreliable Mickey Mouse references. 

 

Maybe you'd never heard of the WHO before this outbreak, and therefore you know nothing about this organization. But anyone who knows a bit about them will appreciate they are an organization of high integrity and high scientific standards. Unlike say President Trump, who described both climate change as well as the COVID-19 coronavirus outbreak as a "hoax".

 

 

 

Since video messages out of Wuhan isn't giving you any doubts about the integrity of the Chinese Government, how about the detention of Uigurs? Of dissidents from Tibet? - Accoding to Event201 the definition of what is 'fake news' in an epidemic will determined by the WHO - which has nothing do with real fact checking, but again meaningless appeal to authority.

 

So if you cannot win the argument at hand, your strategy is to change to a different argument, and try to win that. Otherwise known as a strawman argument. Please try to stick to the issue that we are discussing. We are discussing the transparency that the Chinese government have displayed in sharing information about the coronavirus, not the way they treat muslim communities (which although controversial has actually resulted in a dramatic reduction of terrorism in China, so it was quite a successful strategy, although undeniably harsh).

 

 

 

 

Meaningless appeal to authority again. Completely ignoring their agenda of avoiding widespread panic, which would make any situation only worse.

 

More fake news. Where is the evidence the WHO have the agenda you claim they have? You think they are lying in order to avoid spreading panic. What shred of evidence do you have for that? 

 

What someone imagines in their mind is not the same as a fact. If someone states what they imagine might be the case as an actual fact, then again by definition, it is fake news. 

 

And for anyone who is unsure about what is a fact and what is imagined in their mind, that's not a good situation to be in mentally. It is called psychosis. As I mentioned before, those with psychosis or schizotypy are prone to spreading conspiracy theories. Fortunately the courts are now taking a harsh line against fake new and conspiracy theory merchants: Alex Jones was fined $100,000 for propagating the awful Sandy Hook conspiracy theory.

Edited by Hip, 09 March 2020 - 05:32 PM.

[Hip]

I trust WHO, except for what they say about the communist Chinese response to the outbreak. Considering that information in China is very strictly controlled, I suspect WHO was allowed in, and to investigate, on the condition that they essentially praise the dictator publicly. Can't prove it, but that is how dictatorships usually work. It is something we wouldn't be able to find out until years later when someone writes a memoir, or the communist regime falls.

 

Any decent high-minded scientist holds the truth as sacred, and there's no way a high integrity international scientific organization like the WHO, which are part of the United Nations, would compromise their principles due to Chinese pressure. 

 

The United Nations remains independent of national governments, and history shows it does not bend to pressures or viewpoints of individual nations. For example, the United Nations does not succumb to American pressure over Israeli-Palestinian issues. America is still the most powerful nation on Earth, and if persuasion could alter United Nations views, the UN would have by now aligned with the US on Israeli-Palestinian issues. But they haven't.  

 

Likewise, when Bush and Blair were lying about the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and putting pressure on United Nations weapons inspectors, these inspectors did not suddenly dance to the US/UK tune, but maintained their view that there were no weapons of mass destruction. 

Edited by Hip, 09 March 2020 - 06:30 PM.

[joesixpack]

Your 'known' facts  - without the agenda of the WHO to delay panic - is only based on appeal to authority. It completely ignores the video messagers out of Wuhan, who risked their prosecution for airing.

 

 

Since video messages out of Wuhan isn't giving you any doubts about the integrity of the Chinese Government, how about the detention of Uigurs? Of dissidents from Tibet? - Accoding to Event201 the definition of what is 'fake news' in an epidemic will be determined by the WHO - which has nothing do with real fact checking, but again meaningless appeal to authority.

 

 

Meaningless appeal to authority again. Completely ignoring their agenda of avoiding widespread panic, which would make any situation only worse.

 

Well stories like this coming out of China, certainly cast some doubt on the transparency of the communist government. Remember Dr. Wi Lenliang?  One of the first whistle blowers, died. Now another person he worked with is dead.

 

Whistle blowers don't seem to do well in China, when telling the truth about this virus.

 

I consider the fact that they were punished by the government for getting the word out (read all the stories) to be evidence that the Chinese government is not being honest. And the fact that they are now dead is more than a coincidence. As far as the WHO goes, they only know what China tells them.

 

https://nypost.com/2...om-coronavirus/

 

Can't wait for the emoji's.

[Hip]

I consider the fact that they were punished by the government for getting the word out (read all the stories) to be evidence that the Chinese government is not being honest. And the fact that they are now dead is more than a coincidence. As far as the WHO goes, they only know what China tells them.

 

The Chinese government still maintain their tight control over what people can say, nobody denies that. When this doctor tried to raise the alarm, this was before it was realized that China had been hit with a seriously nasty virus. Thus as per their usual policy, the local authorities gaged the doctor. 

 

But, once the Chinese government understood this was a serious outbreak, that's when they became transparent and open, which is highly commendable, given that in all other aspects of life, the Chinese continue to keep a tight control on what people can say. 

 

Incidentally the reason China suppresses dissent and freedom of speech is because they want to preserve social harmony. The West often criticizes China for this, but the West is largely ignorant of the reasons why social harmony is so important to China.

 

 

 

And the fact that they are now dead is more than a coincidence.  

 

Uh-huh, another conspiracy theory. 

 

 

 

As far as the WHO goes, they only know what China tells them.

 

No: the WHO are in China, working with medical professionals on the ground.

 

 

Edited by Hip, 10 March 2020 - 04:27 AM.

[joesixpack]

 

The Chinese government still maintain their tight control over what people can say, nobody denies that. When this doctor tried to raise the alarm, this was before it was realized that China had been hit with a seriously nasty virus. Thus as per their usual policy, the local authorities gaged the doctor. 

 

But, once the Chinese government understood this was a serious outbreak, that's when they became transparent and open, which is highly commendable, given that in all other aspects of life, the Chinese continue to keep a tight control on what people can say. 

 

Incidentally the reason China suppresses dissent and freedom of speech is because they want to preserve social harmony. The West often criticizes China for this, but the West is largely ignorant of the reasons why social harmony is so important to China.

 

 

 

 

Uh-huh, another conspiracy theory. 

 

 

 

 

No: the WHO are in China, working with medical professionals on the ground.

 

 

 

Uh huh, take a look at this story. I think you are a shill for the Chinese government. Conspiracy my ass. And nice try to justify suppressing the Doctor that got the word out to the world.

 

But, to your credit, you gave a spirited and helpful story for the Chinese government, so that may help you when this all fails.

 

Sorry I could not be more polite, but things are getting a little dicey for political niceties.

 

You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

https://www.zerohedg...hinas-war-truth

[pamojja]

Guys take a deep breath and calm down. Name calling and all the other fallacies in discussion don't really bring us closer to the truth, and only lead to animosities. I know Hip from an other forum very well: it is just his way for feeling safe and within reason in times of panic. While others, despite what's purported, don't feel that much unease at all, and are therefore more relaxed to venture into investigation of unknowns. He is just protecting himself, not a shill. And we are no conspiracy theorists. Both are totally meaningless adhominems, and not helpful in any inquiring discussion.

Edited by pamojja, 10 March 2020 - 07:57 AM.

[pamojja]

Someone tagged my last post 'pointless' - I really don't think so. Look, Hip goes as far as threatening everything questioning what authorities say with possible punishment. That deep his need of security, that even with his otherwise sharp mind doesn't recognize, he just traded freedom of speech against his need of security.

 

That is soo relevant, because the recipe 'devide and rule' simple doesn't work if people aren't easily devided. In this case between those who out of ignorance trade a wrong sense of security with their freedom, and others in the known that the only really insecurity comes from totalitarian goverments (https://www.hawaii.e...s/POWER.ART.HTM)

 

The immense shutdown in China just doesn't make any sense to a rational being. Because of now only 3,000 deaths almost at the end of the influenza season, where they otherwise stoically stomach about 90,000 influeza deaths anually. Either the real numers are withheld (we will very soon know, with the unfolding in Italy) - or the opportunity has been taken up by many goverments, in experimenting how far their're able to cut basic human rights with the right amount of panic sowed with disinformation (Goebels once said: when people are scared, one can do anything to them). The mortality till now is just too tiny, compared to the usual flu-seasons death-toll. Or vital informations are withheld about the true extent.

 

I don't see any alternatives. By now I think so many are addicted to hand-helds, that most of them would welcome the offer of retina-displays, inplanted chips and all. We are indeed in scary times, don't let ourself be devided. Let's stay at least in dialog. This time around resistance as during the 3rd Reich wont be possible anymore due to all-pervaiding survailance, brought on by the last right amount of panic after 9/11.

Edited by pamojja, 10 March 2020 - 09:04 AM.

[BlueCloud]

. We are discussing the transparency that the Chinese government have displayed in sharing information about the coronavirus, not the way they treat muslim communities (which although controversial has actually resulted in a dramatic reduction of terrorism in China, so it was quite a successful strategy, although undeniably harsh).

 

This is so laughable and misguided, but this is not the thread to go into this , so i'll just abstain.

 

 

 

And for anyone who is unsure about what is a fact and what is imagined in their mind, that's not a good situation to be in mentally. It is called psychosis. As I mentioned before, those with psychosis or schizotypy are prone to spreading conspiracy theories. Fortunately the courts are now taking a harsh line against fake new and conspiracy theory merchants: Alex Jones was fined $100,000 for propagating the awful Sandy Hook conspiracy theory.

 

I think you are over-abusing the use of the word "psychosis" a bit much. It is NOT unreasonable to have a certain level of suspicion about the official communications of China, because it is definitely NOT a country known for transparency. Denying this, when we have had mountains and mountains of absolutely undeniable evidence for years and years about their lack of transparency is either : 

1- Working officialy for China's government.

2- Psychosis ( per your definition)

 

Now, that being said, this does NOT mean that things iare binary : (China is 100% transparent VS China is 100% not transparent). I think they are being mostly transparent in this case, because the situation is very serious, and their future economical relationship with the western and asian countries that manufacture there depends on how reliable China is perceived as a partner in handling the situation and collaborating with the WHO. Big companies like Apple and others are already looking into diminishing their dependence on China and prospecting India and Brazil as partial replacement. China knows this , and that it is in their interest that they act as transparently as possible.

The reason why we can trust mostly but not completely China is their past record. It would be very naive to think that a system so completely and so profoundly imbued with non-transparency can switch overnight to complete transparency.

 

So overall, it looks like China is really doing what they can to handle this, and that a susbtantial part of their official numbers could be trusted, but there might exist various areas where we can be reasonably suspicious about their communications ( and suspicious doesn't mean immediately negating the information, it just means being careful about it's apparent veracity ).

Edited by BlueCloud, 10 March 2020 - 10:53 AM.

[Hip]

Sorry I could not be more polite,

 
Well if we are abandoning politeness, then let me say I think you do a poor job of following and understanding the news. Maybe that's down to watching dubious media channels like Fox News, or reading too many alt. news or conspiracy theory rags. I'd suggest tuning into TV channels that provide more in-depth analysis of the news. I find the BBC, France24 (English version), and occasionally CNN are reasonably good channels for in-depth news analysis.

 

CNN I used to watch a lot, but I find it has gone downhill a bit recently, because everything is just Trump-bashing on CNN. Sure, Trump needs to be criticized, but let's have some other news on CNN, not just always anti-Trump stuff.

 

 

 

It is NOT unreasonable to have a certain level of suspicion about the official communications of China, because it is definitely NOT a country known for transparency.

 
Repeating what I said earlier: we know that China is not known for transparency, and are constantly criticized by the West for this lack of openness. This is not in dispute.

But rather refreshingly in this instance, the order has come from the top, from President Xi Jinping, that everyone in China MUST be open about matter relating to the coronavirus. Seasoned journalists who work in China are amazed that on this particular matter, doctors, scientists as well as the general public are being given much more freedom of expression. 
 
Anyone who is not aware of this order from President Xi Jinping that everyone in China can talk freely on COVID-19 coronavirus matters must be watching second-rate news channels.
 
 

 

Now, that being said, this does NOT mean that things iare binary : (China is 100% transparent VS China is 100% not transparent). I think they are being mostly transparent in this case, because the situation is very serious, and their future economical relationship with the western and asian countries that manufacture there depends on how reliable China is perceived as a partner in handling the situation and collaborating with the WHO.

Precisely. This is what I have been trying to say. I am glad someone shows some understanding. 

 

As I said, the order came from President Xi Jinping that everyone should be transparent about coronavirus.

 

 

. That deep his need of security, that even with his otherwise sharp mind doesn't recognize, he just traded freedom of speech against his need of security.

That attempt of psychological analysis is off the mark. 
 
If you want to know where I am coming from, well what actually concerns me is how lazy thinking and uniformed opinion group together to create a pool of misinformation and fake news online. Misinformation is an increasing problem in Western societies which offer freedom of speech to the populace. Western freedom of speech was not intended to provide the uniformed and the halfwits with a soap box.
 
In case you are not aware, the issues of misinformation and fake news online are being greatly discussed in recent years, because it is realized they cause major problems. We would not allow amateurs to perform brain surgery, nor allow people that cannot drive onto the roads; yet we let the uniformed in their millions free rein online. That's bound to cause calamity. 
 
I certainly do not believe in a suppression of expression; but I don't think any society should be run as an "idiocracy" (if anyone saw that stupid movie), so we need to get the uniformed off the Internet.
 
 

 

The immense shutdown in China just doesn't make any sense to a rational being.

 
Really? Well the Italian government has just ordered a similar shutdown after nearly 400 coronavirus deaths in their country. The UK has also said it will do this if and when necessary. So either all these national leaders and their experts scientific and medical advisers are thinking irrationally. Or those on this thread are.

 

 

Edited by Hip, 10 March 2020 - 02:34 PM.

[Hip]

You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

https://www.zerohedg...hinas-war-truth

 

I would suggest avoiding conspiracy theory rags; they are toxic for the brain.

 

Twitter bans Zero Hedge after it posts coronavirus conspiracy theory

[pamojja]

That attempt of psychological analysis is off the mark.

 
If someone is so off the mark to start even worse pathologization of differring opinions - you deserve nothing less. With such wild accusations you are temporary not fit for a honest exchange.

 

So either all these national leaders and their experts scientific and medical advisers are thinking irrationally.

 

Time will tell. Either these meassures are completely too late to contain anything (see my former post of trying to get tested to prevent a spread through me), or it in the end the numbers will show it was again one of those lame ducks not even comming close to the mortality of the yearly flu.

 

Most experts I saw now interviewed don't think it still can be contained anymore, and a substancial part of the population will be infected sooner or later.

Edited by pamojja, 10 March 2020 - 02:51 PM.