914 replies to this topic

[geo12the]

OMG look at this, this and this! People being killed for asking people to wear masks! Sucker Carlson talked about it on his show last night! Why aren't more people angry!  

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Re: geo12the's post #810:

 

Mind wrote, in post #799:

 

"I am angry because "regular people" are being arrested, fined, jailed, beaten, etc... for not following COVID protocols, while rich elites, politicians, and bureaucrats violate the rules with impunity and face no consequences."

 

What part of Mind's statement do you consider to be false? For example, Mind claimed that he was angry. Is that false? He made no claim about the possible anger of others, for example (not that you have claimed such). You have been provided with examples of the abuse (arrests, fines, etc.) that Mind refers to.  

 

At what point did Mind make assumptions about the frequency of enforcement of rules resulting in the abuse (arrests, fines, etc.) he mentions as you have done with your "isolated examples" claim: "There are isolated examples of stupidity in enforcing these rules".

 

geo12the: "Bottom line is there is not an epidemic of arrests we need to be "angry" about. "

 

At what point did Mind claim that the arrests are "epidemic"--Something that you apparently are attributing to him, and something that he clearly didn't claim. 

 

In sum, you have been triggered. And, being triggered, you responded to Mind's post without thinking. When presented with legitimate examples of Mind's claims about abuse (arrests, fines, etc.) you confabulate what Mind wrote with your own distorted interpretation of what you presumedly had read. You have intimated false attribution, made banal unsubstantiated claims (provided upon request) and have displayed a total lack of reasoning ability. Well done.

 

 

(This message was brought to you by Deer Leader who says: "Never swim in a stagnant-water pond, as it may contain naegleria fowleri which could rot your brain if it flies up your nose like a Blue Bird")

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 30 June 2021 - 05:37 PM.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Re post #811

 

"Why aren't more people angry! "

 

Your asseveration implies that you know that a certain number of people are angry. Please provide a citation that quantifies the number of "angry people" known to you, and then give the reasoning by which you apparently feel that there should be more than the number specified in your citation. TIA

 

Then, consider the possible implications of mask mandates.

 

 

(This message brought to ewe by Deer Leader who cannot catch CWD)

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 30 June 2021 - 05:50 PM.

[geo12the]

 

Re: geo12the's post #810:

 

Mind wrote, in post #799:

 

"I am angry because "regular people" are being arrested, fined, jailed, beaten, etc... for not following COVID protocols, while rich elites, politicians, and bureaucrats violate the rules with impunity and face no consequences."

 

 

 

Mind specifically asked a question: "Why should people be NOT be angry?" He asked a question and I answered and gave my perspective: the answer to his question is people should not be angry because it's ginned up outrage. 

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Post #814:

"Mind specifically asked a question: "Why should people be NOT be angry?" He asked a question and I answered and gave my perspective: the answer to his question is people should not be angry because it's ginned up outrage."

 

Mind mentioned several factors which contributed to his anger. You have been given examples which demonstrate that those factors which he mentioned are real, and that they are not “ginned up”. He made a personal declaration concerning his anger. He also implied, by way of a later question, that other people are angry too.

 

If your use of “ginned up outrage” is meant to refer to the “outrage” felt by people, manifesting itself in anger, rather than supposed ginned-up-factors that contribute to outrage in people, and if you are also considering that Mind’s anger, equates to outrage, then, again, you’re wrong about Mind’s anger (or outrage as you might be characterizing it) as being “ginned up”. Mind has formally stated that he was angry, and on that basis his “anger” or “outrage” is real, not ginned up.

 

The “anger” or “outrage” that other people may be experiencing is unknown one way or the other until expressed. You haven’t provided demonstrative evidence of other people's supposed anger as being a result of “ginned up outrage” and therefore cannot use “people should not be angry” to suggest that other people are angry, in actuality, and do experience outrage over the matter. If you want to equate people’s anger as actually being “ginned up outrage”, rather than actual outrage, then you will have to provide evidence for such a claim.

 

Your post #803 contains a quote from Mind that includes the declaration: “I am angry because "regular people" are being arrested, fined, jailed, beaten, etc... for not following COVID protocols, while rich elites, politicians, and bureaucrats violate the rules with impunity and face no consequences.” As well as the question: "Why should people be NOT be angry?"

 

Your two sentence reply to Mind’s post, which contains his above declaration and question, was: “"Who the hell are the regular people being arrested? Again crying wolf." It is ineluctably clear from your reply that your response deals with his declaration, which includes the language “..."regular people" are being arrested”, (with similar language in your reply), and not to his question: “Why should people be NOT be angry?", as you claim to have been answering (post #814)

 

 

 

(This message is brought to you by Deer Leader, who really appreciates his fawning acolytes and that implications aren't claims)

 

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 01 July 2021 - 02:12 AM.

[geo12the]

Post #814:

: “I am angry because "regular people" are being arrested, fined, jailed, beaten, etc... for not following COVID protocols, while rich elites, politicians, and bureaucrats violate the rules with impunity and face no consequences.” As well as the question: "Why should people be NOT be angry?"

 

Your two sentence reply to Mind’s post, which contains his above declaration and question, was: “"Who the hell are the regular people being arrested? Again crying wolf." It is ineluctably clear from your reply that your response deals with his declaration, which includes the language “..."regular people" are being arrested”, (with similar language in your reply), and not to his question: “Why should people be NOT be angry?", as you claim to have been answering (post #814)

 

 

 

(This message is brought to you by Deer Leader, who really appreciates his fawning acolytes and that implications aren't claims)

 

Are there isolated instances of regular people being jailed or whatever for not following COVID protocols?  Yes. But my point is, Is this the reality? Yes, there are isolated instances but is it widespread enough that people should be angry? There are also isolated instances of people killing people who ask them to wear a mask. The reality is that there is not mass incarceration of people for not following COVID protocols. THAT is why I used the term ginned-up. If Mind or whomever is angry about the isolated instances that is their right. But if Mind or whoever asks  "Why should people be NOT be angry?" it's also my right to answer honestly. If you folks don't want to hear opinions different than your own then what is the point of posting on this forum? Too many people these days live in social media filter bubbles where they only hear views that reinforce their own. Maybe hearing a dissenting opinion is not such a bad thing? YOUR screen name is Devil's advocate for God's sakes and you are giving me grief for playing Devils' advocate?  Come on.

Edited by geo12the, 01 July 2021 - 03:51 AM.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

In post #816, geo12the writes:

 

"Are there isolated instances of regular people being jailed or whatever for not following COVID protocols?  Yes. But my point is, Is this the reality?".

 

If occurences of an action or actions are known to happen, then yes, that's the reality, as you essentially point out in your subsequent sentence:

 

 "Yes, there are isolated instances but is it widespread enough that people should be angry?"

 

The matter of how widespread the arrests, fines, jailings and beatings are is immaterial to Minds point that there is an apparent double standard between "regular people" and the rich, elites, polititians and bureaucrats.

 

And yes, of course people should be angry. There shouldn't be some sorites threshold (think paradox of the heap) for determing when the conditions Mind mentions become worthy of righteous anger. It would be akin to saying that there should be some arbitrary level of toleration below which racism is acceptable and not worthy of outrage.

 

"The reality is that there is not mass incarceration of people for not following COVID protocols. THAT is why I used the term ginned-up."

 

Mind neither stated nor implied that there were mass incarcerations. You have constructed a straw man of "mass incarcerations"  apparently so that you, as you admit, could rationalize your use of "ginned up". 

 

I'm open to hearing all opinions. And, if I adopt a contrary stance I try to insure that my positions and opinions are logical, coherent, and internally consistent.

 

 

(This message is brought to you by Deer Leader, and by my principal client who suggests that people try to avoid being defenestrated through the Overton Window)

[zorba990]

All will be protected, just re-write the historical records....

06272021 WHO IS DR ROBERT MALONE - WHATS HER FACE

https://www.bitchute...o/UfFOTCxRORsp/

Historical documents, indeed...
https://www.youtube....h?v=lLZQz26-kms

Edited by zorba990, 04 July 2021 - 02:48 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Mind specifically asked a question: "Why should people be NOT be angry?" He asked a question and I answered and gave my perspective: the answer to his question is people should not be angry because it's ginned up outrage. 

 

Seeing the rank hypocrisy of the political class telling "the masses" one thing and then doing something entirely different themselves isn't "ginned up outrage".  It is a very natural and organic outrage that is common when people see that sort of hypocrisy from their political leaders. In fact it is an entirely healthy outrage.

 

"Do as I say, not as I do" has never generated kind feelings towards those in power. Ever.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mind]

Many people have been talking about the "end game" of the authoritarian pandemic measures and now it has arrived. Dystopian tyranny returns to the developed world. What could possibly go wrong when people no longer have any rights or freedoms?

 

https://www.armstron...future-for-all/

[pamojja]

Holy Moses, Bill Sardi beat us all with the most alternative of views. He has the guts to suggest covid-19 is just the big masquerader of disease: Beriberi!

https://knowledgeofh...ients-deformed/

At least now I have a good retrospective reason for the 1kg of thiamin powder I bought in 2019 and I'm avidly using every day ;-)

[zorba990]

A million dollars. Oops I mean a million vaccines....

[Mind]

One reason why "censored discussions" continue to gain steam, is that the world-leading doctors, scientists, virologists, and epidemiologists that who are putting their careers on the line, are willing to give detailed reasoned explanations of their views. Mercola interviews Dr. Zelenko who lists reasons why he is wary of the vaccine push.

 

One might find errors in Dr. Zelenko's analysis. One might not like Dr. Zelenko's religiosity. Still, he at least puts the time in to explain his viewpoint in detail.

 

It is much better than government bureaucrats (mostly not practicing researchers or doctors) saying "shut up and follow orders, don't discuss the science!"

 

It is much better than the unnerving censorship from social media and national news outlets in the U.S.

 

 

Seriously think about what this means for a moment. This is telling whistleblowers and investigative journalists that no matter how hard they work or how much danger they put themselves in to get critical information out to the public, the public will never find out about it, because all mainstream news outlets will unify around blacking it out.

 

[Hip]

Seeing the rank hypocrisy of the political class telling "the masses" one thing and then doing something entirely different themselves isn't "ginned up outrage".  It is a very natural and organic outrage that is common when people see that sort of hypocrisy from their political leaders. In fact it is an entirely healthy outrage.

 

"Do as I say, not as I do" has never generated kind feelings towards those in power. Ever.

 

Why is that hypocrisy? 

 

Government makes driving laws, like speed limits and parking regulations, but all of us flout those laws from time to time, regular members of the public and politicians included. 

 

When a politician is caught speeding, we do not say "what hypocrisy" do we? So why then with breaking social distancing or mask wearing?

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Re: post#824

 

An unequal denouement of the hypocracy, Hip.

 

An elite:

 

Bruce Springsteen.

 

"The officer says Bruce smelled strongly of alcohol and his eyes were glassy, so he put the Boss through a field sobriety test, during which he was swaying, and took 45 steps when he was only asked to take 18. Cops say he refused to submit to a breathalyzer test."

 

BAC at 0.02, uh, I think not. A BAC of 0.20 sounds more reasonable.

Note the empty bottle of Tequila.

 

Major charges dropped.

 

 

A politician:

 

Gavin Newsom , governor of California.  No Jail, no fines.

 

A connected person:

 

Brother of Joe Biden. No Jail, no fines

 

An ordinary person:

 

Pizzaria owner Jailed, fined.

 

 

There are some of the end results of hypocracy. The elites probably know they'll get off if caught, be it for COVID-19 infractions or not. Not so for the little guy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 07 July 2021 - 11:39 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Why is that hypocrisy? 

 

Government makes driving laws, like speed limits and parking regulations, but all of us flout those laws from time to time, regular members of the public and politicians included. 

 

When a politician is caught speeding, we do not say "what hypocrisy" do we? So why then with breaking social distancing or mask wearing?

 

So you really don't see any difference between a politician partying with his friends at an expensive restaurant or taking a trip to Cancun whilst locking down society and shutting down the economy for a year or so and a politician going 10 mph over the speed limit?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hip]

So you really don't see any difference between a politician partying with his friends at an expensive restaurant or taking a trip to Cancun whilst locking down society and shutting down the economy for a year or so and a politician going 10 mph over the speed limit?

 

I have seen many ordinary people totally flouting the lockdown rules. In the middle of lockdown in London, I saw 200 people gathering for a wedding right next to where I live, with lots of fireworks. In the news I see stories of illegal rave parties taking place with hundreds of people present, which police close down.

 

It is clear that the ordinary general public are flouting lockdown just as much as the rich and privileged. 

 

 

However, if people follow lockdown rules say 90% of the time, and I think they are, then lockdown still has a major impact.

 

And that's why laws work: laws work not because everyone obeys them all of the time, but because most people obey them most of the time, so that the law has a large impact. 

 

I have been extremely scrupulous with following lockdown, doing even more than is legally required. But on one or two occasions, I broke the law, for the sake seeing family. But I would say I followed the rules 99.9% of the time, and from a scientific perspective, that is what is important: your overall behavior, not whether you may have broken the law once or twice, just to have some respite from lockdown.

 

If you break a law and you are caught, though, there must be a punishment, otherwise nobody would follow the law. But it should be the same punishment for all.

Edited by Hip, 08 July 2021 - 01:26 PM.

[Mind]

John Kerry breaking the TSA rules at the airport. No Mask.

 

A whole plane full of politicians with no masks.

 

They are obviously not the least bit concerned about COVID, or the laws and regulations. They should be fined and/or arrested like so many regular people have been around the world over the past 18 months.

 

 

[geo12the]

John Kerry breaking the TSA rules at the airport. No Mask.

 

A whole plane full of politicians with no masks.

 

They are obviously not the least bit concerned about COVID, or the laws and regulations. They should be fined and/or arrested like so many regular people have been around the world over the past 18 months.

 

I will just say it's not exactly a great revelation that the privileged in society get away with stuff common folks can't. We did have president Bone spurs after all who got a deferment from the Vietnam war while others risked their lives for their country. And big corporations like Bonespurs' business get away with not paying taxes while small businesses pay their fair share -disclaimer IRS threatened to Audit one of my small businesses for a mistake they made and every year send me threatening letters that I did not pay taxes (I always do!). So yes politicians get away with stuff others cant and that should make people mad but its old news. 

 

And with vaccinations masks are on their way out anyway so Kerry not wearing a mask at TSA is not earth-shattering though it is being used to stir outrage of the right wing base who need something to get their blood boiling.  

[Advocatus Diaboli]

In the twitter exchange that Mind links to in post #828, one of the tweeters notes that the picture of Kerry shows him in a body scanner, and the tweeter points out:  "It's a body scanner and you have to remove all metal b4 entry, that includes surgical face masks as they contain a metal strip..."

 

President Bone spurs would be remiss as a businessman if he didn't take advantage of provisions legally offered in the tax code which allow for the avoidance of paying some taxes for his businesses. Don't you, geo12the, take advantage of any tax "loopholes" that apply to your small businesses? If some people, or coroporations, pay little or no taxes it isn't their fault. It's the fault of the politicians who make the tax code provisions in compliance with the wishes of lobbyists who want to grant certain parties special treatment. As an interesting fact, demonstrating what a penurious person he is, president Bone spurs didn't keep his $400,000 a year salary, but donated it to various federal agencies..

 

I don't know if president Bone spurs actually had bone spurs, but if he did, and, if at the time, having bone spurs was a basis for deferment, then he committed no crime by accepting the deferment. If he didn't have bone spurs then the burden of proof would be on someone to show that he didn't. The ability to make long marches is a prerequisite for the safety of the individual soldier as well as for the soldiers who troop together as a unit. It would be a bad idea to have a person with bone spurs in a unit that he could potentially slow down, and possibly put at risk, by not being able to keep up with his fellows.

 

 

(Deer Leader says: "The left hates the right with a visceral passion. While the right merely wonders why the left lacks even a rudimentary grasp of logic, or a modicum of the ability to reason, as well as why they exhibit an uncanny knack for getting what should be easily understandable, fundamental concepts, so utterly wrong.")

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Here's a perfect example of "after this, therefore because of it" (post hoc, ergo propter hoc) scare headline.

 

24-year-old didn't get vaccinated for COVID-19. Then, had to have a double lung transplant.

 

That'll put the fear of god in unvaccinated young people!

 

PS--Just ignore the part of the article where his mom is quoted: "His mother said Bargatze did vape regularly but did not have diabetes or hypertension, underlying medical conditions that can worsen COVID-19 symptoms."

 

Vaped regularly! Nah, that can't be a contributing factor for his plight! It was clearly the fact that he didn't get vaccinated that caused the severity of his problems. Thank god he didn't have diabetes or hypertemsion!

 

 

[geo12the]

 Don't you, geo12the, take advantage of any tax "loopholes" that apply to your small businesses? If some people, or coroporations, pay little or no taxes it isn't their fault. It's the fault of the politicians who make the tax code provisions in compliance with the wishes of lobbyists who want to grant certain parties special treatment. As an interesting fact, demonstrating what a penurious person he is, president Bone spurs didn't keep his $400,000 a year salary, but donated it to various federal agencies..

 

I don't know if president Bone spurs actually had bone spurs, but if he did, and, if at the time, having bone spurs was a basis for deferment, then he committed no crime by accepting the deferment. If he didn't have bone spurs then the burden of proof would be on someone to show that he didn't. The ability to make long marches is a prerequisite for the safety of the individual soldier as well as for the soldiers who troop together as a unit. It would be a bad idea to have a person with bone spurs in a unit that he could potentially slow down, and possibly put at risk, by not being able to keep up with his fellows.

 

 

(Deer Leader says: "The left hates the right with a visceral passion. While the right merely wonders why the left lacks even a rudimentary grasp of logic, or a modicum of the ability to reason, as well as why they exhibit an uncanny knack for getting what should be easily understandable, fundamental concepts, so utterly wrong.")

 

To be honest tax matters are not my expertise, I am sure I could be deducting more things. I am too busy trying to run my 2 small businesses. My larger point is that privileged people like Trump have lawyers to help them avoid taxes and they get away with skirting the law- deducting their kids tuition and vacations and other stuff they should not be deducting from their taxes. Most of us would not even think about breaking the law in that way.  This kind of stuff is more consequential than John Kerry not wearing a mask at TSA. Although I cite Trump, both political parties do this and I should emphasize I am NOT a partisan Democrat, I am a Libertarian leaning independent and have voted for Republicans in the past. 

 

If I had to bet $1 million bucks I would say Bone spurs did not have bone spurs and it was just an excuse the doctor found for him to not serve so that in the future he could belittle brave Americans like John McCain who put their lives at risk for their country.  

[Mind]

Riot van/swat team shows up to make sure a 12 year old is self-isolating.

 

Riot vans never show up to make sure politicians are following COVID protocols. Of course not. The rules are not for them.

 

 

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Another example of "Do as I say, not as I do".

 

"Following news that Mr Javid had tested positive and been in contact with Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak, No 10 said a workplace pilot scheme would allow them to keep working from Downing Street."

 

In this case, Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak had to back down. But, the fact that they made the attempt to carve out an exception to self-isolation for themselves just goes to show the hubris of the elite class.

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 18 July 2021 - 07:18 PM.

[zorba990]

Is the UK an anomaly? Are the positive tests just picking up spike proteins from the Vaccine being made long after they were supposed to be? Why would that affect the number of deaths or hospitalizations?

https://dailyexpose....w-has-covid-19/

"Just ask the new Health Secretary Sajid Javid, who had his second dose of a Covid-19 vaccine on the 16th May 2021, and is now self-isolating at home with his family after testing positive for Covid-19 on the 17th July 2021, two months later.

Even Public Health England data shows us that the majority of people now dying with Covid-19 have been fully vaccinated. 68% of the deaths to have occurred in the over 50’s since February 2021 have been people who had received two doses of the jab.

Once you do the maths based on the data presented by PHE you can see that your risk of dying with Covid-19 is 990% higher if you are fully vaccinated compared to not being vaccinated at all. The data also shows us that your chances of being hospitalised with Covid-19 increases by 81.24% if you have had two doses of a Covid-19 vaccine. This is not what they said they would do on the tin."

[Daniel Cooper]

I have seen many ordinary people totally flouting the lockdown rules. In the middle of lockdown in London, I saw 200 people gathering for a wedding right next to where I live, with lots of fireworks. In the news I see stories of illegal rave parties taking place with hundreds of people present, which police close down.

 

It is clear that the ordinary general public are flouting lockdown just as much as the rich and privileged. 

 

 

Ah, but don't you see the difference?  The general public did not make the rules concerning lockdowns. They are not the hypocrites.

 

If you're in the position to be making these sorts of rules, by god you should live by them.   Once again, "Do as I say, not as I do" has never engendered warm feelings of a population towards their political leadership.  And it never will.

[geo12the]

Is the UK an anomaly? Are the positive tests just picking up spike proteins from the Vaccine being made long after they were supposed to be? Why would that affect the number of deaths or hospitalizations?

https://dailyexpose....w-has-covid-19/

"Just ask the new Health Secretary Sajid Javid, who had his second dose of a Covid-19 vaccine on the 16th May 2021, and is now self-isolating at home with his family after testing positive for Covid-19 on the 17th July 2021, two months later.

Even Public Health England data shows us that the majority of people now dying with Covid-19 have been fully vaccinated. 68% of the deaths to have occurred in the over 50’s since February 2021 have been people who had received two doses of the jab.

Once you do the maths based on the data presented by PHE you can see that your risk of dying with Covid-19 is 990% higher if you are fully vaccinated compared to not being vaccinated at all. The data also shows us that your chances of being hospitalised with Covid-19 increases by 81.24% if you have had two doses of a Covid-19 vaccine. This is not what they said they would do on the tin."

 

This is nonsense. The vaccines are keeping people from getting sick. there is lots of spreading of misinformation and misrepresenting numbers and data. Anti-vax = Pro-death

 

https://www.reuters....g-idUSL2N2OD2CJ

[Daniel Cooper]

Is the UK an anomaly? Are the positive tests just picking up spike proteins from the Vaccine being made long after they were supposed to be? Why would that affect the number of deaths or hospitalizations?

https://dailyexpose....w-has-covid-19/

"Just ask the new Health Secretary Sajid Javid, who had his second dose of a Covid-19 vaccine on the 16th May 2021, and is now self-isolating at home with his family after testing positive for Covid-19 on the 17th July 2021, two months later.

Even Public Health England data shows us that the majority of people now dying with Covid-19 have been fully vaccinated. 68% of the deaths to have occurred in the over 50’s since February 2021 have been people who had received two doses of the jab.

Once you do the maths based on the data presented by PHE you can see that your risk of dying with Covid-19 is 990% higher if you are fully vaccinated compared to not being vaccinated at all. The data also shows us that your chances of being hospitalised with Covid-19 increases by 81.24% if you have had two doses of a Covid-19 vaccine. This is not what they said they would do on the tin."

 

I don't believe this is consistent with any of the data that I have seen.  

[geo12the]

This is nonsense. The vaccines are keeping people from getting sick. there is lots of spreading of misinformation and misrepresenting numbers and data. Anti-vax = Pro-death

 

https://www.reuters....g-idUSL2N2OD2CJ

 

There is lots of misinformation being spread about vaccination. Often this is politically tinged with political hacks like Tucker Carlson riling up the MAGA base. All you need to do is look at the stats.  In places with less vaccination COVID is going up. It should not be a divisive or political issue. At the end of the day we all want to live and be healthy and have longevity. The best way to achieve that is to be vaccinated. Why some allow political prejudice and exaggerated mistrust of science to cloud that I just can't understand. Take off your political goggles and see the world for what it is.  

[Daniel Cooper]

So this fellow in the UK Vallance has corrected himself and said that 60% of the people being admitted with covid are "unjabbed".
 
Jabbed vs. Non-Jabbed Hospitalization rates - Correction
 
Add that in with the fact that about 90% of the UK population has had at least one vaccination, that means that the 60% of the hospital admissions for covid are coming from the 10% of the population with no vaccination.

 

That certainly does not in any way show that getting the vaccination makes you more susceptible to being hospitalized with covid.