914 replies to this topic

[Mind]

This is the "alternative views thread".

 

The fact the rich elite members of society and politicians (of any stripe) continue to violate mandates without concern for punishment, or for spreading the virus, or becoming ill with COVID, speaks volumes.

 

As communities, lives, businesses, and children's mental health are being destroyed around the world - ALL IN THE NAME OF PUBLIC HEALTH - the obscenely wealthy and politicians (of any party) do whatever they want, as if nothing is going on. It is an extremely important discussion.

[Mind]

Doctors are being threatened now - being told they can only talk publicly about consensus-driven information. No more trusting the "science". Whatever is the consensus is now the "truth".

 

We have officially entered very dangerous territory.

[Ames]

One of the most compelling reasons for taking the vaccine is COVID passports.

 

In other words,

 

Vaccination Sets You Free

Edited by Ames, 07 August 2021 - 08:59 PM.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

"Vaccination Sets You Free"

 

Good point, Ames.

 

(Translated to German: " Arbeit Macht Frei ")

[Ames]

Its snappier than "Holland Tunnel".

[joesixpack]

"Barack Obama reportedly cancels ‘big’ 60th birthday bash"

 

I saw that, only he "apparently" did not cancel the party. He just pretended to.

[Mind]

One of the most compelling reasons for taking the vaccine is COVID passports.

 

In other words,

 

Vaccination Sets You Free

 

Are you sure about that? In Israel, one of the most vaccinated countries in the world, they are contemplating another lockdown, because vaccinated people are contracting COVID, spreading the virus, and getting ill.

 

What is the value of a "passport" if it is meaningless for disease prevention? What is the purpose?

[pamojja]

Are you sure about that? In Israel, one of the most vaccinated countries in the world, they are contemplating another lockdown, because vaccinated people are contracting COVID, spreading the virus, and getting ill.

 

What is the value of a "passport" if it is meaningless for disease prevention? What is the purpose?

 

It only needed the illusion, for example for travelling freedom, for many to sign up to vaccinate. That illusion is still propagated here. In fact all my 5 co-workers who had mild covid (still don' know anyone who got it stronger needing hospitalization), got the shots in anticipation of such freedoms again. When asked why they think they needed the additional shots, despite already having much better natural immunity now?

Edited by pamojja, 08 August 2021 - 11:26 AM.

[zorba990]

"Vaccination Sets You Free"

Good point, Ames.

(Translated to German: " Arbeit Macht Frei ")

Yes, this CDC page explains the plan https://www.cdc.gov/...manitarian.html
A sort of "final solution" to Covid.

Australia is in the same "camp" https://twitter.com/...285855020052490

Edited by zorba990, 08 August 2021 - 03:18 PM.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

From zorba990's link in post #879:

 

"High-risk individuals would be temporarily relocated to safe or “green zones” established at the household, neighborhood, camp/sector or community level depending on the context and setting.1,2 They would have minimal contact with family members and other low-risk residents."

 

"Inadvertent introduction of the virus into a green zone may result in rapid transmission among the most vulnerable populations the approach is trying to protect."

 

Ah, it's for their own "protection".

 

I have some time-tested names to suggest for reuse in naming the Green Zone "camps":

 

Auschwitz-Birkenau

Belzec

Buchenwald

Dachau

Flossenburg

Sachsenhausen

Sobibor

Stutthof

Terezin

Treblinka

[Dorian Grey]

Life is sweet in Sweden: 

 

https://thevaccinere...more-lockdowns/

 

Daily COVID Deaths in Sweden Hit Zero, as Other Nations Brace for More Lockdowns

 

One country not making much news is Sweden.

 

Sweden, of course, was maligned in 2020 for foregoing a strict lockdown. The Guardian called its approach “a catastrophe” in the making, while CBS News said Sweden had become “an example of how not to handle COVID-19.”

 

Despite these criticisms, Sweden’s laissez-faire approach to the pandemic continues today. In contrast to its European neighbors, Sweden is welcoming tourists. Businesses and schools are open with almost no restrictions. And as far as masks are concerned, not only is there no mandate in place, Swedish health officials are not even recommending them.

 

What are the results of Sweden’s much-derided laissez-faire policy? Data show the 7-day rolling average for COVID deaths yesterday was zero (see below). As in nada. And it’s been at zero for about a week now.

 

Even a year ago, it was clear the hyperbolic claims about “the Swedish catastrophe” were false; just ask Elon Musk (also see: here, here, and here). But a year later the evidence is overwhelming that Sweden got the pandemic mostly right. Sweden’s overall mortality rate in 2020 was lower than most of Europe and its economy suffered far less.

 

Meanwhile, today Sweden is freer and healthier than virtually any other country in Europe.

 

As much of the world remains gripped in fear and nations devise new restrictions to curtail basic freedoms, Sweden remains a vital and shining reminder that there is a better way.

 

Edited by Dorian Grey, 09 August 2021 - 10:54 PM.

[Ames]

It only needed the illusion, for example for travelling freedom, for many to sign up to vaccinate. That illusion is still propagated here. In fact all my 5 co-workers who had mild covid (still don' know anyone who got it stronger needing hospitalization), got the shots in anticipation of such freedoms again. When asked why they think they needed the additional shots, despite already having much better natural immunity now?

 

Then there is this:

 

https://www.israelna...ews.aspx/309762

 

Nearly 40% of new COVID patients were vaccinated - compared to just 1% who had been infected previously

 

 

This data indicates that immunity in the recovered is stronger protection against infection than vaccination.

 

In concert with pamojja's anecdote, the question would be:

does vaccination raise the chances of infection for a recovered person?

 

I have no idea. It seems crucial to answer.

Edited by Ames, 09 August 2021 - 10:56 PM.

[Mr Serendipity]

https://youtu.be/X7v_0K3kV60

Only video you need to watch.

[Florin]

Sweden has done a lot worse than its neighbors, Finland and Norway.

 

https://ourworldinda...try=SWE~NOR~FIN

https://ourworldinda...try=SWE~NOR~FIN

[zorba990]

Sweden has done a lot worse than its neighbors, Finland and Norway.

https://ourworldinda...try=SWE~NOR~FIN
https://ourworldinda...try=SWE~NOR~FIN

China and Africa are both amazingly low on those charts.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Here and here are the graphs linked in post #884 with the United States added. 

 

From Bloomberg:

 

"Sweden’s economy returned to its pre-pandemic level in the first quarter as the recovery in the largest Nordic economy is outpacing most of its wealthy peers."

 

Economic impact in the USA, from Wikipedia.

[Dorian Grey]

And in California...  The most locked down, masked up, shuttered business, paranoid state in the USA: 

 

https://www.kff.org/...","sort":"asc"}

 

Cases per million: 101,731

 

Deaths per million: 1,643

 

Sorry I can't do an overlay chart, but Sweden appears to be very close to right on par with California.  

[Florin]

Quarterly Growth Rates of real GDP, change over previous quarter
https://stats.oecd.o...spx?queryid=350

 

Almost the same rates of decline for Finland, Norway, and Sweden from Q1-2020 to Q1-2021.

 

Quarterly Growth Rates of real GDP, change over same quarter, previous year
https://stats.oecd.o...x?queryid=26674

 

Norway declined a lot less compared to Finland and Sweden from Q1-2020 to Q1-2021.

 

No data for Q2-2021 for Finland and Norway.

Edited by Florin, 10 August 2021 - 04:36 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

Overall growth rates & GDP are one thing.  I'd like to see the stats on how many little guy businesses got clobbered into extinction at the expense of corporate entities.  

 

Shopping malls in San Diego I frequent appear to be around 20-30 percent vacant.  Walmart, Target & corporate restaurants all seemed to have survived, but small businesses & eateries were sacrificed to the gods of lockdown.  

 

I feel like the luckiest guy on earth, retired in 2018 and watching from the sidelines.  Can't imagine if I was a small business owner who got pulled under while in my 50s.  A great many lives destroyed.  

 

Did it really have to be so hard?  

[pamojja]

This data indicates that immunity in the recovered is stronger protection against infection than vaccination.

 

In concert with pamojja's anecdote, the question would be:

does vaccination raise the chances of infection for a recovered person?

 

I have no idea. It seems crucial to answer.

 

https://youtu.be/X7v_0K3kV60

Only video you need to watch.

 

In case it gets censored on youtube: https://tv.gab.com/c...b022aa59dd65777 (just 6 minutes of video)

 

"..no benefit of formerly infected being vaccinated whatsoever, ... but 2 to 3 times more side-effects."

 

 

Asked about side-effects from the vaccine, they seems very rare. Except in my formerly infected co-workers, who all had days of sickness-leave after the shots.

Edited by pamojja, 10 August 2021 - 07:08 AM.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

COVID-19 effects on economies of selected countries. Possible ramifications of policy decisions such as lockdowns and masking.

 

Norway's economy to surpass pre-pandemic level this year -IMF April 26, 2021.

 

"OSLO, April 26 (Reuters) - The Norwegian economy is set to surpass its pre-pandemic size by the end of 2021 amid a strong rebound in growth, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) said in a report on Monday."

 

In Other words, the best-case scenario would be that Norway is currently at pre-pandemic economic levels. But, considering the data in the links from post #888, it is suggestive that, because change over the previous quarter and the change over same quarter, previous year, are both negative (-0.6 and -0.2, respectively, at quarter 1, 2021), Norway is not at pre-pandemic economic levels.

 

FINLAND: ROAD TO RECOVERY AFTER COVID-19 May, 2021

 

"In Finland, business data indicate that the manufacturing sector has already resumed most of its production to the pre-crisis level. However, the negative impact of the pandemic will linger somewhat longer in the services sector, especially in some heavily affected industries such as travel services, food and accommodation services, and arts and entertainment."

 

Here, the operant word is "most". Since "most" is clearly not "all", it follows that  Finland is not at pre-pandemic ("crisis") economic levels as of May, 2021, the date of the report.

 

Conclusion: Sweden is at pre-pandemic economic levels (Bloomberg). Finland and Norway are not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 10 August 2021 - 07:58 AM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Quarterly Growth Rates of real GDP, change over previous quarter
https://stats.oecd.o...spx?queryid=350

 

Almost the same rates of decline for Finland, Norway, and Sweden from Q1-2020 to Q1-2021.

 

Quarterly Growth Rates of real GDP, change over same quarter, previous year
https://stats.oecd.o...x?queryid=26674

 

Norway declined a lot less compared to Finland and Sweden from Q1-2020 to Q1-2021.

 

No data for Q2-2021 for Finland and Norway.

 

Norway benefits from North Sea crude oil sales.

 

 

[Florin]

Conclusion: Sweden is at pre-pandemic economic levels (Bloomberg). Finland and Norway are not.

No data for Q2-2021 for Finland and Norway.

[Daniel Cooper]

 

This data indicates that immunity in the recovered is stronger protection against infection than vaccination.

 

 

It's weird, within about 2 days I saw two different studies on this subject that said exactly opposite things - one said the vaccine gave superior immunity to naturally acquired immunity and the other said the reverse.

 

Research seems to be all over the place on a myriad of issues related to covid.

 

One would *think* that natural immunity would be superior. With the vaccine you're only building immunity to one aspect of the covid-19 virus - the spike protein.  With natural immunity you're training multiple different immune systems against a variety of different aspects of the virus. I would think in particular that would give you superior immunity against different variants whereas now a significant mutation in the spike protein gene has a potential to evade the current vaccines.  Of course, they picked the spike protein for the very fact that it seems highly conserved as the virus mutates.

[Ames]

It's weird, within about 2 days I saw two different studies on this subject that said exactly opposite things - one said the vaccine gave superior immunity to naturally acquired immunity and the other said the reverse.

 

In this political climate, that's probably to be expected. So research critique will come to the fore in each instance in order to feret out which is the better data. It should all be pretty strong on its face, and so it might come down to the analysis. Strong studies shouldn't completely conflict like that, and so reviewers will want to be careful in terms of knowing what it is exactly that they are looking at.

 

One would *think* that natural immunity would be superior. With the vaccine you're only building immunity to one aspect of the covid-19 virus - the spike protein.  With natural immunity you're training multiple different immune systems against a variety of different aspects of the virus. I would think in particular that would give you superior immunity against different variants whereas now a significant mutation in the spike protein gene has a potential to evade the current vaccines.  Of course, they picked the spike protein for the very fact that it seems highly conserved as the virus mutates.

 

 

 

I had a nasty virus about nine years ago. It wasn't quite a strong case of COVID 19, but it was in the ballpark. I would have done it different to do it again, but I white knuckled my way through it with no medical consulation and almost zero meds. It took three months to recover from, and another two years to completely recover from. My lungs are likely still "recovering". 

 

Benefit: I have no doubt that I have a form of immunity to anything related, eminating from my bone marrow. 

Conclusion: choosing that over a vaccine (or at least intervention) isn't smart. 

 

So it comes down to two choices:

knowledge that you aren't in enough of a risk group and have a commitment to getting out in front of any symptoms early vs getting vaxed, and

what to do if you've already had COVID and are considering getting vaxed. 

 

The most relevant question is probably the second one at this juncture, because most have decided between the first two choices.

 

Some people will have had asymptomatic or mild COVID, and haven't been vaccinated. 

 

WIll their reinfection rate get the honest attention it deserves, in comparison with those who were infected and then vaccinated?

 

Right now we have a blanket vaccination mandate.

Edited by Ames, 10 August 2021 - 07:14 PM.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

COVID-19 economic effects

 

Change over previous quarter (data from post # 888 links)

 

                                    Q1-20     Q2-20    Q3-20     Q4-20       Q1-21     Q2-21

FINLAND                       -0.5       -6.1         4.5           0.5            0.0           ?

NORWAY                       -1.5       -4.6         4.3           0.8           -0.6           ?

SWEDEN                       -0.9       -7.8         7 .4          0.0            0.8          0.9 

 

 

Florin repeats in post #893: "No data for Q2-2021 for Finland and Norway"

 

Something happened in, or prior to, Q3-20 that precipitated large percentage gains for all three countries. The trajectories after that point indicate that Finland (0.5, 0.0, ?) and Norway (0.8, -0.6, ?) were on downward trends, while Sweden (0.0, 0.8, 0.9) was on an upward trend. If the trend had actually continued for Finland and Norway then they would not have reached pre-pandemic economic levels by Q2-21.

 

Since, according to Bloomberg, Sweden had reached pre-pandemic economic levels by the time of the article, May 28, 2021 (essentially the end of Q1-21), and, given the trajectory of the above data, Sweden will remain (Q2-21 +0.1 change from previous quarter, 0.8, Q1-21) at least at pre-pandemic economic levels. Finland and Norway will not, according to the trends.

 

If Finland and Norway defy their trends and show gains in Q2-21 it still might not mean that they have reached pre-pandemic economic levels. Because, the ansatz is unknown from the data in the links.

 

My first reference in post #891 predicts that Norway "will not surpass pre-pandemic levels until the end of 2021". The current trajectory for Norway suggests that that optimistic prediction is problematical. Daniel Cooper implicitly suggests (post #892) that Norway's oil sales will have a positive effect on its recovery as the world transitions back to a more normal (hopefully) economy.

 

For Finland (post #891): "However, the negative impact of the pandemic will linger somewhat longer in the services sector, especially in some heavily affected industries such as travel services, food and accommodation services, and arts and entertainment.". 

 

The affected sectors for Finland are among those that "pose a major threat to the recovery". The linked article suggests:

 

"Before the pandemic, travel and tourism accounted for 10% of global GDP and a similar share of jobs. The industry's economic contribution was cut in half last year, with 62 million jobs lost, according to the World Travel and Tourism Council.".

 

"While vacationers in Europe and the United States are itching to return to the skies, the surge in coronavirus cases linked to the Delta variant has prompted many governments to keep travel restrictions and testing requirements in place. That's keeping many would-be travelers at home and heaping more pain on an industry that's crucial to the pandemic recovery."

 

The extent to which Finland adheres to its COVID-19 travel, lockdown, and masking mandates will likely affect its economic recovery.

 

Conclusion, using data, and logic: Sweden is back to at least pre-pandemic economic levels, Finland and Norway are not. 

 

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 10 August 2021 - 07:49 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Benefit: I have no doubt that I have a form of immunity to anything related, eminating from my bone marrow. 
Conclusion: choosing that over a vaccine (or at least intervention) isn't smart.

 
No disagreement with that at all. The complications of covid are far worse than the complications of the covid vaccine, which is why I got vaccinated back in March.
 
But that said, there are policies to be considered. Do you encourage someone that has already had covid to get the vaccine? To me personally, I would not. I think they're looking at minimal additional benefit but with a small (but non-zero) risk of complications.  The other consideration is how those with natural immunity will fare going forward as the virus continues to mutate versus those of us with vaccine acquired immunity.  In the US and most of Western Europe the percentage of the population with natural immunity is considerable. In my local area, my back of the envelope calculation says that there are about as many people now with natural immunity as those that have been vaccinated (with a Venn diagram showing some overlap of the two groups).  This has a bearing on the urgency of getting out booster shots to deal with new variants going forward.
 
At the end of the day, covid is here to stay. The vast majority of us will end up getting infected with it at some point. Hopefully the vaccinations, antibody treatments, and antivirals will result in most people having relatively mild cases and ever declining death rates. There are seven other coronaviruses in circulation.  Most of those probably caused fairly severe disease when they first jumped into humans. In fact the 1889 Russian Flu may have been a coronavirus originating in cattle that killed about 1 million on a world population of 1.5 billion (a death rate somewhat worse than covid-19 so far). Eventually as that virus mutated it also became less lethal and today causes a percentage of the common cold. My expectation is that covid-19 will follow that same path and looking at the data from the delta variant I think that process is well underway. The question is what do we do in the meantime? I'm skeptical of handing governments blank checks to do as they will in the name of a pandemic. Pandemics aren't new. We've had them before and until we get broad based antivirals we'll have them again. The issue is that once you hand a government "temporary power" for a specific reason, it tends to become permanent and general. It's that whole "power corrupts" thing.

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 10 August 2021 - 07:51 PM.

[Ames]

I agree. If I am giving an unvarnished opinion unsullied by consideration of policy to date (as my prior opinion was), I think that COVID is real and dangerous to specific groups. But that the response is bullshit, wherein the mandated medical cure is worse than the cause in terms of the total cost and risk to everyone. And that what is occuring is juked and politicized for power of the political class (unseen since WWII) and profit. Which is more than obvious.

 

No one can believe what they read at this juncture. They are bald face lying in terms of expected disease mechanics as it moves through populations (vaccinated and unvaccinated). Even most data will be suspect, because they aren't testing the vaccinated that are infected until the last moment when at all. At least in the U.S.

 

Then there is the issue of the simulataneous lockdowns and year-of-riots in an election year. Making the lockdowns (and by extension COVID) seem unserious to much of the population that is now being ostracized by the Press for going unvaxed. Many of them because they correctly detect a series of lies / central inconsistencies. Many of them were directly terrorized during the riots, with the same Press inciting that violence that is now telling them that they are giving them the truth about COVID.  The Press and the political class locked the riots and COVID together in the minds of much of the Nation, as an inconsistent narrative. They did that. And now they are ostracizing the population result of their actions.

Edited by Ames, 10 August 2021 - 08:28 PM.

[bladedmind]

 

 

 

Meanwhile, today Sweden is freer and healthier than virtually any other country in Europe.

 

As much of the world remains gripped in fear and nations devise new restrictions to curtail basic freedoms, Sweden remains a vital and shining reminder that there is a better way.

 

I don't get it.  One person marked this as ill-informed and another as disliked.  If the claims are wrong, show that they are wrong.  Otherwise, I am not impressed by your anonymous claim to authority or by your feelings.  

 

Here are great comparative Covid-19 data, updated daily. 
 

https://graphics.reu...itories/sweden/

 

Sweden

9% of peak and rising

43 infections per 100K people reported last 7 days

Updated 2:20 PM PDT

 

....

 

United Kingdom27,674 *
45% of peak
France 22,733
43% of peak and rising
Russia 22,442
78% of peak and falling
Spain 17,827
49% of peak and falling

 

 

 Screen Shot 2021-08-10 at 5.00.20 PM.png   549.46KB   0 downloads

[Florin]

Conclusion, using data, and logic: Sweden is back to at least pre-pandemic economic levels, Finland and Norway are not. 

 

For 2020 (compared to 2019), Norway's GPD declined a lot less than Finland's, and Finland's GDP declined a tiny bit less than Sweden's. The data for 2021 is too incomplete to do any fair comparison.

 

GDP growth (annual %) - Sweden, Norway, Finland

https://data.worldba...O-FI&start=2008

 

GDP (constant 2010 US$) - Sweden, Norway, Finland
https://data.worldba...O-FI&start=2008