982 replies to this topic

[Dorian Grey]

PRAISE THE LORD!  Big Pharma has lost and Fauci & the FDA have crumped to Trump's demands. 

 

https://www.longecit...navirus/page-15

 

Looks like both hydroxychloroquine and even old school chloroquine are both starting to get widespread use 

 

Plasma/antibody transfusions have FDA GREEN LIGHT to proceed.  

 

Some are even trying supplemental zinc & Vitamin-C?  What's the world coming to? 

 

I guess Trump made it clear we're simply not going to bankrupt the entire country while the FDA runs trials on the chloroquine meds & other therapies.  

 

Praise God, We're Saved!  Thanks Donald!  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 25 March 2020 - 04:53 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

Pointless & timewasting?  Therapies that have shown promise & remarkable results around the world will start saving lives (and the economy) in the USA!  

 

Better perhaps if every small business in America goes under & millions become homeless, while big business bailouts add trillions to the national debt?  

 

I'm retired, so no worries here.  Does anyone care about their kids future?  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 25 March 2020 - 05:02 AM.

[pamojja]

Therapies that have shown promise & remarkable results around the world will start saving lives (and the economy) in the USA!

 

Though it wasn't me voting, and that's probably the first and last time I'm in agreement with Trump. It most probably will also be to his downfall. Non-patentable natural substances like vitamin C will never be approved by the FDA for the treatment of any disease.

 

They will do the trial just as designed, like they did to prove Linus Pauling wrong.
 

[OP2040]

I'm curious how many people have it and don't even know it.  I know we can estimate that.  But having a widely available antibody test would be just as valuable as the coronavirus test.  With it, you could do twice the epidemiology, send people back to work, enforce a sort of unnatural herd immunity, etc.  Granted, we are not even close to organized enough to accomplish any of these things.  

 

My trip to the local grocery store this morning was enlightening.  I'm in VT, which hasn't been hit too hard just yet but it is ramping up now.  People are social distancing, everything is being sprayed down, etc.  But I question the wisdom of the stores having specific times for seniors.  I went in just after this time slot and there was still a large number of seniors, all in one place.  This struck me as worse due to the enforced and unnatural crowding effect that it encouraged.

[Dorian Grey]

Governor of Nevada has just banned prescribing of chloroquine meds for COVID.  Will be interesting to see how long that lasts!  

 

Draconian lock-downs are one way to fix an epidemic like this. In China they were nailing peoples doors shut & leaving them to starve.  Don't know that this will work in America. 

 

People are already starting to get isolation fatigue and many are ignoring recommendations.  This scenario will only extend the process from what might be a few weeks, into many months.  How do you re-start an economy that's been mothballed and gone completely cold for an entire season?  

 

Big Pharma & the FDA/CDC reluctance at allowing experimental or alternative treatments would be a nail in the coffin for citizens and business alike.  It's going to be a fine mess until we find which therapies work best, and there will be many deaths.  Localized lock-downs & quarantines may continue, but if they continue too long, these areas will soon resemble dead branches on a tree.  

 

I had an English friend who once told me "The problem with you American's is, you think there is a solution to every problem".  Our current conundrum reminded me of his words.  We can't just keep businesses closed indefinitely...  We can't spend months on clinical trials and development of new vaccines & meds before we start treating people.  This truly is a problem with NO good solution.  We'll just have to do the best we can.  

 

Keep calm, & carry on and this too shall pass.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 25 March 2020 - 02:46 PM.

[BlueCloud]

Draconian lock-downs are one way to fix an epidemic like this. In China they were nailing peoples doors shut & leaving them to starve.  Don't know that this will work in America. 

 

 

Totally draconians lockdowns like in China are not doable in the West, but Semi-draconian Lock-downs  like in Italy, Spain or France are doable. You are still able to go out to buy food, or to work ( if you can prove your work is not doable from home), but it is enforced by various measures, like making it mandatory to fill up a form everytime you go out, mentionning the hour you left home, and enough police in the streets to control people outside and hand fines if they didn’t fill the form .
Of course, this can only work if the government is willing to offer various economic measures to help out anyone ( both individuals and businesses) impacted by these measures.
i can assure you this has completely emptied the streets of all these countries.

[Dorian Grey]

Agree BlueCloud.  We'll see how long they can keep this up.  Citizens in Europe tend a bit more responsible and obedient to government requests.  

 

Can't imagine a nationwide restriction like this going into several months here in America.  I actually think we should try to hold out a bit longer, until we ramp-up production of meds we need.  I'm hanging tight for as long as I can.  

 

Girlfriend said they are planning to re-open granddaughter's daycare with only 10 kids per room instead of 20.  Really?  Good luck with that!  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 25 March 2020 - 03:05 PM.

[Mind]

PRAISE THE LORD!  Big Pharma has lost and Fauci & the FDA have crumped to Trump's demands. 

 

https://www.longecit...navirus/page-15

 

Looks like both hydroxychloroquine and even old school chloroquine are both starting to get widespread use 

 

Plasma/antibody transfusions have FDA GREEN LIGHT to proceed.  

 

Some are even trying supplemental zinc & Vitamin-C?  What's the world coming to? 

 

I guess Trump made it clear we're simply not going to bankrupt the entire country while the FDA runs trials on the chloroquine meds & other therapies.  

 

Praise God, We're Saved!  Thanks Donald!  

 

Absolutely 100% agree. If this is truly a crisis like no other in the last 100 years, then FDA and CDC rules need to be relaxed. Small trials of various therapies and medications need to go forward.

 

Trump is the only politician out there searching for a REAL SOLUTION as fast as possible. Most everyone else is just instituting more severe lock-downs week, after week, after week, with zero plan for the future....except maybe waiting for a vaccine to arrive in a couple of years. What kind-of of solution is that? Not a good one. With all of the brain power and computer power of the world focused upon this one problem, we should be able to get REAL workable solutions very soon.

 

I know a lot of people hate Donald Trump, but I will give him props for trying to do something positive, for saying "we are going to beat this thing", "we are going to win this thing"

[Mind]

Several members have started talking about national policy measure that could be taken to help hasten an end to the coronavirus pandemic. This will serve as a thread for those discussions.

[BlueCloud]

. Most everyone else is just instituting more severe lock-downs week, after week, after week, with zero plan for the future....except maybe waiting for a vaccine to arrive in a couple of years. What kind-of of solution is that? Not a good one. With all of the brain power and computer power of the world focused upon this one problem, we should be able to get REAL workable solutions very soon.

That Is absolutely NOT true, and one of the most ignorant and uninformed things I’ve read on this forum. You need to start reading a bit more about what is happening outside ouf the US, because you are just enforcing the “ignorant american” stereotype !!

Do you really believe  China has done nothing but lock-downs ? There are TONS of studies being conducted there right now. And where do you think the hydroxychloroquine + azythromicine treatement came from  ( yes , THE treatement that is being touted as the miracle by Trump) ? It came for Dr Didier Raoult from  Marseille in France, who was the first to test it on a small number of 26 patients in February . It is now being tested on  more than 3000 people in France on a different study, along with 7 other studies of various other molecules. At the end of the lockdown, massive test for both presence of the virus as well as antibodies will be conducted.

Do you really believe Italy doesn’t want to do more research and doing this lock-down for fun ? They are locking-down because they DONT HAVE A CHOICE right now.
 Canada is doing research on a treatement usually used for a local epidemic they had ( can’t remember the name), Hell, even Cuba is testing interferon right now, while Senegal (!) has developped the cheapest to manufacture corronavirus test ( 1 $) ever.. My God, so much research for treatements and diagnostics  are happening in the world right now, but I guess  just because Trump didn’t  tweet about them, they didn’t happen ...
 

 

Just because you are not informed  about anything happening outside the US doesn’t mean NOTHING happened outside the US.

Very disappointing coming from you , Mind.

Edited by BlueCloud, 25 March 2020 - 04:00 PM.

[Mind]

That Is absolutely NOT true, and one of the most ignorant and uninformed things I’ve read on this forum. You need to start reading a bit more about what is happening outside ouf the US, because you are just enforcing the “ignorant american” stereotype !!

Do you really believe  China has done nothing but lock-downs ? There are TONS of studies being conducted there right now. And where do you think the hydroxychloroquine + azythromicine treatement came from ? It came for Dr Didier Raoult from  Marseille in France, who was the first to test it on a small number of 26 patients in February . It is now being tested on  more than 3000 people in France on a different study, along with 7 other studies of various other molecules. At the end of the lockdown, massive test for both presence of the virus as well as antibodies will be conducted.

Do you really believe Italy doesn’t want to do more research and doing this lock-down for fun ? They are locking-down because they DONT HAVE A CHOICE right now.
 Canada is doing research on a treatement usually used for a local epidemic they had ( can’t remember the name), Hell, even Cuba is testing interferon right now, while Senegal (!) has developped the cheapest to manufacture corronavirus test ( 1 $) ever.. My God, so much research for treatements and diagnostics  are happening in the world right now, but I guess  just because Trump didn’t  tweet about them, they didn’t happen ...
 

 

Just because you are not informed  about anything happening outside the US doesn’t mean NOTHING happened outside the US.

Very disappointing coming from you , Mind.

 

I was speaking mostly about the U.S. Governors are just instituting wave after wave of more restrictive lock-downs - never mentioning anything about plans for the future or possible solutions. Very depressing.

 

I did not mean to disparage other countries. I am well aware that solutions are being probed around the world - and it is AWESOME! Many posters in the "protecting" thread have done a good job informing everyone about various trials around the world. I didn't mean to offend you. I should have been more careful and clear in the wording.

Edited by Mind, 25 March 2020 - 04:53 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

Chris Martenson (Peak Prosperity) often makes a good point about lock-downs & quarantines vs crashing the economy.  

 

There has to be a balance that preserves the economy, while avoiding overloading the healthcare system.  

 

I see tents are going up around hospitals in New York, with refrigerator trucks standing by to hold bodies.  Meanwhile, here in San Diego, we've got less than 300 sick county wide, with only one COVID patient in the hospital my girlfriend works at.  

 

I see a good rationale for transferring power to quarantine more locally, rather than trying to enforce a nationwide policy.  Where healthcare is overloaded, you've got to hunker down.  In areas where healthcare is under control, why not loosen up?  

 

I realize there's a two week throttle that might apply.  When cases start popping, you've got to act fast.  

 

 

[Mind]

 

"ignorant american"

 

Ironically, this is what I was kind-of trying to imply. So many american politicians are delivering a daily drumbeat of doom and gloom, without mentioning anything about what is going on around the world to solve this problem. Many are just saying "everyone go into lock-down until further notice ,maybe for months, maybe longer...nothing else to be done"

Edited by Mind, 25 March 2020 - 06:40 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Absolutely 100% agree. If this is truly a crisis like no other in the last 100 years, then FDA and CDC rules need to be relaxed. Small trials of various therapies and medications need to go forward.

 

Trump is the only politician out there searching for a REAL SOLUTION as fast as possible. Most everyone else is just instituting more severe lock-downs week, after week, after week, with zero plan for the future....except maybe waiting for a vaccine to arrive in a couple of years. What kind-of of solution is that? Not a good one. With all of the brain power and computer power of the world focused upon this one problem, we should be able to get REAL workable solutions very soon.

 

I know a lot of people hate Donald Trump, but I will give him props for trying to do something positive, for saying "we are going to beat this thing", "we are going to win this thing"

 

The FDA and the CDC have tried to say two things that are diametrically opposed - this is a crisis of epic proportions AND we need to continue more or less with our normal review process for approving new treatments.  If the first is true then the second has to give.

 

This was most dramatically illustrated when the bureaucracy in the CDC decided that the test that the South Koreans were using wasn't good enough and that the US needed to go it alone and develop a new test which they then promptly fouled up. What rank stupidity.

 

With the number of sick/desperately sick people available, it should take you a couple of weeks to decide whether hydroxychloroquine/azithromycin or any of these other proposed treatments work.  In fact, surely the Chinese already know and have the data.

 

I can't believe it has taken this long to get approval on using two existing drugs off label that have show good results in other countries.  Actually, I take that back. It's totally believable and in character with our regulatory bureaucracy.

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 25 March 2020 - 08:42 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

I'm curious how many people have it and don't even know it.  I know we can estimate that.  But having a widely available antibody test would be just as valuable as the coronavirus test.  With it, you could do twice the epidemiology, send people back to work, enforce a sort of unnatural herd immunity, etc.  Granted, we are not even close to organized enough to accomplish any of these things.  

 

My trip to the local grocery store this morning was enlightening.  I'm in VT, which hasn't been hit too hard just yet but it is ramping up now.  People are social distancing, everything is being sprayed down, etc.  But I question the wisdom of the stores having specific times for seniors.  I went in just after this time slot and there was still a large number of seniors, all in one place.  This struck me as worse due to the enforced and unnatural crowding effect that it encouraged.

 

 

The only way to get at that number is to do some truly random testing (as opposed to testing symptomatic people) and then do some statistical analysis.  We're probably just getting to the point where that is doable in terms of the number of available tests.

 

It was interesting to watch South Korea as they implemented widespread testing.  You could watch their CFR fall as those numbers began to be figured in.

 

My gut feel is that when all is said and done the CFR is going to come in just under 1%.  This will be after testing is widespread and you're not just looking at symptomatic patients.  Except possibly in Italy and Spain.  Something is going on there I don't completely understand. I wonder if we're looking a population genetics issue and a gene or constellation of genes than makes them particularly susceptible to this virus.  I bet it's going to be awhile before the story is written on that one.

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 25 March 2020 - 09:06 PM.

[OP2040]

My gut feel is that when all is said and done the CFR is going to come in just under 1%.  This will be after testing is widespread and you're not just looking at symptomatic patients.  Except possibly in Italy and Spain.  Something is going on there I don't completely understand. I wonder if we're looking a population genetics issue and a gene or constellation of genes than makes them particularly susceptible to this virus.  I bet it's going to be awhile before the story is written on that one.

 

I agree the mortality rate will end up much lower than expected in the end.  When thinking about Italy, others have brought up that they are the second oldest population, but Japan is first and does not have the same result.  My mind went straight to public transportation.  Recalling how everyone uses the highly efficient train system for almost everything.  I thought that has to be a factor for Italy and Europe in general as opposed to Asia/Americas.  Old people there are highly social, fully integrated inter-generationally and riding packed trains everywhere, at least during the beginning of the outbreak.  Ironically, this otherwise positive family-oriented environment could be a huge factor in the death rate.

Edited by OP2040, 25 March 2020 - 09:17 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Yeah, but the thing is Germany has a very extensive and well utilized public transportation system as well.  And Italy's population is older, but not radically older.  I think they're like 4 or 5 percentage points older than the surrounding European countries. 

 

Something is going on there that just doesn't seem to be well understood.  It's either the treatment they are receiving once they show up at the hospital, something that is causing far more people to be infected (particularly far more elderly people), or some genetic susceptibility to this virus in their population.   

 

The Italians are more touchy/huggy/kissy than Germans as a group.  Maybe that's it.  Or maybe their older population is somehow more exposed.  I think that it is more common to see adult children still living at home in Italy as opposed to other European countries.  Maybe the 30 yo son is bringing it home but not showing symptoms himself?  Or, maybe it is the genes.

 

Heartbreaking to see what they're going through.  If you scaled their number of deaths up to the US's population I think you'd be over 40,000 now and still rising.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Florin]

One of the dumbest things about this coronavirus situation is that almost no one, besides some countries in Asia which seem to have this thing under some control, recommends that the general public wear masks.

 

https://www.inkstone...article/3074453

https://blogs.bmj.co...id-19-epidemic/

https://www.nytimes....face-masks.html

https://www.bostongl...over-your-face/

https://news.yahoo.c...-222618518.html

Edited by Florin, 25 March 2020 - 09:57 PM.

[Mind]

One of the dumbest things about this coronavirus situation is that only some countries in Asia (which seem to have this thing under some control) recommend that the general public wear masks.

 

https://www.inkstone...article/3074453

https://blogs.bmj.co...id-19-epidemic/

https://www.nytimes....face-masks.html

https://www.bostongl...over-your-face/

https://news.yahoo.c...-222618518.html

 

I think this is a factor as well. Even if the masks do not prevent all viruses from being transmitted they will block a large percentage. If the person who sneezes is wearing a mask, the mask will block/catch a certain percentage of viral particles. If the people around nearby are wearing masks as well, their masks will block a certain percentage of viruses.

Edited by Mind, 26 March 2020 - 03:28 PM.

[Florin]

I think this is a factor as well. Even if the masks to not prevent all viruses from being transmitted they will block a large percentage. If the person who sneezes is wearing a mask, the mask will block/catch a certain percentage of viral particles. If the people around nearby are wearing masks as well, their masks will block a certain percentage of viruses.

 

Mask-wearing would also cut down on face-touching.

[OP2040]

I will 4th the opinion that the mask fiasco is really stupid.  Almost all the articles saying that masks are not helpful implicitly admit that they actually are helpful with the language they use.  The de-bunker crusaders have good intentions when it starts out, usually with someone knowledgeable, and usually saying something reasonable and nuanced.  Then by the time that information filters through the media and your idiot friends on Facebook, you get something along the lines of "masks are completely worthless". 

Edited by OP2040, 26 March 2020 - 11:10 AM.

[Daniel Cooper]

They seem to be arguing that "well, masks don't stop all viral particles".

 

Well, no shit. Masks aren't Level 3 Biohazard Suits.  

 

But a 50% or 70% reduction (don't know the actual numbers just taking a swag) in exposure to airborne viral particles is worth something.  I think they believe that telling everyone that "masks don't help" is their way of appearing calm and collected AND preventing a run on masks that the healthcare industry needs.

 

That's fine, but don't lie to us in the process.  Masks will clearly offer some protection, in spite of what the "experts" say.  

 

If the don't work then why do doctors and nurses insist on wearing them? It's not just about not cross contaminating patients, as I see doctors and nurses wearing them in large communal wards where the patients are not isolated from each other.

 

What you want to bet that if this thing drags on for months and the supply shortages of masks start to ease up they come back and say "well, if you're going to be out in public buying groceries or the like, if you've got a mask you might want to wear it".

 

 

 

 

[OP2040]

Just to underline the point, here are two contrasting approaches from media science sites:

 

This one is eminently reasonable.  Basically, they say that these have not been approved for anything in humans but lots of evidence out there and they are safe, maybe give them a try:

 

\https://www.healthli...The-bottom-line

 

This one represents the typical patronizing, pearl-clutching approach we constantly here from the media:

 

https://www.livescie...min-c-myth.html

 

Specifically, they start out saying, in so many words, that Vitamin C is worthless, so don't bother taking it for an immune boost:

 

 

Why vitamin C won't 'boost' your immune system against the coronavirus   It poses little risk but is very unlikely to help.

 

Then, halfway through the article, they proceed to provide plenty of compelling evidence that vitamin C may indeed boost the immune system.

 

 

However, recent research does suggest that vitamin C supplements reduce the duration of colds in the general population, according to a 2013 review of several dozen studies. 

The review found that vitamin C supplements taken during a cold can reduce the duration of the illness by 8% in adults and 14% in children. Practically, that means that supplementing vitamin C can shorten the duration of a cold by about one day. Participants in each study supplemented vitamin C for varying periods, but generally, the daily dose was at least 200 milligrams.

 

 

Several of the reviewed studies included people under intense physical stress, including marathon runners and soldiers training in the Arctic. Among these individuals, those who took vitamin C were about half as likely to catch a cold as those who did not take such supplements. But in the general population, the supplements did not prevent the common cold.

 

"If there's going to be an advantage, it's going to be very modest," Schaffner said.

 

Ya, because no one wants a "modest" advantage during a pandemic   One might wonder whether adding several of these "modest" advantages together might result in a significant advantage.  But what do I know, I haven't conducted any 20 year long clinical trials and then refused to disclose any of the data.  So clearly not an expert by the standards of the day.

 

[Daniel Cooper]

Ya, because no one wants a "modest" advantage during a pandemic   One might wonder whether adding several of these "modest" advantages together might result in a significant advantage.  But what do I know, I haven't conducted any 20 year long clinical trials and then refused to disclose any of the data.  So clearly not an expert by the standards of the day.

 

Clearly Italy wouldn't want to shave 8% off it's current death total.  7,503 death ..... 8% ....... that's only 600 people.  Hardly seems worth the effort.  

[OP2040]

Exactly.  Some of the confusion seems to be that the media quite correctly says that these things won't prevent an infection.  That may be right, however, we already know something like 50-70% of people will get this virus.  A lot of the studies show quite impressive stats for after infection, something like cutting the number of symptomatic days down by 3-4 days, or decreasing all manner of symptoms and complications.  And they are ALL based on just one substance, not multiple.  If we can reasonably say that an immune boost is evident, bring it back to IRL and you are saving hundreds or maybe thousands of lives with quite simple measures.   At this point my biggest fear is that should I be admitted to hospital God forbid, I will have no control over my own convalescence. 

 

It's now well established that the virus compromises the immune system, specifically reducing NK and T-cell numbers.  And secondly, those people who avoid this reduction in immune function do much, much better.

 

I'm really counting on AHCC more than anything else.  It has proven time and again (alongside other mushrooms), study after study, to increase NK levels and have antiviral action.  Most studies are based on HPV, but NK cells are specifically important for viral infections and no reason to believe that higher isn't better. 

[OP2040]

It's not looking like seasonality will be a big factor with Coronavirus but it could help.  Social distancing could be said to be a form of enforced seasonality.  Add vitamin D and a humidifier to that, as that covers the main three hypotheses for seasonality of some viruses. 

[albedo]

I am scared of this maybe even more than the health impact of coronavirus itself. What do you think?

 unemployment.jpg   25.18KB   3 downloads

[ymc]

I am scared of this maybe even more than the health impact of coronavirus itself. What do you think?

unemployment.jpg

 

I think UBI programs are needed during this trying time.

[Robert Magnuson]

Please see this petition at Change.org

 

http://chng.it/nBGJZxYQHx

 

Title: China is Resolving Coronavirus with Vitamin C Injections. Demand the Same for the USA! 

[Keizo]

Donald will soon announce the covid19 vaccine, it will be bigly. Believe me.