123 replies to this topic

[Florin]

"The majority of patients recover form #COVID19 infection, with or without #Hchloroquine and #Azithromycin treatment."

 

Full quote:

 

 

“This is an observational study (i.e. not controlled) following 80 patients with fairly mild symptoms. The majority of patients recover form #COVID19 infection, with or without #Hchloroquine and #Azithromycin treatment.”

 

Not good.

[Mind]

Full quote:

 

 

Not good.

 

Agreed. Not enough patients yet to draw a conclusion.

[Florin]

Agreed. Not enough patients yet to draw a conclusion.

 

The bigger problem is that those patients had "fairly mild symptoms" to begin with. If those same patients were on death's door but after being given the magic elixir miraculously recovered, I'd be a bit more impressed.

[Robert Magnuson]

"The bigger problem is that those patients had "fairly mild symptoms" to begin with. If those same patients were on death's door but after being given the magic elixir miraculously recovered, I'd be a bit more impressed."

 

Please see the video (linked in the Petition below) of the Australian man with whited out lungs (Swine flu, but the same occurs with covid-19). He was about to be unplugged from life support and left to die. But his family got a court order to force the hospital to give him Vitamin C injections. His lungs soon started to clear up and he got off of the breathing tube, and with continued Vitamin C (e.g. liposome encapsulated) returned to good health:

 

Please sign this urgent coronavirus petition at Change.org

 

http://chng.it/nBGJZxYQHx

 

Title: China is Resolving Coronavirus with Vitamin C Injections. Demand the Same for the USA! 

 

It will require 100,000 signatures to petition the White House, but fewer for others.

[Mind]

Here is a forum where I posted a link to my first intro video. Discuss the content/quality/etc. over there.

 

The video series is for getting a wider audience of people (and media) focused on solutions/treatments/cures, instead of just following the drama of the crisis.

[Florin]

Who knows what's going on in China. But what South Korea's doing is a lot more impressive than some guy's recovery.

[Robert Magnuson]

"Who knows what's going on in China. But what South Korea's doing is a lot more impressive than some guy's recovery."

 

Reply:

​The "some guy's recovery" is the story of a great many people who had the advantage of doctors who administered Vitamin C injections to their patients over decades. See the talks by Dr. Thomas Levy on YouTube.

 

Some doctors in NY are giving Vitamin C injections for Covid-19. They are having good success. See the link to the Global Research article in the Petition:

http://chng.it/nBGJZxYQHx

 

But not many doctors in NY are doing this. I hope folks in this forum will sign the petition, and share it with others, because a great many signatures are needed to raise awareness and save lives with this non-toxic treatment.

. 

[resveratrol_guy]

The bigger problem is that those patients had "fairly mild symptoms" to begin with. If those same patients were on death's door but after being given the magic elixir miraculously recovered, I'd be a bit more impressed.

 

Well, OK, I don't want to get lost in Raoult's approach when it's actually our enhanced Zelenko therapy that should be offered in the clinic for early stage patients.
 

[resveratrol_guy]

I have sent him many emails via many different ways, I received ZERO reply from him. 

 

Good on you!

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Dr. Rider is wound up in some intellectual property mess, perhaps involving regulatory bodies. His lack of public engagement on this is frankly unethical. He's morally beholden to the public to at least explain his silence, having taken so much of its time and money. If it just didn't work, it would be easy to say that, and perhaps ask for funding for a modified approach, which is why I suspect this is about legal issues. He's not even responsible enough to say that he can't yet discuss anything due to pending litigation. Unfortunately, we can't choose our geniuses.
 

[Florin]

Well, OK, I don't want to get lost in Raoult's approach when it's actually our enhanced Zelenko therapy that should be offered in the clinic for early stage patients.
 

 

Zelenko has the same kind of problem.

[resveratrol_guy]

Zelenko has the same kind of problem.

 

Abstractly, but not concretely. Zelenko's sample size is an order of magnitude larger and his approach is better supported in theory.
 

[mike_ag]

I feel that Raoult's observational paper is majorly overlooked. Unlike Zelenko, he provides statistics based on COVID+ tested people, not only people  " showing symptoms of COVID".

 

I understand 80 people is very small, but now his latest numbers (published on twitter, not documented yet) show 1003 patients treated (and still 1 death). 

 

I see people quoting a tweet from Francois Balloux saying : " This is an observational study (i.e. not controlled) following 80 patients with fairly mild symptoms "

 

Fairly mild ? This is not what I understand from Raoul's paper  ... 

But I'm a noob and I might very well be missing something. I'd be happy if someone points me to what part of the paper is describing people having mild symptoms.

 

Some quotes from the Raoult's study : 

 

"  The median age of patients was 52 years (ranging from 18 to 88 years) with a M/F sex ratio of 1.1. 57.5% of these patients had at least one chronic condition known to be a risk factor for the severe form of COVID-19 with hypertension, diabetes and chronic respiratory disease being the most frequent."

 

" 53.8% of patients presented with LRTI symptoms and 41.2% with URTI symptoms. Only 15% of patients were febrile. Four patients were asymptomatic carriers. The majority of patients had a low NEWS score (92%) and 53.8% of patients had LDCT compatible with pneumonia."

 

53,8% had a CT scan revealing pneumonia, if I understand correctly. How can that be mild symptoms ? 

 

Link to Raoult's observational paper : https://www.mediterr...VID-IHU-2-1.pdf

[mike_ag]

To follow up on my last message, I did do some research on the classification of the symptoms, trying to understand what scientists/doctors mean by " mild " or " moderate " symptoms of Covid.

It seems indeed that some people consider pneumonia to be a " mild " symptom, and symptoms are considered" severe " when there is ARDS. 

 

Nevertheless, Raoult's paper shows that people with pneumonia can avoid deteriorating and going to ICUs, that's very promising.

 

 

Edited by mike_ag, 31 March 2020 - 12:19 PM.

[hotbit]

Hi Mind,

 

Looking for solutions

 

What strikes me, is the lack of data. For general statistics, I found https://www.worldome...fo/coronavirus/ to be better than Hopkins Uni, at least a week or so ago it was much better. But how bad both of them are. For a country, we get a number of confirmed cases and deaths, but often lack any knowledge about the number of tests per million citizens and any more in-depth information about either demographics or deaths. This already shows how little we know.

 

I would like to see an open source database. Patient age, blood potassium levels, medications used, BP, etc, etc. We could use statistical tools or machine learning to learn more and maybe find solutions.

 

What I see is organization chaos and lack of data. With just a few hundred to few thousand of confirmed cases national health services were already screaming, I guess more due to panic than real pressure of the pandemics. But no of cases is growing rapidly, and things will get even worse.

Governments have asked F1 teams and car manufacturers to help building more ventilators. I wonder how preventive methods or cures, apart of laughed off two centuries ago Semmelweis' washing hands, can be found in this chaos and within the darkness of the lack of data collection and sharing.

 

[DanCG]

Good on you!

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Dr. Rider is wound up in some intellectual property mess, perhaps involving regulatory bodies. His lack of public engagement on this is frankly unethical. He's morally beholden to the public to at least explain his silence, having taken so much of its time and money. If it just didn't work, it would be easy to say that, and perhaps ask for funding for a modified approach, which is why I suspect this is about legal issues. He's not even responsible enough to say that he can't yet discuss anything due to pending litigation. Unfortunately, we can't choose our geniuses.
 

He had 3 patents that covered various aspects of the technology. 2 of them have lapsed for failure to pay maintenance fees. Companies let patents lapse to save money. The fact that he is maintaining one probably means he is still hoping to bring something to market.

[resveratrol_guy]

He had 3 patents that covered various aspects of the technology. 2 of them have lapsed for failure to pay maintenance fees. Companies let patents lapse to save money. The fact that he is maintaining one probably means he is still hoping to bring something to market.

 

You don't bring something to market by ignoring inquiries about your technology. And if you've already inked an exclusive deal, you don't advertise the patent as though you're still up for a discussion. He's being socially irresponsible. Definitely shooting himself in the foot, and perhaps millions of potential patients as well. He needs to be called to account, but in the absence of any crime, it's hard to imagine how to get him to say anything.
 

[resveratrol_guy]

On the plus side, it seems as though COVID19 now has an expiration date, which is something like December. Dr. Jacob Glanville's team at Distributed Bio in San Diego has successfully generated a set of 5 monoclonal antibodies with strong binding affinity for COVID19. This isn't exactly a new idea, but the team started with preexisting antibodies which are known to bind with SARS, a cousin of COVID19. Moreover, it's expected that the antibodies (or at least one of them) will bind with related coronavirusses that we might encounter in the future. Essentially nothing is expected in terms of dangerous side effects, based on what we already know about the therapy.

 

The antibodies should remain in circulation for about 2 months, providing prophylactic care to healthcare workers, and viral remission for their patients within a matter of days. (Dr. Raoult mentioned that he thinks the severe cases are largely free of the virus and instead involve the immune system engaged in a cytokine storm. Why rapamycin or even lipidated curcumin aren't being tried in such patients is inexplicable to me. But in any event, antibodies wouldn't be useful for them if his theory is correct; this applies in particular to young people who are not immunocompromised. In theory, though, no one would have a chance to advance to that stage, provided that the antibodies were administered immediately upon receipt of a positive test for the virus.)

 

The technology is well enough explored that I think it's all but certain to work. The challenge is more about scaling. It sounds like they're planning to start manufacturing soon, although they first need to obtain money, most likely from the US government, in addition to coping with some level of red tape around trials in the US and elsewhere. Looking at current projections, it sounds like they might clip as much as 20% of the deaths off of the long tail decline of this virus.

 

Their intention is to enable compassionate use in September, which means potential global distribution in roughly December.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=AV-nWT2VLuI

 

[resveratrol_guy]

Extensive interview with Zelenko on his recent experiments. First posted here by Engadin. The interviewer is Rudy Guliani, which likely means that the US administration is now aware of the proposed therapy. I have nothing to say one way or another about the politics. I'm purely interested in therapeutic research and deployment. Interview starts around 1:20. Seems to have been produced shortly before he published the paper about the 699 patients.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=1TJdjhd_XG8

 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 01 April 2020 - 01:49 AM.

[davejam]

Yeah, my biggest frustration in this whole thing is that the news drones on and on with the same information.  The official news conferences are about the same.

They need to be pressing hard for real information and accountability on potential treatments and talk about nothing else.

I'm afraid on the one hand they need to listen to experts about social distancing and stay at home orders, but on the other hand the experts refuse to talk about treatment until there are studies conducted and concluded.

Can the dying really afford to wait?

 

This is a real failure of the US government, health system, pharmaceutical companies, etc...maybe enough to promote change after the fact, but probably not.

 

 

Anyway that turned a bit political...moral of the story is follow this thread, seek other information, make informed decisions in preparation of sickness and in the event of sickness demand experimental treatment.

 

[BioHacker=Life]

DRACO may be the solution. Good luck getting Todd Rider to say anything at all. (I invite you to try. See https://riderinstitute.org .) I get the sense that he's been beaten into a corner by risk-averse health authorities, or possibly even MIT itself. What a tragically wasted opportunity in the making.

 

It always struck me as odd how he's been essentially silent on the matter since shortly after failing to raise $100K for rat studies a few years back.

 

I'm not a conspiracy theorist here, in the sense that I don't think there's a secret deep state gang trying to silence him. I suspect he's being impeded for more obvious reasons, perhaps involving ordinary and expected FDA cease-and-desist orders.

 

I do not think the problem is fundamentally technological. DRACO is definitely worth a mention and brief overview in the proposed video. So too is his website, so we can flood him with pleas to speak up. Rider is brilliant. I can hardly imagine that the potential use for COVID19 has failed to cross his mind.

 

New petition for DRACO

 

https://www.change.o...d-19/u/26085359

 

Let's get Elon Musk onboard for this if anyone will fund it it's him.

[Florin]

New petition for DRACO

 

https://www.change.o...d-19/u/26085359

 

Let's get Elon Musk onboard for this if anyone will fund it it's him.

 

What's with the DRACO obsession? There's plenty of other similar stuff out there that might be easier to get a hold of.

[BioHacker=Life]

What's with the DRACO obsession? There's plenty of other similar stuff out there that might be easier to get a hold of.

 

From your link

 

 

1. Birinapant had it's only phase 1 study in Hep B canceled. No animal studies or other studies in any other virus, no ongoing research is being made and it's not available anywhere. https://clinicaltria...how/NCT02288208

 

2. antiviral nanoparticles never made it to even animal studies and no drug company is currently doing any research on them towards FDA approval.

 

3. protein-based viral prophylaxis is pure theory no ongoing research, they were never created, no research. May offer protection not a treatment or cure.

 

4. β-defensin-4 no animal research no ongoing research. No one makes it.

 

DRACO cured all mice studied with viral infections. Pharma did not want to fund it.

 

Seems no one want to fund anything that replaces many drugs on the market for prevention, treatment, cure, or symptoms. It's alot of money.

Edited by BioHacker=Life, 04 April 2020 - 07:38 AM.

[Mind]

Yeah, my biggest frustration in this whole thing is that the news drones on and on with the same information.  The official news conferences are about the same.

They need to be pressing hard for real information and accountability on potential treatments and talk about nothing else.

I'm afraid on the one hand they need to listen to experts about social distancing and stay at home orders, but on the other hand the experts refuse to talk about treatment until there are studies conducted and concluded.

Can the dying really afford to wait?

 

This is a real failure of the US government, health system, pharmaceutical companies, etc...maybe enough to promote change after the fact, but probably not.

 

 

Anyway that turned a bit political...moral of the story is follow this thread, seek other information, make informed decisions in preparation of sickness and in the event of sickness demand experimental treatment.

 

I am glad I am not the only one who thinks this. That is why I want to get a bigger social media push going for treatments.

 

What I see is a large apparatus of record-keepers and statisticians running the show right now. The CDC, WHO, state heatlh departments, etc... are all large bureaucracies that have been kept afloat through the years for an instance such as this. The record-keeping and tracking is very important, of course, but the apparatus is not built for the real end-game which is treatments and cures.

 

Social distancing and "flattening the curve" are methods as old as human history. They are the least sophisticated, least imaginative, most sub-optimal solutions. These solutions are what you do when you have nothing else.

 

In today's world we have so much more. We have in-depth knowledge of the human immune system and all of the medications, peptides, and nutrients that modulate it. We have supercomputers. We have testing. And so much more.

[sciack]

Full quote:

 

 

Not good.

For it is not bad in this unexpected pandemic. Guys we are not in normal times, we cannot do a controlled study with people risking their lives? Do you want to give to 50% of them a placebo and then seeing them diying? Come on... for me these are good studies, we have several 80 patients here, 200 there, 699 there, etc... enough to think that’s a good possible treatment. We just need to invest more to study maybe the side effects, even if we already have a good case study with all the lupus patients taking this drug for years.

[Florin]

1. Birinapant had it's only phase 1 study in Hep B canceled. No animal studies or other studies in any other virus, no ongoing research is being made and it's not available anywhere. https://clinicaltria...how/NCT02288208

 

Ignoring any mechanistic stuff, the only advantage that DRACO has over birinapant is that it was tested on different viruses in vitro. DRACO was tested against just a single virus in vivo just like birinapant.

 

The advantage that birinapant might have over DRACO is that it's safety profile in humans is known (it has been studied in many Phase 1 and 2 trials but the HBV trial was canceled due to patients developing cranial nerve palsies). If the cranial nerve palsy thing can be resolved, it might be available for licensing from Medivir.

 

Even if birinapant is taken off the table as an antiviral, there are probably other similar cIAPs out there like APG-1387. And fortunately, APG-1387's HBV Phase 1 trial was completed this year.

[ledgf]

New paper shows that ivermectin kills SARS-CoV-2 in cell culture... now all we need is a study to compare similar groups of ivermectin vs. non-ivermectin using people and see what their virus death rate is. 
 

This really should be a two-day project... there are tens of millions of people on ivermectin for worms anyway.

https://www.scienced...5WI-qyeTXo_Eh14

[Florin]

2. antiviral nanoparticles never made it to even animal studies and no drug company is currently doing any research on them towards FDA approval.

 

Actually, MUS:OT nanoparticles have been tested on mice. And they've also been tested against different kinds of viruses in vitro. I don't know if any company is interested in this stuff, but no ones seems interested in DRACO either.

 

https://www.research...ition_mechanism

[BioHacker=Life]

Ignoring any mechanistic stuff, the only advantage that DRACO has over birinapant is that it was tested on different viruses in vitro. DRACO was tested against just a single virus in vivo just like birinapant.

 

The advantage that birinapant might have over DRACO is that it's safety profile in humans is known (it has been studied in many Phase 1 and 2 trials but the HBV trial was canceled due to patients developing cranial nerve palsies). If the cranial nerve palsy thing can be resolved, it might be available for licensing from Medivir.

 

Even if birinapant is taken off the table as an antiviral, there are probably other similar cIAPs out there like APG-1387. And fortunately, APG-1387's HBV Phase 1 trial was completed this year.

 

If birinapant caused nerve damage it's safety is questionable. Can you cite the birinapant study in mice? Aside from Hep B I've seen nothing to indicate it or APG-1387 would be effective in other viral infections. I've seen nothing to suggest DRACO should not be funded to the next stage.

[Florin]

3. protein-based viral prophylaxis is pure theory no ongoing research, they were never created, no research. May offer protection not a treatment or cure.

 

4. β-defensin-4 no animal research no ongoing research. No one makes it.

 

We don't really know what's going on with PVP. PVP could be a generic/newly-created term and you might need to contact the PI for more info.

 

Regarding #4, "P9 protected mice against lethal challenge of H1N1 virus." No ongoing research? No one makes it? Are you sure?

 

Have you looked for other similar stuff?

[BioHacker=Life]

Actually, MUS:OT nanoparticles have been tested on mice. And they've also been tested against different kinds of viruses in vitro. I don't know if any company is interested in this stuff, but no ones seems interested in DRACO either.

 

https://www.research...ition_mechanism

 

Conclusions We believe that the approach presented here has a chance to produce medically relevant virucidal drugs to fight viral infections. See Supplementary Discussion for the extension of this work to biodegradable nanoparticles. The results found so far show outstanding virucidal activity over HSV-2 and LS-VSV-G, whereas the activity versus HPV and RSV, although remarkable, should be improved.

 

 

Hmm. remarkable results but needs work to be improved doesn't sound like a cure like DRACO.

 

In vivo activity To provide the proof of concept that MUS:OT-NPs could exert inhibitory activity also in vivo, we tested them in Balb/c mice infected with RSV42. Three groups of 5 BALB/c mice were treated at day 0 with 50 µl of PBS, 50 µl of PBS, or MUS:OT-NPs in PBS (50 µl at 200 µg ml−1 ) in the latter two cases this was followed, 10 min later, by inoculation with RSV-Luc (104 PFU). Three days post-infection the luciferase expression in the lungs was analysed as a measure of the extent of infection. As shown in Fig. 4d,e, untreated mice show a clear pulmonary dissemination of RSV infection. By contrast, the luciferase signal from the lungs of the MUS:OT-NPs-treated group was found to be statistically identical to the noise level set by the signal of uninfected mice treated solely with a PBS solution, indicating that MUS:OT-NPs treatment prevented the pulmonary dissemination of the infection.

 

 

 

So they infected them and treated them the same day? Seems to suggest it can prevent an infection from taking hold but does not seem they tested the mice past 3 days. Where DRACO found and destroyed infected cells. The latter approach would seem to be more effective in viruses that hide like hiv, herpes, etc which are ineffectively cured by antiviral drugs. More research is needed but I don't see any pharma companies willing to pay for it.

 

https://clinicaltria...how/NCT03585322 looks like 2 years later there's still no results from APG-1387's study. I wonder why.