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Advice that masks don't help for coronavirus woefully wrong?

masks coronavirus

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#151 pamojja

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Posted 01 September 2020 - 05:04 PM

It is interesting that sociopaths/psychopaths are pretty common, comprising about 1% of the general population, about 3% of corporate boardrooms (sociopaths are good at gravitating to the top in companies), and around 7% in prisons.

 

Today there was a revealing situation during shopping at a mall. Don't watch or listen to news, therefore didn't knew the masking mandate had been lifted today. Resultlng in only 1% of shoppers with masks.  :-D 

 

Empathy, of course, is the ability to sense the emotion present in an other person. It however only is possible of one isn't competely dissociated from one's own feelings first. So it indeed seems 99% aren't dissociated, but in touch with themself, and therefore others too.


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#152 Hip

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Posted 01 September 2020 - 05:46 PM

Empathy, of course, is the ability to sense the emotion present in an other person. It however only is possible of one isn't competely dissociated from one's own feelings first. So it indeed seems 99% aren't dissociated, but in touch with themself, and therefore others too.

 

Empathy is a bit more than that: it's the ability to sense another person's thoughts, feelings, instincts, values, attitudes, beliefs, opinions, and cognitive style. In short, it's the ability to imagine what it's like to be in another person's mind.

 

 

One important feature of empathy (a feature which is absent in sympathy), is the fact that when another person is suffering for any reason, the empathetic person will also suffer themself.

 

In this respect, empathy is as much as a burden as an asset, as it means you will suffer when you see other's suffer. 

 

People who are sympathetic can detect the emotions of others (if that emotion is shown on the other's face, eg crying), and sympathetic people can provide a shoulder to lean on if that other person is suffering; but sympathetic people do not directly suffer themselves when the other person is suffering. This is one feature that differentiates sympathy from empathy.


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#153 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 01 September 2020 - 06:34 PM

 

Psychopaths also make efficient army soldiers: most ordinary military recruits find it hard to shoot enemy solders when they first go into battle, initially often deliberately aiming their rifles over the heads of the enemy, because normal human beings don't like to kill other human beings. It's a big thing to kill another person, if you have not done that before. But you find killing others does not bother psychopaths much, so they make enthusiastic solders. 
 

 

If militaries had to rely on psychopaths (about 1% of the population) then their ranks would be awfully thin.

 

We're getting off topic here, but that's a broad statement to say that "human beings don't like to kill other human beings".  I don't find a lot to support that in recorded history.  We are after all the product of 4 billion years of survival of the fittest.

 

Most human beings will not go out of their way to kill other human beings for no reason. But let me assure you, most humans are psychologically capable of killing another human if their own life depends on it.  It's difficult to see how evolution would produce any other outcome.


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#154 Hip

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Posted 01 September 2020 - 07:26 PM

 that's a broad statement to say that "human beings don't like to kill other human beings".  

 

You might find this article of interest:

Surveys of WWII infantrymen carried out by U.S. Army Brig. Gen. S.L.A. Marshall found that only 15 to 20 percent had fired their weapons in combat, even when ordered to do so. Marshall concluded that most soldiers avoid firing at the enemy because they fear killing as well as being killed. "The average and healthy individual," Marshall contended in his postwar book Men Against Fire, "has such an inner and usually unrealized resistance towards killing a fellow man that he will not of his own volition take life if it is possible to turn away from that responsibility

 

The reluctance of ordinary men to kill can be overcome by intensified training, direct commands from officers, long-range weapons and propaganda that glorifies the soldier's cause and dehumanizes the enemy. "With the proper conditioning and the proper circumstances, it appears that almost anyone can and will kill," Grossman writes. Many soldiers who kill enemies in battle are initially exhilarated, Grossman says, but later they often feel profound revulsion and remorse, which may transmute into post-traumatic stress disorder and other ailments. Indeed, Grossman believes that the troubles experienced by many combat veterans are evidence of a "powerful, innate human resistance toward killing one's own species."

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#155 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 01 September 2020 - 08:18 PM

15% ~ 20% firing their weapon would imply that most were not psychopaths, given a prevalence of ~1% in the general population, no?  These were after all draftees and so I have trouble explaining this via self selection.  

 

Also, there are two reasons not to fire your weapon - a.) you don't want to kill b.) you're keeping your head down so you won't be killed.

 

Humans are generally willing to kill to preserve their own life.  There has been a strong selection pressure against humans who were not.  And they are generally willing to kill those they can be convinced are a threat.

 

We in the West feel that it is the natural state of man to be empathetic and kind.  But look at the level of violence in the world as a whole.  Likely within your own life the Hutus killed upward of a million Tutsi.  In the last century Maoists killed 20 ~ 50 million Chinese.  The Stalinists killed 10 to 20 million. The Nazis killed tens of millions of Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, and homosexuals.  

 

Mass killing is going on today in Sudan, Central Africa, and until very recently Christians and Yazidi were being slaughtered by the thousands in Iraq.

 

I don't look at the state of man and see a great reluctance towards killing.  It is only in the areas where the culture heavily sanctions killing that I see a reluctance which is at best a thin veneer.  It is only when and where you live that gives you the impression that humans abhor killing.

 

But, we're really straying off topic here.

 

 


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#156 Florin

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 03:38 AM

Mask Wearers Are “Dramatically Less Likely” to Get a Severe Case of Covid-19
https://www.inverse....u-get-less-sick


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#157 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 01:14 PM

Mask Wearers Are “Dramatically Less Likely” to Get a Severe Case of Covid-19
https://www.inverse....u-get-less-sick

 

 

That's interesting.

 

But I have to wonder, is the reason that they get less sick when they get the corona virus because they got a smaller initial dose, or is it because mask wearers are generally more health conscious, take better care of themselves, and therefore have fewer co-morbidities? 

 

I suppose you'd have to survey the population differences between mask wearers and non mask wearers.


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#158 Florin

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Posted 02 September 2020 - 08:45 PM

That's interesting.

 

But I have to wonder, is the reason that they get less sick when they get the corona virus because they got a smaller initial dose, or is it because mask wearers are generally more health conscious, take better care of themselves, and therefore have fewer co-morbidities? 

 

I suppose you'd have to survey the population differences between mask wearers and non mask wearers.

 

I suspect that the answer is that a smaller dose is the most important factor. The best observational evidence is the usual suspects: Japan, SK, HK, and Taiwan. Another paper also claims that masks (along with international travel restrictions) are the most important factor in limiting mortality in a lot of other countries as well.

 

Association of country-wide coronavirus mortality with demographics, testing, lockdowns, and public wearing of masks.
https://www.medrxiv....5.22.20109231v5


Edited by Florin, 02 September 2020 - 08:46 PM.

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#159 Mind

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 03:52 PM

 

 

There’s an old joke in physics where a farmer wants to increase milk production, and asks his physicist neighbor for advice. She agrees to think about the problem, and after a week comes back declaring she’s found a brilliant solution. “The first step is to get some spherical cows that can breed in a vacuum.” The point of the joke is physicists often make wildly unphysical assumptions when creating physical models, such as assuming cows are spherical.

 

Masks are the "spherical cow" of pandemic response. In the real world, people need to eat, they want to hug each other, they want to have parties and be intimate. Viruses (including Covid-19) spread mostly in close contact situations in the home. SK, HK, and Japan, continue to have outbreaks (significant at times) even though they wear masks the most.

 

Herd immunity for a very low mortality rate virus like COVID, seems like a better long-term solution (while protecting - or rejuvenating - the frail elderly and morbidly obese). Sweden continues to have very low, near zero, deaths over the last month-and-a-half with no mask mandate, with businesses open, with schools open.

 

Would you rather live in Sweden with near normal life and more freedom, or live in a country that arrests and fines you for not wearing a mask (or other extreme PPE which is probably arriving soon), under the false assumption that masks are the greatest solution ever to stop a pandemic.


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#160 Florin

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 06:08 PM

Yes, masks seem to be the greatest solution ever to stop a pandemic. Compared to Sweden, SK, HK, Taiwan, and Japan have had no significant amount of deaths or outbreaks. Most of the +190k deaths in the US could've been avoid if everyone wore masks from the beginning. If mask wearing continues beyond the end of this pandemic, it may also help to cut down on flu season morbidity and mortality.

 

Rather than repeating the arguments that were rebutted many times before, I'd like to see you actually reply to those rebuttals.

 

https://ourworldinda...pickerSort=desc

https://ourworldinda...pickerSort=desc


Edited by Florin, 03 September 2020 - 06:08 PM.

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#161 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 06:13 PM

Yes, masks seem to be the greatest solution ever to stop a pandemic. Compared to Sweden, SK, HK, Taiwan, and Japan have had no significant amount of deaths or outbreaks. Most of the +190k deaths in the US could've been avoid if everyone wore masks from the beginning. If mask wearing continues beyond the end of this pandemic, it may also help to cut down on flu season morbidity and mortality.

 

Rather than repeating the arguments that were rebutted many times before, I'd like to see you actually reply to those rebuttals.

 

https://ourworldinda...pickerSort=desc

https://ourworldinda...pickerSort=desc

 

What about Germany?  They don't have a particularly high rate of masking (~60% if memory serves) and they aren't particularly locked down.

 

And yet, they have a very low rate of covid infection.

 

Why skip that data point?


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#162 Florin

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Posted 03 September 2020 - 09:35 PM

Germany started its lockdown on 3/23 but didn't mandate masks until 4/27. And guess what happened. Yeah, it performed better than Sweden but worse than SK, HK, Taiwan, and Japan.

 

https://ourworldinda...pickerSort=desc

https://ourworldinda...pickerSort=desc


Edited by Florin, 03 September 2020 - 09:40 PM.

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#163 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 04 September 2020 - 06:40 AM

....

 

... the false assumption that masks are the greatest solution ever to stop a pandemic.

 

For pandemics as general maybe right,

for the current COVID19 pandemic I am now absolutely convinced, that the masks are indeed the greatest solution ever to stop it. With the addition, that the filter must be good enough and the mask has to fit perfectly on the face.
Why am I that much convinced? Because I see directly what's happening through the medical class in my country and what are they shareing each-other.

Here a sample citing:

"The boss of the clinic was coronaviru positive without knowing it. We operated together for hours face to face above the patient, all of the working days of the week, day after day for two weeks. I and the operation team, and the anstesiologyst, we all weared masks, and we are all negative. "

I am crammed with citings like that.


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#164 Mind

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 10:45 PM

Yes, masks seem to be the greatest solution ever to stop a pandemic. Compared to Sweden, SK, HK, Taiwan, and Japan have had no significant amount of deaths or outbreaks. Most of the +190k deaths in the US could've been avoid if everyone wore masks from the beginning. If mask wearing continues beyond the end of this pandemic, it may also help to cut down on flu season morbidity and mortality.

 

Rather than repeating the arguments that were rebutted many times before, I'd like to see you actually reply to those rebuttals.

 

https://ourworldinda...pickerSort=desc

https://ourworldinda...pickerSort=desc

 

If everyone wears hazmat suits with respirators all the time, maybe there will never be any viral illnesses.


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#165 geo12the

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Posted 07 September 2020 - 04:41 PM

I think people overthink the mask thing. You don't need to wear them all the time. Only when it makers sense, like when you are shopping or in an office or whatever. We know the virus is spread by droplets. Masks help block the droplets. I don't understand the phony righteous indignation against them. 


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#166 Hip

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Posted 07 September 2020 - 07:02 PM

 I don't understand the phony righteous indignation against them. 

 

Neither do I, but it seems to me that the human race is increasingly arranging itself so whenever one group of people or authority propose a certain idea or action, another group immediately forms to counter that idea or action!

 

Even if a divine being came down from Heaven, and put all Earthly wrongs right, abolishing disease, ill health, poverty, crime and unhappiness, you'd get a counter group forming, saying "who does this God person think he is, interfering with human life in this way". 


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#167 Mind

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Posted 30 September 2020 - 04:45 PM

No mask mandate in Sweden or Denmark. Things are fine now and have been for a couple of months (in Sweden). https://21stcenturyw...ing-in-schools/ They aren't playing into the mass-hysteria. They know who is vulnerable. They know the average healthy person does not have much to worry about (mortality rate less than the flu for people under 50 - according to the CDC).

 

A mask mandate went into effect where I live, a couple months ago, cases increased, now higher than ever.


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#168 Dorian Grey

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 02:43 PM

Now they're saying phooey on fomites.  

 

https://www.dailymai...earch-says.html

 

'You CAN'T catch coronavirus from door handles': Deadly germ does not appear to spread through surfaces such as light switches or table tops, research suggests

 

Monica Gandhi, a professor of medicine at the University of California, said ‘the surface issue has essentially gone away’

 

----------------

 

If this is true, it's a rather ominous finding.  If fomites really are a minor vector, and plague is spreading, even with indoor masking now the norm, this means we're likely dealing with aerosol transmission as the most common mode of contagion.  A tight fitting N-95 may be effective at containing some/most aerosols, but the loose fitting masks hanging open at the top we now see everywhere would be largely futile.  

 

 


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#169 Florin

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 07:13 PM

No mask mandate in Sweden or Denmark. Things are fine now and have been for a couple of months (in Sweden). https://21stcenturyw...ing-in-schools/ They aren't playing into the mass-hysteria. They know who is vulnerable. They know the average healthy person does not have much to worry about (mortality rate less than the flu for people under 50 - according to the CDC).

 

"Maskless" Sweden (which continues to have elevated deaths) and Denmark (which has experienced a recent increase in deaths) got—and continues to be—crushed by mask-wearing Japan, SK, and Taiwan.

 

But how maskless are these countries in reality? One survey claims that mask wearing in Sweden has fluctuated between 56% and 78% and in Denmark between 65% and 86%. Unlike Sweden, Denmark recommends masks. And Denmark has a lower excess deaths than Sweden.

 

https://ourworldinda...&pickerSort=asc

https://today.yougov...-avoid-covid-19

https://www.euromomo...graphs-and-maps

https://masks4all.co...asks-in-public/


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#170 pamojja

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 07:50 PM

re: crushed by mask-wearing Japan, SK, and Taiwan.
 
Japan: 7 daily covid-deaths, 7-day average
Souh Korea: 3 daily covid-deaths, 7-day average
Taiwan: 0 daily covid-deaths, 7-day average
 
re: "Maskless" Sweden (which continues to have elevated deaths) and Denmark (which has experienced a recent increase in deaths)
 
Sweden: 1 daily covid-deaths, 7-day average
Denmark: 1 daily covid-deaths, 7-day average
 
https://www.worldome...fo/coronavirus/
 
re: One survey claims that mask wearing in Sweden has fluctuated between 56% and 78% and in Denmark between 65% and 86%.
 

 Dr. Malcolm Kendricks:

More COVID19 news from Sweden
316 Replies

A few weeks ago, an emergency physician working in Sweden, Dr. Sebastian Rushworth, asked me if I would be willing to replicate an article from his blog on mine. I was more than happy; it was a great article. The only problem being that his writing puts mine to shame – in a second language. Although he did later tell me he had been to boarding school in England for several years. So, I feel a bit better. If not much.

He has now done an update, outlining how things are getting along in Sweden. I thought it would be of great interest for people to get news from the front line, so to speak.

As many of us know Sweden, alone in Western Europe, decided not to impose a tough lockdown. In fact, the only forcible restriction that was imposed was to ban people meeting in groups of more than fifty. Slightly later, a further restriction was placed on nursing home visits.

 

Apart from this, all other Government recommendations were purely voluntary [Imagine that, a Government treating its citizens as responsible human beings].
When Sebastian wrote to me recently, I sent him back this e-mail.

 

“Great article. Could you send it in Word format? I will obviously link back to your blog.

 

Also, would it be possible to put in an additional section – to go at the front of the piece – as to what measures were taken in Sweden, and what the average person in Sweden actually did. The narrative we now have (from the pro-Lockdown lobby) is that the people of Sweden, being so law-abiding and community aware, essentially locked themselves down.

 

Which meant that the Swedish partial lockdown was more effective than, for example, the UK ‘harsh’ lockdown. Because the Swedes self-policed themselves, and the Brits did not. This is usually stated with great confidence from people who provide no evidence to back this assertion up. People who have probably never been to Sweden, nor ever talked to anyone from Sweden, and probably couldn’t point to Sweden on a map.

 

I understand schools stayed open, bars and restaurants stayed open. Gatherings of more than five hundred people were prohibited etc. What did Swedes do with masks, and going to work, for example? I think that information directly from the front line in Sweden, on these things, would be useful for people to know.”

So, Sebastian added a bit onto the front as follows:

 

“At the beginning of August I wrote an article about my experiences working as an emergency physician in Stockholm, Sweden during the COVID pandemic. For those who are unaware, Sweden never went into full lockdown. Instead, the country imposed a partial lockdown that was almost entirely voluntary. People with office jobs were recommended to work from home, and people in general were recommended to avoid public transport unless necessary. Those who were over seventy years old, or who had serious underlying conditions, were recommended to limit social contacts.

 

The only forcible restriction imposed by the government from the start was a requirement that people not gather in groups of more than fifty at a time. After it became clear that COVID was above all dangerous to people in nursing homes, an additional restriction was placed on nursing home visits.

 

At no time has there been any requirement on people to wear face masks in public. Restaurants, cafés, hairdressers, and shops have stayed open throughout the pandemic. Pre-schools and schools for children up to the age of sixteen have stayed open, while schools for children ages sixteen to nineteen switched to distance learning.

 

My personal experience is that people followed the voluntary restrictions pretty well at the beginning, but that they have become increasingly lax as time has gone on. As a personal example, my mother and my parents-in-law stayed locked up in their homes for the first six weeks or so of the pandemic. After that they couldn’t bear to be away from their grandchildren any longer.

 

In my earlier article in August, I mentioned that after an initial peak that lasted for a month or so, from March to April, visits to the Emergency Room due to COVID had been declining continuously, and deaths in Sweden had dropped from over one hundred a day at the peak in April, to around five per day in August.

 

At the point in August when I wrote that article, I hadn’t seen a single COVID patient in over a month. I speculated that Sweden had developed herd immunity, since the huge and continuous drop was happening in spite of the fact that Sweden wasn’t really taking any serious measures to prevent spread of the infection.

So, how have things developed in the six weeks since that first article?

 

Well, as things stand now, I haven’t seen a single COVID patient in the Emergency Room in over two and a half months. People have continued to become ever more relaxed in their behaviour, which is noticeable in increasing volumes in the Emergency Room. At the peak of the pandemic in April, I was seeing about half as many patients per shift as usual, probably because lots of people were afraid to go the ER for fear of catching COVID. Now volumes are back to normal.

 

When I sit in the tube on the way to and from work, it is packed with people. Maybe one in a hundred people is choosing to wear a face mask in public. In Stockholm, life is largely back to normal. If you look at the front pages of the tabloids, on many days there isn’t a single mention of COVID anywhere. As I write this (19th September 2020) the front pages of the two main tabloids have big spreads about arthritis and pensions. Apparently, arthritis and pensions are currently more exciting than COVID-19 in Sweden.

 

In spite of this relaxed attitude, the death rate has continued to drop. When I wrote the first article, I wrote that COVID had killed under 6,000 people. How many people have died now, six weeks later? Actually, we’re still at under 6,000 deaths. On average, one to two people per day are dying of COVID in Sweden at present, and that number continues to drop.

 

In the hospital where I work, there isn’t a single person currently being treated for COVID. In fact, in the whole of Stockholm, a county with very nearly two and half million inhabitants, there are currently only twenty-eight people being treated for COVID in all the hospitals combined. At the peak, in April, that number was over a thousand. If twenty-eight people are currently in hospital, out of two and a half million who live in Stockholm. Which means the odds of having a case of COVID so severe that it requires in-hospital treatment are, at the moment, about one in eighty-six thousand.

 

Since March, the Emergency Room where I work has been divided in to a “COVID” section and a “non-COVID” section. Anyone with a fever, cough, or sore throat has ended up in the COVID section, and we’ve been required to wear full personal protective equipment when interacting with patients in that section. Last Wednesday the hospital shut down the COVID section. So, few true cases of COVID are coming through the Emergency Room that it no longer makes sense to have a separate section for COVID.

 

What about the few formal restrictions that were imposed early in the pandemic?

 

The restriction on visits to nursing homes is going to be lifted from October 1st. The older children, ages sixteen to nineteen, who were engaging in distance learning during part of the spring, are now back in school, seeing each other and their teachers face to face. The Swedish public health authority has recommended that the government lift the restriction on gatherings from fifty people to five hundred people.

 

When I wrote my first article, I engaged in speculation that the reason Sweden seemed to be developing herd immunity, in spite of the fact that only a minority had antibodies, was due to T-cells. Since I wrote that article, studies have appeared which support that argument.

 

This is good, because T-cells tend to last longer than antibodies. In fact, studies of people who were infected with SARS-CoV-1 back in 2003 have found that they still have T-cells seventeen years after being infected. This suggests that immunity is long lasting, and probably explains why there have only been a handful of reported cases of re-infection with COVID, even though the virus has spent the last nine months bouncing around the planet infecting many millions of people.

 

As to the handful of people who have been reported to have been re-infected. Almost all those cases have been completely asymptomatic. That is not a sign of waning immunity, as some claim. In fact, it is the opposite. It shows that people develop a functioning immunity after the first infection, which allows them to fight off the second infection without ever developing any symptoms.

 

So, if Sweden already has herd immunity, what about other countries? How close are they to herd immunity? The places that have experienced a lot of COVID infections, like England and Italy, have mortality curves that are very similar to Sweden’s, in spite of the fact that they went into lockdown. My interpretation is that they went into lockdown too late for it to have any noticeable impact on the spread of the disease. If that is the case, then they have likely also developed herd immunity by now. Which would make the ongoing lockdowns in those countries bizarre.

 

What about the vaccine? Will it arrive in time to make a difference? As I mentioned in my first article, lockdown only makes sense if you are willing to stay in lockdown until there is an effective vaccine. Otherwise you are merely postponing the inevitable. At the earliest, a vaccine will be widely available at some point in the middle of next year.

 

How many governments are willing to keep their populations in lockdown until then? And what if the vaccine is only thirty per-cent effective? Or fifty per-cent? Will governments decide that is good enough for them to end lockdown? Or will they want to stay in lockdown until there is a vaccine that is at least ninety per-cent effective? How many years will that take?

 

So, to conclude: COVID is over in Sweden. We have herd immunity. Most likely, many other parts of the world do too, including England, Italy, and parts of the US, like New York. And the countries that have successfully contained the spread of the disease, like Germany, Denmark, New Zealand, and Australia, are going to have to stay in lockdown for at least another year, and possibly several years, if they don’t want to develop herd immunity the natural way.


Edited by pamojja, 05 October 2020 - 07:53 PM.

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#171 Mind

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 08:11 PM

"Maskless" Sweden (which continues to have elevated deaths) and Denmark (which has experienced a recent increase in deaths) got—and continues to be—crushed by mask-wearing Japan, SK, and Taiwan.

 

But how maskless are these countries in reality? One survey claims that mask wearing in Sweden has fluctuated between 56% and 78% and in Denmark between 65% and 86%. Unlike Sweden, Denmark recommends masks. And Denmark has a lower excess deaths than Sweden.

 

https://ourworldinda...&pickerSort=asc

https://today.yougov...-avoid-covid-19

https://www.euromomo...graphs-and-maps

https://masks4all.co...asks-in-public/

 

Have you looked at any of the data? Sweden has had a 7-day running average of 1 death for weeks now.

 

Contrast this with the "experts" predicting that Sweden would be decimated by virus deaths (forever into the future) - because of their policy of protecting the vulnerable, while letting the rest of the population live pretty much as normal.



#172 Mind

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 08:18 PM

Masks don't work in Argentina. They closed the border in March and have had a mask mandate since April. Cases and deaths just keep going up and up. https://www.worldome...ntry/argentina/

 

Masks don't work in Japan. They have been wearing masks since the beginning and cases continue to climb: https://www.worldome...s/country/japan

 

California cases increased dramatically AFTER the mask mandate had been in effect for weeks and the trend continues. https://www.latimes....cking-outbreak/

 

To me it is starting to look like there is an inverse correlation between mask usage and pandemic spread. Countries with a more common-sense approach and no strict mask mandate are now doing much better than those with strict mask mandates. Perhaps some of the effect is because masks create a sense of fear and fear/depression/isolation (less human contact) lowers immune response (very well-developed/proven science).


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#173 Florin

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 08:22 PM

If this is true, it's a rather ominous finding.  If fomites really are a minor vector, and plague is spreading, even with indoor masking now the norm, this means we're likely dealing with aerosol transmission as the most common mode of contagion.  A tight fitting N-95 may be effective at containing some/most aerosols, but the loose fitting masks hanging open at the top we now see everywhere would be largely futile.  

 

The worst (airborne transmission) should have been assumed from the beginning, as I've mentioned before. Assuming the best is a major reason why this pandemic has gotten out of control.

 

While respirators are the best way to deal with this and any other pandemic, less effective masks are probably not worthless. Masks prevent droplet transmission and most likely cut down on viral load due to airborne transmission as well and that could lead to a milder form of COVID, as I've also mentioned before. This is sort of like herd immunity via masks rather than vaccines. But if immunity lasts only months, you gotta use respirators. Again, the worst has to be assumed.

 

https://www.ucsf.edu...s-sick-covid-19


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#174 Dorian Grey

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 09:11 PM

I've noticed people wearing masks seem to believe basically any distancing at all is no longer required.  Was buying a security door with my gal last month & the guy helping us kept stepping right up to our faces while talking.  I'd take a step back, & he would step forward to within 2 feet.  I'd step sideways and he would follow suit. 

 

Starting to notice this everywhere I go now.  "I'm masked & so are you, so we can converse at normal distance (2-3 feet) now".

 

It's driving me mad...  STAND BACK dude, you're so close I can smell what you had for lunch!  


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#175 Florin

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 09:51 PM

re: crushed by mask-wearing Japan, SK, and Taiwan.
 
Japan: 7 daily covid-deaths, 7-day average
Souh Korea: 3 daily covid-deaths, 7-day average
Taiwan: 0 daily covid-deaths, 7-day average
 
re: "Maskless" Sweden (which continues to have elevated deaths) and Denmark (which has experienced a recent increase in deaths)
 
Sweden: 1 daily covid-deaths, 7-day average
Denmark: 1 daily covid-deaths, 7-day average
 
https://www.worldome...fo/coronavirus/

 

Have you looked at any of the data? Sweden has had a 7-day running average of 1 death for weeks now.
 
Contrast this with the "experts" predicting that Sweden would be decimated by virus deaths (forever into the future) - because of their policy of protecting the vulnerable, while letting the rest of the population live pretty much as normal.

 

You guys are looking at the wrong data; it should be per million. Sweden and Denmark get crushed on both cases and deaths.

 

Sweden had a policy of murdering the vulnerable, not protecting them.

 

https://ourworldinda...&pickerSort=asc

https://ourworldinda...&pickerSort=asc

https://www.longecit...ndpost&p=894306
 

re: One survey claims that mask wearing in Sweden has fluctuated between 56% and 78% and in Denmark between 65% and 86%.
 

Maybe one in a hundred people is choosing to wear a face mask in public.


Doesn't matter. The point is that even though Sweden has less mask-wearing than other countries, it's rate of mask wearing is nowhere near zero, and that could be a big reason why it's death rate wasn't worse. If more vulnerable people wear masks the most, that might make even more of a difference.


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#176 Florin

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Posted 05 October 2020 - 11:04 PM

Masks don't work in Argentina. They closed the border in March and have had a mask mandate since April. Cases and deaths just keep going up and up. https://www.worldome...ntry/argentina/

 

Masks don't work in Japan. They have been wearing masks since the beginning and cases continue to climb: https://www.worldome...s/country/japan

 

California cases increased dramatically AFTER the mask mandate had been in effect for weeks and the trend continues. https://www.latimes....cking-outbreak/

 

To me it is starting to look like there is an inverse correlation between mask usage and pandemic spread. Countries with a more common-sense approach and no strict mask mandate are now doing much better than those with strict mask mandates. Perhaps some of the effect is because masks create a sense of fear and fear/depression/isolation (less human contact) lowers immune response (very well-developed/proven science).

 

I haven't seen any compliance data over time for Argentina or California.

 

As I've mentioned before, Japan is doing very well compared to countries with lower mask wearing.

 

Most of the evidence suggests that countries with more mask wearing (whether due to mandate or social convention) are doing better than countries with less mask wearing.


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#177 Dorian Grey

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Posted 07 October 2020 - 04:41 AM

OK folks, here's a mic drop report on the mask issue from Dr Mortenson, so get yourself a cup of coffee and watch the whole half hour.  

 

 

Masks...  They're not just for reducing fatality anymore.  They may actually be a path to herd immunity!  

 

I stand by my position for INDOOR use (thumbs up).  Outdoors?  Not so much.  


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#178 Florin

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Posted 07 October 2020 - 05:59 AM

Herd immunity via masks is better than nothing, but it has some problems. Some high-risk people might still become critically ill even with exposure to a lower amount of viral load. And if a healthier person becomes an asymptotic carrier and they live with high-risk people, herd immunity isn't going to help them. This is why vaccines exist and why inoculation via small amounts of live viruses is no longer practiced.

 

The ideal solution is 1) get vaccinated and continue to wear a mask (because both will be more effective than either alone) or 2) wear a respirator.

 

Yeah, outdoors is fairly low risk except perhaps for special circumstances like under a crowded canopy with no wind, low humidity, and lots of singing or shouting.

 

Two metres or one: what is the evidence for physical distancing in covid-19?
https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.m3223

Attached Files


Edited by Florin, 07 October 2020 - 06:23 AM.

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#179 Dorian Grey

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Posted 07 October 2020 - 03:39 PM

The problem I see with the vaccine solution is the relatively high potential for disaster with vaccines developed and deployed at Warp Speed.  Some clues to be found in previous attempts, which all crashed & burned in spectacular fashion.  

 

https://www.contagio...r-coronaviruses

 

Efforts to develop a SARS-CoV-1 vaccine have been thwarted in the past by antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE)-mediated vaccine-induced infection aggravation.17,18 In ferrets, rMVA-S vaccines were successful in inducing a rapid memory immune response, which is an essential feature of an effective prophylactic; but, when these ferrets were challenged with SARS-CoV-1, they developed enhanced liver damage.19,20 Likewise, in mice, SARS-CoV-1 vaccines utilizing either live SARS-CoV-1 or DNA-based S-protein were able to induce antibody formation and protection against SARS-CoV-1;21,22 however, challenged mice exhibited Th2-type immunopathology suggesting hypersensitivity to SARS-CoV-1 components.23 These results suggest that comprehensive evaluation of target SARS-CoV-2 signatures is required before vaccine trials ensue in humans, so as to prevent organ damage upon viral challenge. Specifically, scientists must identify different viral proteins or anti-Spike sera concentrations which would not induce ADE.

 

-----------------------------

 

The only successful RNA vaccine we have (yellow fever) has had its own issues, despite fairly widespread use: 

 

https://en.wikipedia...Malcolm_Brabant

 

In 2011, Brabant became seriously ill following a routine inoculation against yellow fever.[16] Asked to report from Ivory Coast by UNICEF, Brabant was administered the yellow fever vaccine Stamaril made by Sanofi Pasteur in April 2011, at the Vaccination Centre East Attica in Pallini, Athens.[17] An adverse reaction led to three psychotic episodes, during which Brabant spent more than three months in the intensive care units of psychiatric hospitals in three countries.[18][16] He was replaced for a time by the BBC's then-Balkans Correspondent, Mark Lowen, but eventually recovered and resumed his work for PBS.

In 2015 Brabant wrote a book entitled Malcolm is a Little Unwell about his illness and the profound effect it had on his career and family life.[3] The book was made into a documentary film in 2018 and included original footage shot by Brabant and his wife during his psychosis.

 

https://www.cambridg...-death-16705597

 

Family of student who fell from plane believe yellow fever jab led to her death

 

------------------------

 

I believe the previous world record for development of a new vaccine was around 4 years, & the new mRNA format is relatively unexplored.  Even a few catastrophic adverse events per million will make a big splash if we attempt an initial global deployment of a billion doses within a year or so.  Latent autoimmune issues, which could be more widespread and require more time to realize could be apocalyptic.  


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#180 Dorian Grey

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Posted 07 October 2020 - 07:33 PM

The Pointless Timewasting wasn't from me Florin.  I enjoy debate.  

 

I dearly hope the vaccine will be safe, & am not dead-set against taking it myself once I'm convinced it is.  This said, there's simply no way to tell without a phase-4 trial of a million or so people of all ages and medical conditions, with at least a year to establish lack of latent adverse events.  By the time safety is well established for these vaccines, the planet may well be very near or at herd immunity.  


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