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Nugenics "Elixir"

aging reversal epigenetics dna methylation clock heterochronic parabiosis programmed aging

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#121 pone11

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Posted 31 December 2020 - 02:25 PM

A clarification from Akshay in the Josh's blog comment section I find useful to also report here:

 

"...Michael we have two distinct products. Flagship is Elixir which will now move towards an FDA application. We have a separate product which is a very powerful anti aging molecule for which we are following the same strategy suggested by you. This gel is the one that removed the age spots for Harold. We were planning to have this available online by Christmas but now I am not sure exact timing but its iminent. If this gel is successful it will provide any additional funding required for getting Elixir to market..."

 

What is the relationship of this "gel" to the plasma extract "elixir"?   Are they completely different chemicals with different effects?   Isn't that just a business distraction to offer a completely different product rather than focusing on the main show?  I understand the need to finance things, but selling a gel takes energy and focus of a two-person company away from the more critical product.   Just an opinion.....



#122 pone11

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Posted 31 December 2020 - 02:33 PM

I think informative from Akshai:

 

"...we have three products developed: natural extracts mix, young plasma fractions: Elixir and powerful anti aging molecule: gel and transdermal patch. We have completed pre-clinical trials in all three..."

 

https://joshmitteldo...rough/#comments

 

It is not their fault that they are a two-person company, but his comments show that he has no experience in drug development at all.   A "pre-clinical trial" not only measures the therapeutic effect in principle, but also should measure:

 

* toxicity

* pharmacokinetic and safety information

* wide doses of the drug are tested using in vitro (test tube or cell culture) and in vivo (animal) experiments

* sometimes:  in silico profiling using computer models of the drug and target interactions

 

Such studies if done in the way the FDA needs them to be done cost a sh*t-ton of money.   Two guys flying by the seat of their pants did not do "pre-clinical" studies in the sense that the FDA means that term.


Edited by pone11, 31 December 2020 - 02:34 PM.


#123 pone11

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Posted 31 December 2020 - 02:51 PM

 

In case you missed, there were quite harsh comments by Didier Coeurnelle, mainly wrt the lifespan study which I understand is in progress.

 

You should just have quoted Didier here.   Didier's point is to ask why didn't they keep a few rats alive at the end of the experiment.   By this time those rats would be the oldest rats in the world, and we would have their DNA on file to prove to any scientist coming to observe those rats that they are same ones that were initially studied.   How much money would it have cost to just keep two rats alive, and imagine the worldwide impact of having rats break lifespan records.   Didier followed up this point by asking why did they not just immediately start a new study with a handful of rats and try to keep them alive longer than any rat has lived?   No need for a big study.  No need for any elaborate protocol.   If you reversed epigenetic aging 50%, then those rats probably will live longer than any rat in history.   All of this could be done on near-zero budget and in a very short timeframe.   Didier's question was "why didn't you do it?"   The answers were not convincing.   It might have been a simple error.   But admit that and explain it.


Edited by pone11, 31 December 2020 - 03:32 PM.

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#124 albedo

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Posted 31 December 2020 - 02:57 PM

Thank you @pone11


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#125 pone11

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Posted 31 December 2020 - 02:58 PM

Thanks for keeping us updated on all this. 

 

I don't understand why there are some who dismiss the entire study due to the fact that there wasn't a life-span study; especially in light of the lock-down.  Obviously a life-span study will be included, just as a full peer-review of everything will be on the horizon.  And it's extremely hard to believe that S. Horvath would co-author a scam, or a very poorly setup experiment, that consistently came up with inaccurate data.

 

Didier was not asking for a "lifespan study"!!  He was asking why not just keep two rats alive, and in a matter of months those rats would have broken lifespan records.    It's such an obvious point.  The effort would not have cost any money, and it would have galvanized the world's attention on the fact that the study has a very high probability of being true.   Any scientist in the world could come and do DNA samples on those old rats to confirm the claim of identity.   Steve Horvath has the date of receipt and the DNA of the original samples.   Having all of this outside corroboration of facts would have moved all of this forward very rapidly.   If you are a two person company and you need millions of dollars to do further research, why not keep two rats alive and break a lifespan record?

 

I am not making the argument for him.   I am simply trying to fairly state Didier's point.


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#126 pone11

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Posted 31 December 2020 - 03:02 PM

He also said treatment on rats 'peaked' at about 1 month.... and continued for 3 months to be at that YOUNG stage, and then he redid the treatment, with the same result.   I am not exactly sure if this means that after 3 months, the benefit 'wore-off', and the rats' biological age returned to the chronological age... or that after the 3 months... the rats started aging at a regular rate, but at the younger age.

 

I vaguely remember reading a comment that the rats started to age rapidly at the end, which might imply some kind of "memory" there and some attempt by the cell to "catch up" to its true age.   That's all complete speculation and way more science needs to be done.   Someone more familiar with this should step in and correct me.



#127 pone11

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Posted 31 December 2020 - 03:25 PM

and a following additional update:

 

"... March April next year we are also getting ready to launch our first products: blue gel and transdermal patch. Currently technical work with vendors, regulatory lawyer and marketing team have been underway. We are also planning a human trial in Bay Area California which will be published in a peer-reviewed journal so if any of you are in BayArea you, your spouse and friends/relatives 55 years to 85 years of age are welcome to participate..."

 

https://joshmitteldo...rough/#comments
 

 

Does anyone know which institution in the Bay Area is doing that study and who is the study contact?  Is there a clinicaltrials.gov page set up yet?  Which substance are they testing in that trial?



#128 sub7

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Posted 01 January 2021 - 09:05 AM

You have a right to be skeptical and I agree with some of what you say.   But do not forget that their paper has Steve Horvath's name on it.   Steve Horvath is a first rate scientist with incredible integrity and his epigenetic aging clocks are extremely important science.   Now the question is did the "two guys" pull one over on Horvath.   At this point there is not enough information made public to even speculate about that.   But Horvath has said he compared the DNA of each rat on the before and after samples, so if there was a fraud it was something clever and elaborate, and it passed the sniff test of one of the world's best scientists in DNA aging measurements.

 

 

I agree

If such a scam was executed, it must have involved enormous intelligence and immense coordination. If we were to imagine how such a scam would be pulled off:

 

take 2 sets genetically identical rats, born a specific amount of time apart. First send Horwath blood from some of the older rats. Then send Horwath blood samples from younger rats and claim that these are the same rats as before, but now treated with the elixir. Very elaborate scheme indeed.



#129 Mind

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Posted 01 January 2021 - 03:20 PM

I agree

If such a scam was executed, it must have involved enormous intelligence and immense coordination. If we were to imagine how such a scam would be pulled off:

 

take 2 sets genetically identical rats, born a specific amount of time apart. First send Horwath blood from some of the older rats. Then send Horwath blood samples from younger rats and claim that these are the same rats as before, but now treated with the elixir. Very elaborate scheme indeed.

 

Secrecy can elicit thoughts of "a scam", however, it is also a critical business practice if you truly have a remarkable product and want to build a business/company around it.


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#130 pone11

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Posted 01 January 2021 - 10:49 PM

Secrecy can elicit thoughts of "a scam", however, it is also a critical business practice if you truly have a remarkable product and want to build a business/company around it.

 

True, but the way around that would be to have rats that are provably the world's oldest rats.   

 

It is not clear to me that this secret can really be successfully protected from competition.   If the innovation here is to take off the shelf agonists for common genes like Nrf2, make them bioavailable, and simply expose an animal to a high dose for a short period of time, there will be dozens of ways to do that without copying the original formula.   Without proprietary chemicals, protecting yourself from competition is tough.   So that would be the case of a discovery being one of the most important in the world, but the company that forms from that discovery being one of dozens that acts on the discovery. 


Edited by pone11, 01 January 2021 - 10:51 PM.


#131 pone11

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Posted 02 January 2021 - 01:04 AM

Studies financed by Heales: Effect of young rat plasma on the lifespan of aging rats

 

"The Heales organization decided to fund, with a rather modest but useful amount (2 times 25,000 dollars), two studies on the maximum longevity of these animals. One will be conducted by Professor Harold Katcher in his laboratory in India and the other is under the direction of Professor Rodolfo Goya at the Institute for Biochemical Research in Argentina

 

Based on the above information, we decided to evaluate the possible effect of the plasma of young rats on the lifespan of older rats (25 months). Specifically, we propose to compare the survival of older rats treated intravenously with young plasma with that of corresponding age controls (untreated). We also propose to collect blood samples from all animals, every other week, in order to follow the evolution of epigenetic age over time. As a functional assessment, we plan to evaluate the performance of spatial memory before the start of treatment and 3 months after. Cognitive tests will include an evaluation of motor performance.

 

To learn more about the protocol used in these two studies, here are the corresponding documents: 

Rodolfo Goya
Harold Katcher

 

 

I am confused by this.  Wasn't this study already done in 2014, injecting young plasma into old mice, with no significant effect on longevity?

 

What is the new research doing that is different?



#132 Iporuru

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Posted 02 January 2021 - 06:45 AM

I am confused by this.  Wasn't this study already done in 2014, injecting young plasma into old mice, with no significant effect on longevity?

 

What is the new research doing that is different?

 

"Heales supports two experiments on the rejuvenation of elderly rats through transfusions. The maximum longevity thanks to these treatments will be measured for the first time. Whether the results are positive or not, they will be published. To accelerate this research or to close doors.

Today, in spite of the gigantic progress in medicine and research, we still do not know how to be healthy beyond about 85 years of age. 

The use of blood plasma to address the issue of human longevity is still controversial, and companies like Alkahest and Ambrosia are never far from the headlines. 

Mice and rats also experience old age, but much earlier than we do, starting at about 2 years.  And they never get older than 4 years old… 

A recent study that has not been peer-reviewed, signed notably by Harold Katcher and Steve Horvath, details a procedure of reverse aging using Elixir that is wholly derived from plasma. Young rat plasma was administered to 2-year-old rats and their physiological indicators during the test had almost become those of 6-month-old rats. 

The results, obtained using Horvath epigenetic clocks, showed a mean age inversion of 54.2% in four tissues. Specifically, liver tissue rejuvenation was measured at 75%, blood rejuvenation at 66%, heart rejuvenation at 57% and hypothalamus rejuvenation at 19%. 

However, this study does not test longevity per se. This is why the Heales organization decided to fund, with a rather modest but useful amount (2 times 25,000 dollars), two studies on the maximum longevity of these animals."



#133 pone11

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Posted 02 January 2021 - 10:02 AM

"Heales supports two experiments on the rejuvenation of elderly rats through transfusions. The maximum longevity thanks to these treatments will be measured for the first time. Whether the results are positive or not, they will be published. To accelerate this research or to close doors.

Today, in spite of the gigantic progress in medicine and research, we still do not know how to be healthy beyond about 85 years of age. 

The use of blood plasma to address the issue of human longevity is still controversial, and companies like Alkahest and Ambrosia are never far from the headlines. 

Mice and rats also experience old age, but much earlier than we do, starting at about 2 years.  And they never get older than 4 years old… 

A recent study that has not been peer-reviewed, signed notably by Harold Katcher and Steve Horvath, details a procedure of reverse aging using Elixir that is wholly derived from plasma. Young rat plasma was administered to 2-year-old rats and their physiological indicators during the test had almost become those of 6-month-old rats. 

The results, obtained using Horvath epigenetic clocks, showed a mean age inversion of 54.2% in four tissues. Specifically, liver tissue rejuvenation was measured at 75%, blood rejuvenation at 66%, heart rejuvenation at 57% and hypothalamus rejuvenation at 19%. 

However, this study does not test longevity per se. This is why the Heales organization decided to fund, with a rather modest but useful amount (2 times 25,000 dollars), two studies on the maximum longevity of these animals."

 

I asked my question *after* reading the above text on the Heales website.   Their release does not at all make clear how this new study is different than ones done previously, including the 2014 study I linked.



#134 albedo

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Posted 05 February 2021 - 03:59 PM

Update today by Akshay in Josh's blog

 

"Michael, our team has moved to Bay Area. We have set up Lab and will soon be producing Elixir in USA as scheduled. The dog study should start by end of this month. These are big dogs weighing 40kgs so it will be interesting to see how Elixir works on them. We will soon launch a human clinical trial with the dermatology department of a highly reputed University for blue gel for wrinkles and photo damage. We hope to launch the product on Amazon USA by April. We are applying to an IRB for Phase 0 human clinical trial for Elixir. An award winning documentary maker will be covering this trial. Wish us good luck to make 2021 a very important year for all of humanity. We are really grateful to all the incredible people who are reaching out to support us."

 

https://joshmitteldo...n-breakthrough/


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#135 rodentman

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Posted 05 February 2021 - 06:44 PM

Update today by Akshay in Josh's blog

 

"Michael, our team has moved to Bay Area. We have set up Lab and will soon be producing Elixir in USA as scheduled. The dog study should start by end of this month. These are big dogs weighing 40kgs so it will be interesting to see how Elixir works on them. We will soon launch a human clinical trial with the dermatology department of a highly reputed University for blue gel for wrinkles and photo damage. We hope to launch the product on Amazon USA by April. We are applying to an IRB for Phase 0 human clinical trial for Elixir. An award winning documentary maker will be covering this trial. Wish us good luck to make 2021 a very important year for all of humanity. We are really grateful to all the incredible people who are reaching out to support us."

 

https://joshmitteldo...n-breakthrough/

 

Thanks for the updates.  I definitely will be ordering their blue gel if its available in April.  

 

An award winning documentary maker?  That's interesting.


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#136 zorba990

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Posted 07 February 2021 - 09:35 PM

Has a patent benefited on this blue gel? Why is it blue?

#137 JamesPaul

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Posted 08 February 2021 - 01:14 AM

Three interviews of Dr. Harold Katcher are on the Modern Healthspan channel of YouTube.

 

Episode 1: “Reversed Age by Over 54% Study | Dr Harold Katcher Interview Series Ep1,” Jan 29, 2021

https://www.youtube....h?v=K0VcdrbJ2FY

 

Episode 2: “Reversed Age by 54% Study - Elixir 3rd Party Verification | Dr Harold Katcher Interview Series Ep2,” Jan 30, 2021

 

Episode 3: “Reversed Age by Over 54% Study | Steps to Availability | Dr Harold Katcher Interview Series Ep3,” Feb. 1, 2021


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#138 smithx

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Posted 09 February 2021 - 05:32 AM

I'd be a lot more convinced if he had taken it and looked 40 years younger :)


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#139 aribadabar

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Posted 10 February 2021 - 12:13 AM

I'd be a lot more convinced if he had taken it and looked 40 years younger :)

 

Or at the very least posting his bloodwork before and after the intake :)


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#140 rodentman

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Posted 11 February 2021 - 01:01 AM

Or at the very least posting his bloodwork before and after the intake :)

 

 

He hasn't taken it... nor has anyone else, other than a few mice.  For those watching it, just speed up the video 1.25x since he has a bad case of elderly speech.
 
Anyway, a few things of interest that he said:
 
He's still very hush-hush on what the blood factors were, and wouldn't say if it would be manufactured or harvested.
 
Animal trials are finally starting up again this month.  Up till now, they've just had the 2 trials on mice a year ago.
 
S. Horvath (co-author) who is more savvy in aging trials, wants to make this as legitimate as possible, so the trials here in the U.S. are being done by 3rd parties using a leading CRO(contract research organization).  Researching will be done via rhesus monkeys.
 
Another trial, which is being funded by a Belgium investor will be a lifespan test.  Basically.... they will treat the mice continually, to see if they can stay in an 'eternal' state of youthfulness forever.  Obviously this is the one that everyone cares about... including himself.
 
He is also having Greg Fahy conduct an independent trial on dogs.  This is not surprising, since Greg Fahy also works closely with S. Horvath, and they have overlapping ideologies.  But this will help with overall exposure, and they will be selling this for pets, before it gets to humans.  For those of you who don't know, Fahy did the breakthrough HGH/thymus involution study (TRIIM).  He wouldn't say if the 'pet formula' would be the same for humans.
 
Human clinical trials will probably start in 2 years.  He would definitely be one of the patients, as he'll be 78 in 2 years, and is very impatient to take it.
 
When asked about if anyone has taken it, he says that very little of his elixir has been produced up till now.... not even enough for a single human.  He is obviously very cryptic on why this is the case... but says that things that will be very easy to get in the coming months, are currently very difficult to get.  He says all that will be made clear in the coming months.
 
The patent for the elixir will be filed this month. I'm assuming that's just the provisional patent.
For those of you who don't know, a provisional patent isn't made public, its really just a placeholder until the actual  (non-provisional) patent is filed... when that happens... it would be made public, and everything would 'make sense' then. (legally within 12 months of the provisional filing)
 
He re-iterates a few things we already knew.  That the affects of the treatment are not permanent, and people would need to continue getting this treatment periodically.  He had mentioned every decade in the past.  He says it will be affordable for all.  He says it affects/rejuvenates every part of the mice, with the one exception being the hypothalamus, which only re-juvinates 12%, which ironically (or maybe appropriately) is a theoretical control center for our biological clock.
 
He says that in a maximum of a year, he will have confirmatory studies completed for dogs and rhesus monkeys.  And when those are done, he will be absolutely certain that it will work on humans as well.  He will also be releasing a book at that time.

Edited by rodentman, 11 February 2021 - 01:24 AM.

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#141 smithx

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Posted 11 February 2021 - 01:54 AM

The patent for the elixir will be filed this month. I'm assuming that's just the provisional patent.

For those of you who don't know, a provisional patent isn't made public, its really just a placeholder until the actual  (non-provisional) patent is filed... when that happens... it would be made public, and everything would 'make sense' then. (legally within 12 months of the provisional filing)
 
Actually 18 months
 
He re-iterates a few things we already knew.  That the affects of the treatment are not permanent, and people would need to continue getting this treatment periodically.  He had mentioned every decade in the past.  He says it will be affordable for all.  He says it affects/rejuvenates every part of the mice, with the one exception being the hypothalamus, which only re-juvinates 12%, which ironically (or maybe appropriately) is a theoretical control center for our biological clock.
 
It's the thymus I think
 


#142 rodentman

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Posted 11 February 2021 - 02:18 AM

 

 

It's the thymus I think
 

 

 

Thymus involution is certainly a potential target for age reversal... as we've seen in the TRIIM study, but as for a central aging clock, there is growing evidence that overall aging may come from the hypothalamus, which is hypothesized to keeps its own time and transmits signals throughout the body that coordinate methylation state of dispersed tissues.  It's still just a theory though... so we shall see.


Edited by rodentman, 11 February 2021 - 02:19 AM.


#143 orion22

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Posted 11 February 2021 - 09:11 AM

didn t the rusian bio hackers do the blood dilution experiment and didn t get results that are to great why we expecting the elixir to work if the blood dilution didn t work on humans as good as it worked on mice 



#144 Mind

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Posted 11 February 2021 - 04:55 PM

The blue gel must be different than elixir, since it is hitting the market this year. Tested for safety? Maybe I missed a discussion about that from earlier.

 

Since the blood factors are endogenous "things", they can not be patented in isolation or combination. How are they patenting the substance - as a "method"? Such as a method to make the elixir factors more bio-available. Or are they conjugating the factors with something for targeted delivery?

 

Dr. Katcher spoke at a virtual conference today and showed his graphs from the mouse experiments. Every age-related measurement they tested showed improvement.


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#145 aribadabar

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Posted 11 February 2021 - 06:29 PM

Since the blood factors are endogenous "things", they can not be patented in isolation or combination. How are they patenting the substance - as a "method"? Such as a method to make the elixir factors more bio-available. Or are they conjugating the factors with something for targeted delivery?

 

Most likely, as a "use" patent ( for certain condition, like what Sinclair is trying to do messing around with NMN) or as a "production" (like what Chromadex has for NR) patent.



#146 JamesPaul

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Posted 11 February 2021 - 09:36 PM

The fourth episode or snippet of an interview.

 

“Reversed Age by Over 54% Study | The Theory of Aging | Dr Harold Katcher Interview Series Ep4/4,” Modern Healthspan, uploaded Feb 8, 2021

 

 


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#147 hotbit

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 10:58 PM

The blue gel must be different than elixir, since it is hitting the market this year.

 

Is it? Looks like they move dates freely, difficult to see dr Katcher filmed, and on very few videos from 2020/2021 he doesn't look that great. Or can you link to any recent videos with dr Katcher?
It looks to me more and more like a fat BS.

 

They could keep those rats alive, the cost was in thousands of dollars, not billions. They should have had this much money, but if not, they could have asked on facebook, redit, crypto forums, kickstarter or many more places. But they simply chose to kill those rats.

 

"Elixir" looks more and more to be just another pumped, empty, naive BS.


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#148 ortcloud

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Posted 01 July 2021 - 01:42 AM

" We think about all sorts of things Michael, but it seems that the effects of blue stuff are considerably more than skin deep. I’m not here to advertise anything, but it seems to affect my coordination and had hair grow back on my scalp and I no longer apply it to my skin. Some other time perhaps. Yes, there are amazing things that Big Pharma won’t touch as there’s not enough profit in them (they can’t be patented). So I guess we’re somewhat the same, but we know what to do and have proven it – for us, it’s not the money. However, money allows you to do things". Harold Katcher

 

as he referred to the Elixir as blue stuff, which is probably because of Blue Sepharose chromaography.

 

l

 

My guess is that the topical blue gel stuff is simply GHK copper peptide.


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#149 rodentman

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Posted 21 July 2021 - 05:45 PM

Finally a small update on the first 3rd party longevity study of E5.

 

 

study is sponsored by heales.org
Rats were 25 months old at start (62 years human equiv)
Did measurements at day 0 and day 86 (72 years, human equiv) (3 months apart)
16 rats total, 8 rats in treatment, 8 in control.
All rats currently still alive.
 
Treatment:
4 injections of E5  given every 90 days.
After this, the rats will continue to be monitored.  
results will be published at Heales.org by mid 2022.
 
Results after first 3 months:
 
Grip Strength: control: 7.03, treatment 11.25 (started at 5.8)
IL-6: Control 81.26, Treatment 57.08 (started at 81)
TNG-a: Control 97.81, Treatment 68.28 (started at 96)
 
Basically, this is similar to the 2019 results, but at least now there is a control group for comparison. 
complete analysis including epigenetic analysis by S. Horvath will be included with the heales.org report.

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#150 FlorianReicht

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Posted 01 September 2021 - 04:26 PM

I just finished this thread, and on uTube there were 2 more episodes released

 

 

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