356 replies to this topic

[ymc]

This is a theory put forth by:

https://gnews.org/192144/

 

The facts observed:

 

1. Shi Zhengli et al from Wuhan Institute of Virology published a paper at Nature in late January 2020 that said nCoV is the most similar to bat coronavirus to nCoV is bat RaTG13 (~96% similar at RNA level). The RNA of this virus was discovered in bat fecal samples collected in 2013. 

 

https://www.nature.c...1586-020-2012-7

https://www.ncbi.nlm...core/MN996532.1

 

2. RBD area of the Spike protein of RaTG13 is highly similar to SARS.

 

3. The Envelope protein of nCoV is 100% identical to RaTG13 and also two other bat coronaviruses ZC45 and ZXC1 found in 2013.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...uccore/MG772933

https://www.ncbi.nlm...uccore/MG772934

 

4. Ratio of nonsynonymous to synonymous change is 5:1 between ZC45 and ZXC1 but it is 44:1 for RaTG13 and nCoV. The similarity between ZC45 and ZXC1 is ~97%.

 

The arguments suggested by the author:

 

1. RaTG13 was fabricated and never existed. Since Shi Zhengli et al didn't have the bat cells infected with RaTG13, it is not possible for other scientists to reproduce the RaTG13's sequence. RaTG13's Spike protein is very similar to SARS indicating high possibility of infecting humans. Therefore, Shi should have published the sequence in 2013 instead of 2020. The most likely explanation is that Shi Zhengli et al simply used nCoV sequence and then modify a few ACGTs and submit it to public database and name it as RaTG13. This explains why the ratio of nonsynonymous to synonymous change is so much higher than more natural value of 5:1.

 

2. It is highly unlikely that the Envelope protein doesn't evolve at all from 2013 to 2020 as it has nothing to do with infectiousness. In fact, newer nCoV has slightly evolved Envelope protein relative to the original nCoV,

 

3. If RaTG13 was fabricated, most likely nCoV was designed using ZC45 or ZXC1 as a template such that the Envelope proteins are identical.

 

I would say the arguments make some sense. I personally now think it is more than 50/50 that nCoV is made at Wuhan Institute of Virology. 

[Turnbuckle]

The arguments suggested by the author:

 

 

The author is "Nerd Has Power," who appears to operate out of Hong Kong. He calls himself "a nobody scientist." He is not an expert and has taken the position that it is man made and has set about marshaling arguments to prove it. A post from March on his site--https://nerdhaspower...n-made#comments

 

I updated some things in the article. Someone kindly pointed out two errors in my earlier version. First, in the 2006 paper (reference 8), they actually did not see enhanced viral infectivity. My memory fooled me during my writing. I have corrected this mistake and clarified that insertion of Furin cleavage site lead to greater infectivity and greater cell tropism in INFLUENZA virus, not the pseudo virus in this 2006 paper.

Second, I originally wrote that Furin-cleavage site does not exist in any beta coronaviruses. That is not correct (you can tell that I am not a coronavirus expert). Such site is not seen in any lineage B beta coronaviruses, but similar ones (not the exact sequence) are observed in lineage A and other coronaviruses (such as MERS). I have corrected this also. I have to admit that this change weakens my argument (that acquiring this Furin cleavage site through recombination is extremely low) slightly. I have changed my tone accordingly. However, I don't think such change makes any fundamental difference in the overall picture. I remain fully convinced that this Wuhan coronavirus is of non-natural origin.

 

 

Very little is known about coronaviruses compared to what is out there--thousands of undiscovered variants. A more interesting story about a Chinese researcher who is doing actual coronaviral research can be found here.

 

Back in Wuhan, where the lockdown was finally lifted on April 8, China’s bat woman is not in a celebratory mood. She is distressed because stories from the Internet and major media have repeated a tenuous suggestion that SARS-CoV-2 accidentally leaked from her lab—despite the fact that its genetic sequence does not match any her lab had previously studied. Other scientists are quick to dismiss the allegation. “Shi leads a world-class lab of the highest standards,” Daszak says.

   

Despite the disturbance, Shi is determined to continue her work. “The mission must go on,” she says. “What we have uncovered is just the tip of an iceberg.” She is planning to lead a national project to systematically sample viruses in bat caves, with much wider scope and intensity than previous attempts. Daszak’s team has estimated that there are more than 5,000 coronavirus strains waiting to be discovered in bats globally.

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 13 May 2020 - 10:12 AM.

[orion22]

lets not forget it dosen t change anything if it was made in a lab or not Chaina is Chaina we had problems with Chaina with fake supliments before and fake products 

[xEva]

A really good presentation on this are these 2 podcasts by Chris Martenson on Peak Prosperity channel (sorta starts soon after the covid statistics update):

https://www.youtube....h?v=wJzGqVyAtlg

https://www.youtube....h?v=eD3ztjqYGbg

 

It is based on this: https://medium.com/@...ch-f96dd7413748

 

Having heard the evidence it is hard to doubt this is man-made (as in gain of function research) and accidentally released in October 2019.

 

Josh Mitteldorf also believes this

https://joshmitteldo...d-19-come-from/

 

And also John Campbell:

https://www.youtube....h?v=WxAEnUCIY_g

 

 

What I'm saying is, this is good company.

Edited by xEva, 14 May 2020 - 01:17 AM.

[gamesguru]

it is hard to doubt this is man-made

[ymc]

The author is "Nerd Has Power," who appears to operate out of Hong Kong. He calls himself "a nobody scientist." He is not an expert and has taken the position that it is man made and has set about marshaling arguments to prove it. A post from March on his site--https://nerdhaspower...n-made#comments

 

 

Very little is known about coronaviruses compared to what is out there--thousands of undiscovered variants. A more interesting story about a Chinese researcher who is doing actual coronaviral research can be found here.

 

I am working in the genetic field. I can verify that the facts he put out are correct.

 

A lay person should also be able to verify some of these facts just by looking at the sequences from the links I provided.

 

Of course, while the facts he pointed out are correct, his argument is not 100% foolproof. For example, his accusation that RaTG13 was fabricated is a claim that can fall into the he said she said territory.

 

Having said that, the facts he pointed out do lend more to the claim that this virus is man-made.

[ymc]

"Back in Wuhan, where the lockdown was finally lifted on April 8, China’s bat woman is not in a celebratory mood. She is distressed because stories from the Internet and major media have repeated a tenuous suggestion that SARS-CoV-2 accidentally leaked from her lab—despite the fact that its genetic sequence does not match any her lab had previously studied. Other scientists are quick to dismiss the allegation. “Shi leads a world-class lab of the highest standards,” Daszak says."

 

And then Shi et al published RaTG13 genome which is ~96% identical to nCoV in late January.  Isn't that a contradiction to what the claim that "its genetic sequence does not match any her lab had previously studied"? 

[gamesguru]

It is kind of suspicious how they have declined any international investigations.  But I just expect that from a corrupt communist regime

[xEva]

 

it is hard to doubt this is man-made

 

 

 who is this dude? looks a bit like young Fidel Castro -?
 

[rodentman]

there is quite a bit of circumstantial evidence that the virus (weather man-made or natural) may have leaked from the P4 Wuhan lab.  They actually have a github page here where they keep track of the bits of evidence: https://project-evidence.github.io/, but the CCP is going to such extreme lengths to cover-up everything, that there may never be a smoking gun.

 

The wet-market 'hypothesis' just doesn't have any supporting evidence, circumstantial or direct.  The earliest COVID cases don't even have any connection to this market.

 

But the lab seemed to be an accident waiting to happen. There were intelligence cables in 2018 that expressed grave safety concerns at the WIV lab, especially regarding its work with bat coronaviruses.  There is also now strong evidence that there was a significant 'security' event that happened on October 7th that has been corroborated by both cell-phone geolocation records, and now by satellite images.  But one thing that seems to be an extraordinary coincidence, is that the very lab where we would expect this virus to come from, just so happens to be 7 miles away from the 'wet-market'.   

[ymc]

https://www.nature.c...1591-020-0912-6

 

A team led by prominent virologist Dr Yuen Kwok Yung found that nCoV can both infect bat and human's intestine.

 

Therefore, unlike SARS that needs civets as intermediate host to evolve the virus, nCoV most likely doesn't need that

at all. This new research again doesn't contradict the claim that nCoV is made from bat coronavirus.

[Turnbuckle]

I am working in the genetic field. I can verify that the facts he put out are correct.

 

 

 

 

Others who actually give their names don't agree.

 

I have been privately dealing with rumors and inquiries, focused on the RRAR potential furin cleavage site, that nCoV2019 may have a suspicious origin as an engineered, laboratory-generated virus either accidentally or deliberately released in the area of the Wuhan seafood and animal market. The publication of the highly similar RaTG13 sequence about a week ago has fueled this type of speculation.

 

As I have told people privately, I see no evidence at all to support such a claim. In sharp contrast, I have studied the question in detail, using RaTG13 and Wuhan sequence at the S1/S2 boundary, and find convincing proof of exactly opposite conclusion – that RaTG13 could NOT be a proximal source of the Wuhan virus.

 

...

 

RaTG13, or anything nearly identical to it at the RNA level, simply could not be a proximal source of nCoV2019. It just LOOKS like it might be…at first glance.

 

Given that furin cleavage signals are present in other coronaviruses at exactly that point in the S1/S2 boundary region, it only LOOKS unusual, especially against the backdrop of SARS. The preponderance of evidence, coupled with Ockham’s razor (that the simplest explanation is preferred) dictates that the PRRA sequence has been conserved in nCoV2019 from a long ago ancestor virus. It is not of suspicious origin. The closest bat virus sequence is really not close at all.

 

RNA don’t lie.

 

Bill Gallaher

http://virological.o...of-ncov2019/384

 

 

The anonymous Hong Kong poster you quoted in the OP admits he is no expert in the area, while this Bill Gallaher is. Seems that he's an emeritus professor at the Department of Microbiology, Immunology & Parasitology at LSU -- https://www.medschoo...allaher_william

 

Then of course we have the self-admitted liar Mike Pompeo claiming that he has enormous evidence that the virus was man made in a Chinese lab, then said minutes later that he agreed with experts who said it was not man made. He's a moron who can't keep his lies straight any better than Trump can.

 

“Look, the best experts so far seem to think it was manmade. I have no reason to disbelieve that at this point,” he said.

 

But when he was reminded that US intelligence had issued a formal statement noting the opposite – that the scientific consensus was that the virus was not manmade or genetically modified – Pompeo replied: “That’s right. I agree with that.”

https://www.theguard...nese-laboratory

 

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 14 May 2020 - 08:57 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

But the lab seemed to be an accident waiting to happen. There were intelligence cables in 2018 that expressed grave safety concerns at the WIV lab, especially regarding its work with bat coronaviruses.  There is also now strong evidence that there was a significant 'security' event that happened on October 7th that has been corroborated by both cell-phone geolocation records, and now by satellite images.  But one thing that seems to be an extraordinary coincidence, is that the very lab where we would expect this virus to come from, just so happens to be 7 miles away from the 'wet-market'.   

 

 

And the supposed Novichok attack on a Russian double agent and his daughter was less than 7 miles from the notorious Porton Down, where the UK develops and tests chemical warfare agents and has been accused of conducting unethical experiments on humans. Another extraordinary coincidence?

 

As for the supposed security event at WIV, that was from privately (and apparently unidentified) sourced report based on cell phone usage--

 

WASHINGTON — A private analysis of cellphone location data purports to show that a high-security Wuhan laboratory studying coronaviruses shut down in October, three sources briefed on the matter told NBC News. U.S. spy agencies are reviewing the document, but intelligence analysts examined and couldn't confirm a similar theory previously, two senior officials say.

https://www.nbcnews....xperts-n1202716

 

 

So there is no "strong evidence," or even weak evidence. It's reminiscent of Colin Powell throwing up satellite images of ice cream trucks and making up fanciful stories of portable chem labs.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 14 May 2020 - 09:46 AM.

[xEva]

 

The anonymous Hong Kong poster you quoted in the OP admits he is no expert in the area, while this Bill Gallaher is

 

the experts in the area do not sound convincing as they are interested in protecting research their livelihoods depend on. This gain of function research was opposed to by another group of experts as far back as 2018, published in Washington  Post. Those other experts were warning that a disaster was waiting to happen. It finally did.

[Turnbuckle]

the experts in the area do not sound convincing as they are interested in protecting research their livelihoods depend on. This gain of function research was opposed to by another group of experts as far back as 2018, published in Washington  Post. Those other experts were warning that a disaster was waiting to happen. It finally did.

 

 

You made a logical leap with that last sentence.

[ymc]

"RaTG13, or anything nearly identical to it at the RNA level, simply could not be a proximal source of nCoV2019. It just LOOKS like it might be…at first glance.

 

Given that furin cleavage signals are present in other coronaviruses at exactly that point in the S1/S2 boundary region, it only LOOKS unusual, especially against the backdrop of SARS. The preponderance of evidence, coupled with Ockham’s razor (that the simplest explanation is preferred) dictates that the PRRA sequence has been conserved in nCoV2019 from a long ago ancestor virus. It is not of suspicious origin. The closest bat virus sequence is really not close at all.

 

RNA don’t lie.

 

Bill Gallaher"

 

This quote doesn't contradict the view that RaTG13 was fabricated. It only means no close relative of nCoV was found at all.

 

Also, Dr Yuen et al's research indicates that an intermediate host is not necessary. Therefore, even if the virus didn't undergo any human intervention, it is possible that it simply jump from bats to humans due to a leak in the lab. The bats WIV uses usually come from either Yunnan or Zhejiang which are both around 24 hours drive distance from Wuhan. 

 

Edited by ymc, 15 May 2020 - 01:53 AM.

[xEva]

You made a logical leap with that last sentence.

 

Of course my opinion is not based on this one sentence. It is based on the presentations of the evidence by 4 people I linked above. And judging by the quote, it sounds like the first link posted by OP is good too, though I have not seen it yet, coz I feel like I have had enough on this subject for now.

 

The most exhaustive presentation I've seen is here: https://medium.com/@...ch-f96dd7413748 and I confess I have not finished reading it. Chris Martenson gives a good summary of it. I gave a wrong link to his summary above. This is the right one: https://www.youtube....eepqyWf&index=9 I highly recommend it. It's faster and easier to watch than reading the long article at medium.com.

 

 

Your response tells me that you have not seen any of the evidence yourself and were satisfied with what has been spoon-fed to the public by mainstream media.
 

[Turnbuckle]

 

Your response tells me that you have not seen any of the evidence yourself and were satisfied with what has been spoon-fed to the public by mainstream media.
 

 

It's true that I haven't seen Pompeo's "enormous evidence," as he has yet to show us any. Pompeo is a typical neocon demagogue who wants to divert attention from Trump's do-nothing fuck up that left us with 25% of the world's cases when we only have 4% of the population. And it's standard neocon behavior when it comes to Russia and China. They have been targets since the Wolfowitz doctrine was first formulated nearly 30 years ago. No rival, the doctrine said, will be allowed to increase its influence in the world. Their goal was and remains global empire, and neocons correctly perceive that China is rapidly approaching us in economic and military might. Thus Trump's hysterical, "We could cut off the whole relationship," and the promoting of internet conspiracy theories as evidence.

 

The doctrine has been rewritten many times, but the ultimate goal of world empire remains the same. It was first released in 1992, written by Paul Wolfowitz under Cheney's oversight--

 

Our first objective is to prevent the re-emergence of a new rival, either on the territory of the former Soviet Union or elsewhere, that poses a threat on the order of that posed formerly by the Soviet Union. This is a dominant consideration underlying the new regional defense strategy and requires that we endeavor to prevent any hostile power from dominating a region whose resources would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to generate global power.

https://www.nytimes....-new-rival.html

 

 

 

Edited by Turnbuckle, 15 May 2020 - 09:44 AM.

[xEva]

It's true that I haven't seen Pompeo's "enormous evidence," as he has yet to show us any. Pompeo is a typical neocon demagogue who wants to divert attention from Trump's do-nothing fuck up that left us with 25% of the world's cases when we only have 4% of the population. And it's standard neocon behavior when it comes to Russia and China. They have been targets since the Wolfowitz doctrine was first formulated nearly 30 years ago. No rival, the doctrine said, will be allowed to increase its influence in the world. Their goal was and remains global empire, and neocons correctly perceive that China is rapidly approaching us in economic and military might. Thus Trump's hysterical, "We could cut off the whole relationship," and the promoting of internet conspiracy theories as evidence.

 

The doctrine has been rewritten many times, but the ultimate goal of world empire remains the same. It was first released in 1992, written by Paul Wolfowitz under Cheney's oversight--

 

looks like you would not be caught dead having the same opinion as Pompeo and that's the extent of your own logic in this matter

 

PS

besides, I don't see why China alone is to blame, since the lab was largely financed by the  US, after the gain of function research was forbidden in the US.

Edited by xEva, 15 May 2020 - 01:41 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

looks like you would not be caught dead having the same opinion as Pompeo and that's the extent of your own logic in this matter

 

 

 

 

Really! He makes this statement and doesn't provide any evidence, and you accept it and deride me for not accepting it? After all the decades of our government lying to us, that is surprising.

[xEva]

Really! He makes this statement and doesn't provide any evidence, and you accept it and deride me for not accepting it? After all the decades of our government lying to us, that is surprising.

 

-?! I supplied a bunch of links -- where do you see Pompeo? Why bring up Pompeo and why is he relevant?

Edited by xEva, 15 May 2020 - 10:23 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

-?! I supplied a bunch of links -- where do you see Pompeo? Why bring up Pompeo and why is he relevant?

 

 

Did you already forget what you posted? You said "you would not be caught dead having the same opinion as Pompeo and that's the extent of your own logic in this matter." Is someone else using your computer that you don't know about?

Edited by Turnbuckle, 15 May 2020 - 10:32 PM.

[xEva]

The latest on the topic:

 

https://nymag.com/in...ape-theory.html

 

 

The Lab-Leak Hypothesis

 

For decades, scientists have been hot-wiring viruses in hopes of preventing a pandemic, not causing one. But what if …?

By Nicholson Baker

[Dorian Grey]

New cover-up fears as Chinese officials delete critical data about the Wuhan lab with details of 300 studies vanishing - including all those carried out by virologist dubbed Batwoman

 

https://www.dailymai...-Wuhan-lab.html

 

The Chinese government is facing fresh accusations of a cover-up after officials deleted crucial online data about the laboratory suspected of being the source of Covid-19.

 

The Mail on Sunday can reveal that hundreds of pages of information relating to studies carried out by the top-secret Wuhan Institute of Virology have been wiped.

 

Details of more than 300 studies, including many investigating diseases that pass from animals to humans, published online by the state-run National Natural Science Foundation of China (NSFC) are no longer available.

 

As part of the NSFC’s purge of online studies, it has deleted all reference to those carried out by Shi Zhengli, the Wuhan-based virologist who has earned the nickname Batwoman for her trips to gather samples in bat caves.

 

Studies key to any investigation into the source of the virus, including one into the risk of cross-species infection from bats with Sars-like coronaviruses, and another looking at human pathogens carried by bats, have also disappeared.

[Daniel Cooper]

Published today in the Toronto Sun -
 
WHO advisor: COVID-19 pandemic likely started via lab leak

 

 

The Kansas City-born, New York-based Metzl, who served as Deputy Staff Director of the Foreign Relations Committee under then Senator Joe Biden (2001-2003) and before that on the National Security Council (1997-99) and the State Department (1999-01) under President Bill Clinton), theorizes it was most likely an accidental lab leak in Wuhan.

 

[Dorian Grey]

Yep.  The total land surface area of Earth is about 57,308,738 square miles, of which about 33% is desert and about 24% is mountainous. Subtracting this uninhabitable 57% (32,665,981 mi2) from the total land area leaves 24,642,757 square miles or 15.77 billion acres of habitable land.

 

And this bug just happened to pop up within walking distance of the Wuhan Institute of Virology?  What a wild and wacky coincidence!  

 

Some say SARS-CoV-2 has been found in blood samples outside China before December 2019, but where exactly did this pandemic actually blossom & take off?  

 

WUHAN CHINA!  

[ZiggyStar]

And this bug just happened to pop up within walking distance of the Wuhan Institute of Virology?  What a wild and wacky coincidence!  

 

 

This + China cover up is more than enough evidence. The rest is a word cloud.

[Daniel Cooper]

Another news article on the subject from yesterday.
 
Yahoo News: Wuhan Institute of Virology Research in December 2019 Shows Evidence of Adenovirus Vaccine Experiments in Patients with COVID-19
 


Paper here -

A Bayesian analysis concludes beyond a reasonable doubt that SARS-CoV-2 is not a natural zoonosis but instead is laboratory derived
 
The author -

Dr. Steven Quay has 360+ published contributions to medicine and has been cited over 10,000 times, placing him in the top 1% of scientists worldwide. He holds 87 US patents and has invented seven FDA-approved pharmaceuticals which have helped over 80 million people. He is the author of the best-selling book on surviving the pandemic, Stay Safe: A Physician's Guide to Survive Coronavirus. He is the CEO of Atossa Therapeutics Inc. (Nasdaq: ATOS), a clinical-stage biopharmaceutical company developing novel therapeutics for treating breast cancer and COVID-19.
He received his M.D. and Ph.D. from The University of Michigan, was a postdoctoral fellow in the Chemistry Department at MIT with Nobel Laureate H. Gobind Khorana, a resident at the Harvard-MGH Hospital, and spent almost a decade on the faculty of Stanford University School of Medicine. A TEDx talk he delivered on breast cancer prevention has been viewed over 220,000 times. For more information, visit www.DrQuay.com

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 31 January 2021 - 01:26 AM.

[xEva]

Wuhan Institute of Virology 'highly probably' the source of COVID-19
Mar 21, 2021


Sky News Australia

The former lead investigator who spearheaded a taskforce for the US government into the origins of COVID-19 has declared the virus may have been the result of work done for a biological weapons program in Wuhan.

David Asher – a now senior fellow at the Hudson Institute – spoke to Sky News about investigations into the origins of COVID-19 and suspicions as to who may have been first infected with the virus in Wuhan.







 




 

[xEva]

the latest on the theme:
 
Origins of COVID-19: Who Opened Pandora’s Box at Wuhan – People or Nature?

https://science.thew...ople-or-nature/

by Nicholas Wade
Very well written, all aspects covered.