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Evidence shows nCoV is likely man-made by Wuhan lab

coronavirus

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#61 gamesguru

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 01:54 PM

China may have understated its numbers, but it's doubtful they're advanced enough to engineer warfare-level viruses. Or that they have any clear incentive to.

 

Viruses are constantly evolving—and though an event this catastrophic may only occur every several hundred years, it's no reason to be over speculative and start pointing fingers without good evidence.

 

Phylogenetic analysis has implicated the horseshoe bat as the likely natural reservoir, with many less transmissible mutant strains having already been observed in that species (in 2015 for example)[1][2].

 

Spike proteins are complex structures—for which even reverse engineering by means of X-ray or radio-crystallography proves difficult—the idea they can be designed to specification by "nixing and adjusting mRNA base pairs here and there" is science fiction today[3].

 

Please stop spreading controversial claims without the evidence to back them up.  It is good to entertain possibilities like this, but bad to spread them authoritatively.


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#62 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 02:55 PM

But no one in this thread has suggested that covid-19 was engineered to be a bio-weapon (at least I don't think that is the case). I certainly don't believe that. A bio-weapon that has less than a 1% fatality rate isn't much of a bio-weapon.
 
What I have suggested is that there is a circumstantial case that a virus being worked on at the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) may have escaped and been the genesis of this pandemic.
 
We know that Shi Zhengli at the Wuhan Institute was involved in manipulating bat corona viruses - specifically adding novel spike proteins. We know this because she's an author on a published paper where they took a bat coronavirus and added a "novel spike protein" to it. They most likely were trying to understand how the original SARs and other SARs like viruses were so successful at infecting human cells and why it was so deadly.  We also know that WIV was an BSL-2 rated lab that should not have been preforming dangerous work like this and that more benign viruses had infected workers at this facility in the past.  A BSL-2 lab has about the same level of bio-protection as the average dentist office.
 
But, the case is only circumstantial. I have no idea whether that is what happened or not.
 
What I find however fascinating is the sudden shift in what is and isn't allowed to be discussed in the media and on social media.
 
Two months ago, talking about covid-19 escaping from the WIV was sufficient to get you banned from all the major social media platforms - YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.  And people were routinely banned for this infraction.  To talk about a virus escaping from WIV was to be labeled a racist, a QAnon kook, a conspiracy theorist, and any number of equally horrible names.
 
Now suddenly, the former head of the CDC says he thinks it escaped from a lab, the mainstream media has decided that the story merits further inquiry, and Tony Fauci says he's 'not convinced' Covid-19 developed naturally.

 

What's changed? Nothing. At this moment there's virtually no new information that we didn't have 6 months ago. But, what was once verboten is now just fine for discussion by respectable people.

 

I submit what has changed is the political situation.  The election is over, a little time has passed, and now we are permitted to discuss what should have been discussed all along.

 

We used to have a culture of allowing the free and open exchange of ideas in the West. That does not appear to be the case any longer.

 

 


Edited by Daniel Cooper, 31 May 2021 - 03:08 PM.

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#63 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 31 May 2021 - 03:05 PM

Yes, I believe China's numbers. They are in line with other countries in the region. Though they are not as good as Taiwan's numbers, which are 7 times better than the mainland's (and 3,500 times better than ours). Are they lying too? As for a country lying to its people, how is that not us? Bush and Cheney lied to us about Iraq, and in the subsequent war of aggression a million people died, millions more fled into exile, and we lost north of $4 trillion. Go back through our history and you will see a pattern of lying that makes one doubt if our government ever tells us the truth about anything. You obviously believe all the recent propaganda about China, which is being spread for one reason: to get the population behind another war. China's economic and military might passed us during the Trump years, and our only chance to knock them down is with a new Opium war, by which the UK knocked them down 200 years ago -- the last time China had the largest economy in the world.

 

We shall see. 

 

Good to have you on record on this.


Edited by Daniel Cooper, 31 May 2021 - 04:08 PM.

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#64 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 10:47 AM

Have we done this one from the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, widely considered to be at least a left leaning organization. Certainly not a bastion of QAnon conspiracy kooks.
 

The origin of COVID: Did people or nature open Pandora’s box at Wuhan?

 

 

Money Quote:
Image-6-2-21-at-6-22-AM.jpg

The entire article is worth a read.

 


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#65 Mind

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 03:18 PM

Here is Peter Daszak on TWIV talking about how easy it is to manipulate coronaviruses:

 

 

“coronaviruses are pretty good… you can manipulate them in the lab pretty easily… the spiked proteins drive a lot about what happens. You can get the sequence you can build the protein, we work with Ralph Baric at UNC to do this, insert into the backbone of another virus and do some work in a lab.”

 

 


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#66 Mind

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Posted 03 June 2021 - 02:58 PM

Just a reminder that this is the "lab leak" thread.

 

Here is the "alternative views" thread: https://www.longecit...views-theories/

 

Here is the COVID context thread for comparative stats between countries: https://www.longecit...n-with-context/



#67 Hip

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Posted 03 June 2021 - 07:11 PM

The conclusions of this article are fairly obvious, but it's worth contemplating: 

 

Former MI6 chief Sir Richard Dearlove says coronavirus Wuhan lab-leak theory will be difficult to prove because China will likely have destroyed any evidence 

 

 

Not that we should jump to the conclusion that SARS-CoV-2 was due to a lab leak.

 

Remember we also had two very similar coronaviruses appear in the last two decades: SARS-CoV-1 again from China; and the MERS-CoV (Middle East respiratory syndrome) virus in Saudi Arabia. Unlikely that they were all lab leaks. So coronaviruses do appear able to jump from animals into human populations. 

 


Edited by Hip, 03 June 2021 - 07:11 PM.

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#68 bladedmind

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Posted 03 June 2021 - 07:35 PM

I’ve been posting occasionally on the lab-leak hypothesis for a while in the Protecting thread.  For better Longecity hygiene, I should continue in this devoted thread. 

 

The Italian-origin hypothesis is new to me.  If the observations claimed in the thread are correct, it has a few points in its favor.  In a cursory search I found that, 
 

These findings simply document that the epidemic in China was not detected in time," Giovanni Apolone, scientific director of National Cancer Institute (INT) and a co-author of the study, told a news conference in Milan.

https://www.usnews.c...e-virus-origins

 

That weakens but does not decisively dismiss the Italian hypothesis.

 

Competing hypotheses:

 

Italian bat exposure

Broader zoonotic

Accidental China lab-leak (gain of function)

Accidental China lab leak (Mojiang Miners’ Hypothesis)

Deliberate China lab-leak

Unz – deliberate US rogue-neocon bioweapon attack on China  

 

As so often, there is no direct evidence for any of the hypotheses, and only indirect evidence favoring some hypotheses more than others, but not weighty enough to single out one as most likely.  Given the indeterminacy of evidence to date, my view is that Occam’s Razor recommends the accidental China lab-leak (gain of function) hypothesis.  From Vanity Fair:

 

Why, in all places in the world, did the outbreak begin in the city with a laboratory housing one of the world’s most extensive collection of bat viruses, doing some of the most aggressive research?

 

My view doesn’t matter though.  What’s next is to continue to pursue empirical observations that support or undermine the various hypotheses.  Now, for some new observations.

 

The Nicholas Wade story was big news, as was the surprising reversal of socially acceptable opinion.  Here is a new report from Vanity Fair by Katherine Egan, The Lab-Leak Theory: Inside the Fight to Uncover COVID-19’s Origins.

 

It quite strongly suggests that a faction of the U.S. government worked to suppress knowledge of the U.S. role in funding Wuhan gain of function research, among MANY other new revelations.   It is long, full of detail, and will trigger much controversy.  Bigger than Wade. 

 

A months long Vanity Fair investigation, interviews with more than 40 people, and a review of hundreds of pages of U.S. government documents, including internal memos, meeting minutes, and email correspondence, found that conflicts of interest, stemming in part from large government grants supporting controversial virology research, hampered the U.S. investigation into COVID-19’s origin at every step. In one State Department meeting, officials seeking to demand transparency from the Chinese government say they were explicitly told by colleagues not to explore the Wuhan Institute of Virology’s gain-of-function research, because it would bring unwelcome attention to U.S. government funding of it.

 

In an internal memo obtained by Vanity Fair, Thomas DiNanno, former acting assistant secretary of the State Department’s Bureau of Arms Control, Verification, and Compliance, wrote that staff from two bureaus, his own and the Bureau of International Security and Nonproliferation, “warned” leaders within his bureau “not to pursue an investigation into the origin of COVID-19” because it would “‘open a can of worms’ if it continued.”

 

There is a long, well-documented history of natural spillovers leading to outbreaks, even when the initial and intermediate host animals have remained a mystery for months and years, and some expert virologists say the supposed oddities of the SARS-CoV-2 sequence have been found in nature….

 

There are reasons to doubt the lab-leak hypothesis….But for most of the past year, the lab-leak scenario was treated not simply as unlikely or even inaccurate but as morally out-of-bounds....

 

Dr. Robert Redfield, former director of the CDC, said he received death threats from fellow scientists after telling CNN he thought the virus likely escaped from a lab. “I expected it from politicians. I didn’t expect it from science,” he said.

 


Edited by bladedmind, 03 June 2021 - 07:59 PM.

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#69 Dorian Grey

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Posted 03 June 2021 - 08:07 PM

Here's yet another fantastic read from Newseek: https://www.newsweek...d-media-1596958

 

Exclusive: How Amateur Sleuths Broke the Wuhan Lab Story and Embarrassed the Media

 

It's comforting to know there are still humans left on planet earth who's brains are still functioning well.  Incredibly damning to think the political boffins could have been so clueless.  

 

Daszak's deceptions & Bat-Woman's lies, all uncovered by a collaboration of amateur detectives.  

 

Hats off to the members of DRASTIC.  NOBEL prize nominations?  


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#70 bladedmind

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Posted 04 June 2021 - 01:54 AM

Now a second NYT reporter, Donald G. McNeil Jr., in Medium:  How I Learned to Stop Worrying And Love the Lab-Leak Theory

 

Last year McNeil drafted a story for NYT titled, “New Coronavirus Is ‘Clearly Not a Lab Leak,’ Scientists Say,”  but for several reasons it was not published. 

 

He was initially dismissive of colleague Wade’s lab-leak article in Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, and still objects to its evaluation of some of the virologists, but now leans towards accidental lab-leak. 

 

But the Occam’s Razor argument — what’s the likeliest explanation, animal or lab? — keeps shifting in the direction of the latter.

 

The article details in an effective, popular-science, but non-condescending manner why scientists of good will leaned towards the zoonotic a year ago and now lean towards lab leak.   A good read – technical matters I didn’t quite get before made understandable.  Of medium length.


Edited by bladedmind, 04 June 2021 - 02:02 AM.

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#71 Hip

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Posted 06 June 2021 - 02:03 AM

Article today about how Peter Daszak's Lancet letter debunking the lab leak theory was used as the basis for Facebook's policy to limit talk of this theory on FB. 

 

Peter Daszak's non-profit EcoHealth Alliance funneled US grants to controversial gain-of-function research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, and so his Lancet letter could be a case of arse covering. 

 

 

This article says:

 

British zoologist and the president of EcoHealth Alliance Peter Daszak is the only individual to be part of both the WHO and The Lancet teams investigating the origins of the Wuhan coronavirus pandemic. However, he has long-term professional and financial ties with the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV), which represents a conflict of interest.

Edited by Hip, 06 June 2021 - 02:06 AM.

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#72 bladedmind

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Posted 06 June 2021 - 03:48 PM

Long ago I was a paid flack in local politics.  It was my job to create advantageous framings and disseminate them through cultivation of reporters and other activities intended to create apparent popular endorsement.  More than once I was amazed to hear a spin I had created repeated almost verbatim a few months later by strangers – for example, at a party.   This at a petty low level by one person.  There is a huge “public relations” industry whose job is to manipulate public opinion for the benefit of clients -- governmental, political, commercial.   

 

I spent the first half of my life being duped by one ideology after another, and the second half realizing how I had been repeatedly duped.  These days I am suspicious of strident claims to authority, and assign cautious likelihood estimates to claims rather than indulge in all-or-nothing thinking. 

 

Just for the record I think that to date there is insufficient evidence to decisively favor either the zoonotic or lab-leak hypothesis – it’s an open question. 

 

This article from Nature, however, strikes me as blatant propaganda, even clumsy.  Among other gambits:  public discussion of the lab-leak hypothesis will delay pandemic resolution and increase racism (an implication of that claim is that people will die and suffer).  Clumsy to me, but prestigious confirmation to any audience predisposed to its message.  To me, its clumsiness signals a desperation in some quarters and prompts suspicion.  This is the most distinguished science journal in the world, and the following piece is labeled "news" rather than "opinion."

 

Divisive COVID ‘lab leak’ debate prompts dire warnings from researchers

 

Allegations that COVID escaped from a Chinese lab make it harder for nations to collaborate on ending the pandemic — and fuel online bullying, some scientists say.

 

Calls to investigate Chinese laboratories have reached a fever pitch in the United States, as Republican leaders allege that the coronavirus causing the pandemic was leaked from one, and as some scientists argue that this ‘lab leak’ hypothesis requires a thorough, independent inquiry. But for many researchers, the tone of the growing demands is unsettling. They say the volatility of the debate could thwart efforts to study the virus’s origins.

 

Global-health researchers also warn that the growing demands are exacerbating tensions between the United States and China ahead of crucial meetings at which world leaders will make high-level decisions about how to curb the pandemic and prepare for future health emergencies.

 

Etc.

 


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#73 aribadabar

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Posted 06 June 2021 - 07:16 PM

And now comes the Fauci's email FOIA disclosure that pretty much confirmed that the gain of function research has been going on and since Feb 1st, 2020 they coordinated the narrative to misdirect away from the lab-origin, and therefore the lab-leak, theory:

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#74 bladedmind

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Posted 07 June 2021 - 12:32 AM

An old joke but still funny. 

 

The GOFFather, Part 4

 


Edited by bladedmind, 07 June 2021 - 12:34 AM.

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#75 Dorian Grey

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Posted 07 June 2021 - 01:11 AM

Love the downfall video!  Subtitles are incredibly well written (pause the video & make sure you read them all)!  


Edited by Dorian Grey, 07 June 2021 - 01:22 AM.


#76 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 07 June 2021 - 01:19 PM

Peter Daszak really comes off as a remarkably bad character in this whole thing. Not only did he fail to disclose his own massive personal interest in this affair (having passed government funding through his organization to the Wuhan Institute of Virology for gain of function research), but he has also apparently recruited strawmen to publish letters and papers so these positions discrediting the idea that the virus might have originated in the Wuhan lab would appear independent from himself.

 

This guy should be wearing a grey nehru jacket petting a white cat.

 

 

 

 


Edited by Daniel Cooper, 07 June 2021 - 01:19 PM.

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#77 bladedmind

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Posted 07 June 2021 - 03:27 PM

27 scientists signed the bullying op-ed Daszak organized to put in Lancet (the most prestigious medical journal), which completely rejected the lab-leak hypothesis as a “conspiracy theory.”  The signatories pledged, “We declare no competing interests.”

 

Earlier, Daszak had emailed colleague Paul Baric, saying you “should not sign this statement, so it has some distance from us and therefore doesn’t work in a counterproductive way” (Vanity Fair). “We’ll then put it out in a way that doesn’t link it back to our collaboration so we maximize an independent voice.”

 

Baric broke ranks in May 2021, signing on to a letter published in Science calling for an objective and transparent investigation of origins.  Investigate the origins of COVID-19.

 

Signatory Kristian Anderson, who a week before the letter was published had warned Fauci that the virus was potentially engineered, deleted his twitter account yesterday.

Now one of the original lab-leak deniers calls for a 'thorough investigation' into Covid's origin as he admits 'a lot of disturbing information' has surfaced since he signed Lancet letter denouncing theory (Peter Palese)

Ship --> Rats

 

Andrew Huff, once associate vice president of Daszak’s EcoHealth Alliance, makes stunning claims about the content of redactions in Fauci emails.  https://twitter.com/...267247738331138

For example:
 

That NIH and FB and EcoHealth Alliance directly engaged in a cover-up scheme, where further investigations into the cover up will reveal classified research or intelligence, peripheral to the primary investigation of the cover up activity....

There is more evidence that COVID was the result of a lab leak, than the result of natural emergence. You are ignoring other key evidence and your argument is flat out nonsense.

 

Daily Mail pays a visit to Daszak

What a Wuhan lab leak would really mean
Scientists and the media eagerly denounced credible evidence as a conspiracy theory

 

But what would it mean if the lab leak hypotheses proved correct? The result would be uncomfortable not just for the Chinese Communist Party, which would be guilty of overseeing arguably the biggest cover-up in history of an event that caused economic chaos, millions of deaths and misery around the world. It would shake science to its foundations for carrying out risky research despite clear warnings of the dangers, and then collaborating in an epic whitewash. And it would challenge a media that meekly accepted the establishment view rather than doing its job of asking difficult questions — a failure even more serious than the Iraq War intelligence debacle. Indeed, much of science and the media already look sadly tainted by their failures on this front, regardless of the outcome.

 


Edited by bladedmind, 07 June 2021 - 03:29 PM.

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#78 Hip

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Posted 07 June 2021 - 05:20 PM

Looks like the Lancet letter Peter Daszak organized might be a case of pre-emptive arse-covering. He perhaps thought to himself that the gain-of-function research that his charity EcoHealth Alliance funded at the Wuhan lab might potentially be the origin of SARS-CoV-2, so just in case, he may have wanted to divert attention by means of this letter.

 

His actions do not of course provide any evidence that SARS-CoV-2 did emerge from the Wuhan lab: I suspect Daszak may just have acted on the possibility it might have.

 

 

 

Even if SARS-CoV-2 did emerge from the Wuhan lab, it may not have come from this gain-of-function research:

 

The Wuhan lab had also collected tissues samples from a mysterious infection that in 2012 killed 3 Chinese miners working in the Mojiang mine, removing bat feces. The infection they caught from the bat feces had very similar symptoms to COVID. The samples sent to the Wuhan lab were studied in 2018 and the virus (named the Mòjiāng virus) was concluded to come from horseshoe bats. Ref: here.

 

So maybe this horseshoe bat virus could have escaped from the Wuhan lab, causing the pandemic. 

 

Nobody should be yet jumping to the conclusion that SARS-CoV-2 was a lab leak though. Two other similar coronaviruses which killed people through a lung infected have emerged in the last two decades: SARS-CoV-1, which emerged in 2003 in China (and was traced to horseshoe bats), an MERS, which appeared in 2014 in Saudi Arabia (this was traced to African bats).

 

 

 

Note also that this gain-of-function research although controversial, is actually aimed at preventing the very sort of pandemic we have been hit with. Gain-of-function research is designed to help identify pathogens circulating in an animal population which have a high chance of jumping into human populations, and then causing a pandemic. If you can identify a pathogen on the verge of jumping into human populations, you can then take action to try to prevent this jump happening. For example, you can use disseminated vaccines on the animal population to eliminate the virus. 

 

So the whole purpose of gain-of-function research is to prevent pandemics. Thus the work Peter Daszak's charity was funding is in principle a good thing, done with good intentions.

 

Although it is controversial research, because gain-of-function experiments, if they are not conducted with the highest biosafety levels, can actually risk causing a pandemic.

 

 

 

 


Edited by Hip, 07 June 2021 - 05:22 PM.

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#79 bladedmind

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Posted 07 June 2021 - 05:28 PM

Erratum

Signatory Kristian Anderson, who a week before the letter was published had warned Fauci that the virus was potentially engineered, deleted his twitter account yesterday.

 

Kristian Anderson emailed Fauci in January 2020 about potential engineering of the virus, didn’t sign the Lancet  op-ed, but was the lead author of the more authoritative March 2020 letter in Nature that claimed, “It is improbable that SARS-CoV-2 emerged through laboratory manipulation of a related SARS-CoV-like coronavirus.”  Recently, he explained that he changed his mind based on evidence.

 

It remains correct that he deleted his twitter account yesterday, 

 

 

 


Edited by bladedmind, 07 June 2021 - 05:31 PM.

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#80 geo12the

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Posted 08 June 2021 - 04:00 PM

Long ago I was a paid flack in local politics.  It was my job to create advantageous framings and disseminate them through cultivation of reporters and other activities intended to create apparent popular endorsement.  More than once I was amazed to hear a spin I had created repeated almost verbatim a few months later by strangers – for example, at a party.   This at a petty low level by one person.  There is a huge “public relations” industry whose job is to manipulate public opinion for the benefit of clients -- governmental, political, commercial.   

 

I spent the first half of my life being duped by one ideology after another, and the second half realizing how I had been repeatedly duped.  These days I am suspicious of strident claims to authority, and assign cautious likelihood estimates to claims rather than indulge in all-or-nothing thinking. 

 

Just for the record I think that to date there is insufficient evidence to decisively favor either the zoonotic or lab-leak hypothesis – it’s an open question. 

 

This article from Nature, however, strikes me as blatant propaganda, even clumsy.  Among other gambits:  public discussion of the lab-leak hypothesis will delay pandemic resolution and increase racism (an implication of that claim is that people will die and suffer).  Clumsy to me, but prestigious confirmation to any audience predisposed to its message.  To me, its clumsiness signals a desperation in some quarters and prompts suspicion.  This is the most distinguished science journal in the world, and the following piece is labeled "news" rather than "opinion."

 

Divisive COVID ‘lab leak’ debate prompts dire warnings from researchers

 

I think we may never know the origins. The lab-leak hypothesis is one of the hypothesis. 

 

Today everything has been politicized. Like you I am suspicious of strident claims of authority, be they from the MAGA cult or the Woke left. Will someone be offended and think that is "dangerous and irresponsible!" ? Dear god I hope so!

 

But seriously I think there has been much unnecessary politicization of COVID and that has hampered our ability to find the truth. I encourage people to look outside of their cozy filter-news-bubbles which are AI created to encourage clicks for $$$.  


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#81 bladedmind

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Posted 08 June 2021 - 06:11 PM

For anyone interested, here is a detailed critical review of Lancet and Nature pandemic publication decisions. 

 

Only now is acceptance emerging that the science establishment colluded to dismiss the lab leak hypothesis as a conspiracy theory, assisted by prominent experts with clear conflicts of interest, patsy politicians and a pathetic media that mostly failed to do its job. And yet, at the heart of this scandal lie some of the world’s most influential science journals. These should provide a forum for pulsating debate as experts explore and test theories, especially on something as contentious and fascinating as the possible origins of a global pandemic. Instead, some have played a central role in shutting down discussion and discrediting alternative views on the origins, with disastrous consequences for our understanding of events.

 


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#82 bladedmind

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Posted 08 June 2021 - 08:22 PM

I think we may never know the origins. The lab-leak hypothesis is one of the hypothesis. 

 

Today everything has been politicized. Like you I am suspicious of strident claims of authority, be they from the MAGA cult or the Woke left. Will someone be offended and think that is "dangerous and irresponsible!" ? Dear god I hope so!

 

But seriously I think there has been much unnecessary politicization of COVID and that has hampered our ability to find the truth. I encourage people to look outside of their cozy filter-news-bubbles which are AI created to encourage clicks for $$$.  

 

I agree with that.  Just for fun I went through Peter Daszak’s twitter.  It’s the mirror image of some of the DRASTIC (lab leak a contender) twitter feeds, ranging from rationality to venom.  A few things there bother me though.   Assume that Daszak is meticulously informed and motivated.  Still, of anyone in the world he would have the most to lose – his philanthropic goals, his science empire, his professional and personal reputations -- if evidence tilted towards lab-leak. 

 

He has multiple conflicts of interest.   Standard bureaucratic practice is not to assign decisive influence to someone with major conflicts of interest, yet Daszak has sought and obtained such positions of influence.  Lord Hewart:  “It is not merely of some importance but is of fundamental importance that justice should not only be done, but should manifestly and undoubtedly be seen to be done.” 

 

Another hazard is a combination of political naivete and client capture.  One tweeter said lab leak was a conspiracy theory because it would require the main scientists at Wuhan and its lab workers to maintain a lying wall of silence about what happened.  PRC is a communist state, ruled by a Leninist party, with no freedom of speech, association, religion, where the state can exercise absolute control over any individual without public justification.   It’s not California.  It’s a softer totalitarianism than Mao or Stalin – if you don’t directly challenge the state you can thrive – but still the state is absolute.  PRC has a gigantic stake in avoiding a lab-leak finding, and has the means to completely control personnel and records at the lab – and has not been forthcoming  with either.

 

Daszak sincerely feels sorry for the the public plight of Wuhan scientists whom he has mentored and befriended over many years and does not want them to be shamed.  And he warns that attention to lab leak would reduce international collaboration on pandemic control.  But the latter two concerns are not relevant to weighing of evidence across competing hypotheses.


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#83 Mind

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 03:19 PM

Here is Daszak once again talking about his "Chinese Colleagues" potentially creating deadly viruses. Why is this guy not under investigation?

 

https://rumble.com/v...ruses-into.html


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#84 bladedmind

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 04:26 PM

I read a lot of twitter feeds by the Daszak crew (no lab leak) , and a lot by the DRASTIC crew (lab leak a live possibility).  My subjective impression – the Daszak crew tended more to ad hominem (Rasmussen, Maxmen), red herrings, and strident appeals to authority.   The DRASTIC crew could be nasty but was less so, engaged in much more internal criticism, energetic search for evidence, and detailed rational argumentation.   Yet the media image was that the zoonotics were true science and the lab leakers were crackpots and racists.  I think one reason for the shift is that the weight of DRASTIC’s argumentation eventually overwhelmed that of Daszak’s. 

 

The Pentagon gave $39 MILLION to Dr. Peter Daszak’s EcoHealth Alliance

 

The Daily Mail article claims that Daszak’s EcoHealth has received a total of 123 million dollars from the U.S. government.  Daszak subgrants to many organizations.  Doubtless many of the participants have noble motives, but also there is a strong material interest in the status quo.  


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#85 geo12the

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 05:03 PM

I agree with that.  Just for fun I went through Peter Daszak’s twitter.  It’s the mirror image of some of the DRASTIC (lab leak a contender) twitter feeds, ranging from rationality to venom.  A few things there bother me though.   Assume that Daszak is meticulously informed and motivated.  Still, of anyone in the world he would have the most to lose – his philanthropic goals, his science empire, his professional and personal reputations -- if evidence tilted towards lab-leak. 

 

He has multiple conflicts of interest.   Standard bureaucratic practice is not to assign decisive influence to someone with major conflicts of interest, yet Daszak has sought and obtained such positions of influence.  Lord Hewart:  “It is not merely of some importance but is of fundamental importance that justice should not only be done, but should manifestly and undoubtedly be seen to be done.” 

 

Another hazard is a combination of political naivete and client capture.  One tweeter said lab leak was a conspiracy theory because it would require the main scientists at Wuhan and its lab workers to maintain a lying wall of silence about what happened.  PRC is a communist state, ruled by a Leninist party, with no freedom of speech, association, religion, where the state can exercise absolute control over any individual without public justification.   It’s not California.  It’s a softer totalitarianism than Mao or Stalin – if you don’t directly challenge the state you can thrive – but still the state is absolute.  PRC has a gigantic stake in avoiding a lab-leak finding, and has the means to completely control personnel and records at the lab – and has not been forthcoming  with either.

 

Daszak sincerely feels sorry for the the public plight of Wuhan scientists whom he has mentored and befriended over many years and does not want them to be shamed.  And he warns that attention to lab leak would reduce international collaboration on pandemic control.  But the latter two concerns are not relevant to weighing of evidence across competing hypotheses.

 

 Part of the problem is  that to scientists in the west, the idea of a cover up seems so inconceivable because it would not happen here and it's something they cannot see themselves doing. But they are turning a blind eye to the fact that its not out of the realm of possibilities that the CCP, which has a long recent history of cover-ups and bending the truth when it suits them, to do such a thing. Sadly it may be too late for an investigation now since if it was a lab leak (and that is not definitive, it's just one hypothesis. the most probable origin is that it jumped from an animal like in SARS and MERS), all the evidence has been scrubbed away by this point. Our only hope is a whistle-blower but I doubt that will happen.  


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#86 geo12the

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 07:35 PM

There was a good news segment on this topic in yesterdays Nature journal:

 

https://www.nature.c...586-021-01529-3

 

One interesting thing they mention is a story I had not heard previously and one that seems like it should be getting more press:  In 2004 SARS escaped from a lab in China. It was contained. This seems relevant to what is going on now. Read more here:

 

https://www.cdc.gov/...2004-05-19.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC7096887/


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#87 Hip

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 10:41 PM

There was a good news segment on this topic in yesterdays Nature journal:

 

https://www.nature.c...586-021-01529-3

 

One interesting thing they mention is a story I had not heard previously and one that seems like it should be getting more press:  In 2004 SARS escaped from a lab in China. It was contained. This seems relevant to what is going on now. Read more here:

 

https://www.cdc.gov/...2004-05-19.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC7096887/

 

Yes, that 2004 SARS lab leak in China then prompted Chinese authorities to tighten biosafety rules, according to this article from 2004.

 

But as this 2020 article says, even the best security cannot overcome poor training or human error: 

Bio-safety level 4 labs like the one in Wuhan are the most sophisticated containment labs that are designed to work with the world’s deadliest pathogens. However lab design cannot overcome poor training or human error.

 

It should be made clear though that SARS did not originate from a lab: this virus first appeared in Guangdong province in 2002, and is thought most likely came from bats. The 2004 lab escape was a later event.

 

 

 

Given that bats are major reservoir of many other coronaviruses which could potentially jump to humans to create another pandemic, we really need new guidelines regarding how we handle bats and their feces.

 

Nobody should be cleaning bat feces without all the necessary protective equipment, otherwise another coronavirus might jump into human populations. 

 

We were lucky that SARS-CoV-2 has a relatively low death rate. Next time we might not be so lucky. The MERS coronavirus outbreak in Saudi Arabia in 2012 had a 35% death rate, but fortunately that was contained. MERS also came from bats.


Edited by Hip, 09 June 2021 - 10:45 PM.

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#88 rodentman

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 11:53 PM

Yes, that 2004 SARS lab leak in China then prompted Chinese authorities to tighten biosafety rules, according to this article from 2004.

 

But as this 2020 article says, even the best security cannot overcome poor training or human error: 

 

It should be made clear though that SARS did not originate from a lab: this virus first appeared in Guangdong province in 2002, and is thought most likely came from bats. The 2004 lab escape was a later event.

 

 

 

Given that bats are major reservoir of many other coronaviruses which could potentially jump to humans to create another pandemic, we really need new guidelines regarding how we handle bats and their feces.

 

Nobody should be cleaning bat feces without all the necessary protective equipment, otherwise another coronavirus might jump into human populations. 

 

We were lucky that SARS-CoV-2 has a relatively low death rate. Next time we might not be so lucky. The MERS coronavirus outbreak in Saudi Arabia in 2012 had a 35% death rate, but fortunately that was contained. MERS also came from bats.

 

To be clear, 'gain of function' research CAN be done 'safely', in a level 4 security lab.   The protocols are extremely strict, and if followed, make accidental infection nearly impossible.   This was the motivation for the Wuhan Level 4 virology lab... and it was done with good intentions.  But believing that these protocols would be followed in China is wishful thinking, and shows a level of naivete from the NIAID/Ecohealth Aliance.  And neither were aware that Dr. Shi decided to bypass the L4 lab for Bat/Coronavirus GOF research until recently.

 

And yes, a combo of the death rate of mers and the infectiousness of sars2 is frightening.  And imagine a virus that attacks the young, doesn't die when exposed to the outdoor elements, and mutates at a much higher rate.  Its a nightmare scenario for sure.


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#89 Mind

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 12:54 PM

Chinese defector claims to have solid evidence that this coronavirus was created in a lab as part of a bioweapon program. 

 

https://twitter.com/DrLiMengYAN1


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#90 bladedmind

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Posted 16 June 2021 - 04:40 AM

Jon Stewart, xenophobic, right-wing conspiracy theorist.

 


Edited by bladedmind, 16 June 2021 - 04:43 AM.

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