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Evidence shows nCoV is likely man-made by Wuhan lab

coronavirus

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#91 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 17 June 2021 - 09:40 PM

A scientist now openly states that the reason she and others discounted the lab leak theory is because it was promoted by Donald Trump:
 
The science around the lab leak theory hasn't changed. But here's why some scientists have .

 

The idea that scientists as a group are dispassionate arbiters of truth has never been true. Science has been entwined with politics since before Galileo.

 

She mentioned that she didn't want to be associated with Trump's racism. I wish someone would explain to be how covid escaping from the WIV was more racist than covid escaping from a filthy wet market.

 

 

 

 


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#92 geo12the

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 01:35 PM

A scientist now openly states that the reason she and others discounted the lab leak theory is because it was promoted by Donald Trump:
 
The science around the lab leak theory hasn't changed. But here's why some scientists have .

 

The idea that scientists as a group are dispassionate arbiters of truth has never been true. Science has been entwined with politics since before Galileo.

 

She mentioned that she didn't want to be associated with Trump's racism. I wish someone would explain to be how covid escaping from the WIV was more racist than covid escaping from a filthy wet market.

 

Trump spouts tons of nonsense. He still is spouting ridiculous nonsense about how he will be reinstated in August! It's not surprising that anyone with 1/2 a brain would be skeptical of what comes out of his mouth. And he tainted the idea with racism by constantly calling it "China Virus"

 

https://www.youtube....xBT0bDRRs&t=61s


Edited by geo12the, 18 June 2021 - 01:37 PM.

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#93 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 02:31 PM

Trump spouts tons of nonsense. He still is spouting ridiculous nonsense about how he will be reinstated in August! It's not surprising that anyone with 1/2 a brain would be skeptical of what comes out of his mouth. And he tainted the idea with racism by constantly calling it "China Virus"

 

https://www.youtube....xBT0bDRRs&t=61s

 

You'll get no argument from me on that point.  But that has no bearing whatsoever on "the science".  If scientists are publishing papers and making public statements based on the political situation rather than the facts, that's bad science and eventually will make bad policy.

 

The idea that this virus escaped from the WIV was always a plausible theory. It should have never been discounted.  If this virus escaped a lab, covering that up might result in continued lax lab security and and containment.  And the next time some virus escapes a lab, it might kill 30 million instead of 3.

 

We can't make good decisions and good policy if scientists are shading the truth according to their own political inclinations. 


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#94 Dorian Grey

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 02:59 PM

Trump spouts tons of nonsense. He still is spouting ridiculous nonsense about how he will be reinstated in August! It's not surprising that anyone with 1/2 a brain would be skeptical of what comes out of his mouth. And he tainted the idea with racism by constantly calling it "China Virus"

 

https://www.youtube....xBT0bDRRs&t=61s

 

Politics does influence science, but this is nothing to be proud of or embrace, & political influence from the left has been just as bizarre and harmful.  

 

Fauci has been the anti-Trump, and has also done great damage with the nonsense he spouts.  Remdesivir the new standard of care?  Shun any and all outpatient therapeutics, even something as safe & simple as correcting deficiencies of Vitamin-D and zinc?  Simple cloth masks as magic shields, to be worn indoors & out?  Vaccines for everyone, even if you already have natural immunity from infection?  Pre-teen children with little risk from COVID getting experimental jabs associated with myocarditis in young populations?  

 

Allowing politics to influence science should be recognized as a weakness, and not a banner to be proudly displayed.  


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#95 Mind

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 03:06 PM

Trump spouts tons of nonsense. He still is spouting ridiculous nonsense about how he will be reinstated in August! It's not surprising that anyone with 1/2 a brain would be skeptical of what comes out of his mouth. And he tainted the idea with racism by constantly calling it "China Virus"

 

https://www.youtube....xBT0bDRRs&t=61s

 

The scientists could have helped prevent the spread of the disease. Knowing where it came from could have helped focus the response. If the communist party in China would have cooperated, the virus sequence could have been identified quickly and remedies could have arrived sooner.

 

These scientists should not be in a place where they influence public policy. Politicians say a lot of hyperbolic things all the time, no matter the party. If the scientists can't do their job without playing politics, then they should find a different job.

 

Politics have also played a part in the absolute refusal to allow beneficial outpatient treatments (like HCQ, Ivermectin, etc...). This according to a recent expose' at FOX Corp. I can confirm that politics shut down HCQ discussion where I work as well.

 

It is disgusting to think that millions of people had to die for politics. I am disgusted by all of this.


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#96 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 03:21 PM

You'll notice that Tony Fauci is always preaching that the American people should "trust the science". He's stated this with regards to hydroxychloroquine, masking, the safety and effectiveness of the vaccine, etc., etc.
 
But if the science is enmeshed with politics to the point where published papers and position letters are being determined by the author's political persuasions - why should anyone trust "the science"?
 
And this intertwining of science and politics has real world implications. 
 
I have no opinion on the issue of whether hydroxycloroquine is in any way effective in treating covid. I just haven't kept up with the recent published research. But given that we now have admissions that political consideration influenced the scientific consensus on the lab leak theory - what is our level of confidence that it didn't influence the research and consensus on HCQ?
 
I have zero confidence that it wasn't a factor. The first big paper discounting HCQ published in The Lancet which had to be withdrawn was clearly using fabricated data. Even I as a lay person could see that based on the purported size of the database and where it was supposed to come from. It should have never passed peer review. The reviewers were never given access to the raw data and it shouldn't have passed anyone's smell test.  And yet scientists wrote it and other scientist reviewed it and approved it to be published.  They could only have been influenced by the fact that Trump vigorously promoted HCQ - a fact that was completely irrelevant to whether it actually worked or not.

 

The idea that an at least somewhat effective covid treatment was potentially suppressed because many in the scientific community had a visceral distain for Donald Trump and lives were lost that might have been saved is a sobering thought indeed.

 

Again, I'm not saying that HCQ does work. I'm saying the scientific reporting on the issue almost certainly was as much influenced by the politics as the scientific pronouncements on the lab leak theory which has become obvious to almost everyone.

 

If we're going to be asked to "trust the science", this sort of political intrusion into the field has to end now.

 

  


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#97 geo12the

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 03:22 PM

You'll get no argument from me on that point.  But that has no bearing whatsoever on "the science".  If scientists are publishing papers and making public statements based on the political situation rather than the facts, that's bad science and eventually will make bad policy.

 

The idea that this virus escaped from the WIV was always a plausible theory. It should have never been discounted.  If this virus escaped a lab, covering that up might result in continued lax lab security and and containment.  And the next time some virus escapes a lab, it might kill 30 million instead of 3.

 

We can't make good decisions and good policy if scientists are shading the truth according to their own political inclinations. 

 

I agree 100% that scientists should follow the science and not politics and that a rigorous investigation is needed, and in my opinion  the scientists at WHO who wrote the origins report were naïve about the intentions of the Chinese government and the possibility of a cover up . But I don't agree that "scientists are shading the truth according to their own political inclinations". Many scientists who detest Trump, myself included, think the lab leak hypothesis should be taken seriously.

 

I've done some tangential work that revelated to me how science bureaucracies can become mired in inefficiency and dysfunction and that is certainty the case with WHO in this debacle. They should have taken the lab-leak hypothesis more seriously. 

 

There is so much conflicting information swirling around this topic. For example about researchers falling ill, miners in a bat cave falling ill, Coronavirus research being done in BSL2 labs (I've worked in BSL2 labs, BSL2 is a joke), we need answers.


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#98 geo12the

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 03:27 PM

 

 

The idea that an at least somewhat effective covid treatment was potentially suppressed because many in the scientific community had a visceral distain for Donald Trump and lives were lost that might have been saved is a sobering thought indeed.

 

 

 

And the idea that some are still pushing HCQ as a treatment, after it has been shown to be ineffective in numerous studies, because they viscerally believe everything out of Trump's mouth, is equally appalling. 


Edited by geo12the, 18 June 2021 - 03:28 PM.

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#99 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 03:40 PM

I agree 100% that scientists should follow the science and not politics and that a rigorous investigation is needed, and in my opinion  the scientists at WHO who wrote the origins report were naïve about the intentions of the Chinese government and the possibility of a cover up . But I don't agree that "scientists are shading the truth according to their own political inclinations". Many scientists who detest Trump, myself included, think the lab leak hypothesis should be taken seriously.

 

I've done some tangential work that revelated to me how science bureaucracies can become mired in inefficiency and dysfunction and that is certainty the case with WHO in this debacle. They should have taken the lab-leak hypothesis more seriously. 

 

There is so much conflicting information swirling around this topic. For example about researchers falling ill, miners in a bat cave falling ill, Coronavirus research being done in BSL2 labs (I've worked in BSL2 labs, BSL2 is a joke), we need answers.

 

Naivety about the intentions of the Chinese government are irrelevant. It was never the case that the lab leak theory was implausible or irrational based on the science.  You've got people at the WIV publishing papers about adding novel spike proteins to bat coronaviruses 5 years before the covid-19 outbreak. Of course it was always possible that one of their experiments got out. You've got Kristian Anderson at Scripps sending Tony Fauci emails saying that "parts of this virus look engineered" and then you've got him as a signatory on a paper published less than two weeks later saying that it was highly unlikely to come from a lab. Given the time it would take a number of people to go back and forth to write the paper, and then the time for some handwaving attempt to review it by the publisher, it must have been written a few days after his email to Fauci.  This wasn't a case of bureaucratic inefficiency - this was a case of things outside the facts of the case influencing a scientist's public position on a subject of vital worldwide interest. 

 

When people don't trust the safety of the vaccine, the statements on the effectiveness of mask, or statements on the effectiveness of HCQ, in many cases the scientific community has no one to blame but themselves.  It's been obvious to anyone paying attention that the scientific consensus has been open to political and other irrelevant influences for some time now.


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#100 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 03:44 PM

And the idea that some are still pushing HCQ as a treatment, after it has been shown to be ineffective in numerous studies, because they viscerally believe everything out of Trump's mouth, is equally appalling. 

 

I don't have an opinion on HCQ one way or the other. But I have no confidence whatsoever that a disdain of Trump hasn't figured into some of this published research. That's not on me, that's on the scientific community. They don't deserve to be taken at face value given the way they've clearly been influenced by things other than the facts.


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#101 Dorian Grey

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 03:49 PM

Perhaps a refresher on the potential for HCQ is in order...

 

https://hcqmeta.com/

 

Never too late to correct mistakes of the past!  


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#102 geo12the

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 03:53 PM


 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/372/6543/694.1


Edited by geo12the, 18 June 2021 - 04:05 PM.

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#103 geo12the

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 03:59 PM

 
But if the science is enmeshed with politics to the point where published papers and position letters are being determined by the author's political persuasions - why should anyone trust "the science"?
 
And this intertwining of science and politics has real world implications. 
 
 

 

Can you cite an example of a scientist being denied publication because of their political persuasion? One that is real and not some exaggerated thing on Fox news?

 

In China they force scientists to be politically obedient. We don't do that in the US. That is why we lead the world in Science. You can't expect scientists to be your definition of politically correct.  

 

While the response to COVID has not been perfect, today we have vaccines that are eliminating the spread of the virus and saving countless lives. Instead of complaining that scientists were not obedient enough to Trump, let's be thankful for that.


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#104 geo12the

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 04:11 PM

I don't have an opinion on HCQ one way or the other. But I have no confidence whatsoever that a disdain of Trump hasn't figured into some of this published research. That's not on me, that's on the scientific community. They don't deserve to be taken at face value given the way they've clearly been influenced by things other than the facts.

 

You make vague accusations against science that cannot be proven. Scientists will do their job regardless of how they feel about Trump. We don't live in a dictatorship, at least not yet. You can't force scientists to love Dear Leader like they do in North Korea. 


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#105 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 05:03 PM

Can you cite an example of a scientist being denied publication because of their political persuasion? One that is real and not some exaggerated thing on Fox news?

 

In China they force scientists to be politically obedient. We don't do that in the US. That is why we lead the world in Science. You can't expect scientists to be your definition of politically correct.  

 

While the response to COVID has not been perfect, today we have vaccines that are eliminating the spread of the virus and saving countless lives. Instead of complaining that scientists were not obedient enough to Trump, let's be thankful for that.

 

Scientists being denied publication isn't the issue here.  We have a scientist stating that she and her colleagues did not want to give support to the lab leak hypothesis because it was promoted by Trump.  This isn't me making an accusation, this is a freely given admission. It's isn't debatable whether this happened - we have a confession.

 

In any case that fact had been made plainly obvious outside of her confession. After the story in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, suddenly we had scientists coming out of the woodwork sheepishly admitting that "yeah, well it could have come from a lab". Scientists that ran the gamut from discounting the theory to openly ridiculing it.  All the up to Tony Faci who admitted "I'm not convinced that covid developed naturally". What had changed? What new information did this scientists come into possession of to change their mind? None. What had changed was the political equation. Trump had been defeated, a bit of time had passed, and they felt it safe to admit was was obvious all along.

 

Apparently some scientist believe that it is ok to tell "a noble lie". A lie that serves the greater good. Fauci clearly believes that. "There's no reason for anyone outside of a hospital to wear a mask". "Everyone should be wearing a mask when they're a around other people" "Two masks are even better". "We just need two weeks to bend the curve". "This virus shows every evidence that it evolved naturally".

 

And those scientists that knew that the lab leak was plausible but said otherwise also thought they were telling a noble lie. The means justified the ends, and the end was getting Trump out of office. Or at the least, not in their minds helping in his potential re-election. Their calculus was simple "If Trump says X, my position must be not(X)".

 

But, these people apparently do not understand that trust isn't something that you can turn on and off like a light switch. Trust is something conferred on you by others, you don't get to claim it for yourself. And you can't go around telling noble lies, get caught out on them, and expect people to believe you in the future.


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#106 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 05:05 PM

You make vague accusations against science that cannot be proven. Scientists will do their job regardless of how they feel about Trump.

 

You did read the admission I posted at the top of this page of a scientist admitting that she and some of her colleagues did exactly the opposite, no?


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#107 geo12the

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 05:51 PM

You did read the admission I posted at the top of this page of a scientist admitting that she and some of her colleagues did exactly the opposite, no?

 

That's not my interpretation. Maybe the people here accusing scientists of being overly political and politicizing the pandemic are themselves guilty of politicization? The fact that people here are still pushing the narrative that "Liberal scientists hijacked HCQ to make Trump look bad" shows they are the ones politicizing things. Let me tell you about my brother. He is a pulmonologist in NY. Very smart guy. Publishes papers. He has treated thousands and thousands of COVID patients. He was infected with COVID himself but was asymptomatic.  He also happens to be a Republican. AND he voted for Trump. He used HCQ as a treatment for his patients early on in the pandemic. He was hopeful it would work. But it didn't. He stoped using it on his patients because in his experience it did not work in the many patients he gave it to. He is just one example but I cite him to point out that maybe, just maybe HCQ does not work? Maybe all the published research papers that show lack of efficacy the experts here  love to tear apart are actually correct and it's not some grand conspiracy by Trump-hating scientists? 

 

On the lab-leak scientists don't agree on which hypothesis is correct. But there is always debate in science that is normal. Again it's not a conspiracy by Trump-hating scientists.

 

At the end of the day it's ridiculous to expect scientists to confirm to your view of political correctness. What do you propose re-education camps? Quotas for Trump loving scientists? Get real!


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#108 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 06:15 PM

I'm not saying the lab leak hypothesis is correct. All I'm saying is that is plausible. It was always plausible. At least as plausible as the wet market theory which pretty much no one believes now.

 

And yet, we had experts in the field saying things like it was "highly unlikely that this virus originated in a lab" to down right ridiculing the idea as the ravings of conspiracy kooks.  But now in the last month it is an idea that can be talked about in decent company without being painted as a QAnon wacko.

 

The only thing that has changed between then and now is a turnover in the political leadership. There is no new information.  And we also now have some of the internal communications between healthcare officials that were saying one thing to each other (this virus looks potentially engineered) and something quite different to the public (this virus clearly appears to be of natural origin). I don't know about you, but I don't much enjoy being lied to.

 

The lab leak theory was always credible. The only thing not credible are the scientists that publicly dismissed it.

 

 


Edited by Daniel Cooper, 18 June 2021 - 08:06 PM.

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#109 geo12the

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 08:26 PM

I'm not saying the lab leak hypothesis is correct. All I'm saying is that is plausible. It was always plausible. At least as plausible as the wet market theory which pretty much no one believes now.

 

And yet, we had experts in the field saying things like it was "highly unlikely that this virus originated in a lab" to down right ridiculing the idea as the ravings of conspiracy kooks.  But now in the last month it is an idea that can be talked about in decent company without being painted as a QAnon wacko.

 

The only thing that has changed between then and now is a turn over in the political leadership. There is no new information.  And we also now have some of the internal communications between healthcare officials that were saying one thing to each other (this virus looks potentially engineered) and something quite different to the public (this virus clearly appears to be of natural origin). I don't know about you, but I don't much enjoy being lied to.

 

The lab leak theory was always credible. The only thing not credible are the scientists that publicly dismissed it.

 

Bottom line is the hypothesis has always been there and some scientists always thought it was credible. Was there a backlash against the Trump administrations politicization of the pandemic and use of terms like "China Virus" that ended up overly dismissing the theory? Yes.  That backlash was wrong headed. But what it was a backlash against was even worse in my opinion.   


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#110 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 08:42 PM

Bottom line is the hypothesis has always been there and some scientists always thought it was credible. Was there a backlash against the Trump administrations politicization of the pandemic and use of terms like "China Virus" that ended up overly dismissing the theory? Yes.  That backlash was wrong headed. But what it was a backlash against was even worse in my opinion.

 
You can say that "some scientists always thought it was credible", certainly that was true. But the movers and shakers in the scientific community - those of high public profile - particularly that part of the scientific community which has become embedded in the government almost to a person dismissed the theory that a virus had escaped from WIV.  And the scientists that swam against this tide were in some cases publicly ridiculed and banned from various social media platforms. Let us not forget - till about a month ago asserting that covid-19 had escaped from WIV was a pretty sure way to get you kicked off of facebook, youtube, twitter, etc.
 
You seem to blame this bad behavior in the scientific community on Donald Trump - as if scientist are only reactive and have no moral agency of their own. But, I think scientists are just as responsible for their actions as the next guy. These people are not children after all.
 
You close with what appears to be an endorsement of the "noble lie", e.g. "But what it was a backlash against was even worse in my opinion".  So it's ok if scientists shade the truth or outright lie, as long as they've got a really good reason for doing so. And what could be better reason than the ouster of Donald Trump, i.e. "literally Hitler". Ok fine. But don't utter a peep when someone opines that they don't "trust the science" since you've established that "the science" is malleable in the face of political goals.

 

Call me old fashioned, but I'm of the opinion that scientists should represent the facts and data as they know them truthfully regardless of who might be in office at any given moment.

 

 


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#111 geo12the

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 09:01 PM

 
You can say that "some scientists always thought it was credible", certainly that was true. But the movers and shakers in the scientific community - those of high public profile - particularly that part of the scientific community which has become embedded in the government almost to a person dismissed the theory that a virus had escaped from WIV.  And the scientists that swam against this tide were in some cases publicly ridiculed and banned from various social media platforms. Let us not forget - till about a month ago asserting that covid-19 had escaped from WIV was a pretty sure way to get you kicked off of facebook, youtube, twitter, etc.
 
You seem to blame this bad behavior in the scientific community on Donald Trump - as if scientist are only reactive and have no moral agency of their own. But, I think scientists are just as responsible for their actions as the next guy. These people are not children after all.
 
You close with what appears to be an endorsement of the "noble lie", e.g. "But what it was a backlash against was even worse in my opinion".  So it's ok if scientists shade the truth or outright lie, as long as they've got a really good reason for doing so. And what could be better reason than the ouster of Donald Trump, i.e. "literally Hitler". Ok fine. But don't utter a peep when someone opines that they don't "trust the science" since you've established that "the science" is malleable in the face of political goals.

 

Call me old fashioned, but I'm of the opinion that scientists should represent the facts and data as they know them truthfully regardless of who might be in office at any given moment.

 

Yes, I blame Trump. He politicized the pandemic and his calculus is always what is in his best interest and how best to entertain his fawning fan base. Yes the lab leak was played down at first BUT this was a time when people were still absorbing all of the facts about what the hell happed and then some doofus is screaming "China virus!", it's not surprising they would want to distance themselves from that.   But I just don't think it rises to the level of malfeasance that you do. Fact is we don't know what happed. Fact is most scientists still favor the hypothesis that it jumped from an animal. You are faulting then for stating what they believe. did they state it too strongly? yes.   Fact is we DO have more information than we did then for example about researchers falling ill. 


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#112 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 09:39 PM

You can't blame Trump for scientists misrepresenting the likely scenarios that lead up to this pandemic. Scientists have an obligation to represent the facts as they truly understand them at any given moment. Even if the President is an idiot and makes "mean tweets".  Otherwise they lose any claim of having any special understanding above the public at large. They become just another institution with their own political ends.

 

The scientific community burned a lot of credibility on this political agenda. It will not be regained overnight. Worst yet, they have run the risk of sweeping what may be a monumental hazard to the world under the rug and preventing it from being addressed. If this virus escaped from WIV then obviously there are issues that need to be addressed with regards to the safely of gain of function research. We've lost about 3.5million so far. Next time it might be 10x that number.

 

Out of control gain of function research has the potential to make Chernobyl look like a fart in a thunderstorm. In fact, it may already have.

 

 

 

 


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#113 geo12the

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 11:49 PM

You can't blame Trump for scientists misrepresenting the likely scenarios that lead up to this pandemic. 

 

You are blaming them for not having all the answers. There are experts that believed then AND still strongly believe that it did NOT come out of the lab. If they are saying that, you and I may not agree with that opinion, but they are entitled to their opinion and it's not accurate to call it misrepresenting. It's a controversial topic with much disagreement in the scientific community. Someone stating what they think is not being political, it's stating what they believe. It's not settled science here. The complicating factor here is how this whole thing was unnecessarily politicized by the Trump administration.  They are at fault for the politicization, not the scientists. The fact that many scientists recoiled at "China Virus" hysteria does not make them political, it makes them decent people.

 

You can't expect scientists to:

  1.  be infallible
  2. agree on everything
  3. not give their opinions even if they are wrong
  4. kowtow to politicians
  5. not hold political opinions 

There are many arm-chair scientists here who have are making sweeping assessments that are not based in reality.


Edited by geo12the, 18 June 2021 - 11:50 PM.

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#114 bladedmind

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Posted 19 June 2021 - 12:24 AM

A scientist now openly states that the reason she and others discounted the lab leak theory is because it was promoted by Donald Trump:
 
The science around the lab leak theory hasn't changed. But here's why some scientists have .

 

The idea that scientists as a group are dispassionate arbiters of truth has never been true. Science has been entwined with politics since before Galileo.

 

She mentioned that she didn't want to be associated with Trump's racism. I wish someone would explain to be how covid escaping from the WIV was more racist than covid escaping from a filthy wet market.

 

Sadly, that widely distributed report was grossly mistaken and smeared one of the terrific DRASTIC researchers, a postdoc who at great professional risk has been calling for investigation of the lab-leak hypothesis since March 2020. 

 

I've been reading DRASTIC twitter threads and they have long discussed why so many scientists for almost 18 months have been silent.  Some reasons:  The top journals, top bureaucrat-scientists, top grantmakers signaled in February 2020 that lab-leak would set back your career and reduce grant application success; there are considerable bureaucratic-scientific-journal commercial interests in China and anyone going against its official line would be blocked from future collaborations with scholars in that country; and the more contemptible reason described by Chan.

https://twitter.com/...978840346791945

It started like this.  An NBC reporter asked her why so many scientists were reluctant to investigate the lab-leak hypothesis and she descriptively explained:
 

Chan said there had been trepidation among some scientists about publicly discussing the lab leak hypothesis for fear that their words could be misconstrued or used to support racist rhetoric about how the coronavirus emerged. Trump fueled accusations that the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a research lab in the city where the first Covid-19 cases were reported, was connected to the outbreak, and on numerous occasions he called the pathogen the "Wuhan virus" or "kung flu."

“At the time, it was scarier to be associated with Trump and to become a tool for racists, so people didn't want to publicly call for an investigation into lab origins," she said. 

 

She was not one of the scared scientists, but one of the brave ones.

 

The NBC story was distorted and  went viral as “Harvard scientist admits Trump hatred influenced experts who denied Wuhan Lab Leak Theory.”  Some venues have issued corrections, some have not.  Her twitter today:

 

Thank you @DailyCaller @Dylan_Housman and @realDailyWire  @RealSaavedra for correcting the story. I'm still receiving a flood of angry emails and even phone calls to my workplace. Likely because other news copied you without correcting, e.g., @thehill @adamlbarnes @zerohedge

 

There are some lessons here, but I don’t have time to think them through and spell them out.  One, maybe, is that there a lot of public anger on hair trigger about the deceptive suppression of the lab-leak hypothesis.  Another is that many people (left AND right) bring high political priors to their evaluation of coronavirus facts.  I think that’s inevitable, but one can strive to overcome it by listening to arguments and evidence from all sides and ignoring the constant temptation to ad hominem and appeal to authority. 
 


Edited by bladedmind, 19 June 2021 - 12:25 AM.

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#115 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 19 June 2021 - 12:44 AM

You are blaming them for not having all the answers.

 

I expect basic competency in their field. The theory that a virus that was obviously related to a family of bat viruses, that had acquired a spike protein similar to that on SARS1 which made it uniquely suited to infect humans had come from an institute known for acquiring, studying, and modifying bat viruses and which had in fact published a paper on adding a spike protein to a bat coronavirus was never wacky, outlandish, nor implausible. It was always a very realistic possibility to anyone with a modicum of reason and logic.

 

And yet, top people in the field told us over and over again how exceedingly unlikely it was that this could have happened even to the point of calling it a conspiracy theory.

 

They simply were not acting in good faith, a fact that you have admitted in other posts in this thread. But .... the ends justified the means.

 

I'm not asking for infallibility, I'm just asking for basic honesty.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Daniel Cooper, 19 June 2021 - 01:00 AM.

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#116 bladedmind

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Posted 22 June 2021 - 12:05 AM

Dam is breaking.

 

The signers of the February 2020 Lancet letter that was organized by Peter Daszak declared no competing interests.   Lancet, with no evaluative commentary, today posted a competing interests statement from DaszakComments to Lancet are scorching.

 

There was also public fury at Lancet for appointing Daszak as head of its own Covid-19 Commission.   Without any fanfare the Commission website now declares that Daszak is “recused from Commission work on the origins of the pandemic.”

 

 

If you like video humor:

“So I got a call from Tedros saying, Peter, we need you for a job in Wuhan…”

 

 


Edited by bladedmind, 22 June 2021 - 12:06 AM.

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#117 geo12the

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Posted 22 June 2021 - 04:10 PM

Interesting story in the NY times about another lab leak:

 

Soviets Once Denied a Deadly Anthrax Lab Leak. U.S. Scientists Backed the Story.
The accident and a subsequent cover-up have renewed relevance as scientists search for the origins of Covid-19.

 

https://www.nytimes....ab-anthrax.html

 

I am not sure if it is behind the paywall. Here are some highlights:

 

 

YEKATERINBURG, Russia — Patients with unexplained pneumonias started showing up at hospitals; within days, dozens were dead. The secret police seized doctors’ records and ordered them to keep silent. American spies picked up clues about a lab leak, but the local authorities had a more mundane explanation: contaminated meat.
 
It took more than a decade for the truth to come out.
 
In April and May 1979, at least 66 people died after airborne anthrax bacteria emerged from a military lab in the Soviet Union. But leading American scientists voiced confidence in the Soviets’ claim that the pathogen had jumped from animals to humans. Only after a full-fledged investigation in the 1990s did one of those scientists confirm the earlier suspicions: The accident in what is now the Russian Urals city of Yekaterinburg was a lab leak, one of the deadliest ever documented.
 
Nowadays, some of the victims’ graves appear abandoned, their names worn off their metal plates in the back of a cemetery on the outskirts of town, where they were buried in coffins with an agricultural disinfectant. But the story of the accident that took their lives, and the cover-up that hid it, has renewed relevance as scientists search for the origins of Covid-19.
It shows how an authoritarian government can successfully shape the narrative of a disease outbreak and how it can take years — and, perhaps, regime change — to get to the truth.
 
“Wild rumors do spread around every epidemic,” Joshua Lederberg, the Nobel-winning American biologist, wrote in a memo after a fact-finding trip to Moscow in 1986. “The current Soviet account is very likely to be true.”
 
Many scientists believe that the virus that caused the Covid-19 pandemic evolved in animals and jumped at some point to humans. But scientists are also calling for deeper investigation of the possibility of an accident at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.
 
There is also widespread concern that the Chinese government — which, like the Soviet government decades before it, dismisses the possibility of a lab leak — is not providing international investigators with access and data that could shed light on the pandemic’s origins.
 
“We all have a common interest in finding out if it was due to a laboratory accident,” Matthew Meselson, a Harvard biologist, said in an interview this month from Cambridge, Mass., referring to the coronavirus pandemic. “Maybe it was a kind of accident that our present guidelines don’t protect against adequately.”
 

 


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#118 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 22 June 2021 - 06:27 PM

Dam is breaking.

 

The signers of the February 2020 Lancet letter that was organized by Peter Daszak declared no competing interests.   Lancet, with no evaluative commentary, today posted a competing interests statement from DaszakComments to Lancet are scorching.

 

There was also public fury at Lancet for appointing Daszak as head of its own Covid-19 Commission.   Without any fanfare the Commission website now declares that Daszak is “recused from Commission work on the origins of the pandemic.”

 

 

If you like video humor:

“So I got a call from Tedros saying, Peter, we need you for a job in Wuhan…”

 

The Lancet hasn't exactly covered themselves in glory during this entire covid-19 episode. Let us not forget that they are the ones that had to retract the alleged study showing that HCQ did not work where even I could tell that the underlying data had to be fabricated.

 

I remember looking at some of the purported data that showed more cases in Australia than the Australian Ministry of Health was reporting at the time.

 

 


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#119 rodentman

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Posted 22 June 2021 - 10:34 PM

The Lancet hasn't exactly covered themselves in glory during this entire covid-19 episode. Let us not forget that they are the ones that had to retract the alleged study showing that HCQ did not work where even I could tell that the underlying data had to be fabricated.

 

I remember looking at some of the purported data that showed more cases in Australia than the Australian Ministry of Health was reporting at the time.

 

While I'm happy that Peter Daszak has been fired from his COVID origins position, it better not stop here.  This does nothing to stop the corruption within our government and our media.  The fact that so many people were involved with the suppression of facts on such an important topic should make everyone very angry and concerned... and there better be a legitimate investigation into all of this.


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#120 Advocatus Diaboli

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Posted 26 June 2021 - 07:50 AM

Article at SciTechDaily:  

 

Researchers Find COVID-19 Virus Was “Highly Human Adapted” – Exact Origins Still a Mystery

From the article:

 

"Surprisingly, the results showed that SARS-CoV-2 bound to ACE2 on human cells more tightly than any of the tested animal species, including bats and pangolins. If one of the animal species tested was the origin, it would normally be expected to show the highest binding to the virus."

 

Link to the study written about in the article.

 

 

 

 


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