355 replies to this topic

[Dorian Grey]

Dr John said it was taken from a pangolin, but enhanced through serial passage through humanized mice...  GAIN OF FUNCTION!  

 

This is so unbelievable, it wouldn't even make a good movie plot.  What are they thinking?  

 

Good night all!  

[Daniel Cooper]

Dr John said it was taken from a pangolin, but enhanced through serial passage through humanized mice...  GAIN OF FUNCTION!  

 

This is so unbelievable, it wouldn't even make a good movie plot.  What are they thinking?  

 

Good night all!  

 

By in large, the world is run by fools.

[joesixpack]

News Flash...  Those brilliant Chinese bio-lab researchers have created a new SARS-CoV-2 "like" coronavirus, with a ONE HUNDRED PERCENT FATALITY RATE in humanized ACE-2 mice.  

 

The virus appears to be transmissible by air/respiration just like COVID, but infects the BRAIN once it enters the body, and NOT A SINGLE TEST ANIMAL SURVIVED.  

 

The researchers say this virus needs more study, as we'll need to know how to combat these virus in the future if they ever spring up naturally from nature.  

 

Dr John is worried!  

 

https://youtu.be/Jcu...p_SXeauJ3f8Cy0B

 

So am I!  

 

Yikes, the video was taken down.

 

This reminds me of the research done at the time of the original Sars eruption in the early 2,000's. This was the first attempt to create a vaccine. My recollection is that they came up with some vaccines, that were used on test animals. All of the test animals died from the vaccine. 

Edited by joesixpack, 13 January 2024 - 07:35 PM.

[joesixpack]

I've always thought omicron was a BIG-FIX bug, created to overtake and eliminate the highly pathogenic pre-omicron pulmonary bio-weapons.  

 

They had to just go for it and cut it loose in Africa.  Can you imagine a scientific proposal to release another lab bug to fix the one that got out a while back?  

 

Nope...  Just get-er-done!  Whoa, where did that come from...  Praise God!  We're saved!  

 

That would be the same kind of thinking that is currently coming from Bill Gates, who thinks it would be a good idea to saturate the atmosphere with particles that would block sun light. While finally coming to the correct conclusion that the sun controls the climate, no thought is given to unintended consequences.

[Mind]

The link to the research is gone as well. Was anyone able to verify the paper? We we live in the age of AI when many things can be easily faked.

 

This dangerous research is like a machine that cannot be turned off. There appears to be no ethical people left in the top tier of the US government bureaucracy, certainly not at the FDA or CDC. When reasonable ethical people raise the alarm, they are silenced. What the hell is going on? 

[adamh]

Thanks. But by taking Chinese research under the CCP at face value, one is ill-informed.

That is for sure, all countries lie but china is the biggest liar. None of the figures or statistics are correct, they exaggerate or minimize all the numbers and cover up anything bad. They have an excellent pr department constantly claiming major discoveries which don't exist.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

The youtube video unavailable message states "This video has been removed by the uploader". It is unknown if the takedown was made by Campbell or not)

 

 

The video can be found on Rumble here (as of 1/13/2023 about 15:40).

 

A version of the study can be found here.

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 13 January 2024 - 11:47 PM.

[joesixpack]

The link to the research is gone as well. Was anyone able to verify the paper? We we live in the age of AI when many things can be easily faked.

 

This dangerous research is like a machine that cannot be turned off. There appears to be no ethical people left in the top tier of the US government bureaucracy, certainly not at the FDA or CDC. When reasonable ethical people raise the alarm, they are silenced. What the hell is going on? 

 

Here is a link to the research paper pdf.

 

https://www.biorxiv....4008v1.full.pdf

Edited by joesixpack, 13 January 2024 - 11:53 PM.

[joesixpack]

Apparently this research involving Pangolins has been done before, and will continue to be done according this statement from the end of the paper.

 

 

89. To the best of our knowledge, this is the first report showing that a SARS-CoV-2-

90. 106  related pangolin coronavirus can cause 100% mortality in hACE2 mice, suggesting a

91. 107  risk for GX_P2V to spill over into humans. Our findings are evidently inconsistent with

92. 108  those of Zhengli Shi et al. (5), who tested the virulence of GX_P2V in two different

93. 109  hACE2 mouse models. It is important to note that we did not isolate the wild-type

94. 110  GX_P2V strain. The study by Zhengli Shi et al tested the GX_P2V(short_3UTR)

bioRxiv preprint doi: https://doi.org/10.1...24.01.03.574008; this version posted January 4, 2024. The copyright holder for this preprint (which was not certified by peer review) is the author/funder, who has granted bioRxiv a license to display the preprint in perpetuity. It is made available under aCC-BY-NC-ND 4.0 International license.

111. 111  variant that we reported. However, the adaptative evolutionary changes of this variant

112. 112  during their laboratory culture remain understudied. In fact, according to additional

113. 113  infection experiments, the uncloned GX_P2V(short_3UTR) also resulted in 100%

114. 114  mortality in hACE2 mice. Due to the propensity of coronaviruses to undergo adaptive

115. 115  mutation during passage culture, we cloned and analyzed mutations in

116. 116  GX_P2V(short_3UTR), focusing specifically on the pathogenicity of the cloned strains.

117. 117  The high pathogenicity mechanism of GX_P2V C7 in hACE2 mice, in the absence of

118. 118  the wild-type GX_P2V control, requires further investigation. Compared to the original

119. 119  sequence of GX_P2V(short_3UTR), GX_P2V C7 has two amino acid mutations in the

120. 120  spike protein. Given the close relationship between coronavirus virulence and spike

121. 121  protein mutations (7), it is possible that GX_P2V C7 has undergone a virulence-

122. 122  enhancing mutation. However, it is important to note that our hACE2 mouse model

123. 123  may be relatively unique. The company has not yet published a paper on this hACE2

124. 124  mouse model, but our results suggest that hACE2 may be highly expressed in the mouse

125. 125  brain. Additionally, according to the data provided by the company, these hACE2 mice

126. 126  have abnormal physiology, as indicated by relatively reduced serum triglyceride,

127. 127  cholesterol, and lipase levels, compared to those of wild-type C57BL/6J mice. In

128. 128  summary, our study provides a unique perspective on the pathogenicity of GX_P2V

129. 129  and offers a distinct alternative model for understanding the pathogenic mechanisms of

130. 130  SARS-CoV-2-related coronaviruses.

131
132 Lai Wei1,#, Shuiqing Liu1,#, Shanshan Lu1,#, Shengdong Luo2, Xiaoping An1, Huahao

bioRxiv preprint doi: https://doi.org/10.1...24.01.03.574008; this version posted January 4, 2024. The copyright holder for this preprint (which was not certified by peer review) is the author/funder, who has granted bioRxiv a license to display the preprint in perpetuity. It is made available under aCC-BY-NC-ND 4.0 International license.

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Fan1, Weiwei Chen2, Erguang Li3,*, Yigang Tong1,*, Lihua Song1,* 1 Beijing Advanced Innovation Center for Soft Matter Science and Engineering,

College of Life Science and Technology, Beijing University of Chemical Technology, Beijing, China. 2Research Center for Clinical Medicine, The Fifth Medical Center of PLA General Hospital, Beijing, China. 3State Key Laboratory of Pharmaceutical Biotechnology, Medical School, Nanjing University, China

#Contributed equally. *email: erguang@nju.edu.cn; tong.yigang@gmail.com; songlihua@gmail.com

REFE

 

[Daniel Cooper]

The link to the research is gone as well. Was anyone able to verify the paper? We we live in the age of AI when many things can be easily faked.

 

This dangerous research is like a machine that cannot be turned off. There appears to be no ethical people left in the top tier of the US government bureaucracy, certainly not at the FDA or CDC. When reasonable ethical people raise the alarm, they are silenced. What the hell is going on? 

 

I fixed the link in my post. It had some google extension nonsense meshed in with the URL. It is off of www.biorxiv.org so the site at least should be legit.

 

 

[Daniel Cooper]

Francis Collins now admits that Covid leaking from the Wuhan Institute of Virology was not a conspiracy theory;

 

Francis Collins concedes Covid lab leak NOT conspiracy despite spearheading attacks against scientists touted theory

[Dorian Grey]

Daily Mail has a detail on the new Chinese Super-COVID

 

https://www.dailymai...-rate-mice.html

 

Chinese scientists 'create' a mutant coronavirus strain that attacks the BRAIN and has a 100% kill rate in mice - as they admit there's a 'risk it spills over to humans

 

Chinese scientists have been experimenting with a mutant coronavirus strain that is 100 percent lethal in mice — despite concerns such research could spark another pandemic.

 

Scientists in Beijing — who are linked to the Chinese military — cloned a Covid-like virus found in pangolins, known as GX_P2V, and used it to infect mice.

The mice had been 'humanized', meaning they were engineered to express a protein found in people, with the goal being to assess how the virus might react in humans

Every rodent that was infected with the pathogen died within eight days, which the researchers described as 'surprisingly' quick.

The team were also surprised to find high levels of viral load in the mice's brains and eyes - suggesting the virus, despite being related to Covid, multiplies and spreads through the body in a unique way.

 

 

[Mind]

Francis Collins now admits that Covid leaking from the Wuhan Institute of Virology was not a conspiracy theory;

 

Francis Collins concedes Covid lab leak NOT conspiracy despite spearheading attacks against scientists touted theory

 

Lots and lots of slow "CYA" coming out lately. No one is being held accountable for lying to the public, destroying small businesses, ruining careers and lives, etc... What is going on? Where are people with the power to correct these mistakes, fire people, remand the perps to custody while awaiting trial? There is no one. We are on our own - shortly to become victims of "disease X" that the UN/WHO/WEF keeps talking about.

Edited by Mind, 16 January 2024 - 11:53 PM.

[Mind]

Just another reminder that Fauci, Daszak, Drosten, etc. were well aware of the gain-of-function research going on way before the COVID panic. They had conferences and media interviews where they bragged about how easy it was to manipulate coronaviruses.

 

Then suddenly in 2020 they all claimed that the lab leak was ridiculous.

 

Why does anyone trust anything they say about amything?

[Daniel Cooper]

Just another reminder that Fauci, Daszak, Drosten, etc. were well aware of the gain-of-function research going on way before the COVID panic. They had conferences and media interviews where they bragged about how easy it was to manipulate coronaviruses.

 

Then suddenly in 2020 they all claimed that the lab leak was ridiculous.

 

Why does anyone trust anything they say about amything?

 

Fauci claims that what he was funding in Wuhan wasn't gain of function, but he does so by the expedient of having his own personal definition of "gain of function" that no person had ever used prior to covid-19 and no one believes except him. 

 

But it seems he will never be held to account of what he did.

[Mind]

New documents almost completely slam the door on the implausible "natural origin" theory. Fauci (and Collins, and Birx, and Daszak, and Baric, etc.) lied. Criminal prosecutions are desperately needed.

 

Remember Fauci said he had an "open mind" about COVID origins. That was a lie. Behind the scenes he was leading the charge to destroy anyone who promoted the lab leak theory.

Edited by Mind, 02 February 2024 - 07:14 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

New documents almost completely slam the door on the implausible "natural origin" theory. Fauci (and Collins, and Birx, and Daszak, and Baric, etc.) lied. Criminal prosecutions are desperately needed.

 

Remember Fauci said he had an "open mind" about COVID origins. That was a lie. Behind the scenes he was leading the charge to destroy anyone who promoted the lab leak theory.

 

The material in that City Journal article is stunning. I previously thought that the case for a leak out of Wuhan was proved "by a preponderance of the evidence" (the standard of proof for a civil case in the US), but I think we've now moved to it being proved "beyond a reasonable doubt" (the standard of proof for a criminal trial in the US).  

 

People in our government, most certainly including Dr. Anthony Fauci, know damned well that SARS-Cov-2 leaked from Wuhan and that our health bureaucracy had a hand in directing and funding some of that effort. 

 

In a just world some of these people would be brought to trial and convicted. But of all the things that governments do poorly, protecting their own is not one of them.

[Mind]

This should come as a shock to no one. One of the lead "misinformation" researchers who called the lab-leak theory a "racist conspiracy theory", is a fraud and liar. He used sock-puppets on Wikipedia to make himself look like an "intellectual". Of course, the stupid national media in the US gave him all kinds of interviews and accolades during the COVID panic.

 

A lot of people are still unaware of the propaganda they were exposed to during the COVID panic, mostly led by the US/UK. Real peer-reviewed science was censored. Fake doctors and incompetent experts were trotted out on TV. The Lancet published fake studies. Dr. Fauci, Dr. Birx, Dr. Collins, and many other brazenly lied to the public.

 

Yet no one is being held accountable. We are in a dangerous period. If some other disease situation develops, the same incompetent liars are going to try to implement the same destructive health policies. Brace yourself.

[Daniel Cooper]

Rand Paul's opening statement on yesterday's Senate hearing on the origins of covid-19.

Note some of the conversations between Fauci and his lieutenants that were obtained after years of FOIA suits. And the fact that some of this associates are discussing the fact that they have deleted emails in violation of the US Freedom of Information Act and they they think "they're ok" as a result of those deletions.

[Mind]

 

Rand Paul's opening statement on yesterday's Senate hearing on the origins of covid-19.

Note some of the conversations between Fauci and his lieutenants that were obtained after years of FOIA suits. And the fact that some of this associates are discussing the fact that they have deleted emails in violation of the US Freedom of Information Act and they they think "they're ok" as a result of those deletions.

 

 

Like I mentioned previously, this is a very dangerous situation. Criminals are running the show and no one is being held accountable. Why do so many regular people keep supporting the unethical liars and incompetent bureaucrats at the top of US institutions. They have broken the law!!! Is it political? Is it shame? I was embarrassed about believing these people during the beginning of the COVID panic. I got over it. Everyone makes mistakes. No one is going to hold it against you unless you keep supporting liars and criminals.

[Daniel Cooper]

I agree. We are currently in a very bad state here in the US. Politicians routinely flout the law. When caught the political class collectively shrugs it's shoulders, mumbles something incoherent, then moves on. Nothing happens. No accountability.

 

We are to the point where they might has well repeal the Freedom of Information Act. It is so routinely violated without consequence that it might as well not exist. At least that would give some clarity that in fact US citizens do not have any right to know what their government is up to.

 

We have conclusive evidence of official government business being conducted outside of the .gov email system via private email like gmail - which is in and of itself a violation of FIOA, then those emails being deleted which is again an illegal act that violates FOIA.

 

And what happens? Nothing whatsoever. Nada.

 

The US can really no longer claim to be a nation of laws. Sure, the laws might be applied to you or I. But to the political class? Never. Not so long as they tow the establishment line.

 

We have become a substantially lawless country if you are amongst the politically favored.

[albedo]

No claim but feel the question is open, fear and division dangerous and we might never know, going only for the best explanatory theory, the most hard to vary à-la-Deutsch/Popper epistemology. In my area (physics) there are unresolved issues since centuries which did not avoid huge progresses.

 

 

"The origins of the calamitous SARS-CoV-2 pandemic are now the subject of vigorous discussion and debate between two competing hypotheses for how it entered the human population: (i) direct infection from a feral source, likely a bat and possibly with an intermediate mammalian host, and (ii) a lab accident whereby bat isolates infected a researcher, who then passed it to others. Here, we ask whether the tools of science can help resolve the origins question and conclude that while such studies can provide important information, these are unlikely to provide a definitive answer. Currently available data combined with historical precedent from other outbreaks and viewed through the prism of Occam’s razor favor the feral source hypothesis, but science can provide only probabilities, not certainty."

Casadevall A, Weiss SR, Imperiale MJ. Can science help resolve the controversy on the origins of the sars-cov-2 pandemic? mBio. 2021;12(4):e01948-21.
https://journals.asm...8/mbio.01948-21

 

 

"ABSTRACT Science is humanity’s best insurance against threats from nature, but it is a fragile enterprise that must be nourished and protected. The preponderance of scientificscientificscientificevidence indicates a natural origin for SARS-CoV-2. Yet, the theory that SARS-CoV-2 was engineered in and escaped from a lab dominates media attention, even in the absence of strong evidence. We discuss how the resulting anti-science movement puts the research community, scientific research, and pandemic preparedness at risk."

Alwine J, Goodrum F, Banfield B, et al. The harms of promoting the lab leak hypothesis for SARS-CoV-2 origins without evidence. Walsh D, ed. J Virol. Published online August 2024:e01240-24.

https://journals.asm...28/jvi.01240-24

 

 

 

"SARS-CoV-2 is a natural virus that found its way into humans through mundane contact with infected wildlife that went on to cause the most consequential pandemic  for over a century. While it is scholarly to entertain alternative hypotheses, particularly when evidence is scarce, these alternative hypotheses have been implausible for a long time and have only become more-so with increasing scrutiny. Those who eagerly peddle suggestions of laboratory involvement have consistently failed to present credible arguments to support their positions."

COVID-19 origins: plain speaking is overdue

https://www.thelance...0206-4/fulltext

Edited by albedo, 05 August 2024 - 08:41 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Can you point to specific evidence establishing proto-MERS or proto-SARS from prior outbreaks?  I wasn't able to find any.  As far as I can discern, they jumped to humans in a relatively "final form."  Camels are the likely intermediate host for MERS, but I haven't seen any evidence of the claim that MERS evolved "through a transitory stage where its ability to infect the new host is low and then rises as time progresses."  It's challenging to discover antibodies to long-gone "intermediate viruses."  The absence of such observations doesn't mean intermediates didn't occur; it just means we failed to detect them.  Researchers did detect proper COVID antibodies in members of the Hunan wet market, including domestic cats[1].

For an example look at SARS-CoV-1.  From that Wikipedia article:
 
Epidemiological evidence suggested a zoonotic origin of the virus: more than 33% of the first detected cases of SARS in Guangdong corresponded to animal or food handlers.[17] Seroprevalence studies reinforced this zoonotic link (a high proportion of asymptomatic animal handlers at markets in Guangdong Province had antibodies against SARS-CoV).[17]
 
That pandemic displayed two common characteristics of a zoonotic origin - a high percentage of the people in the initial infections were known to have contact with the proposed animal vector, and a high percentage of the people that routinely handled the vector animal were found to have antibodies against the pandemic virus even though most had not know they were infected.
 
This behavior is very common when a virus jumps a species barrier which when it comes to jumping to humans frequently occurs in situations where the origin is some food animal that is farmed. Poultry workers are the first to get the new bird flu. Cattle workers get the new bovine derived virus. Etc. etc. When you go back and start surveying the workers in that industry in the region where the initial outbreak occurs you'll find that a high percentage present with antibodies to the virus even though you are in the early stages of the pandemic and most people in the general population are unexposed and therefore immunologically naive.
 
It's basically common sense if you think about it.
 
As far as the initial stages of a zoonotic virus being less adept at human transmissibility - this is also common sense. The virus in the original host animal isn't normally transmissible between humans. That's why it's a bird flu and not a human flu. It can be transmitted but normally that requires an unusually high level of viral exposure. The mutation that makes it transmissible to humans almost never occurs in the host animal because there is no selection pressure in operation there. It would be pure chance that a random mutation occurred in a bird flu while it's in a bird and then it happened to be transmitted to a human. What normally occurs is that people are repeatedly getting a animal borne virus because of a high level of exposure. One day, there is a mutation in a zoonotic virus that has infected a human - frequently through viral reassortment. This new virus is most frequently still not optimized for human to human transmission but it is now contagious between humans at some level. Selection pressure has to have time to advantage the viral mutations that are most successful at human to human transmission. Eventually a mutation occurs that makes it easily transmissible from human to human and you're off to the races.
 
If you'll recall - very early in the pandemic WHO and Chinese officials made the claim that there was no evidence for human to human transmission. That wasn't true but that claim was made because that's normally what you see in a new zoonotic virus.  If I get some time I may find a source for you but I'd encourage you to look it up yourself. Any general discussion of zoonotic viruses will discuss this.
 
Importantly these markers of a zoonotic virus were never found in SARS-CoV-2. Workers at the wet market were not over represented in the initial cases, and when they were retrospectively surveyed after the start of the pandemic they were not demonstrated to have a higher incidence of antibodies than the general Wuhan population.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

albedo writes, in post #352 :

 

"No claim but feel the question is open..."

 

I find it odd that a person who suggests that the question is open would only cite references which lean toward the same, substantially non-open, conclusion.:

 

Your first reference:

 

"Currently available data combined with historical precedent from other outbreaks and viewed through the prism of Occam’s razor favor the feral source hypothesis..."

 

Your second reference:

 

"The preponderance of scientificscientificscientificevidence (sic) indicates a natural origin for SARS-CoV-2."

 

Your third reference:

 

"SARS-CoV-2 is a natural virus that found its way into humans through mundane contact with infected wildlife...".

 

My emphasis in the above.

 

I would suggest that a person who truly feels that the origin question is open probably would have cited references which he considered to contain the most persuavive arguments on each side of the issue--the best ones that he could find, rather than offer only references that essentially claim the same thing, i.e. natural origin.

 

I would further suggest that epistemological arguments need to take a back seat to the wise injunction (paraphrased) of Lord Kelvin, who you are undoubtedly aware of, in light of your area of study:

 

"To measure is to know".

 

The paraphrase, relevant to this instance, implying that any factual questions related to the origin of SARS-CoV-2, should be addressed by means of scientific examination coupled with logical reasoning, and not by any significant reliance on epistemological arguments.

[albedo]

Thank you @Advocatus Diaboli. It is a good point and I quite expected the well taken criticism. Hopefully moderating it a little, is that I posted in first position the Casadevall et al. review which, while reaching its own conclusions, looks like trying to also provide a balanced view structured in two opposing "evidence" sections. And yes, it might be argued against its epistemological take in the conclusion. Unfortunately I also noticed its published date is 2021 and I could not find something more recent. Do we have a more recent well done review of both theories? I also agree the other two more recent references are rather only educated opinions which I stand with.

 

Wrt epistemology, I disagree: to me Epistemology is a bit like Politics: it is everything! I do not live in the supposedly ethereal ivory tower of Science and disagree with many takes on "The Science" which emerged to the public in particular during the pandemics. Theories are just conjectures striving to generate the best explications in order to progress. And I also agree with Deutsch that Data do not precede Theory. His Beginning of Infinity is good read...but I am off topic here...

Edited by albedo, 06 August 2024 - 09:14 AM.

[albedo]

...Unfortunately I also noticed its published date is 2021 and I could not find something more recent. Do we have a more recent well done review of both theories?...

 

I found one review of 2023 but from the same authors as ref. 1 posted, reaching similar conclusion, so I do not bother to report.

From a review article fall 2022:

"...Most recent papers do not include observational or experimental studies, being discussions and positions on these two main hypotheses. Based on the information here reviewed, there is not yet a definitive and well demonstrated conclusion on the origin of SARS-CoV-2.

Domingo JL. An updated review of the scientific literature on the origin of SARS-CoV-2. Environmental Research. 2022;215:114131.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC9420317/