206 replies to this topic

[sentinel]

Ha I can't believe someone spammed your thread!

Couple of questions and observations: How have you found the Pre/Post amino approach effects your training and results ie are you getting stronger faster or just getting less aches ie DOMS?

Also I use Maca for quite a while and liorrh found it gave me a bit of a lift (as it's supposed to) but the taste was a bit intrusive (I used a table spoon, 5-10g) so i've back-burnered it. Have you kept it up and/or noticed anything from it?

Finally I also added Cocoa to my drinks recently but I try to manage without a blender at work and the damn stuff just doesn't mix in a shaker. OK that wasn't a question, just me moaning

Bottom line - How are the tweeks working out?

[DukeNukem]

>>> Leucine 1.5g (to up BCAA ratio)

Been using this for several years. BCAA's and especially Leucine are greatly underused by those trying to build muscle.

[zoolander]

just been doing a lots of reading about amino acids and muscle protein synthesis (thesis related). I'm taking in quite a bit more protein these days.

It pays to do your homework

I was going to write an article of increasing protein in your diet but I am just too god damn lazy....I mean busy at the moment

[sentinel]

Soooo.. +ve/-ve perceivable effects of changes in protein/aminos intake? And how's the maca treating you?

sentinel

[zoolander]

still haven't had my first dose of maca. It's being delivered. Re. amino acids effects....well all I can say is that I feel like I've put on more size in the last 6 weeks or so than I have in the last 2-3 years. Obviously my diet and training was not optimal. On top of the added protein the high volume training is really shocking my muscles

[sentinel]

Cool!

I'm experimenting with my muscle growth shakes ie instead of buying expensive MRPs combining different protein powders (Hydrolysed Whey, Whey Protein Isolate etc) with combinations of carbs (Malto Dextrose, Activated Barley, ultra-fine scottish oats..). On the amino side I'm just using Taurine and Beta-alanine but will probably give the BCAA route a try as it seems universally recommended as a staple.

With the Maca, as I said above, the taste varies from strong and obtrusive through to quite subtle, depending on source/refining method so don't put off if it seems a bit at first.

Keep it up! I look forward to the Zoolander most muscular shoot in due course [thumb]

[wiserd]

L-Arginine (NOW Foods) 2g (before afternoon meal and before bed)
L-Lysine (NOW Foods) 500mg (Before afternoon meal)

Lysine interferes with arginine absorption.

[Shepard]

L-Arginine (NOW Foods) 2g (before afternoon meal and before bed)
L-Lysine (NOW Foods) 500mg (Before afternoon meal)

Lysine interferes with arginine absorption.

Yeah, but the reason for supplementing will dictate whether that matters or not.

[wiserd]

L-Arginine (NOW Foods) 2g (before afternoon meal and before bed)
L-Lysine (NOW Foods) 500mg (Before afternoon meal)

Lysine interferes with arginine absorption.

Yeah, but the reason for supplementing will dictate whether that matters or not.

I don't follow. What would be a good reason for taking a pure form of both at the same time?

[zoolander]

I don't take this combo anymore. I take arginine with my protein and get enough lysine from my diet

[Shepard]

I don't follow. What would be a good reason for taking a pure form of both at the same time?

Sorry, I didn't see this until now.

It is my understanding that the anti-crosslinking effects of arginine should be preserved in the presence of lysine.

[zoolander]

Obviously, after being diagnosed with severe obstructive sleep apnea, I need to consider the consequences of this condition and do what I can to counter the negatives. Severe obstructive sleep apnea is life threatening if not treated. I've been trying to get use to using CPAP over the last month or so but am not going so well. I'm sure I'll get use to it though. I had my first full night of using CPAP last night actually and I guess that's why I've got the extra energy to post

Anyhow....luckily I have unknowingly countering some of the most serious symptoms of sleep apnea by making unconscious supplement choices. Symptoms include attention deficits, memory problems and impaired concentration. I've been countering these with stimulants and cholinesterase inhibitors. That's a bonus.

Most of the symptoms above, researchers say, seem to be the result of hypoxemia (i.e low oxygen in blood) and sleep fragmentation. It's thought that the hypoxemia disrupts many chemical and cellular processes that rely on oxygen. Sleep apnea has been shown to affect NO release, increase cytokines such as IL-6 and TNF-alpha, increase C-reactive protein, increase homocysteine and so on.

We all know that a lot of these problems can be treated with supplements and nutraceuticals. Obviously I need to do my best to avoid the above situations because if left untreated I'm looking at endothelia dysfunction, increase risk of both cardiovascular disease as well an increased risk of a cerebrovascular event (i.e stroke).

So I'm changing my supplement regime a little. I've order the supplements and will add them into my regime when they arrive. For now I will just mention the supplement and what I am using the supplement for

Cholinergic enhancement:
1. Alpha-GPC = choline donor
2. Huperzine A = cholinesterase inhibitor
3. ALCAR = acetyl donor and antioxidant

Oxidative Stress:
1. Alpha Lipoic acid
2. CoQ10 ? still considering.

C-Reactive Protein:
1. Plant sterols such as Beta-sisterol

Cardiovascular system:
1. Vitamin K (1)
2. Quercetin

Others:
1. Hydergine ? still considering for cerebrovascular

Hopefully I can moderate some of the negatives by using the above mentioned supplements. The first and foremost though is to correct the problem at hand i.e obstructive sleep apnea and hypoxemia. I'm currently treating the obstructive sleep apnea but will not be able to get a good measure on whether I have low blood oxygen saturation until I receive the pulse oximeter that I will be purchasing in a few weeks.

I'll try to keep everyone updated. For now....just letting you know that there may be a few changes to my regime

Edited by zoolander, 10 January 2008 - 04:26 AM.

[FunkOdyssey]

Glad to hear you had a good night's rest with the CPAP, I hope with some fine-tuning it becomes the answer to your sleep apnea problems. Good luck!

[edward]

5g raw maca? expect some morning lethargy (it gives me lethargy due to that alpha2 quercitin thing.. but not everyone is sinesentive to quercitin like me)
maca is LOADED with quercitin

liorrh how much quercetin is "loaded" in raw maca power (not cocentrated, just raw micronized powder) do you have a reference? I've been looking but I cant find any data.

[zoolander]

Added the following:

coQ10 100mg/day
Magnesium Citrate ~500mg/day
Chromium GTF 400mcg/day
Alpha Lipoic acid 300mg/day
Phytosterols (Beta-sitosterols and others) 900mg/day
CDP-choline 250mg/day
Acetyl-L-Carnitine 2g/day
Huperzine A 400mcg/day

Reason for change: enhanced protection of cardiovascular system, cognitive enhancement and protection

[unbreakable]

You combine many supplements that increase acetylcholine-levels (Galantamine, Huperzine, Acetycholine-Precursors...). Do you tolerate this combination without problems? Have there ever been cases of cholinergic syndrome from taking too much nootropics? I'm just asking because I want to add Huperzine to my regimen too, I'm just a litte afraid of excessive stimulation of acetylcholine receptors.

[zoolander]

unbreakable, to be honest, I didn't consider cholinergic syndrome. I will have to keep that in mind. I'm not using galantamine at the moment. I replaced galantamine with huperzine A.

You can separate acetylcholine donors into 2 as well. Acetyl donor and choline donor. I'm essentially taking 1 acetyl donor (acetyl-L-carnitine) and 1 choline donor. Actually 2 choline donors if you count DMAE.

Thank you for the heads up. If I notice any chances in the next few weeks or in the future with my health I will have to consider cholinergic syndrome. Fingers cross they aren't central symptoms :(

[DukeNukem]

>>> coQ10 100mg/day

Are you taking the newer formulation from Japan, ubiquinol?
e.g. http://www.iherb.com...c...d=7883&at=0

Articles I've read suggest this is far more bio-potent (4-8 times higher serum levels) than the oxidized form, ubiquinone.

I take 250mg of ubiquinol daily now, 100mg upon waking, 50mg midday, and 100mg before bed. There seems to be meaningful benefits at higher doses. The latest LEF magazine has an article about this.

[unbreakable]

@zoolander: As you have replaced the Galantamine with Huperzine A, I'm pretty sure you are on the safe side and won't have negative cns symptoms. But some people take Galantamine + Huperzine A + Acetycholine-Precursors, and I think this is dangerous.

Herbal supplements that elevate acetylcholine concentrations in the brain (huperzine A, bacopa monniera, phosphatidylserine, acetyl-L carnitine, DMAE-dimethylamino ethanol) have the potential to cause cholinergic syndrome, if taken concurrently with drugs used to treat Alzheimer's disease and dementia, which slow the break down of acetylcholine (acetylcholinesterase inhibitors - donepezil, tacrine). The signs and symptoms of cholinergic syndrome include vomiting, excess saliva and tear production, increased sweating and bradycardia.

[basho]

...
Huperzine A 400mcg/day

Is 400mcg/day a megadose?

I thought there were issues with chronic Huperzine A intake. For example, LEF cautions against more than 200 mcg in any one week, and states:

Since Huperzine A inhibits the enzyme acetylcholinesterase, it should not be used on a chronic basis. The reason for this is that some acetylcholinesterase is needed to suppress excessive amounts of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine from accumulating in the body. While most people over age 30 need more acetylcholine, too much can cause unpleasant side effects. Most healthy people safely boost acetylcholine levels by taking precursors such as choline and phosphatidylcholine along with pantothenic acid.

[zoolander]

Thanks for the heads up Duke. I usually go with jarrow but on this occasion I went with healthy origins because it was a cheaper product. It's still sourced from Japan but it's not the reduced form.

Do you have any references to those articles Duke?

Basho I considering cutting the Huperzine A in half. You are right in that there were some discussions related to huperzine A toxicity.

[zoolander]

Just a few changes. Did a little tweaking (eg. swapped to a more bioavailable/stable form)

Changed the following:
-coQ10 replaced with Ubiquinol (CoQH) 100mg/day
-Alpha Lipoic acid replaced with Na-R Alpha Lipoic Acid 300mg/day
-Huperzine A 400mcg/day dose halves to 200mcg/day
-Norwegian Salmon Oil (Carlson) 1000mg to double the amount using Fish Oil (Natural Factors, RxOmega-3 Factors Pharmaceutical Grade Omega 3 Oils) 2000mg
-Aged Garlic (Kyolic Immune formula 103) 440mg to Treble amount using Aged Garlic (Kyolic Cardiovascular formula 100) 1200mg

[balance]

I would stay on the safe side and not take huperzine A daily. Maybe keep your 400mcg dose but just 2 days in the week or such.

[zoolander]

I would stay on the safe side and not take huperzine A daily. Maybe keep your 400mcg dose but just 2 days in the week or such.

reasoning? references?

[zoolander]

made some changes.
-updated weight and body fat
-dropped bacopa from regime. Was capping Bacopa myself but couldn't be fussed with the capping at the moment
-dropped blueberry extract and replaced with 100g frozen blueberries with morning meal
-dropped seeds and nuts from morning meal. I now use a muesli with my morning meal that contains these seeds and nuts
-dropped lecithin. Not really needed now since I am using CDP-choline
-included 1/2 Muesli (see regime for ingredients)
-minimized skin care regime. Now I basically cleanse and moisturise (+ sunscreen) in morning and cleanse and use retin-A in evening
-added exercise regime for reference

[Mind]

Sounds like you implemented a couple changes in the interest of saving time. True?

I don't take many supps, but I find that my balanced diet with several small meals per day takes a lot of time to prepare. I wish I was wealthy enough to have someone prepare the meals/snacks for me.

[kenj]

Sounds like you implemented a couple changes in the interest of saving time. True?

I don't take many supps, but I find that my balanced diet with several small meals per day takes a lot of time to prepare. I wish I was wealthy enough to have someone prepare the meals/snacks for me.

Someone goes further:

"Kurzweil does not believe in half measures. He takes 180 to 210 vitamin and mineral supplements a day, so many that he doesn't have time to organize them all himself. So he's hired a pill wrangler, who takes them out of their bottles and sorts them into daily doses, which he carries everywhere in plastic bags."

Edited by kenj, 12 April 2008 - 01:38 PM.

[zoolander]

made some changes.
-updated weight and body fat
-dropped bacopa from regime. Was capping Bacopa myself but couldn't be fussed with the capping at the moment
-dropped blueberry extract and replaced with 100g frozen blueberries with morning meal
-dropped seeds and nuts from morning meal. I now use a muesli with my morning meal that contains these seeds and nuts
-dropped lecithin. Not really needed now since I am using CDP-choline
-included 1/2 Muesli (see regime for ingredients)
-minimized skin care regime. Now I basically cleanse and moisturise (+ sunscreen) in morning and cleanse and use retin-A in evening
-added exercise regime for reference

Sounds like you implemented a couple changes in the interest of saving time. True?

Not really. Some of it was overkill.

1. I'd been thinking about dropping bacopa for a while because the research backing it's use is not as strong as some of my other choices
2. Decided to go with blueberries instead of an extract because it added flavour to a newly created breakfast
3. Skincare regime was a little overboard for me
4. Added extra exercise because for the first time in a while I have been able to set up a constant routine. I no longer do shift work

[Shepard]

How is the GVT treating you after this time? Plan on rotating off to something else anytime soon?

[zoolander]

I did the full 6 week + 3 week program and put on some good muscle. GVT obviously made some differences because friends were asking if I'd been training. One asked if I was on the gear. LOL. Unfortunately I had to deal with a break up and was required to move house which took up quite a bit of my time. Haven't training seriously for a few months.

I'm going to do the 6 + 3 week GVT again and then try something else after that.

Any recommendations on what I should try next Shepard?

Edited by zoolander, 12 April 2008 - 11:49 PM.