206 replies to this topic

[zoolander]

Finally added resveratrol into routine

[zoolander]

added extra Ginkgo and bacopa into afternoon before meal

Ginkgo Biloba 150mg
Bacopa Monniera 450mg

[DukeNukem]

Zoo,

The label of that Nature's Way revtrol formula looks fishy. On the bottle's front it says 37.5mg revtrol. One the back label, 2 caps give 75mg revtrol from the knotweed alone. I can only assume that the front is therefore referring to one capsule (half of 75mg). However, that would mean that the red wine extract adds no revtrol.

Do you have a better explanation of what's going on?

[zoolander]

you are correct in that one capsule contains 37.5mg of resveratrol from Japanese Knotweed, which is a cheaper and highly concentrated with resveratrol.

Resveratrol is also found in red wine which contains just over 600mcg of resveratrol/glass, so I am not sure why they have not mentioned an amount that may come from the red wine extract or red wine powder. I'm guessing that they just didn't measure the amounts in either of these and hence did not mention concentration. This is not uncommon. Resveratrol is also found in grape skins and alot of supplement companies do not give a resveratrol amount that may come from the grape skin. N.S.I is one company that comes to mind.

Nature's way is a fairly reputable company. Their supplements are often used in research environments.

So in short duke, I don't really have a solid explanation for you matey. I have heard that resveratrol is registered by the FDA as an investigational drug but do not know what sort of restrictions would be placed on commercially available resveratrol as a result.

??

Edited by zoolander, 29 December 2006 - 06:50 PM.

[brainengineer]

Had some blood work done recently. All values fall within optimal range however I'm going to try and tweak some

...

Serum lipid were good however I would like to increase HDL, lower LDL and lower the Chol/HDL ratio. So I have added

Flush-free Niacin (NOW Foods) 640mg
Cholestatin (plant sterol complex, NOW Foods) 800mg

Cholestatin/plant sterols have also been shown to decrease C-reactive Protein levels

Im curious about the no-flush niacin. I read some of the articles on niacin improving hdl/ldl ratios and I thought the no-flush niacin would be a great addition to my supplement. My father got on me about why the no-flush, since that is *not* what Dr are recommending and if it truly was better and didnt cause the flushing everyone would be recommending that rather than standard nicotinic acid niacin.

I did some research and wasnt able to find any recent studies on inisitol hexacianate vs nicotinic acid. I only found a few cites on pub med from about 20 years ago saying no-flush was better. On the flip side, I did find some folks on the web specifically saying to only use nicotinic acid though.

You seem to have far more research expertise so I figured I would ask your thoughts.

--
BrainEngineer

[deftndumb1]

Zoolander, Hi.

Aren't you worried that your EGCg is deactivating Sirt1 more than resveratrol is activating it? Of course, the antioxidant effects of both are worth it in-and-of themselves, and there's still controversy anyway over whether resveratrol's benefits derive from Sirt1 activity. But if Sirt is involved, and we want it activated, aren't the green tea supplements blowing the whole deal?


QUOTE
SIRT1 stimulation by polyphenols is affected by their stability and metabolism.

Vincent C J de Boer, Marcus C de Goffau, Ilja C W Arts, Peter C H Hollman, Jaap Keijer
Silent information regulator two ortholog 1 (SIRT1) is the human ortholog of the yeast sir2 protein; one of the most important regulators of lifespan extension by caloric restriction in several organisms. Dietary polyphenols, abundant in vegetables, fruits, cereals, wine and tea, were reported to stimulate the deacetylase activity of recombinant SIRT1 protein and could therefore be potential regulators of aging associated processes. However, inconsistent data between effects of polyphenols on the recombinant SIRT1 and on in vivo SIRT1, led us to investigate the influence of (1) stability of polyphenols under experimental conditions and (2) metabolism of polyphenols in human HT29 cells, on stimulation of SIRT1. With an improved SIRT1 deacetylation assay we found three new polyphenolic stimulators. Epigallocatechin galate (EGCg, 1.76-fold), epicatechin galate (ECg, 1.85-fold) and myricetin (3.19-fold) stimulated SIRT1 under stabilizing conditions, whereas without stabilization, these polyphenols strongly inhibited SIRT1, probably due to H(2)O(2) formation. Using metabolically active HT29 cells we were able to show that quercetin (a stimulator of recombinant SIRT1) could not stimulate intracellular SIRT1. The major quercetin metabolite in humans, quercetin 3-O-glucuronide, slightly inhibited the recombinant SIRT1 activity which explains the lack of stimulatory action of quercetin in HT29 cells. This study shows that the stimulation of SIRT1 is strongly affected by polyphenol stability and metabolism, therefore extrapolation of in vitro SIRT1 stimulation results to physiological effects should be done with caution.
[COLOR=orange]

[Shepard]

Im curious about the no-flush niacin.  I read some of the articles on niacin improving hdl/ldl ratios and I thought the no-flush niacin would be a great addition to my supplement.  My father got on me about why the no-flush, since that is *not* what Dr are recommending and if it truly was better and didnt cause the flushing everyone would be recommending that rather than standard nicotinic acid niacin.

I did some research and wasnt able to find any recent studies on inisitol hexacianate vs nicotinic acid.  I only found a few cites on pub med from about 20 years ago saying no-flush was better.  On the flip side, I did find some folks on the web specifically saying to only use nicotinic acid though. 

As far as I know, inositol hexanicotinate is the only flush-free form of niacin that has any real effect on lipid levels. It's also one of the safer versions. It has been a while since I looked into this, though.

[scottl]

inositol hexanicotinate does not work...at least in my limited experience and in this abstract:

------------------------------------------------------------
Arch Sci Med (Torino). 1977 Oct-Dec;134(4):359-94.
[Comparative studies of the response of normolipemic and dyslipemic aged subjects to 2 forms of delayed-action nicotinic acid polyesters. Pentaerythrotol tetranicotinate and inositol hexanicotinate. Results of a controlled cross-over trial][Article in Italian]
Ziliotto GR, Lamberti G, Wagner A, Cima L, Genco G.
A cross-over trial was run to compare the effects of two delayed-action nicotinic acid polyesters (pentaerythritol-tetranticotinate, PETN, and inositol-hexanicotinate, MIEN) in 59 aged normo- and dyslipaemic subjects. PETN tended to normalise the lipid picture in much the same way as nicotin acid, without a drastic effect on circulating lipids and lipoproteins. MIEN, on the other hand, had only a slight effect on total blood lipids, and appeared to be ineffective or negative with respect to the other lipid parameters. PETN proved capable of releasing active concentrations of nicotinic acid in vivo for a period of time that was sufficient to correct hyperlipaemia in age subjects. The side-effects were slight, infrequent and quickly reversible.

PMID: 345998
-------------------------------------------------------

THis thread discusses the different forms of niacin:

http://groups.google...bdb03c1fe430417

[Shepard]

I found which study I was thinking of, but I don't have access to it. It's from the old International Record of Medicine.

[brainengineer]

The only studies I was able to find on no-flush niacin were

* A.M.A. El-Enein et al., The Role of Nicotinic Acid and Inositol Hexaniacinate as Anticholesterolemic and Antilipemic Agents. Nutr Rep Intl 28. 1983;899-911.
* Welsh AL, Eade M. Inositol hexanicotinate for improved nicotinic acid theray. Int Record Med. 1961:174:9-15.


Both of these are widely referenced when folks are talking about Inositol Hexaniacinate, but they seem really old, all of the newer research on dyslipidemia utilize nicotinic acid.

Here is the reference that I had indicating Inositol Hexaniacianate was not good. http://www.aafp.org/...01/tips/14.html

Sigh, and I have like 4 bottles of no-flush niacin... ;-(

--
BrainEngineer

Edited by brainengineer, 05 January 2007 - 03:33 AM.

[zoolander]

I know that the studies re. IHN are fairly old. I haven't seen any of late although I have heard a lot of people talking about the cholesterol lowering benefits if no-flush niacin. I don't usually go on word of mouth alone but though, in this case, that niacin is cheap and I have a direct measure of my cholesterol before supplementation so I decided to give it a go. However, I've changed a few things since then so it's not going to be very controlled

[Brainbox]

Zoo, what did change your mind to begin using resveratrol? I'm still worried about human bioavailability as you did before if I recall correctly.

[zoolander]

I referenced a paper recently published in Nature reviews: Drug Discovery

http://www.imminst.o...=178&t=11610&s=

Here is a very informative snip. For references, tables and figures please see full paper.

Pharmacokinetics

It is fair to say that the literature on resveratrol is, in many cases, contradictory and confusing. The wide range of concentrations and doses used to achieve the various effects reported for resveratrol (approx 32 nM–100 muM in vitro and approx 100 ng–1,500 mg per kg (body weight) in animals) raises many questions about the concentrations that are achieved or achievable in vivo. Furthermore, resveratrol has a short initial half-life (approx 8–14 min for the primary molecule) and is metabolized extensively in the body. As such, calculating the effective in vivo concentration of resveratrol or designing new studies based on the current literature can be daunting.

In 2004, Walle and colleagues showed that the bulk of an intravenous dose of resveratrol is converted to sulphate conjugates within approx 30 min in humans. A detailed analysis of plasma metabolites after oral dosing was not possible; however, both sulphate and glucuronide conjugates were detected. Five distinct metabolites were present in the urine — resveratrol monosulphate, two isomeric forms of resveratrol monoglucuronide, dihydroresveratrol monosulphate and dihydroresveratrol monoglucuronide (Fig. 1). Total sulphate conjugates accounted for approx 37% of the metabolites in the urine and total glucuronide conjugates approx 19%, with the remainder being made up largely by unknown metabolites and only trace amounts of free resveratrol. In addition, Walleet al. found that the serum half-life of total resveratrol metabolites was approx 9.2 hours, indicating that exposure to modified forms is much higher than that for unchanged resveratrol.

Although modifications such as glucuronidation and sulphation typically reduce the cell permeability of drugs and aid in their excretion, the undeniable in vivo efficacy of resveratrol, despite its low bioavailability, has led to speculation that its metabolites could retain some activity. In support of this, several metabolites retain the ability to activate SIRT1 and inhibit cyclooxygenase in vitro (A. Mesecar, personal communication). However, resveratrol-3-sulphate fails to inhibit CYPs  and there is currently no evidence that any metabolite is able to cross the plasma membrane. Research into the actions of metabolites has been hampered by the lack of commercial sources, but should proceed more readily now that synthetic routes to these molecules have been established by several groups.

The concentrations of trans-resveratrol in red wine vary widely (Table 1), but a reasonable (if optimistic) estimate is about 5 mg l-1. Assuming a consistent daily intake of 375 ml, or about two glasses of wine, a person weighing 70 kg would receive a dose of approx 27 mug per kg (body weight) each day. Inclusion of cis-resveratrol and polydatin (resveratrol beta-glucoside, also known as piceid), depending on the wine, might double this figure. At higher doses, the detrimental effects of alcohol are likely to mask any health benefits. For example, the beneficial effect of alcohol consumption on Alzheimer's disease is maximal at 1–6 drinks per week and consuming more than four drinks per day nullifies the beneficial effect of alcohol on the risk of myocardial infarction.

One finding that has often been overlooked is that quercetin, which is also present in red wine, is a picomolar inhibitor of resveratrol sulphation in both the liver and duodenum, indicating that the profiles of metabolites obtained after consumption of either red wine or purified resveratrol could be different. Resveratrol, its 3-glucuronide and its 4'-glucuronide were all detected sporadically in the plasma of human participants after ingestion of red wine at concentrations up to 26 nM, 190 nM and 2.2 muM, respectively. Data on the peak serum concentrations of unchanged resveratrol, as well as metabolites, are summarized in Tables 2,3.

The maximum tolerated dose of resveratrol has not been thoroughly determined, but 300 mg per kg (body weight) showed no detrimental effects in rats and doses up to 100 mg per kg (body weight) have been used routinely in studies on rodents (S1). Although these estimates are subject to change as new data become available, we would currently predict peak serum concentrations of approx 2.4 nM unmodified resveratrol and approx 180 nM total resveratrol from a dose equivalent to two glasses of red wine, and approx 9 muM authentic resveratrol and approx 680 muM total resveratrol from a high, but pharmacologically relevant, dose (based on rodent data) of resveratrol of 100 mg per kg (body weight). Insufficient data exist to predict peak concentrations in most tissues, but a approx 30-fold enrichment of resveratrol over serum concentrations has been observed in intestinal mucosa, as has significant accumulation of resveratrol in the bile, stomach, liver and kidneys.

Given that in vivo concentrations of individual metabolites can be more than ten times higher than those of the native compound, in the future, there will clearly need to be an emphasis on determining whether the metabolites represent inactivated forms of the drug, act as a pool from which free resveratrol can be released in various tissues or are themselves active in promoting many of the health benefits attributed to resveratrol.

It is also worth considering the potential interactions of resveratrol with other constituents of the diet. Resveratrol has been shown to synergize with both quercetin and ellagic acid in the induction of apoptosis in human leukaemia cells, with ethanol in the inhibition of iNOS expression, with vitamin E in the prevention of lipid peroxidation, with catechin in the protection of PC12 cells from beta-amyloid toxicity, and with nucleoside analogues in the inhibition of HIV1 replication in cultured T lymphocytes. These effects could help to explain how a relatively low dose of resveratrol obtained from red wine or other dietary sources could produce a measurable health benefit.

I have highlighted points that made me consider adding resveratrol into my supplement regime. My concerns about including resveratrol are essentially related to it's bioavailability. Note the points about quercetin. This may help answer duke's previous question about why Nature's way formulations would contain red wine extract as well. I guess the reasoning behind this is mentioned in the snippet above that mentions how quercetin and other components of the diet may work synergistically with resveratrol to both increase it's bioavailability as well work together with resveratrol to produce "measurable health benefit". So, it appears that whilst resveratrol itself is poorly absorbed other factors may come into play that result in, again, "measurable health benefit"

anyhooo, I hope that answers your question

[health_nutty]

Looks good Zoo.

If you are looking for suggestions here are a few:

1) Pomegranate extract
2) Blueberry extract
3) Ginger extract
4) Turmeric extract

I would also switch the magnesium oxide for magnesium malate imho.

If you are looking for things to cut out:
1) Some of the single aminos (should get plenty of most aminos from whey or other protein). (I understand creatine and alcar, but do you really need the rest?)
2) Silicon?
3) I'll stop here unless you really want more suggestions.

[zoolander]

Health Nutty. Thank you for the suggestions.

If you are looking for suggestions here are a few:

1) Pomegranate extract
2) Blueberry extract
3) Ginger extract
4) Turmeric extract

I eat most of the above in their whole form. I'm still considering curcumin/tumeric as an addition to my regime.

If you are looking for things to cut out:
1) Some of the single aminos (should get plenty of most aminos from whey or other protein). (I understand creatine and alcar, but do you really need the rest?)
2) Silicon?

Please have a look at the medical research regarding the above mentioned compounds that you believe that I should cut out. The isolated amino acids are an essential part of my regime and I would not consider cutting them out.

[health_nutty]

I'll have to look into it again. Keep in mind I wasn't saying they had no benefit, it's always a matter of opportunity cost. You always seem to be up on the latest research.

[health_nutty]

One other thing you might want to try since you said you were trying to save money (who isn't): you can buy uncapped powder and add it to a drink. A lot of the stuff you buy isn't bad mixed in water. Adding a just bit of juice (I like pomegranate blueberry) improves things a bit.

1) Lysine is nearly tasteless
2) rhodiola doesn't taste bad (you mentioned it was hard to cap)
3) ALCAR has adds a nice sour taste.
4) Green tea extract is nice tasting.
5) Vitamin C will actually improve the concoction.

Let me know if you want more suggestions. Btw, that's a nice picture of yourself on your profile, was it professionally done?

[FunkOdyssey]

Oh no you didn't just criticize Zoolander's regimen and then post a commercial advertisement in the middle of his thread. I'll leave that alone until he gets a chance to see it...

[spectate]

[jamfropsi]

Chlorophyllin (NOW Foods) 200 mg
Probiotic (Theralac) 1 cap 2 x per week

Have you ever considered Now Foods: Probiotic defense ?


p.s. it's also available in caps...

[zoolander]

There are so many choices out there. NOW Foods are a great quality supplement company and I get a lot of my supps from them. However, looking a the alternative option that you provided I would rather stick with what I have. I am not to fond of proprietary blends as I like to know that exact amount so I can tailor specific dosages.

I am going to stick with the Chlorophyllin from NOW but will most likely go with Jarrow Dophillus for my next probiotic.

Thank you for the suggestions though

[hst1]

Zoolander,

Are you still using the probiotics twice a week?

I'm thinking about starting probiotics and like the idea of only 2 or 3 times a week.

Is it still as benefical at those dosages... did you notice any differnce? immunity? skin? etc

[health_nutty]

Zoo, how did you decide on your bacopa dosage? All the recommendations I've seen are 100-400mg per day.

[zoolander]

The perfect shake?? Hmmm.......I use to have shakes a while back but have a whole breakfast now.

Question: are we talking about the perfect protein shake or just the perfect shake?

I'll suggest a protein shake. I wouldn't call it perfect though. I'm factoring in flavour

1 cup of frozen blueberries (or high antioxidant mix frozen berries)
1/2 - 1 chopped frozen/fresh banana
300-400 ml distilled water
1 large scoop Undenatured Cysteine rich whey proetin isolate (Jarrow)
1 Tablespoon of Hemp oil
1 teaspoon of dark (80%+ minimum) chocolate powder (Cocoa)
1 teaspoon xylipure (to taste)
1 Tablespoon of lecithin

I consider a shake a whole food and hence it's seperate to my supplement regime. It's more a part of my superfood routine

[zoolander]

I've made some changes to the routine. will report back in new few days with justifacation

[zoolander]

the Hemp oil thickens the shake up and slows absorption because it's a fat

[zoolander]

I do have a set of meals that I would consider my super meals. However at the moment I'm far from the perfectionist you play me as. I haven't got any time to cook anymore. Well at least for the 6 months I haven't.

Starting a Super Food recipe thread is something I have in mind. Once again, I need to find the time. A super Food Recipe thread would only be complete if you could do a nutritional analysis on the recipe and provide the stats.

[woly]

may i ask how come you dont have any lipoic acid? everyone seems to swear by it.

[zoolander]

If I did take lipoic acid I would take the sustained release SR+ from AOR but unfortunately it's out of my budget range at the moment.

perhaps next year i will throw it in the mix with a little ALCAR

[woly]

have you noticed much change in your skin since taking biosil?

[dannov]

Geez man, you're light! :0) Good regime by and large, though the NAC is, of course, questionable as is the efficacy of such a small does of Resveratrol due to bioavailability issues. Melatonin also ought to be taken right as you're about to turn the lights off from what I've heard from a friend of mine who was involved in a study decades ago with a doctor that, since the age of 30 (he's in his 60s now), has been supplementing with Melatonin as a lisenge (think that's the word, where you put it under your tongue) right before turning the lights off and going to bed daily. From what Jaime (my friend) told me, he looks the same as he did at age 30, barely aged at all.