98 replies to this topic

[patch]

[quote]I am not an expert on EEGs, but I do know enough to interpret the results that they reported. Intrabrain communication, in this case, means synchronization of electrical signals, activity, of the brain. When they report dimensional "complexity", minimal/low complexity means high correlation/synchronization, increased communication. Or, as they stated it, "The decreased EEG complexity is interpreted as increased cooperativity of brain functional processes." Lower dimensional complexity has been shown, for example, to be best for divergent thinking. This may account for people reporting increased creativity while on piracetam. One more thing on the EEG studies, when piracetam is administered they see decrease of slow frequencies, augmentation and acceleration of alpha-activity and increase of beta-activity. This gives the "awake" feeling people say they get when taking piracetam. Alpha and beta frequencies are known for being an alert, focused, concentrative state of mind, even a racing mind. The slower frequencies are known for drowsiness and deep sleep.
QUOTE]

For EEG complexity and divergent thinking, I assume you're referring to this study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....4&dopt=Abstract

Subjects with higher scores had lower EEG complexity. Based on this, can you conclude that lowering EEG complexity will improve scores?
Engines with more horsepower have more vibration. If replacing a part increases vibration, does that mean it increases horsepower?
Maybe smart/creative people have naturally low EEG complexity. Or maybe EEG complexity is reduced as a result of subjects thinking hard (thus harder thinkers have lower complexity). In either case, artificially lowering EEG complexity with drugs will do nothing.
It is easy to read studies and draw conclusions. The hard part is in making sure the conclusion is based on reliable assumptions. Scientists draw very limited conclusions because they know enough to know that there is an awful lot that they don't know. People who don't know this make powerful conclusions. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread (just a saying, not calling anyone a fool ).
Your analysis could well be correct cnorwood19, but we just don't know. This is an extremely complex topic. The best scientists in the world don't fully understand this stuff, so what hope do us amateurs have? This is why I think we need to look at top-down studies (i.e. studies of subjects' performance on tests) rather than bottom-up studies, which deal with some of the most complex issues in the universe.

[doug123]

I've read all the pro and con arguments regarding piracetam.

If you have, please back it up by summarizing the main arguments.

[Shepard]

Let's see:

Xanadu: Piracetam good.
Adam: Piracetam bad.

[doug123]

[quote name='patch']For EEG complexity and divergent thinking, I assume you're referring to this study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....4&dopt=Abstract

Subjects with higher scores had lower EEG complexity.  Based on this, can you conclude that lowering EEG complexity will improve scores?
Engines with more horsepower have more vibration.  If replacing a part increases vibration, does that mean it increases horsepower?
Maybe smart/creative people have naturally low EEG complexity.  Or maybe EEG complexity is reduced as a result of subjects thinking hard (thus harder thinkers have lower complexity).  In either case, artificially lowering EEG complexity with drugs will do nothing.
It is easy to read studies and draw conclusions.  The hard part is in making sure the conclusion is based on reliable assumptions.  Scientists draw very limited conclusions because they know enough to know that there is an awful lot that they don't know.  People who don't know this make powerful conclusions.  Fools rush in where angels fear to tread (just a saying, not calling anyone a fool    ).
Your analysis could well be correct cnorwood19, but we just don't know.  This is an extremely complex topic.  The best scientists in the world don't fully understand this stuff, so what hope do us amateurs have?  This is why I think we need to look at top-down studies (i.e. studies of subjects' performance on tests) rather than bottom-up studies, which deal with some of the most complex issues in the universe.[/quote]

http://www.webmd.com...e/90/100759.htm

The real issue for any reader should be whether they choose to use the scientific method to determine whether to take a drug or supplement.

There is no evidence Piracetam improves cognition in healthy subjects, first off. Second, there is conflicting data it works in elderly and demented subjects. Third, we have data from well established scientists that demonstrate real results for other compounds. Individuals are free to take compounds even if there is no evidence to support their purported effects.

A few modern tests we choose to use to measure cognition are tests of digit span, visual pattern recognition memory, spatial planning and stop-signal reaction time.

Thanks snyp40a1 for this link:

[quote name='http://www.webmd.com/content/article/90/100759.htm']Reviewed By Brunilda  Nazario, MD

What Is Intelligence?


The question remains, also, whether drugs that improve memory or concentration can really be called smart drugs. The idea that a "smart pill" might come to exist took root with "nootropic" drugs, such as Piracetam and Hydergine, which were studied for decades as potential cognitive enhancers and treatments for Alzheimer's.


"These compounds were supposed to have some effect on global brain function, very similar to what people believe is the case for ginkgo biloba," Unterbeck says.


They still have a cult following, but the scientific evidence for their effectiveness is "very anecdotal and poorly documented," he says.


"I certainly don't think that there will be a smart pill," Howard Gardner, PhD, Hobbs Professor of Cognition and Education at Harvard University and a co-author on the Nature Reviews article, tells WebMD in an email.


Gardner is famous for his theory that the human mind has not one, but many distinct intelligences that work together to make up what we broadly call intelligence. "Any pill will and should have much more targeted effects," he says.


Nevertheless, a drug that improved your memory could be said to have made you smarter. We tend to view rote memory, the ability to memorize facts and repeat them, as a dumber kind of intelligence than creativity, strategy, or interpersonal skills. "But it is also true that certain abilities that we view as intelligence turn out to be in fact a very good memory being put to work," Farah says.


Pills cannot impart wisdom or make everyone capable of brilliant leaps of imagination, but they may tune up the machinery and give you more raw material to work with.


Published July 13, 2004.[/quote]

[emerson]

This forum is bad enough, there is no reason to clutter it with more junk.

Out of curiosity, what do you find so bad about it?

[Shepard]

Out of curiosity, what do you find so bad about it?

It's not about the content of the forum, it's just something that happens when a place reaches a certain size. The nootropics board is the most popular area, and has quite a few posters that are only interested in this area. There isn't anything wrong with that, but we consistently get posts asking the exact same question(s) and people who don't search the board. I think the very nature of the nootropic arena is partly to blame for this, but there is an unfocused feeling to all of it lately.

[Athanasios]

Subjects with higher scores had lower EEG complexity. Based on this, can you conclude that lowering EEG complexity will improve scores?

I used more than one EEG study to reach the conclusion I had. One of the studies asked a similar question that you had above, "if the complexity reflects a personal trait rather than proccessing underlying divergent thought". They tested relaxation and other tasks in these people, and compared it to the eeg of when they did a taks high in divergent thought. They showed that the complexity difference was in fact do to the processing of divergent thought, and not a trait of the person. They also found that beta waves were stronger in those that had higher scores. If you want to see what having high beta waves is like, try bwgen.com . Most there that use beta waves, use it for studying. In this rat study, they showed that piracetam boosting higher frequency brainwaves is situational: 6472050

One thing that I found very interesting was that almost every study had a U shape dose dependant curve when showing efficacy. The EEG studies also had the same curve with the measurement in complexity.

So in healthy individuals it has been shown that piracetam improves microcirculation, intrabrain communication (lessens dimensional complexity of a eeg which correlates with creative thinking), improvements in patients with dyslexia (The National Institutes for Health estimate as many as 15-20% of the U.S. population may have dyslexia), neuroprotective properties (on aging and oxidative stress), and the regulation to normality of multiple brain functions.

they may tune up the machinery and give you more raw material to work with

Is exactly what I think piracetam has been shown to due. It helps correct many cognitive deficiencies, including that from aging and dyslexia which is no drop in the bucket. It also improves cerebral blood flow. These effects that are apparent most when function is impaired are there in healthy subjects but less apparent.

The evidence is only correlative and anecdotal. This is for a drug/supplement that is thought to have effect on global brain function, but the mechanism of the drug is still not understood. Scientist do not have a good grasp on global brain functions to this degree, so I dont see how it can be anything but correlative and anecdotal given the above. This does not mean there is no efficacy. How strong the correlation and anecdotal evidence is should be taken into serious consideration. It has been shown to be very safe, so it seems strange that one would discount the information available.

[xanadu]

Creativity is a subjective thing. You can't really measure it or weigh it in any replicable or universaly accepted manner. Does that mean there is no such thing as creativity? Of course not, it just shows that the type of scientific research that is popular today has many flaws in it. You could make the argument that Picasso or any artist is no different than an ordinary person. An ordinary person can create just as many paintings as Picasso could, perhaps more. By counting works created and ignoring intangibles like beauty and meaning, you would come to the "scientific" conclusion that Picasso was no more an artist than the average man in the street. That's the sort of thinking I'm seeing in this thread.

If we can't scientificly prove there is any difference between a great artist and an ordinary person, how are we going to prove subtle differences such as you might get from a substance like piracetam? The ham handed "scientists" who wouldn't know art or beauty if it bit them on the rear will likewise not recognise subtle improvements brought about by a drug like that. If you are going to dismiss all subjective reports as anecdotes and sneer at anything that can't easily be quantified, you might as well turn your energies to some other area where you can be more constructive.

The studies that cnorwood19 and myself have presented showed many benefits from piracetam that can be measured and quantified. The benefits in the elderly and demented are indisputable. However, any one individual might not benefit from it at all. That does not take away from the fact it does a lot of good for many people. Young healthy people seem to get the least benefit from it but many in that catagory have reported improvements in cognition from using it. If only 1 person in 10 benefited but there were no bad side effects, would it be a good drug to use? I say yes because if you use it long enough to give it a fair test and it just does nothing for you, you can always quit it and not have lost anything except the small cost of the drug itself. I suspect that many people who got nothing from it expected a fast response and gave up too soon. It's not like an aspirin that does it's job withing 30 minutes or so. It takes sometimes months to be sure what it's doing. I don't think an attack dose is needed but perhaps for some people it's good to do it that way. I say try it for a couple months and if you don't think it's doing anything, go off it and see if you see any difference in the next month or two.

[doug123]

I think the nootropics forum is more focused than ever before. I am not sure what you consider focused, because I have not seen you contribute anything in the nootropics forum, shepard. In fact, you have taken an antagonistic role in this topic at times, which is, in my opinion, counterproductive.

As soon as the general consensus was formed that certain individuals can't seem to think critically, I have recently ceased reading these individuals posts (now I just scroll through their comments -- which is unfortunate considering these individuals might be taken seriously if they could act and think maturely).

Some valuable contributors (as far as the discussions and their ability to think scientifically and not resort to ad hominem) to this forum are: emerson, snyp40a1, patch, brizzadizza, opales and a few others.

[Shepard]

Okay.

[doug123]

Shep, dude; we're friends...let's keep it that way. I know your intent was to stop the back and forth and that you contribute a lot to other more scientific fora...but you have to agree that a facts a fact...from Nome to Rome, boy...[thumb]

Some of my favorite Neil Peart lyrics:

Jack -- relax.
Get busy with the facts.
No zodiacs or almanacs,
No maniacs in polyester slacks.
Just the facts.
Gonna kick some gluteus max.
Its a parallax -- you dig?
You move around
The small gets big. its a rig.
Its action -- reaction --
Random interaction.
So whos afraid
Of a little abstraction?
Cant get no satisfaction
From the facts?
You better run, homeboy --
A facts a fact
From nome to rome, boy

[xanadu]

I thought this was interesting about piracetam use on dyslexic children. Since all of us may be dyslexic so some small degree, it's something many people might benefit from. It also shows it works on the young as well as the old.

Piracetam In Dyslexia

J Clin Psychopharmacol 1987 Aug;7(4):230-7
Piracetam and dyslexia: effects on reading tests.

Wilsher CR, Bennett D, Chase CH, Conners CK, DiIanni M, Feagans L, Hanvik LJ, Helfgott E, Koplewicz H, Overby P, et al.

Previous research has suggested that dyslexics treated with piracetam have shown improvements in reading skills, verbal memory and verbal conceptualizing ability, feature analysis, and processing of letter-like stimuli. Two hundred twenty-five dyslexic children between the ages of 7 years 6 months and 12 years 11 months whose reading skills were significantly below their intellectual capacity were enrolled in a multicenter, 36-week, double-blind, placebo-controlled study. Children of below average intelligence, with abnormal findings on audiologic, ophthalmologic, neurologic, psychiatric, and physical examinations, who were emotionally disturbed or educationally deprived and who had recently been treated with psychoactive medication were excluded from the trial. Piracetam was well tolerated, with no serious adverse clinical or laboratory effects reported. Piracetam-treated children showed significant improvements in reading ability (Gray Oral Reading Test) and reading comprehension (Gilmore Oral Reading Test). Treatment effects were evident after 12 weeks and were sustained for the total period (36 weeks).


Int J Psychophysiol 1986 May;4(1):53-61
The effect of piracetam on short- and long-term verbal retrieval in dyslexic boys.

Helfgott E, Rudel RG, Kairam R.

Studies of 60 dyslexic boys age 8-14, carefully selected for exclusion of intellectual, sensory, psychiatric and neurological impairment and educational deprivation, were conducted to determine the efficacy of Piracetam, over a 12-week period, in improving reading and other related skills. There were no changes at the end of 12 weeks to distinguish the groups in accuracy or comprehension of prose-reading. Short-term memory gains, however, were recorded for the treated group on two different tests, digit span, and a test (Neimark) of immediate and delayed recall. The mean digit span scaled score for the entire group was one S.D. below their mean IQ. Considering only the performance of children whose digit span scaled scores were one S.D. or below the mean (7 or less), the treated group made a significant gain at the end of 12 weeks. On the Neimark test the treated group was significantly superior to the untreated group on first trial learning and they also lost significantly fewer object names after a delay. Improved retrieval from long-term storage could be demonstrated for the treated group on the rapid automatized naming test. Although there was no significant difference between the group at screening, the treated group was significantly faster on letter naming at the end of the drug trial. The treated group also improved their single word reading on the WRAT.


Int J Psychophysiol 1986 May;4(1):41-52
Evaluation of the efficacy of piracetam in treating information processing, reading and writing disorders in dyslexic children.

Tallal P, Chase C, Russell G, Schmitt RL.

Piracetam, a new class of drug (nootropil) thought to enhance specific cognitive skills, was given in a 3300 mg daily dose to half of a group of fifty-five dyslexic boys aged 8-13 years, in a 12-week, double-blind, placebo-controlled study. The other half of the subjects received placebo. All subjects met the following criteria: normal intelligence, normal educational opportunities, no severe emotional problems, no neurological handicaps, good physical health, not taking other psychotropic medication, and scoring at least one and one half years below their mental age equivalent on the Gilmore Oral Reading Test. Non-verbal (auditory and visual) and verbal perceptual, and memory skills were examined, and reading, spelling, language and writing abilities were measured using standardized instruments. Compared to the placebo control group, individuals treated with Piracetam did not show statistically significant improvements above their baseline scores on measures of perception, memory, language, reading accuracy or comprehension, or writing accuracy. However, reading speed and numbers of words written in a timed period were significantly enhanced in subjects treated with Piracetam as compared to placebo. Effective reading and writing ability, taking both rate and accuracy into consideration, were also significantly improved in the Piracetam as compared to the placebo treatment group. The medication was well-tolerated and medical examinations showed no significant adverse reactions. These results encourage further study of Piracetam to determine more precisely the mechanism of action by which specific cognitive skills are affected.

[alohashirt]

I have ADHD and at different times have taken Concerta, Adderall, dexedrine and currently take Focalin XR .Whilst taking Concerta I tried oxiracetam, nefiracetam and priracetam. I also tried huperzine, galantamine, hydergine, Gngko Biloba, magnesium, 5-HTP & fish oil.

The only supplements that had a noticable effect were 5-HTP & fish oil. Perhaps if I weren't taking a stimulant the supplements might have had an effect.

[Athanasios]

Alohashirt, Putting this in its own topic may get better results. Also, try to phrase it as a question or as an answer to a question.

Good Luck

[xanadu]

I have ADHD and at different times have taken Concerta, Adderall, dexedrine and currently take Focalin XR .Whilst taking Concerta I tried oxiracetam, nefiracetam and priracetam. I also tried huperzine, galantamine, hydergine, Gngko Biloba, magnesium, 5-HTP & fish oil.

The only supplements that had a noticable effect were 5-HTP & fish oil. Perhaps if I weren't taking a stimulant the supplements might have had an effect.

Things like piracetam are not at all like adderall or dexidrine. The latter are stimulants and work right away. They have a definate effect which is hard to miss. The effects of piracetam are more subtle and don't even show up for a while. Expecting a "noticable effect" from piracetam in a day or two is likely to be a disappointment. It is more of a long term thing. Fish oil likewise does not do it's effects overnight. It may take weeks or months.

[doug123]

I felt this topic should be bumped with an update to this thread:

http://www.imminst.o...99&t=11395&st=0

Where Michael offers evidence to support the use of Piracetam in healthy subjects.

[Four_Aces]

I felt I should bump this to ask you about your psychotic episode.

Also- I wouldn't say that "a fact is a fact", as you put it. A "fact" is a belief that is held by an individual or group. Xanadu is correct in his belief, and so are you.

I also would like to ask you --okay, if you don't like piracetam, what other products give you cognitive benefit?

[doug123]

The only Xanadu I know of and respect is described in another RUSH song. This song is definately the highlight of RUSH's Farewell to Kings Album. One of my ex girlfriends used to tease me back when I was in high school...RUSH was pretty much all I would listen to when I'd drive around in my little racecar. She said: "you just like RUSH cause of their name...." I've loved them since I was in seventh grade, and own all their albums and no, they are not for everybody!

Lyrics, again, by Neil Peart.

http://www.neilpeart.net/

'To seek the sacred river Alph
To walk the caves of ice
To break my fast on honey dew
And drink the milk of paradise...'

I had heard the whispered tales
Of immortality
The deepest mystery
From an ancient book. I took a clue
I scaled the frozen mountain tops
Of eastern lands unknown
Time and Man alone
Searching for the lost --- Xanadu

Xanadu --- To stand within The Pleasure Dome
Decreed by Kubla Khan
To taste anew the fruits of life
The last immortal man
To find the sacred river Alph
To walk the caves of ice
Oh, I will dine on honey dew
And drink the milks of Paradise

A thousand years have come and gone
But time has passed me by
Stars stopped in the sky
Frozen in an everlasting view
Waiting for the world to end
Weary of the night
Praying for the light
Prison of the lost --- Xanadu

Xanadu --- Held within The Pleasure Dome
Decreed by Kubla Khan
To taste my bitter triumph
As a mad immortal man
Nevermore shall I return
Escape these caves of ice
For I have dined on honey dew
And drunk the milk of Paradise

BTW, I did not like Vapor Trails...there was not even ONE guitar solo on the whole album. My fellow RUSH fans: they are coming out with a new album. They are in the studio still messing around.

More info:

http://www.neilpeart...news/index.html

What a beautiful drumset:



If you've ever seen RUSH live, you've seen the GOD of the drum set. I'm still in awe.

Edited by nootropikamil, 17 August 2006 - 06:36 AM.

[doug123]

Yeah, we're off topic a little bit, but this is worth it --

Neil Peart is still God of the drum set as far as I've seen, the ex girl friend referenced above is still an ex girl friend, and Piracetam still does not seem to have a shred of peer reviewed evidence to support its use as a cognitive enhancer in healthy subjects. That's old news. I'm not going to debate that anymore....anyways...

RUSH has a new album out, I like it best out of their last three -- in other words, I like Snakes and Arrows more than their two previous releases:

Test for Echo and Vapor Trails.

Their new album is entitled Snakes & Arrows and here is a link to where you can purchase Snakes and Arrows at Amazon.com. I also found this video at YouTube of the track: "Far Cry." I am not sure if this is an official video release or not...

Anyways, Snakes and Arrows reveals a different Peart (lyricwise) than I am accustomed to -- one that ponders the existence of Angels and a Heaven -- now, that's a far cry from the objectivist Peart I am accustomed to...

Here are the lyrics to what is probably my favorite track on Snakes and Arrows, "Workin' Them Angels:" (I hope these lyrics are totally accurate):

Driving away to the east, and into the past
History receeds in my rear-view mirror
Carried away on a wave of music down a desert road
Memory humming at the heart of a factory town

All my life
I've been workin' them angels overtime
Riding and driving and living
So close to the edge
Workin' them angels - Overtime

Riding through the Range of Light to the wounded city
Filling my spirit with the wildest wish to fly
Taking the high road to the wounded city
Memory strumming at the heart of a moving picture

All this time
I've been workin' them angels overtime
Riding and diving and flying
Just over the edge
Workin' them angels - Overtime

Driving down the razor's edge 'tween the past and the future
Turn up the music and smile
Get carried away on the songs and stories of vanished times
Memory drumming at the heart of an English winter
Memories beating at the heart of an African village

Workin' them Angels overtime...this album features some excellent guitar solos from one of my all time favorite guitar players, Alex Lifeson, and Geddy Lee is still one of my favorite bass players.

Rock on, Rush!

Peace.

Edited by chrono, 25 August 2010 - 05:34 PM.
quoted his own previous long post

[doug123]

I found a link where you can hear Armor And Sword, which is battling for the #1 spot in my real life song favorite list between Workin' them Angles right now...these lyrics are spectacular -- (I hope they are accurate):

"Armor And Sword (lyrics by Neil Peart):"

The snakes and arrows a child is heir to
Are enough to leave a thousand cuts
We build our defenses, a place of safety
And leave the darker places unexplored

Sometimes the fortress is too strong
Or the love is too weak
What should have been our armor
Becomes a sharp and angry sword

Our better natures seek elevation
A refuge for the coming night
No one gets to their heaven without a fight

We hold beliefs as a consolation
A way to take us out of ourselves
Meditation or medication
A comfort, or a promised reward

Sometimes the spirit is too strong
Or the flesh is too weak
Sometimes the need is just too great
For the solace we seek
The suit of shining armor
Becomes a keen and bloody sword

A refuge for the coming night
A future of eternal light
No one gets to their heaven without a fight

Confused alarms of struggle and flight
Blood is drained of color
By the flashes of artillery light
No one gets to their heaven without a fight
The battle flags are flown
At the feet of a god unknown
No one gets to their heaven without a fight

Sometimes the damage is too great
Or the will is too weak
What should have been our armor
Becomes a sharp and burning sword

You can hear this track on Geddy Lee's unofficial MySpace site (as of May 11, 2007):

http://profile.myspa...iendid=83553146

Here's Alex Lifeson's unofficial MySpace site, where you can preview many more tracks.

http://profile.myspa...iendid=84100019

Finally, here's Peart's official MySpace site:

http://profile.myspa...endid=107016624

What I really admire about this album is the fact that there are in fact three instrumental tracks (just jams).

Here is the Itunes link -- if you buy Snakes and Arrows there, you also get a short video which features an interview where the band members discuss how the production of this album went; how they had jam sessions which I think they said evolved into some of the tracks on the album:

http://phobos.apple....136640&s=143441

Take care...

[doug123]

Update: as of May 14, 2007, Geddy Lee's unofficial MySpace profile no longer has "Armor and Sword" as the default track.

Today, Geddy Lee's unofficial site now features one of the three instrumental tracks tracks from Snakes and Arrows (official website) called "The Main Monkey Business." It's excellent! However, my favorite instrumental track on Snakes and Arrows is probably "Malignant Narcissism."

Oh, and for those who aren't musicians or don't know what a "jam session" (often referred to as jamming) is:

Jam session
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

For other uses of "Jam session", see Jam session (disambiguation).

A jam session is a musical act where musicians gather and play (or "jam") without extensive preparation or predefined arrangements.

The origin of the term jam in this context can be traced back to the 1920s. According to the Online Dictionary of Etymology, the term originally appeared ca. 1929, referring to a "short, free improvised passage performed by the whole band". The derivation of this usage is obscure, but like other novel terms that came into English through jazz music — such as the terms "hip", "hep" and "hepcat" — it is possible that it ultimately derives from the West African Wolof language.

The word 'jam' can be more loosely used to refer to any particularly inspired or improvisational part of a musical performance, especially in rock and jazz music. Jam sessions, however, are generally for the benefit of the performers and not part of a public performance.

Jam sessions are often used to develop new material, find suitable arrangements, or simply as a social gathering and communal practice session. Jam sessions may be based upon existing songs or forms, may be loosely based on an agreed chord progression or chart suggested by one participant, or may be wholly improvisational. Jam sessions can range from very loose gatherings of amateurs to sophisticated improvised recording sessions intended to be edited and released to the public.

Jazz
The New York jazz scene during World War II was famous for its after-hours jam sessions. One of the most famous was the regular after-hours jam at Minton's Playhouse in New York City that ran in the 1940s and early 1950s. The Minton's jams were a fertile meeting place and proving ground for both established soloists like Ben Webster and Lester Young, and the younger jazz musicians who would soon become leading exponents of the bebop movement, including Thelonious Monk (Minton's house pianist), Charlie Parker, and Dizzy Gillespie. The Minton's jams were legendary for their highly competitive "cutting contests", in which soloists would try to keep up with the house band and outdo each other in improvisation skill.

Rock
As the instrumental proficiency of pop and rock musicians improved in the Sixties and early Seventies, jamming also became a regular feature of rock music; bands such as Cream, The Jimi Hendrix Experience, The Grateful Dead and the Allman Brothers Band would feature live pieces easily over fifteen minutes in length.

Some notable recorded jams in the rock idiom:

The bonus CD of the 25th anniversary of the album Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs by Eric Clapton's early 70s band, Derek & The Dominos includes a number of long improvised jams between members of the group and other musicians, such as The Allman Brothers Band following the historic first meeting between the two groups earlier that day. As a result of this jam, guitarist Duane Allman was invited to join the Dominos after having recorded only three songs, and he made a major contribution to the resulting LP.
The extended track "Apple Jam", which appears on George Harrison 1970 solo album All Things Must Pass and features most of the session musicians who contributed to the LP.
Nirvana's improvised hidden track from album In Utero (1993), and 'semi-improvised' hidden track from Nevermind (1991).

Here's the link:

http://profile.myspa...iendid=83553146

Rock on, Rush!

Edited by adam_kamil, 14 May 2007 - 10:27 PM.

[luv2increase]

Post this in the General Discussion session or something. Here I have my hopes up on some new piracetam research or something, and I see this. :(

[edward]

Post this in the General Discussion session or something.  Here I have my hopes up on some new piracetam research or something, and I see this. :(

I second that motion.

[doug123]

Check out this dude:

http://profile.myspa...iendid=75258211

There are enemy soldiers on American soil. The names of these soldiers are Heart Disease, Cancer and Stroke. They are killing over 3,000 Americans a day.

My mission: "Kill" these enemy soldiers.

Lt. Col. Weinstein was born in Washington, D.C., grew up in Virginia and spent twenty years in Berlin, Germany; he is retired from the Army Reserve as a Lieutenant Colonel with 30 years of service and spent about half of that time as a military instructor with the Command & General Staff College.

He has been featured on radio and television, among others, on the History Channel and Fox Sports Net as well as in various publications such as the Washington Times, RAZOR magazine and the Herald. He is also on the Expert Panel of 24 experts for the New York based company called Affinity Solutions as their Health and Fitness Adviser as a service to other national companies and their employees.

His background is unique and diverse: military instructor, attorney, motivational speaker, wellness coach, certified corporate trainer, and certified personal trainer. Bob is fluent in German and English.

In furthering the health and wellness aspect of his military years, he started his own business "The Health Colonel" and specializes in a military-style workout on Fort Lauderdale Beach that incorporates strength, cardio, flexibility and agility training, both personal training and group sessions.

Bob is known as the Health Colonel and is a motivational speaker. A sample of some of his topics:

How to Build Strong Teams
How to Enhance Performance in the Workplace
How to Get that Energy Level Back Up
How to Eat for Performance and Energy
How to Eliminate that After Work Fatigue Through Exercise
How to Lead and Inspire the Team to Carry the Ball

He is a member of the National Speakers Association and the Florida Speakers Association. You can find out more about his programs at www.NoMoreCryBabies.com.

He is also presently writing a book on personal development, health and fitness.

His burning desire is to help others lead healthier and happier lives and reduce some of the preventable health-related suffering and deaths caused by an unhealthy lifestyle.

Some of Bobs clients as a speaker: Sony, American Express, KPMG, AOL Latin America, IBM, AARP and Humana.

[thumb] ...what a dude!

[luv2increase]

Now you are just instigating. This is very immature.

[doug123]

Now that I've officially gone off topic, I guess I might follow up on it. Moderators are free to move these posts as they see fit.

Posted in Today's news is a particularly relevant report:

Reuters: News Source



Internet can act as a personal trainer-study
14 May 2007 20:12:03 GMT
Source: Reuters

By Julie Steenhuysen

CHICAGO, May 14 (Reuters Life!) - Using the Internet can help motivate inactive adults to get up off the couch, researchers said on Monday, in a finding that could put some personal trainers out of work.

Researchers at Rhode Island's Miriam Hospital, an affiliate of Brown University's Warren Alpert Medical School, found people who took part in a tailored Internet exercise program went from doing virtually no exercise to an average of two hours a week.

After six months of following a tailored Internet program, users were exercising 120 minutes per week, they reported in the Archives of Internal Medicine on Monday.

This was better than two comparison groups, with users of mailed, printed programs exercising 112.5 minutes a week while people who accessed standard Internet activity programs were exercising 90 minutes.

The researchers studied 249 healthy, sedentary adults from Rhode Island and Pittsburgh who were selected randomly to take part in one of the three physical activity programs.

To measure whether the volunteers became more fit, the researchers measured their use of oxygen while exercising. Overall, they found everyone had on average a 5.2 percent improvement in fitness at six months, and a 5.9 percent improvement at 12 months.

The most popular form of exercise was walking.

Researcher Bess Marcus, who worked on the study, said the motivational program worked like a counseling session, helping people find the barriers that kept them from exercising.

She said her team was a bit worried about using a sedentary activity like the Internet to motivate people to exercise, but people did not spend much time sitting in front of their computers. They typically logged on for about 5 minutes to ask a question or record their activity and then logged off.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends regular, moderate-intensity physical activity, such as 30 minutes of brisk walking, five or more times a week.

The U.S. Institute of Medicine has said people need far more than that -- up to an hour virtually every day.

AlertNet news is provided by

Attached is a screen shot of the primary source from which this report was generated. It seems some of us need to get away from the keyboard more often. [wis]

Speaking of which, I'm on my way to the gym right now. Take care.

Attached Files

•  untitled.JPG   231.81KB   0 downloads

Edited by chrono, 25 August 2010 - 05:35 PM.
quoted his own previous long post

[robosapiens]

Piracetam worked for me in that it drastically improved my Darts game accuracy

I couldn't exactly tell if I was "smarter", however everyone I interacted with seemed more predictable, they appeared "less intelligent" than before.

I suppose that was just placebo, just like this coffee I'm drinking, ho hum...

[concentrate]

Wow this thread sucked, but here is some pubmed:

"Piracetam is a potent antioxidant, a cerebral neuroprotector, a neuronal metabolic enhancer, and a brain integrative agent".

"Piracetam appears to be effective in reducing symptoms of tardive dyskinesia"

PMID: 17685739


------------------------------------

"Piracetam (2-oxo-1-pyrrolidine-acetamide), the most common of the nootropic drugs, is a cyclic derivative of gamma-aminobutyric acid. The treatment with piracetam improves learning, memory, brain metabolism, and capacity. Piracetam has been shown to alter the physical properties of the plasma membrane by increasing its fluidity and by protecting the cell against hypoxia. It increases red cell deformability and normalizes aggregation of hyperactive platelets. Piracetam is an agent with antithrombotic, neuroprotective and rheological properties. The interaction of this molecule with the membrane phospholipids restores membrane fluidity and could explain the efficacy of piracetam in various disorders ranging from dementia and vertigo to myoclonus and stroke."

PMID: 16459490

--------------------------------------


"Piracetam, a derivative of the neurotransmitter gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), has a variety of physiological effects that may result, at least in part, from the restoration of cell membrane fluidity. At a neuronal level, piracetam modulates neurotransmission in a range of transmitter systems (including cholinergic and glutamatergic), has neuroprotective and anticonvulsant properties, and improves neuroplasticity. At a vascular level, it appears to reduce erythrocyte adhesion to vascular endothelium, hinder vasospasm, and facilitate microcirculation. This diverse range of physiological effects is consistent with its use in a range of clinical indications. Its efficacy is documented in cognitive disorders and dementia, vertigo, cortical myoclonus, dyslexia, and sickle cell anemia. While high doses are sometimes necessary, piracetam is well tolerated."

PMID: 16007238


Sounds pretty awesome to me, and that only took me 5 minutes on pubmed. Combined with the anecdotal reports(search google or erowid), you can't really go wrong.

My piracetam should be here any day now and I can't wait !!

[meursault]

Is there any reason why you felt compelled to sell us on piracetam by double posting this msg here and on the research and supplier forum?