20 replies to this topic

[onz]

TLDR: Tennis elbow/climbers elbow for more than 6 months, standard treatments not working. Are there any supplements known to cause problems with tendons, or problems with healing? And any supplements known for accelerating recovery?

 

I have spent many hours searching online, and read a couple of the existing old threads on this forum, but I'm hoping I can gain additional insight from the knowledgable people of this community. After 6 months, I’m becoming desperate. 

 

The issue is tennis elbow, specifically tendinosis associated with the lateral epicondyle (outer elbow tendon). So far the only treatment that has had a meaningful impact is eccentric exercises which I’ve been doing for 2 months, but the improvement plateaued after two weeks. The cause is completely unexpected and unknown, so I'm wondering if my supplements are having a negative impact, and what are the best options to recover? Part of the reason I'm posting this, is because some supplements are known to cause tendon problems such as resveratrol and pterostilbene - but this information is actually hard to find online outside of niche communities like us.

 

Background:

Age 33. Very healthy balanced diet for 7 years with regular exercise.

Exercise consists of regular weight training, plus hiking and cycling for cardio. Previously rock climbing.

Diet is always a strong emphasis on high intake of vegetables and salads, half of my week is vegetarian, when I eat meat it’s chicken or fish.

I've never experienced any injuries in the gym, started rock climbing 4 years ago, no injuries during climbing, I have not been rock climbing for 18 months due to location change - this elbow tendinosis is associated with climbers, but, I hadn’t been climbing for a year when the injury occurred.

 

Current regular supplements for more than 1 year:

Astaxanthan - 12mg. Daily.

Vit D - 1/2000 IU. Avg Daily.

Magnesium - 500mg, on and off. EOD.

Vit K, MK4 - 5/15mg, on and off. EOD.

MSM - 3g. Daily.

BioSil - RDI. Daily.

NR (now NMN) - 125mg sublingual. Weekly.

UCII and type 2 Collagen, RDA. Daily.

Vit C - 1/2000mg time release, on and off, EOD.

Boron - 3mg. EOD.

NAC - 600/1800mg, EOD for the past 9 months, this is the only correlation I have with the timing of the tendinosis. (I had a 1 month break with no improvement)

 

What's peculiar about this elbow tendinosis, is it began in the gym doing a warm up set of dumbbell tricep extensions. And very slowly over the next 4 months it has become much worse, and now I feel like I'm in a desperate situation. As soon as this occurred I started avoiding any workouts that would cause discomfort. Things that I have tried:

• I had a 2 month break from the gym to see if there would be improvement, no change. 
• I have tried the recommended stretches, no significant improvement.
• I am not using NSAIDs, as I don't want to mask any pain and potentially inhibit recovery.
• Cissus for 1 month, no improvement.
• Eccentric exercise, 2 months. The only thing that gave me meaningful improvement, but it plateaued after the second week.

 

Sharing any of your experiences, knowledge, or suggestions would be very welcome. I’m honestly very sad thinking that I can never climb again, and worse to think that my new normal is having menial tasks be very painful. I'm open to any suggestions including unproven treatments.

Edited by onz, 17 August 2020 - 09:34 AM.

[Ibbz]

I had something similar & I'm a very similar age - nothing really worked for it - saw a physio, myotherapist etc - didn't try any supplements specifically for it though but I've been taking Astaxanthan & Longvida Curcumin the last several years which didn't seem to make much of a difference for it. The one thing I would look at though is BPC157 - if anything will help, I'd say it'd be that.

 

Mine's a lot better now, but the only real healing for me in my case was time (and to make sure I had the right computer desk setup as I work in an office). It probably took at least 6 months before I saw any real improvement and I still avoid dumbbell raises.

[Ibbz]

double post

Edited by Ibbz, 17 August 2020 - 11:31 AM.

[Justin BoBustinBananaFanaF]

I've had this for about a decade. My biggest help was voodoo flossing during repetitive stress cases.

[onz]

I had something similar & I'm a very similar age - nothing really worked for it - saw a physio, myotherapist etc - didn't try any supplements specifically for it though but I've been taking Astaxanthan & Longvida Curcumin the last several years which didn't seem to make much of a difference for it. The one thing I would look at though is BPC157 - if anything will help, I'd say it'd be that.

 

Mine's a lot better now, but the only real healing for me in my case was time (and to make sure I had the right computer desk setup as I work in an office). It probably took at least 6 months before I saw any real improvement and I still avoid dumbbell raises.

 

How long did you have it for?.. I've known about BPC but not confident about importing that into Japan, that compound gets so much attention online it's strange there is no legitimate commercial use of it yet. Did you ever try it?

 

I've had this for about a decade. My biggest help was voodoo flossing during repetitive stress cases.

Did the improvements plateau or is the recovery continuing?

[Ibbz]

How long did you have it for?.. I've known about BPC but not confident about importing that into Japan, that compound gets so much attention online it's strange there is no legitimate commercial use of it yet. Did you ever try it?

 

 

I tried the stable form of BPC from Diagen, but this was actually before I had the tennis elbow. Can't say I noticed any difference at the time, but I was primarily focused on a long term knee issue I also had, which it didn't unfortunately help with. Similar to other things like MK677 it's stuck in a bit of a grey area legally I guess, and no one seems to want to spend the (large amount) of money to get it approved officially.

[OlderThanThou2]

Perhaps check with a doctor if you can do a Platelet Rich Plasma injection for that. I've done one injection for my triceps tendon and it helped, but it's not effective for all tendons.

 

I take 500mg shilajit, it helps strengthen collagen.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC6364418/

 

Also I put some emu oil twice a day. It still doesn't solve the problem completely. I imagine if I did more PRPs it would help more.

[Justin BoBustinBananaFanaF]

Did the improvements plateau or is the recovery continuing?[/quote]
for me the problem gets worse every time I engage in repetitive stress activities such as typing. Voodoo floss minimizes the degree of worsening. the pain does not really improve that much except by avoiding the stress for long periods of time

[AIP]

HI, 

 

I don't have the solution but i have the same problem and i'm also a climber. 

 

Tendonitis is a workout killer /buzz kill for sure.

 

I also take the full stack of stuff: astaxanthin, fish oil, krill oil, tumeric, beet juice.  In the past this has kept most of my tendonitis problems at bay but recently after a big Covid break from working out i jumped back into it perhaps too fast and developed a bad case of tendonitis in my left forearm/elbow.

 

Now i'm thinking about a few months off but that will suck!! 

 

My climbing buddy suggested some exercises which i have not researched - designed to use and strengthen tedons and muscles pulling in the reverse direction.  Reverse wrist curls, reverse arm curls etc.  combined with some stretching and rest. Claims without those exercises he couldn't get rid of it.  One of my brothers required drugs and PT to solve his problem. 

 

I hope it gets better for you. 

[onz]

Update.

 

So far, supplements found to theoretically cause tendon issues: 

- Resveratrol and Pterostilbene.

- Fisetin also inhibits the gene that controls tendon repair, I believe the same one that is down regulated by Resveratrol and Pterostilbene

- Zinc, excess supplementation leading to a copper deficiency causing decreased efficiency of collagen synthesis. (Forgot to mention in OP, I was taking a lot of zinc for cold/flu when this injury first occurred)

- I get the feeling there are others.

 

Still attempting rehab via standard eccentric exercises, seems to help but hard to tell because progress is extremely slow if at all.

[zorba990]

Opinions:

I would vote for this as the cause : "- Zinc, excess supplementation leading to a copper deficiency causing decreased efficiency of collagen synthesis. (Forgot to mention in OP, I was taking a lot of zinc for cold/flu when this injury first occurred)"
Based on my experience it took a bit of time with manganese 10mg and copper 2.5mg to fix zinc overdose. Might go higher on manganese but it can be fairly constipating.

I agree with voodoo floss and a healing adjunct as well as BPC-157 and therapies, in particular active release therapy.

I think ice exacerbates these types of injuries in the long terms.

While its maybe counterintuitive, tendons and ligaments actually respond well to quick overspeed movements with very light weights.
So as a means to prevent injury from slow, careful movements with heavy weights - it makes sense to incorporate using bands to do overspeed movements.

https://www.westside...ntric-unloading

[RWhigham]

Ruta Graviolens is the homeopathic remedy for tendonitis. It is supposed to "tolerate repetition" and take "30 days" to wear off.

Re homeopathy is quackery  "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so"  Mark Twain. When I first given homeopathy by a doctor I had an amazing experience. When I found out how homeopathy is made, I walked about in a daze of disbelief for a week. 

 

Amazon carries Boiron 30c and 200ck. 30c is based on the 5th edition of Samuel Hahnemann's "Organon of Medicine" published in1833.

Homeopathy was developed from this edition for nearly 100 years. 200ck is based on the 6th edition, written in 1841, kept secret by his widow, then published in 1921. Hahnemann claimed that his best discoveries were in the 6th edition.

 

I took Ruta 30c for tendonitis in my left arm, and my arm improved. I was impatient and kept repeating the Ruta 30c without waiting 30 days. I developed severe acid indigestion that kept me up at night, a cough that also kept me up at night, red painfully irritated eyes, and severe tiredness. I have a long history in my past of acid indigestion, chronic bronchitis (cough), tendonitis in both my shoulders, nasal congestion, and chest wall pain on the left,  Ruta temporarily aggravated or improved all of those.  Ruta appears to fit me perfectly. I'm delighted to have found it--thanks to tendonitis in my arm. Now I just have to wait 30 days before taking it again.

 

William Boericke's Materia Medica says Ruta acts on periosteum, cartileges, eyes, uterus, and flexor tendons especially. All parts of the body are painful, sprains, and lassitude. Eyes red hot and painful. Gastralgis. Cough. 

 

Theory:

Everything above absolute zero temperature is in radiative balance with its surrndings, emitting and absorbing equal amounts of thermal energy. Homeopathic remedies work by clusters of water molecules making "quantum traps" that capture unique room temperature radiation spectrums. The water clusters are destroyed by light or heat, but can remain stable for many years when kept in the dark at room temperature or less. These room temperature thermal spectrums are extremely difficult to measure, but biological systems respond to them at extremely small distances. [I'm searching for the paper where they measured these spectra and transmitted them from France to Italy, then reproduced them in distilled water by radiating it with the recorded spectra. The measurements were so difficult the French lab had to be very electromagnetically quiet--no cell phones could be nearby]

 

Everything above absolute zero temperature is in radiative balance with its surroundings, emitting and absorbing equal amounts of thermal energy. Homeopathic remedies work by clusters of water molecules making "quantum traps" that capture unique room temperature radiation spectrums. The water clusters are destroyed by light or heat, but can remain stable for many years when kept in the dark at room temperature or less. These room temperature thermal spectrums are extremely difficult to measure, but biological systems respond to them at extremely small distances. [I'm searching for the paper where they measured these spectra and transmitted them from France to Italy, then reproduced them in distilled water by radiating it with the recorded spectra. The measurements were so difficult the French lab had to be very electromagnetically quiet--no cell phones could be nearby]

 

Edited by RWhigham, 06 October 2020 - 05:09 AM.

[mkp6019]

I agree with Zorba990. I used to powerlift and never dealt with tendonitis. Having worked out for the last three months while slowly scaling my volume up have noticed tendonitis creeping up in my right elbow. I have taken days off and reduced volume and yet am still hampered by it. During this time I have been supplementing for around six weeks  with Vitamin D and Zinc in an attempt to bolster immune system. Dietary tracking via Cronometer has shown my zinc and copper balance less than ideal. I definitely this could be a possible cause. Will add more copper based foods or supplement with it.

[RWhigham]

A frequent cure for tendonitis is Ruta Graviolens 30c.  (Apologies for the time wasting rambling above) 

 

Are there any supplements known to cause problems with tendons,

Topoisomerase inhibitors and poisons may cause tendon ruptures.  Some common supplements fall in this category. This edit will close before I can locate the reference it but it I learned this from Dr. Rivas on Josh Mitteldorf's blog. He likely was familiar with pharmaceutical topo inhibitors which may have been more powerful than our over the counter supplements.

Edited by RWhigham, 07 October 2020 - 07:58 PM.

[RWhigham]

Paul Rivas comment that fluoroquinolone antibiotics cause tendon ruptures by inhibiting topoisomerase. This was believed at the time.  Newer research (ref) shows that, at clinical doses in humans, fluoroquinolones do not inhibit topoisomerase (in contrast to rats), so it seems that fluoroquinolones do not demonstrate that topo-inhibitors harms tendons as previously thought.

Edited by RWhigham, 07 October 2020 - 09:43 PM.

[Rocket]

Bpc157 is a miracle peptide. It did wonders for my heal spurs unexpectedly and it did fabulous for my weight lifting induced bad shoulder. I would literally run it every day of my life were it not for money.

[Gal220]

Looks like a good regimen, might try cool cayenne to help nutrients reach the tendon.

 

Maybe also add type 1 and 3 collagen like Sports Research powder for building blocks.

 

Probably already take some fish oil, high epa fish oil is good for inflammation, but need at least 3 grams a day of EPA.  Gamma E is good idea to take with fish oil to prevent oxidation.

I prefer liquid over capsules so you know if its gone bad.

 

One mechanism of fish oil

"Omega-3 fatty acids are incorporated into cartilage cell (chondrocyte) membranes. In a dose-dependent manner, they decrease enzymes that degrade cartilage and inflammatory cytokines (IL-1alpha, TNF alpha, COX-2,) thereby affecting cartilage cell gene transcription"

 

Things in general tend to heal better if you keep your sugar under control.

[onz]

A frequent cure for tendonitis is Ruta Graviolens 30c.  (Apologies for the time wasting rambling above) 

 

Topoisomerase inhibitors and poisons may cause tendon ruptures.  Some common supplements fall in this category. This edit will close before I can locate the reference it but it I learned this from Dr. Rivas on Josh Mitteldorf's blog. He likely was familiar with pharmaceutical topo inhibitors which may have been more powerful than our over the counter supplements.

 

I couldn't find any supplements listed as Topoisomerase inhibitors from a quick google search, do you know of any or are you able to provide any links?

 

Opinions:

I would vote for this as the cause : "- Zinc, excess supplementation leading to a copper deficiency causing decreased efficiency of collagen synthesis. (Forgot to mention in OP, I was taking a lot of zinc for cold/flu when this injury first occurred)"
Based on my experience it took a bit of time with manganese 10mg and copper 2.5mg to fix zinc overdose. Might go higher on manganese but it can be fairly constipating.

I agree with voodoo floss and a healing adjunct as well as BPC-157 and therapies, in particular active release therapy.

I think ice exacerbates these types of injuries in the long terms.

While its maybe counterintuitive, tendons and ligaments actually respond well to quick overspeed movements with very light weights.
So as a means to prevent injury from slow, careful movements with heavy weights - it makes sense to incorporate using bands to do overspeed movements.

https://www.westside...ntric-unloading

 

The zinc angle is stil uncertain in my case, I was showing no signs of overdose, the length of supplementation was very short, and I've take larger doses for longer periods without any issue. However, it may be a contributing factor along with other variables.

[shp5]

did you try manual therapy / psteopathy? for DIY, there's flossing or gua-sha. you could also try taping it, it's simple and cheap. 

[ironfistx]

Here happens to be what I have uncovered.

 

I've had tendonitis in quads (3 months to heal), shoulder (9 months to heal), quads again (3 months to heal), bottom of foot (seriously like 2 days to heal, details follow,) etc.

 

Everyone says don't use ice.  When I had shoulder tendonitis, I started icing it following the directions on tendonitisexpert.net (I think that's the site).  He explains that ice massage, not an ice pack, but legitimately ice massage with a paper cup you peel back on exposing ice and massage with that for a specified time or until it goes numb.  The thinking was that ice massage manually massages it, but increases bloodflow when you stop, and lowers inflammation.  We know, tendonitis isn't really inflammation, but I guess the concept still applies.

 

With my quads, I did PT.  They gave me some exercises, stretching, foam rolling, really light weight on a horizontal squat machine, wall ball squats, nothing fancy.  Went away after 3 months.

 

Yeah, a lot of people say don't use ice.  It worked for me.  Let me explain.  With my shoulder, it was hurting for months before I tried using ice.  The next morning it had reduced.  It was still there, and still took a while, but it was noticeable.  I've found that tendonitis doesn't heal linearly.  It will hurt at a certain point, for weeks, and then one day you arise and it's a little better.  Then it stays there forever and then one day it's a little better.  I observed the same thing with weighted eccentrics, which I will get to shortly.

 

I'm not promoting that guy's site, you can read it or not.

 

Now let's talk about weighted eccentrics.  You need to use the other hand for the concentric part, and then only use the affected part on the eccentric.  This doesn't mean do the full range "because the eccentric is in there."  It means do the eccentric part with weight, and then use no weight to get back to the top or whatever.  I did this for my shoulder.  I did 3 exercises, I forgot what they were.  Understand, this takes a long time.  I literally did them 3 times a week(?) for months while healing.

 

Something else I've done is graston (ISTYM or, IART or something like that, it's scraping the tendon with metal tools).  Gua sha is like this.  I've had a PT do this and I bought a tool on amazon and do it myself.

 

For the foot, and I pretty much think this is the only thing this will work on, I bought a spikey ball and I am not kidding it relieved my foot tendonitis in like a week.  Every morning I would get out of bed and my foot would hurt so bad for the first few steps.  The pain was ripping across the bottom of the foot.  I got this ball, rolled on it a bit at work, and the discomfort was basically gone really quickly.  Not kidding.

 

Voodoo floss.  I've heard this works.  I've used it when I felt like tendonitis was developing in a forearm, but don't know if it did much.

 

Let's talk about why you get tendonitis.

 

For me, I think zinc supplements were correlated.  I was taking zinc a few times in my life, and most of those times I happened to get tendonitis.  People say it outbalances copper.  However, there was a thread here where people said all copper supplements are copper 2 and unusable by your body.  I'm afraid of copper supplements now.

 

I got quad tendonitis while lifting heavy.

 

I got shoulder tendonitis while trying to do a dragon flag.  Tendonitis is supposed to be an overuse injury.

 

I got foot tendonitis from being active?

 

There are a few supplements around.  I tried enzymes which did very little, after reading a billion OMG WOBENZYM CURED MY TENDONITIS type posts online, I was hyper.  Curcumin gave me diarrhea and the inability to get a boner.  Gelatin, for a while, I was using gelatin.  I made bone broth and jello, which seemed to improve things.  I have recently discovered a few other supplements which claim to help tendons heal.  I have no idea the process by which these work. They are, tendofit (mucopolysaccharides), tendoforte (specific type of collagen), tendopure (seems to be the same for tendofit).  Possibly these need more research.  There is DMSO, which I bought, but was afraid to use.  It's a solvent therefore make sure your skin is clean.

 

I don't know man.  Rest doesn't work.  Stretching doesn't work.  You can rest tendonitis for months and not get better.  You need to do things so the tendons get movement.  Oh, there is PRP, which I haven't tried, but visited a doctor who does it.  People have varying levels of gains from it.  Some people say it works well, others say it did nothing.  perhaps doctor skill is a trait.

[shp5]

when trying the DMSO, add 10% urea to decrease skin irritation (recommendation from user aconita here)

 

just remembered ciprofloxacin or a similar antibiotic, or tryptamine / 5htp can cause similar problems

Edited by shp5, 27 October 2020 - 06:15 PM.