123 replies to this topic

[Dorian Grey]

High time we started looking at the vaccines we might all be getting soon.  I'm going off half cocked here as I'm all at sea, but we need to get the ball rolling.  

 

The new mRNA vaccines are a bit spooky, as millions of doses may be given over the next few months under Emergency Use Authorization, without the 2 year observation period looking for possible delayed adverse events that is customary with new vaccine development.  While this seems a bit ominous to me, between the Pfizer & Moderna's 74,000 trial volunteers, there really hasn't been any substantial adverse events reported that I can find.  It appears these vaccines work without adjuvants, which seem to be associated with problems in other vaccines, so plus one in my book if this is true.  Moderna has never brought any drug or vaccine to market before, so I'm partial to Pfizer (love their little blue pills too!)  

 

Not sure if I've got my facts straight here, but it appears China's Sinovac, GlaxoSmithKline (GSK), & an Australian company are using SQUALENE, which caught my eye.  I recall squalene adjuvanted anthrax vaccine was associated with Gulf War Syndrome (many with GWS had developed antibodies to squalene), & the squalene adjuvanted Pandemrix H1N1 flu vaccine was associated with narcolepsy in children back in 2009/2010.  

 

Noticed it was reported: A Coronavirus Vaccine Could Kill Half A Million Sharks (squalene derived from shark livers) 

https://www.npr.org/...vationists-warn

Sounds like a lot of the vaccines might contain this!  Will there be a new "Warp Speed Syndrome" associated with squalene adjuvented vaccines?  

 

AstraZeneca's AZD1222 vaccine is simian adenovirus based, & I can't find an adjuvant associated with this vaccine.  AZ is the one where the trial was halted due to possible association with Transverse Myelitis, & a previous issue with multiple sclerosis that was claimed to be undiagnosed before the trial.  The AZ shot is the closest I've seen to traditional vaccines, so perhaps the least "experimental"?   

 

Novavax is adjuvanted with "Matrix-M" plant based / Quillaja saponins (Chilean soapbark) formulated with cholesterol and phospholipids.  Noticed Novavax is claiming less chance of Vaccine Enhanced Disease (aka ADE / antibody dependent enhancement of disease), as their immune response is Th1 dominant.  Isn't the T-Cell immunity what we want for cross-immunity to mutated strains?  Looks good to me!  It appears this vaccine is cultured in insect (moth) cells?  

 

Sorry if this post isn't a fount' of knowledge and lacks links & references, but I'm simply trying to stimulate some activity in this area.  The big push to "get your jab" will be on sooner than we think.  Don't know if we'll have much choice, but if we do, let's hope we make an informed choice.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 24 November 2020 - 06:11 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

Oh Jeeze, did I really mis-spell Which in the title?  Vaccines must have had me thinking of witches brew!  

 

Double double toil and trouble; Fire burn and cauldron bubble.  OK folks...  Come & get it!  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 24 November 2020 - 05:54 AM.

[Mind]

The fact that the AstraZeneca vaccine effectiveness drops precipitously if given the wrong dose at the wrong time, does not inspire confidence: https://www.reuters....d-idUSKBN28327Q

 

Every year (for decades now) I hear that the newest seasonal flu vaccine is extremely effective, yet flu and flu-like illnesses sweep the globe every year without pause.

 

In addition older immune systems do not respond robustly to vaccines, which is a problem because COVID-19 is primarily a disease that affects the very old. This was discussed here as well: https://www.longecit...-no-guarantees/

Edited by Mind, 24 November 2020 - 05:55 PM.

[zorba990]

You first

[pamojja]

None, thanks.

[Dorian Grey]

Pssst.  Anyone interested in seeing the FULL Safety Summery Report from Moderna on their mRNA-1273 vaccine trial? 

 

Del Bigtree's Informed Consent Action Network ( https://www.icandecide.org/ ) got it through FOIA.  

 

https://www.icandeci...-Production.pdf

 

It's 1036 pages long, so make some coffee.  

[Dorian Grey]

Squalene in the news: 

 

https://www.yahoo.co...-024146859.html

 

Narcolepsy fiasco spurs Covid vaccine fears in Sweden

 

"Take a vaccine developed in haste? Never again, says Meissa Chebbi, who, like hundreds of other young Swedes suffered debilitating narcolepsy after a mass vaccination campaign against the 2009-2010 swine flu pandemic."

 

"Health authorities in the Scandinavian country in 2009 urged the public to voluntarily take the Pandemrix vaccine against swine flu, made by British drug company GlaxoSmithKline.  More than 60 percent heeded the call -- the highest level in the world.

 

But Chebbi and hundreds of others, primarily children and young adults under 30, were later diagnosed with narcolepsy as a side effect of the vaccine.  A link was eventually established to an adjuvant, or booster, in the Pandemrix vaccine which was intended to strengthen the immune response.  Narcolepsy is a chronic disorder of the nervous system that causes excessive and often uncontrollable drowsiness.

 

"I have sleep attacks all the time in all kinds of situations and at inappropriate times... In my food, at job interviews, at lectures, seminars, at university. I've fallen asleep at my workplace, I fall asleep on buses and everywhere," Chebbi says.

 

"It has destroyed my life."

 

The Swedish Pharmaceutical Insurance has so far approved 440 of 702 narcolepsy claims linked to Pandemrix, paying out a total of 100 million kronor (9.8 million euros, $11.6 million) in compensation."

-------------------------------

Note to self...  Avoid the squalene adjuvant.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 26 November 2020 - 06:48 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

For inquiring minds, here's to poop on squalene & Gulf War Syndrome.  I'm not intending to steer this thread to anti-vaxx; on the contrary, I'm excited it appears some of the vaccines (mRNA) might not be adjuvanted. 

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/20206873/

 

Vaccination, squalene and anti-squalene antibodies: facts or fiction?

 

Abstract: 

Squalene, a hydrocarbon obtained for commercial purposes primarily from shark liver oil and other botanic sources, is increasingly used as an immunologic adjuvant in several vaccines, including seasonal and the novel influenza A (H1N1) 2009 pandemic flu vaccines. Nearly a decade ago, squalene was supposed to be the experimental anthrax vaccine ingredient that caused the onset of Persian Gulf War syndrome in many veterans, since antibodies to squalene were detected in the blood of most patients affected by this syndrome.

 

This evidence has raised a widespread concern about the safety of squalene containing adjuvants (especially MF59) of influenza vaccines. Nevertheless, further clinical evidence clearly suggested that squalene is poorly immunogenic, that low titres of antibodies to squalene can be also detected in sera from healthy individuals, and that neither the presence of anti-squalene antibodies nor their titre is significantly increased by immunization with vaccines containing squalene (or MF59) as an adjuvant. This review summarizes the current scientific evidence about the relationship between squalene, anti-squalene antibodies and vaccination.

 

------------------------------

 

So despite squalene being the prime suspect for Gulf War Syndrome for many years, Big Pharma has looked into this and determined this was a false alarm.  GWS was either a widely experienced mirage, or perhaps some other mystery substance these folks were exposed to during the war that could not be elucidated, despite many years of research into the cause of the syndrome.  

[lancebr]

So do any of the Covid vaccines that are being produced use Recombinant technology?

 

The flu vaccine I usually get is recombinant technology and it is one of the few

that does not have the following:

 

• No eggs
• No gelatin
• No adjuvants
• No antibiotics
• No formaldehyde
• No thimerosal/mercury
• No aluminum
• No preservatives
• No latex

Edited by lancebr, 27 November 2020 - 01:46 AM.

[smithx]

My favorite theoretically is Novavax because it's just a ball of spike protein: no virus, no mRNA, should be much reduced chances of auto-immune diseases (probably) which is my main worry about mRNA vaccines.

 

But so far no Phase III results from Novavax, so we don't know how well it works. Phase II indicated that it stimulated a massive antibody response though, so it *should* be very effective.

 

 

[Dorian Grey]

Doh!  AstraZeneca gets dinged again.  

 

https://www.yahoo.co...-170941401.html

 

India regulators probe alleged AstraZeneca shot reaction, trial continues

 

"A 40-year-old man said in a complaint seen by Reuters that he had suffered serious "neurological and psychological" symptoms after receiving the vaccine in a trial being run by the British drugmaker's partner Serum Institute of India (SII)."

 

"Law firm N.G.R. Prasad & R. Rajaram Advocates sent the complaint by the unnamed volunteer, who is seeking 50 million rupees ($676,288) in compensation and a suspension of testing, manufacturing and distribution of the vaccine, to ICMR, SII, AstraZeneca and the Drugs Controller General of India."

 

"While the Serum Institute of India is sympathetic with the volunteer's medical condition, there's absolutely no correlation with the vaccine trial," SII said.  "(The) volunteer was specifically informed by the medical team that the complications he suffered were independent of the vaccine trial he underwent," it added"

 

-----------------------------

 

It's all in your head mate, now go away please!  

 

As noted in earlier post, the AZ vaccine has previously been associated with an MS (multiple sclerosis) flare attributed to previously undiagnosed disease and a halt in the trial due to one incidence of transverse myelitis.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 30 November 2020 - 05:55 AM.

[ymc]

Based on my understanding, combining the criteria of effectiveness, safety, ease of delivery and cost, the ranking is:

 

Moderna > Pfizer >> AstraZeneca

[Dorian Grey]

Based on my understanding, combining the criteria of effectiveness, safety, ease of delivery and cost, the ranking is:

 

Moderna > Pfizer >> AstraZeneca

 

I'm warming up to the mRNA vaccines as combined Moderna & Pfizer trials have dosed a lot of patients (70K) without any autoimmune issues so far, and apparently they don't need adjuvants.  This said, the mRNA format is new, and full safety will not be determined for 2 years (looking for latent adverse events), which is the industry standard for vaccine development.  This is why they will need Emergency Use Authorization.  Don't really know if I want to be at the front of the line for a new vaccine format issued under EUA.  

 

One thing that concerns me is whether vaccines issued today, will affect performance or safety of second generation vaccines that may come along if the virus mutates.  Does the mRNA mechanism of action fade away?  Or might it interfere with future vaccine safety?  Might it be wise to go with a more traditional adjuvanted protein vaccine the first time around?  

 

I'm hoping someone will do my homework for me!  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 30 November 2020 - 03:43 PM.

[lancebr]

Here is an interesting article about mRNA vaccines that was published back in 2018:

 

https://www.nature.c...=deeplink#Sec17

 

Safety

 

"Several different mRNA vaccines have now been tested from phase I to IIb clinical studies and have been shown to be safe and reasonably well tolerated (Tables 2, 3). However, recent human trials have demonstrated moderate and in rare cases severe injection site or systemic reactions for different mRNA platforms^22,91. Potential safety concerns that are likely to be evaluated in future preclinical and clinical studies include local and systemic inflammation, the biodistribution and persistence of expressed immunogen, stimulation of auto-reactive antibodies and potential toxic effects of any non-native nucleotides and delivery system components. A possible concern could be that some mRNA-based vaccine platforms^54,166 induce potent type I interferon responses, which have been associated not only with inflammation but also potentially with autoimmunity^167,168. Thus, identification of individuals at an increased risk of autoimmune reactions before mRNA vaccination may allow reasonable precautions to be taken. Another potential safety issue could derive from the presence of extracellular RNA during mRNA vaccination. Extracellular naked RNA has been shown to increase the permeability of tightly packed endothelial cells and may thus contribute to oedema¹⁶⁹. Another study showed that extracellular RNA promoted blood coagulation and pathological thrombus formation¹⁷⁰. Safety will therefore need continued evaluation as different mRNA modalities and delivery systems are utilized for the first time in humans and are tested in larger patient populations."

 

"An article published by the National Center for Biotechnology Information, a division of the National Institutes of Health, said other risks include the bio-distribution and persistence of the induced immunogen expression; possible development of auto-reactive antibodies; and toxic effects of any non-native nucleotides and delivery system components."

 

And another article about the PEG in the vaccines that could potentially cause problems:

 

https://childrenshea...s-says-moderna/

 

"Moderna documents and publications indicate that the company is well aware of safety risks associated with PEG and other aspects of its mRNA technology but is more concerned with its bottom line."

Edited by lancebr, 01 December 2020 - 12:44 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

Excellent detective work lancebr.  Lots of leads to follow up on.  Novavax & AZ suddenly seem more appealing.  

[Zwergpirat]

 

 

Moderna has never brought any drug or vaccine to market before, so I'm partial to Pfizer (love their little blue pills too!)  

 

The "Pfizer vaccine" is actually the BioNtech/Pfizer/Fosun vaccine and BioNTech also has never brought any drug or vaccine to market before.. ;-)

[ymc]

https://www.dailymai...-use-UK-an.html

 

UK is now the first country to approve the Pfizer vaccine. Mass vaccination is expected to start next week.

[Dorian Grey]

https://www.dailymai...-use-UK-an.html

 

UK is now the first country to approve the Pfizer vaccine. Mass vaccination is expected to start next week.

 

Never was so much owed by so many to so few.  Godspeed, & best of British luck.  This ain't no flu shot!  

 

Saw the head of the FDA was called on the carpet at the white house to ask what the holdup was in the US.  Can't help but think they'd like to see how the first million jabs go in the UK before they give the green light for mass vaccination in the US.  If anything goes wrong, it will be a fine mess.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 02 December 2020 - 08:17 AM.

[calimero]

Until 2022-2023 ........ NONE of them. 

 

Coronavirus is an RNA virus, like HIV. Let's not look in 1959, when the first HIV infection was reported, but more recently in 1983-1986 when HIV was identified. Have passed more than 30 years and there is still no vaccine for HIV,  BUUUUUT in less than a year we have several Covid vaccines, many of them created by pharmaceutical companies that have not created any vaccine.

 

Let's not be scared and not become hypochondriacs. Do not let the fear of illness take precedence over rationality.

 

 

I don't like conspiracy theories, but I like Anthony Patch's expression „get people to demand a vaccine”, or Paul Boutin’s „Like a jammed smartphone, life was shut down, leaving us to wonder if it will reboot.” Oh Yes, life will reboot, but not like in our dreams. It's not hard to read between the lines: Covid-19, just „the open door” for The Great Reset.

[smithx]

Coronaviruses and HIV are both RNA viruses, but they are quite different.

 

They both have reverse transcriptase and convert their mRNA to DNA, but HIV then uses an integrase to jam that DNA into the host cell's chromosomes. Coronaviruses don't do this.

 

That's one reason that they are probably a lot easier to deal with: no reservoir of virus DNA hanging around in cells, that can't be easily eradicated.

 

This paper may be of interest:

 

Coronaviruses: An Overview of Their Replication and Pathogenesis

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4369385/

 

 

Until 2022-2023 ........ NONE of them. 

 

Coronavirus is an RNA virus, like HIV. Let's not look in 1959, when the first HIV infection was reported, but more recently in 1983-1986 when HIV was identified. Have passed more than 30 years and there is still no vaccine for HIV,  BUUUUUT in less than a year we have several Covid vaccines, many of them created by pharmaceutical companies that have not created any vaccine.

 

Let's not be scared and not become hypochondriacs. Do not let the fear of illness take precedence over rationality.

 

 

I don't like conspiracy theories, but I like Anthony Patch's expression „get people to demand a vaccine”, or Paul Boutin’s „Like a jammed smartphone, life was shut down, leaving us to wonder if it will reboot.” Oh Yes, life will reboot, but not like in our dreams. It's not hard to read between the lines: Covid-19, just „the open door” for The Great Reset.

 

[lancebr]

I wonder if there is any validity to these claims:

 

https://healthandmon...-sterilization/

[pamojja]

I wonder if there is any validity to these claims:

 

https://healthandmon...-sterilization/

 

The claim on that petition is:

 

It must be absolutely ruled out that a vaccine against SARS-CoV-2 could trigger an immune reaction against syncytin-1, as otherwise infertility of indefinite duration could result in vaccinated women.

 

And it must absolutely be ruled out, before bringing a product with such potential to the market.

Edited by pamojja, 03 December 2020 - 08:32 AM.

[ymc]

I wonder if there is any validity to these claims:

 

https://healthandmon...-sterilization/

 

This is garbage. 

 

The sequences of Coronavirus' Spike protein and this syncytin-1 protein are both public information.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...tein/1796318598

https://www.ncbi.nlm...rotein/48949851

 

They are completely different. There is no way an autoimmune reaction can be triggered.

[Dorian Grey]

Looks like they are insisting everyone get the vaccines, even if they've already survived COVID & developed natural immunity?  

 

https://www.yahoo.co...-233950012.html

 

Already had Covid? Here's what to know about getting vaccinated

 

"Public health officials hope to vaccinate as many people as possible to turn the tide of the coronavirus pandemic once a vaccine becomes available — even those who have already recovered from Covid-19.  And while it isn't yet known how the immune systems of Covid-19 survivors respond to a vaccine — particularly among coronavirus "long-haulers," whose symptoms linger weeks and months after their diagnoses — there is likely to be little risk in getting the shot"

 

"The general recommendation is to get the vaccine, even if you were previously infected," said Dr. David Thomas, a professor of medicine and director of the infectious diseases division at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. "There are some nuanced questions that we don't have the answer to yet, but from what we know now, it's the right call to get the vaccine."

 

---------------------------

 

I've read virtually all of the vaccine safety trial subjects were tested for (lack of) antibodies in order to be eligible for the trials (the linked story contradicts this), so this means there has been little to no safety investigation regarding vaccinating patients who've already developed natural immunity through surviving the disease.  Even the long-haulers, suffering lingering knock-on effects will be getting the jab.  I guess it would be problematic to check all patients for antibodies before giving the vaccine, but can't help but see some red flags here.  Seems like a recipe for autoimmune chaos.  Resistance is futile...  You will be vaccinated!  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 03 December 2020 - 05:10 PM.

[calimero]

 Resistance is futile...  You will be vaccinated!  

  

an "interesting" period   

 

You don't want to be vaccinated? Stay calm ........ resistance is futile. Sooner or later, you will be vaccinated. 

Until then, smile, be happy, Christmas is coming. 

[Daniel Cooper]

Looks like they are insisting everyone get the vaccines, even if they've already survived COVID & developed natural immunity?  

 

 

 

I suppose it is a big question mark as to how robust and how long natural immunity after covid infection will last.  We've heard estimates of only a few months on the low end. It's unclear to me if that is real or sensationalist reporting by the media. I confess to not have dug deeply into those studies.

 

Exposure to the real virus will cause the body to develop a wide spectrum of different antibodies.  But, the mRNA vaccines should create much more spike protein that a natural infection would cause so presumably you'll develop a substantially more robust immune response to spike protein only.

[Gal220]

Lots of discussion about the new fangled vaccine at Derek Lowes blog

 

See the comments section

 

I think Chemist’s point is that the lipid nanoparticles may have too broad a tropism, far broader even than attenuated virus vaccines (which are still limited to the tropism of the wild-type virus), and thus could pose a uniquely high safety hazard due to cytotoxic attack on the broad cellular range that uptakes the LNPs. Since the LNPs would enter cells via endocytosis, the SARS-CoV-2 epitopes would be expressed on MHC-1 molecules, making them targets of cytotoxic CD8 lymphocytes, attacking a much greater range of cells than any previous vaccine modality. This is concerning in general, but it’s a nightmare scenario if the vaccines are crossing the blood-brain barrier and endocytosing into e.g. oligodendrocytes (multiple sclerosis risk) or motor neurons (which could possibly cause an ALS-type picture). No other vaccine has this broad tropism. That is THE major safety concern here — been working on submitting a comprehensive question to Derek about this very topic.

 

I would wait for the traditional vaccine.

[zorba990]

Ugh. Been trying to convince some family to delay as the tissue penetration questions are particularly concerning. In the discussion linked there seems to be an amount of cavalier attitude, among some replies, in terms of how IM injections work. Even in contrast to textbook definition.

[zorba990]

Read it while you can:

https://prezi.com/i/...-following-cvv/

[Daniel Cooper]

Read it while you can:

https://prezi.com/i/...-following-cvv/

 

She doesn't say she lost consciousness yet claims to have had CPR done on her.

 

That seems odd to me.

 

Or perhaps I've mis-read her statement. Claims to have been unresponsive at some point.

 

Still, you don't normally start administering CPR unless someone has no pulse and it normally requires some intervention to re-establish heart rate. 

 

 

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 25 January 2021 - 07:52 PM.