33 replies to this topic

[Michael Lustgarten]

Red blood cells (RBC) are the most abundant cell type in the human body. I've tracked my RBC levels in conjunction with diet since 2015, and with the goal of reversing the age-related decline for RBCs, which dietary components have the strongest correlation with RBCs?

 

[albedo]

Thank you Michael. Couple of comments:

1. I caution about interpreting longitudinal individual vs cross section population data. E.g. from my data I am at ~4.8 at 65 from fit over ~25 years (average 4.97) vs ~4.3 in Wang 2017, basically having at 65 the same value as at 20 in the paper.
2. There is large dispersion in both your and my data set.
3. Why yogurt, mechanistically?
4. There should be a cross sectional study between RBC and dairy intake to well determine correlations
5. Did not check plasma osmolarity as that is new to me, intriguing. I can do it as I have the row data.

[Michael Lustgarten]

 

Thank you Michael. Couple of comments:

1. I caution about interpreting longitudinal individual vs cross section population data. E.g. from my data I am at ~4.8 at 65 from fit over ~25 years (average 4.97) vs ~4.3 in Wang 2017, basically having at 65 the same value as at 20 in the paper.
2. There is large dispersion in both your and my data set.
3. Why yogurt, mechanistically?
4. There should be a cross sectional study between RBC and dairy intake to well determine correlations
5. Did not check plasma osmolarity as that is new to me, intriguing. I can do it as I have the row data.

 

 

Using data from large epidemiological studies, I almost always introduce age-related changes for each biomarker in the videos to get a sense for what happens during aging. Where it exists, I also try to introduce data for risk of death for all causes, and together, one can have a sense for what portion of the reference range is optimal. From those data, higher RBCs are found in youth, but in contrast, lower levels, as found in anemia, are associated with an increased all-cause mortality risk.

In terms of your data being similar to mine, it doesn't have to be, we can all respond differently to different stimuli (diet, exercise, supplements, etc), thereby resulting in different levels of outcome variables. That said, your 4.8 value at 65y , and your 25y average is great!

In terms of of yogurt's mechanism, as I mentioned in the video, the best guess is Lactobacillus. I had 3 gut microbiome tests that revealed 0 Lactobacillus during the time that I didn't consume any yogurt, and I'm betting that daily yogurt intake corrected that deficiency. However, I haven't tested my microbiome since that to confirm this hypothesis. Correcting microbiome-related deficiencies of particular species can impact systemic physiology-for ex., in this paper, rescue of Lactobacillus deficiency in this mouse model increased muscle mass (https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4914249/). More specifically, there's data that Lactobacillus can increase testosterone, which increases hematocrit, but I don't have testosterone data to confirm that, either. I usually don't make such great leaps with my hypotheses, which is why I mentioned in the video that if anyone had a potential alternative mechanism, to leave a comment!

I agree that there should be cross-sectional studies for the correlation for yogurt with RBCs, however, a PubMed search only yields 2 papers (https://pubmed.ncbi....t=date&size=200), neither of which reported that correlation.

[pamojja]

I had 3 gut microbiome tests that revealed 0 Lactobacillus during the time that I didn't consume any yogurt, and I'm betting that daily yogurt intake corrected that deficiency. However, I haven't tested my microbiome since that to confirm this hypothesis.

I had my only ubiome test in 2017. Already for many years consumed daily yogurt, almost daily sauerkraut, natto, kimchi and pickles. However: 0 Lacto- or Bifido despite.

However, at 94th percentile very high diversity.

Edited by pamojja, 17 February 2021 - 12:16 PM.

[albedo]

Thank you Michael for your reply (as well as for an amazing work).

Very intriguing the point on microbiota: sometime I ask myself who is hosting who.... ;-)

[albedo]

There should be a correlation and a similar decline w age as for RBC also for hemoglobin. I am increasing my fast pace and relatively high altitude walking and oxigenation, I recollect an MD telling me hemoglobin peaking at ~3 hours walking but did not research on this. Feed here any study you might have on this, tks.

[albedo]

There should be a correlation and a similar decline w age as for RBC also for hemoglobin....

It looks so at least on my data: a scatter plot of hemoglobin vs RBC shows a r=0.80 in a linear regression.

 

[Michael Lustgarten]

For me, the correlation for hemoglobin with RBCs is a bit higher, 0.9, in 25 blood tests since 2015.

[albedo]

For me, the correlation for hemoglobin with RBCs is a bit higher, 0.9, in 25 blood tests since 2015.

Interesting, mine is for 26 tests but spread 26 years.

 

[albedo]

For me, the correlation for hemoglobin with RBCs is a bit higher, 0.9, in 25 blood tests since 2015.

For both of us a high correlation would maybe mean both RBC and hemoglobin are proxy of each other and we might look at intervention targeted to optimize both. Hemoglobin is very well studied too due to many links with aging and disease occurrence. Maybe a subject for your next video too ;-)

 

[albedo]

For both of us a high correlation would maybe mean both RBC and hemoglobin are proxy of each other and we might look at intervention targeted to optimize both. Hemoglobin is very well studied too due to many links with aging and disease occurrence. Maybe a subject for your next video too ;-)

 

UAA (Unexplained Anemia of Aging) is a concern which prompted a trial by BioAge. I know them and I like their approach to age related diseases. I think this is important. 

 

Maybe we should also think about natural approaches to UAA acting on RBC/hemoglobin expanding on this thread and Michael's insight, any idea?

 

https://www.business...xplained-Anemia

https://bioagelabs.c...x.html#pipeline

https://bioagelabs.c...ndex.html#about

 

[albedo]

I wonder about if/how the typical (WHO) cut off for hemoglobin at 130 g/l accounts for age going from elderly (say 60+) to much older. In other world you might have unnecessary interventions for the much older by misdiagnosing anemia if you do not account for age changes in the reference intervals of the biomarker.

https://doi.org/10.1...tion-2010.1.271

Edited by albedo, 26 February 2021 - 09:29 AM.

[albedo]

BTW, I have been fighting against high serum ferritin and now be at what I consider an acceptable <=100 ng/ml level (also for good immunity) mostly suing a chelator (IP6) but did not find correlation with my hemoglobin longitudinal data.

[albedo]

A note of caution in terms of calorie, protein and micronutrients intake, mostly if you are practicing some form of fasting, IMHO

Bianchi VE. Role of nutrition on anemia in elderly. Clinical Nutrition ESPEN. 2016;11:e1-e11.

 anemia - metabolism.PNG   373.43KB   0 downloads

Edited by albedo, 26 February 2021 - 02:49 PM.

[albedo]

A note of caution in terms of calorie, protein and micronutrients intake, mostly if you are practicing some form of fasting, IMHO

Bianchi VE. Role of nutrition on anemia in elderly. Clinical Nutrition ESPEN. 2016;11:e1-e11.

anemia - metabolism.PNG

 

Fasting does seem lowering RBC and Hemoglobin even when removing chronic diseases such as those in the kidneys (CKD) and lungs (COPD):

 

1: Dewanti L, Watanabe C, Sulistiawati, Ohtsuka R. Unexpected changes in blood
pressure and hematological parameters among fasting and nonfasting workers
during Ramadan in Indonesia. Eur J Clin Nutr. 2006 Jul;60(7):877-81. doi:
10.1038/sj.ejcn.1602393. Epub 2006 Feb 8. PMID: 16489329.

2: Al Wakeel JS. Kidney function and metabolic profile of chronic kidney disease
and hemodialysis patients during Ramadan fasting. Iran J Kidney Dis. 2014
Jul;8(4):321-8. PMID: 25001139.

3: Rejeb H, Ben Khelifa M, Ben Abdallah J, Mrad S, Ben Rejeb M, Hayouni A,
Benzarti M, Limem K, Kortas M, Rouatbi S, Ben Saad H. The Effects of Ramadan-
Fasting (RF) on Inflammatory and Hematological Indices of Stable Chronic
Obstructive Pulmonary Disease (COPD) Male Patients: A Pilot Study. Am J Mens
Health. 2018 Nov;12(6):2089-2103. doi: 10.1177/1557988318794304. Epub 2018 Aug
17. PMID: 30117367; PMCID: PMC6199458.
 

Edited by albedo, 27 February 2021 - 04:41 PM.

[Oakman]

It's been interesting reading both of your comments about RBC and Hemo vs. age and dietary interventions. Seems you are searching for a reason for your individual values, without too much to go on.

 

Michael, perhaps doing a poll (of values vs. age vs diet items) would offer insights, and at least give some ranges for those of us trying various longevity interventions (and have blood tests). Maybe help re:dairy useage or any other dietary theories.

 

For example, I'm perplexed at my own recent values RBC 4.82 10*12/L; Hemo 15.9 g/dL. For my age they don't match the graphs, not even close. I do things I feel are longevity based, but would be helpful to get a feel for which actually are working?

 

 

 

 

[Michael Lustgarten]

To figure out what's impacting your RBCs, you'd have to carefully track your diet in conjunction with blood testing. For me, My RBCs didn't top ~4.8 until I added yogurt, and then it hasn't been lower than 4.9 since, so that's the most likely candidate, at least for me.

[Heisok]

History. Hopefully the image will post.

 

Way of eating, Ketogenic with mostly Grass Fed sourced meat, and Tallow from Grass Fed..../

 

2011 to 2020 currently 61 years

Attached Files

•  Blood CBC _2020-07-06 Test Results.png   38.9KB   0 downloads

Edited by Heisok, 28 February 2021 - 11:18 PM.

[Phoebus]

IN this study there was no association between RBC and eating yogurt 

 

https://academic.oup...7/1492S/4722598

 

 

 

The weight of the subjects remained stable, increasing <5% in all groups; there was no difference among groups over time as assessed by repeated measures ANOVA. Blood chemistry results showed that over the year, the group that was not eating yogurt experienced a steady decrease in HDL cholesterol (9.2%). The group eating the live-active cultured yogurt experienced a slight decrease in HDL, but it did not reach a level of significance. The heat-killed yogurt group actually experienced a slight increase in HDL cholesterol over the course of the year. Other chemistry parameters were similar among the groups, with yogurt consumption having no apparent influence. There were no differences in the complete blood count data among groups.

 

[Phoebus]

History. Hopefully the image will post.

 

Way of eating, Ketogenic with mostly Grass Fed sourced meat, and Tallow from Grass Fed..../

 

2011 to 2020 currently 61 years

 

 

According to that your RBC have gone down in this time period 

 

Also your MCV is inching up towards too high 

[Phoebus]

this study claims Moringa Oleifera increases RBC 

 

https://oer.unimed.e...-in-Humans-.pdf

[Phoebus]

Amla (Emblica officinalis) protected RBC from ROS in this study

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/29064307/

[albedo]

To figure out what's impacting your RBCs, you'd have to carefully track your diet in conjunction with blood testing....

Wonder if you ever considered an AI assisted tool for that (diet tracking) available in your region. I am considering this one since sometime already but never committed (bad me ...)

https://www.foodandyou.ch/en

[Michael Lustgarten]

IN this study there was no association between RBC and eating yogurt 

 

https://academic.oup...7/1492S/4722598

 

There could be a threshold effect-I've been eating no less than ~250g/day, they used 200g/d in the study. Also, the study didn't say if subjects were excluded if they were previously eating yogurt, then continued into the study. In my case, I wasn't eating it at all, for years.

 

Alternatively, there's evidence in rabbits that Lactobacillus increases RBC counts:

https://www.research...tors_in_Rabbits

 

[Michael Lustgarten]

Wonder if you ever considered an AI assisted tool for that (diet tracking) available in your region. I am considering this one since sometime already but never committed (bad me ...)

https://www.foodandyou.ch/en

 

I definitely have considered that, and imo that's a billion $ approach. Although there are a few papers that have used AI or ML to predict the glucose or TG response to food, I've yet to see a paper where they can predict the whole diet composition based on a composite of biomarkers (like Phenotypic Age). I'm in talks with a company to start to set that up, but it isn't going to be easy. If it was, someone would've done it already and published the method.

[albedo]

BTW, I have been fighting against high serum ferritin and now be at what I consider an acceptable <=100 ng/ml level (also for good immunity) mostly suing a chelator (IP6) but did not find correlation with my hemoglobin longitudinal data.

 

Incidentally on IP6 / iron :

 

Bhowmik A et al, Inositol hexa phosphoric acid (phytic acid), a nutraceuticals, attenuates iron-induced oxidative stress and alleviates liver injury in iron overloaded mice. Biomed Pharmacother. 2017 Mar;87:443-450. doi: 10.1016/j.biopha.2016.12.125. Epub 2017 Jan 6. PMID: 28068635.

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/28068635/

 

 

[albedo]

From last Bill Faloon's complete blood tests (as he posted in the Age Reversal Network mail list).

 

Again, I wonder about the intermittent fasting impact on the RBC and hemoglobin, both in the low of the reference range. I expected a bit this, as also in my case, though of course anecdotal and might also be due to existing pathology:

 

"...I also practice time-restricted eating so that I fast for 16-18 hours most days. I also practice time-restricted eating so that I fast for 16-18 hours most days. The pancytopenia that I’ve battled since before 2006 has normalized over the past year."

 

 Faloon 3 2021.PNG   20.11KB   1 downloads

 Faloon blood tests march 2021.pdf   377.58KB   5 downloads

Edited by albedo, 21 March 2021 - 12:24 PM.

[Michael Lustgarten]

I like looking at others' blood tests! Separately, it looks like Faloon is on a statin, LDL = 39, his lymphoctes are borderline low (1.1), and monocytes relatively high (13%).

[Rocket]

I would caution anyone older increasing their rbc numbers. You run the risk of blood clots and all their horrible effects on health that we are all aware of.

That said, simply injecting a trt dose of 100mg testosterone will most definitely raise rbc levels so high you will need to donate at the red cross routinely.

Its your health and if want to risk the health risks which are very real, then its your body. Unless you have clinically low numbers and health effects of low rbc values, I would leave it alone. If you have a clinical issue then a doctor is in order.... But there seems to be a common thread on this forum of a mentality of avoiding doctors and treating ailments by eliminating sugar or taking megadoses of zinc and things like that.

Edited by Rocket, 24 March 2021 - 01:15 AM.

[albedo]

Good point Rocket and agree but then I wonder how I would explain the concomitant increase of my T and free T?