7 replies to this topic

[Mr Spock]

Hi, I've been having episodes of breathlessness for several weeks,not connected to exertion/exercise, and wondering what's causing it.

 

Some background -

66 yr old male

non-smoker

68kilos.

 

Diagnosed condtions-

High BP- on ramipril

vericose veins

BPH

Recently had tonsils infected- could not complete antibiotics course due to side effects.

 

Occasionally get dysbosis/bloating- have been given Lansprazole 30mg, but avoid it due to side effects if I can;but have restarted as GP said it could cause it.

 

Had angina before high BP diagnosis;this stopped with ramipril 2.5mg X 2.

 

GP said it could be heart related-waiting to see him tomorrow.

 

Markers:

BP generally around 130/ 80

HR 75 to 85 (at most)

 

Blood sugar 5.1nmol/L fasting

 

Peak Flow Meter range- 560 to 600 ( GP says not asthma).

 

 

I don't think its Covid- no high temp ( 36.7 C) no other covid symptoms,cough ,sore throat,loss of smell/taste etc;

 

Various blood work, all in in range last time,but awaiting results for draw done 2 days ago.

 

Any sugestions as to what it could be? And what tests should I get ( waiting for x-ray appt. in March!) ?

 

TIA

[Dorian Grey]

Does this occur during sleep?  Last year I experienced some rather distressing episodes of "air hunger" that would occur during sleep.  I'd wake up feeling hypoxic, and the strange thing was, even breathing deeply for several minutes did not seem to alleviate the sensation of not getting enough air.  

 

Thought I must be experiencing sleep apnea, but sometimes the air hunger would occur while awake.  It about drove me to madness til I discovered thiamine deficiency was associated with air hunger. 

 

https://www.hormones...ine-deficiency/

 

Thought it might be a shot in the dark, but started taking thiamine & benfotiamine & my issue resolved.  

 

Turns out I was actually consuming several different "anti-thiamines", frequently with meals, which blocks absorption and/or binds thiamine to an unusable form.  

 

Look Here: http://helid.digicol...s2900e/8.2.html

 

Coffee, tea, polyphenols, tannic acid & sulfites in red wine?  I was consuming them all.  Taking Curcumin & Quercetin supplements with meals too.  I also tipple a bit of alcohol every evening, & apparently alcohol does a double whammy of both inhibiting absorption, and burning through substantial amounts of thiamine during alcohol metabolism.  Antacids and PPI (proton pump inhibitor meds) also are known to inhibit thiamine absorption and result in deficiency.  

 

Did some research, & discovered even if you're supplementing B-Complex and/or thiamine, the body only absorbs small amounts at a given meal or time, and any anti-thiamines will completely block the process if you're taking your supplement along with anti-thiamine factors in meals.  

 

The three main forms of supplemental thiamine are: Thiamine Mononitrate, which is what is found in fortified food & most supplements, Thiamine HCL (hydrochloride) which I've read is supposed to be better absorbed than T-mononitrate; and Benfotiamine, which is a fat soluble synthetic thiamine analog.  

 

I found a thiamine HCL supplement (NOW Brand), and started taking this on an empty stomach, first thing in the morning, an hour or so before starting in with my anti-thiamine coffee/tea. Got some low dose benfotiamine, and started taking this with meals (fat soluble).  Have been trying to find out if benfotiamine is affected by anti-thiamines, as I typically have ice tea with meals and coffee after, but haven't found any info on benfotiamine & anti-thiamines.  I try to take my benfotiamine early during meals and hold off on the tea/coffee as long as I can.  

 

I really didn't want to give up my coffee, Ice tea, or evening tipple, but I switched from red wine (polyphenols & sulfite anti-thiamines) to Gin & Tonic (light, low sugar tonic); and punted on my curcumin & quercetin supplements.  

 

Recurring episodes of nocturnal air hunger VANISHED as mysteriously as it had came!  Don't know if this might be what is going on with you, but it might be worth a try.  More on this here:

Edited by Dorian Grey, 25 February 2021 - 04:50 PM.

[Mr Spock]

Hi Dorian,

Thank you, that's very enlightening.

 

It happens any time of the day,including night time. I am going to limit the things you've mentioned;

 

This morning,I woke to go to the bathroom,and it slowly got worse; but when I sat up and put my head in my knees, it subsided pretty quickly.

 

I have suffered from GERD and been on PPI's in the past; but recently have been experiencing bloating,and thought prehaps that's causing it.The video does say that B1 deficiency causes low stomach acid.

 

"and punted on my curcumin & quercetin"- sorry I don't understand - do you mean you took a chance and carried on taking these?

 

 

[Dorian Grey]

No, I've not been taking my curcumin & quercetin since you really need to take them with food, & they are both potent anti-thiamines.  

 

Interesting you needed to put your head between your knees to recover.  I trust you saw in the video where the doc talked about POTS (pots positional orthostatic tachycardia syndrome).  I recall my heart would race when I got up in the night to use the toilet.  Sometimes felt like I was down-rushing towards a faint.  

 

I also became very sensitive to bright sunlight.  Couldn't drive without good sun glasses.  All gone now that I've fixed my thiamine deficiency.  Interesting that stomach acid is helpful with absorption.  Most of us have substantially less stomach acid as we reach senior years, even if we're not on a PPI.  Forgot to mention, magnesium is also important as it is required to convert thiamine into its usable forms (sorry I don't have a link).  Low stomach acid means poor thiamine absorption as well as poor mineral (magnesium) absorption.  A bad combination.  

 

You should see very rapid results, if this is what's going on, & you control anti-thiamines and do some supplementation.  Multiple small doses are much better than one or two large doses per day.  As I mentioned above, you only absorb a couple of milligrams of thiamine per meal or dose, no mater how big the dose is. 

 

I got side-tracked initially, as I was taking a B-Complex that said it provided 3000% of the daily requirement for thiamine.  How could I possibly be deficient?  Turns out I was taking it with my morning tea at breakfast.  Tannins & polyphenols in the tea were preventing any benefit.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 25 February 2021 - 08:48 PM.

[pamojja]

Did some research, & discovered even if you're supplementing B-Complex and/or thiamine, the body only absorbs small amounts at a given meal or time, and any anti-thiamines will completely block the process if you're taking your supplement along with anti-thiamine factors in meals.

Was also mistaken by a textbook which reports one study showing only about 5mg is absorbed with any oral thiamine dose. However, that actually isn't true: https://bmcclinpharm.../1472-6904-12-4

I too take shitloads of 'anti-thiamines', but experience no symptoms of thiamin-deficiency. Actually do have a diagnosis of COPD1, but completely asymptomatic since its diagnosis 8 years ago (due to a chronic bronchitis).

And there are reports of really high doses of thiamin making a difference, like for example: https://www.prohealt...032?B1=EP121014

So one can have all the tannins, polyphenols and flavonoids along with thiamin at sufficient high doses to overwhelm these anti-thiamines.

Edited by pamojja, 25 February 2021 - 10:14 PM.

[Mr Spock]

I have b-complex that includes 75mg of thiamine HCL and take the LEF 2 per day tabs,which has I believe around 85mg- so most of it goes down the pan.

 

An easier way to obtain magnesium is by magnesium water. Either using Milk of Magnesia,without additives,or as I do, magnesium hydroxide powder and simply adding a teaspoon per litre to seltzer water. This produces about 860mg of elemental Mg per litre.Much more absorbable than tablets and cheaper.

 

I have kept off most of my daily supps for about 24 hrs and symptoms are quite a bit less than yesterday; will take the B-complex with my NDT for my thyroid early in the morning as its supposed to be helpful.

[Mr Spock]

So saw the GP today and he thinks its heart related and prescribed Bisoprolol 1.25mg.

 

ECG and FBC have come back "normal". BP is around 125/75 and HR around 75. 

 

Normally  walk for 30 minutes, but earlier went for a walk and had to come back after 10 minutes as got breathless,and bloating. 

 

I'm wondering if this Heart failure or what? GP didn't say anything or to arrange an echo.

 

I had CT angiography about a year ago and had 0 agatston score.

 

But I'm sub-clinically hypothyroid- would that have anything to do with it?

[StevesPetMacaque]

Bloating? Or edema? Could be low potassium, too.

To add to the recommendations above, allithiamine (TTFD, technically) and sulbutiamine are other options. I know sulbutiamine is available in France; don't know what its legal status in UK is.

And I do find that thiamine seems to increase my need for supplemental magnesium; the latter is a cofactor for several of the reactions involving the former.

Edited by StevesPetMacaque, 27 February 2021 - 08:32 PM.