75 replies to this topic

[Hip]

How on earth do you arrive at such a preposterous view of the BBC. There has only ever been one head of the BBC who wasn't known to be a Tory. Most of the staff, when they leave for other jobs, turn out to be Tories or worse. The nonsense view that the BBC is "liberal left", is put out by the overwhelmingly Tory press in the UK to allow the Tory government to push it even further to the right. I find it hard to believe you are actually in the UK rather than somewhere politically absurd like Texas.

 

Most academic research shows the BBC to be liberal. If you want to understand what a right wing news station is, have a look at Fox News. 

 

 

I don't consider liberal to be truly left. Liberals are the highly educated intellectual elite, typically from a privileged middle class background. Proper left wing is socialist, or at least social democracy (the latter I would like to see more of in the UK). Liberals are the privileged elite, they are not working class socialists.

 

I live in London, and am fully aware of the Islington liberal set, who dominate the BBC. BBC values reflect Islington values. The BBC do not properly represent the nation because of their London-centric geography, and they do not properly represent the working classes, because liberals don't care that much about the working man and women, nor do they understand the working classes. Liberals have their own intellectual university-educated interests which differ markedly from the interests of the working class.

 

Not only do liberals have inordinate influence at the BBC, but liberals have totally infiltrated and taken over the Labour party. This occurred during the Tony Blair era. Labour used to be socialist, but now Labour is mostly liberal. Labour are now more interested in political correctness issues and feminism, gay and transgender rights than the plight of the working classes. So Labour no longer represent the working classes, in the way they used to 30 years ago when they were a socialist party.

 

Indeed, liberal-infiltrated Labour are so out of touch with the working classes, that these working classes have abandoned Labour in droves, voting instead for right-wing populist parties, who they feel better represent their needs. This exodus from Labour to the right-wing populism is a direct result of Labour abandoning its socialist roots. And this has not just happened in the UK, but all over Europe, where left wing parties have become less socialist and more liberal. 

 

If you want to understand how right-wing populism has arisen in Europe, look no further than the liberals, who infiltrated and took over the socialist parties of Europe, making these parties much less relevant to the working classes.

Edited by Hip, 19 April 2021 - 05:33 PM.

[johnross47]

I have obviously misunderstood you. I agree entirely with your expanded analysis. I have become used to seeing words like "liberal" being horribly misused on USA based sites because of the destruction of meaning and utter perversion of language that has been pushed by the Republicans. (to the point that Joe Biden can be called a communist.)

 

I have spent most of my life in Scotland and the view of the BBC in Scotland is like yours but amplified by their English bias. For many years the only mention of the SNP for example, was in the form of attacks by the English based mainstream parties, despite the majorities the SNP achieve in elections. I now live in Spain where they at least prosecute and jail politicians who are as corrupt as Boris Johnson and his cabinet of fiddling little crooks.

Edited by johnross47, 19 April 2021 - 07:00 PM.

[Hip]

I have obviously misunderstood you. I agree entirely with your expanded analysis. I have become used to seeing words like "liberal" being horribly misused on USA based sites because of the destruction of meaning and utter perversion of language that has been pushed by the Republicans. (to the point that Joe Biden can be called a communist.)

 

I have spent most of my life in Scotland and the view of the BBC in Scotland is like yours but amplified by their English bias. For many years the only mention of the SNP for example, was in the form of attacks by the English based mainstream parties, despite the majorities the SNP achieve in elections. I now live in Spain where they at least prosecute and jail politicians who are as corrupt as Boris Johnson and his cabinet of fiddling little crooks.

 

Although by personality I would probably fit into the liberal category, I am not actually political partisan, and I think all political parties have their good and bad points. I think democracy itself is the best form of government, where all political parties are involved.

 

I feel that Western society has currently swung a bit too far in the liberal direction, while loosing ground in both the social democracy / socialist areas as well as the right wing. So to rebalance, we need more social democracy values, as well as more right wing values (I like right wing populism more than traditional elitist right wing), and a bit less of the liberal values. Obviously social democracy and right wing are opposites in most respects, but they have one thing in common:

 

Both right wing and social democracy values focus more on duty to country or to society, and on social or family responsibilities. Whereas liberal values in their extreme seem to allow people so much personal freedom that people become and "me, me, me" oriented, just doing whatever they want, like spoilt children given everything, and not considering their responsibilities to a wider society. We all enjoy personal freedom, and it is a good thing, but too much of it does not lead to solid character formation, nor social responsibility. 

Edited by Hip, 20 April 2021 - 02:36 PM.

[johnross47]

I certainly couldn't support right wing populism; that's where you get monsters like Trump and disastrous racist stupidity like Brexit.

[Hip]

I certainly couldn't support right wing populism; that's where you get monsters like Trump and disastrous racist stupidity like Brexit.

 

Well, my argument to liberals is if you don't like right wing populism, why didn't you look after the working classes better?

 

If liberals had treated the working classes as fairly and nicely as they treat feminists, gays, the transgendered, the disabled, etc, the working classes would have had nothing to complain about, and would have had no need to vote right wing.

 

It was only out of sheer desperation that the working classes abandoned the left wing which had dropped socialism, and started voting for right wing populist parties. This sheer desperation is something that liberals should heed, but they never do, because liberals are too wrapped up in championing transgender rights and the like to consider the working man. University-educated intellectual liberals have got little in common with the working man, and do not understand the plight of the working classes. 

 

 

How has liberalism screwed over the working man? Well liberal values promote immigration and multiculturalism, which means waves of immigrants arrive and offer to do the same job for half the wages of an indigenous working class person. That's great news for super-wealthy, who get cheap workers. But it erodes the income and the quality of life of the working classes.

 

It's not however just economic factors the working classes object to: in any country the working classes do not like their own culture to be replaced with an impersonal multiculturalism. The working classes want to live by their own culture, not someone else's culture, or by a multicultural mix, which in the end equates to no culture at all, just cold economic functionality. There is more to life than cold economic functionality.

 

But as soon as the working classes complain about immigration and multiculturalism, liberals start playing their usual dirty tricks, and accuse the working classes of racism. But this simply incorrect: being racist means prejudice against a person of a particular race. But the working classes are in general not prejudiced against any race, but many dislike to have their own culture diluted by a foreign culture, a situation which has been forced on them. Wanting to maintain your own culture is not racist, no matter what liberals say.

 

I am not working class, I come from a middle class background. But I am aware of the conditions of the working classes, and I think they have been treated unfairly, and in recent decades have lost that all-important political representation, once liberals took over the show, and turned socialist parties into liberal ones.

 

If you are working class and want to fight back against liberal impositions like immigration and multiculturalism, it is no good voting for left wing parties, because these have been infiltrated by liberals. Thus your only recourse in the present climate is the right wing populist parties. The Tory Party are aware of this wave of right wing populist sentiment, and have positioned themselves as populist in order to capture this vote, which they did quite successfully. But the Tory Party know that if they let down the working classes who voted for them, then next election they will not get their vote again.

 

I agree that right wing populism can lead to reckless demagogues being voted in. Indeed, Hitler got into power on a wave of such populism, in a time where there was great economic hardship in Germany. Economic hardship creates desperation, and desperate people will vote for anyone who promises to deliver better conditions. This is what history tells up.

 

But seems that liberals never learn from history, because they let the working classes become desperate, thus creating the conditions where these working classes started listening to the right wing demagogues. This is why I blame liberals for Trump, and blame liberals for Farage.

 

Lesson number 1 from history: do not let any segment of your population get into desperation if you want to maintain social stability and sensible government.

Edited by Hip, 20 April 2021 - 11:01 PM.

[pamojja]

Here the alledgedly so sophisticated recruitment techniques:

https://www.dis-info.../12-truths.html

Vaccine makers (as well as health care professionals and practices who administer vaccines) have ZERO LEGAL LIABILITY for injuries or deaths caused by vaccines per the 1986 National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act (NCVIA).

The NCVIA was in response to failing vaccine manufacturers overrun with injury and death lawsuits from vaccines, namely DPT.

The United States Supreme Court declared vaccines to be “unavoidably unsafe.” The Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) has awarded MORE THAN $4,000,000,000 to date, accounting for only a fraction of cases filed and injuries reported.

Conflict of Interest: The vaccine manufacturers, themselves, are in charge of overseeing the safety studies. They have ZERO incentive to call out any safety issues.

Multiple vaccines contain human fetal cells (MRC-5 and WI-38) derived from abortions. The full health implications of the use of fetal cell lines in vaccines is unknown.

Vaccines contain carcinogenic, mutagenic and neurotoxic ingredients that have not been tested for impairment of fertility. There are no safety studies on synergistic toxicity.

There has been an increase of over 1,350% in vaccines given to U.S. children from 1962 to today. In lockstep with the increased vaccination schedule, there has been an increase in infant mortality, an explosion of chronic diseases and neurological issues, and an overall decline in the health of our children, especially evident in the last 30 years when the vaccine schedule spiked after liability was removed from vaccine manufacturers (see #1). All of this while under the watchful eye of our public health agencies.

Vaccine mandates violate bodily autonomy via coercion. Holding education and employment hostage to the consumption of a liability free pharmaceutical is not consent, it is coercion.

COVID shots do not meet the traditional definition of a vaccine. They utilize mRNA technology, never before used in humans. Some have reported testing positive for COVID after injection.

COVID shots are experimental (due to Emergency Use Authorization), having been tested on human subjects only since Fall 2020. They have not been FDA approved. The only way to invoke the EUA was to show that there were no other available safe treatments for COVID. We now know that safe and effective treatments were censored and smeared by authorities so they could maintain the emergency status for the vaccines.

COVID shots have not been shown to prevent disease in the recipient, nor to prevent transmission of infection, which is why the CDC states people still need to wear a mask and social distance.
​
As evidenced by the CDC reporting system, COVID vaccines may have caused deaths in some and severe injuries in many. Mainstream media has not been forthcoming with these reports.

Anyone up for the task of refuting any of these claims with referenced facts, but without fallacies in discussion? (ad hominems, strawmens, etc.)

[Hip]

Here the alledgedly so sophisticated recruitment techniques:

https://www.dis-info.../12-truths.html


Anyone up for the task of refuting any of these claims with referenced facts, but without fallacies in discussion? (ad hominems, strawmens, etc.)

 

This is a good example of the nature of antivax literature: it is disinformation especially designed to scare the willies out of people with a low IQ. Unfortunately it is hard to help such people; sadly those with a lower level of education or intelligence are often the victims of scams and disinformation.

 

The best thing we can do is encourage the tech giants to further clamp down on the viral spread of misinformation and disinformation. This will then help protect the vulnerable members of society. 

Edited by Hip, 24 April 2021 - 07:21 PM.

[Rocket]

This is a good example of the nature of antivax literature: it is disinformation especially designed to scare the willies out of people with a low IQ. Unfortunately it is hard to help such people; sadly those with a lower level of education or intelligence are often the victims of scams and disinformation.

The best thing we can do is encourage the tech giants to further clamp down on the viral spread of misinformation and disinformation. This will then help protect the vulnerable members of society.

LOL
The so called elite and intellectuals are often times the easiest to con and swindle. Look at Bernie Madoff and the hundreds of wealthy intellectual elite he stole all their money from by running a ponzie scheme from the 1920s.

I have found that smartest and brightest people don't run around like certain dimwit New York politicians proclaiming look how smart I am because I won a science fair prize in high school.

Its the people who are full of it because they got a political science (that's a contradction in terms!) degree from Brown that are the easiest to deceive because their minds are so open as to be a blank canvas. Once they think you're one of them they fall for anything.

History is replete with con artists, even in the very recent years, of con artists swindling even DC politicians and the elite all over the world.

Once you say your too smart to be fooled, that's a dead giveaway that you're among the easiest.

Its the elite who swallowed hook line and sinker for the last 40 years that the world only has 12 years before carbon destroys the world. I've witnessed many 12 years go by and surprise, nothing happened. Well I've witnessed the west stop building nuclear power plants while china and Russia march forward with more carbon producing coal plants. Live by the weather, die by the weather.

Prior to 40 years ago the elite intellectuals believed a new ice age was going to devastate the planet.

All the carbon in the ground was originally in the atmosphere... Well most of it was. The coal we dig out of the ground started out as atmospheric carbon that lead to plant growth and jungleification of the planet that lead to coal. There was no time in history of life on earth when atmospheric carbon lead to the desertification of the planet, but hey, facts don't matter.

The NIH reccomends you put on a new mask every 2 hours you are in public. Multiply that by 6 billion people over the course of a year. How many trillions of masks is that? Do the math. The entire planet can't support trillions of masks a year.... Well yeah they will just end up in the ocean which nobody seems to mind.

Edited by Rocket, 29 April 2021 - 01:47 AM.

[johnross47]

LOL
The so called elite and intellectuals are often times the easiest to con and swindle. Look at Bernie Madoff and the hundreds of wealthy intellectual elite he stole all their money from by running a ponzie scheme from the 1920s.

I have found that smartest and brightest people don't run around like certain dimwit New York politicians proclaiming look how smart I am because I won a science fair prize in high school.

Its the people who are full of it because they got a political science (that's a contradction in terms!) degree from Brown that are the easiest to deceive because their minds are so open as to be a blank canvas. Once they think you're one of them they fall for anything.

History is replete with con artists, even in the very recent years, of con artists swindling even DC politicians and the elite all over the world.

Once you say your too smart to be fooled, that's a dead giveaway that you're among the easiest.

Its the elite who swallowed hook line and sinker for the last 40 years that the world only has 12 years before carbon destroys the world. I've witnessed many 12 years go by and surprise, nothing happened. Well I've witnessed the west stop building nuclear power plants while china and Russia march forward with more carbon producing coal plants. Live by the weather, die by the weather.

Prior to 40 years ago the elite intellectuals believed a new ice age was going to devastate the planet.

All the carbon in the ground was originally in the atmosphere... Well most of it was. The coal we dig out of the ground started out as atmospheric carbon that lead to plant growth and jungleification of the planet that lead to coal. There was no time in history of life on earth when atmospheric carbon lead to the desertification of the planet, but hey, facts don't matter.

The NIH reccomends you put on a new mask every 2 hours you are in public. Multiply that by 6 billion people over the course of a year. How many trillions of masks is that? Do the math. The entire planet can't support trillions of masks a year.... Well yeah they will just end up in the ocean which nobody seems to mind.

 

Even by the standards of the anti climate change movement this is drivel.

 

No the elite, (how do you decide who is in the elite?) did not all believe there were only 12 years left before carbon ended it all. Some people suggested that a tipping point might be crossed within that time, which would lead to uncomfortable levels of climate change. Some journalists hyped the idea up.

 

Similarly it was simply suggested that an ice age was likely in the next thousand years or so on the basis or their frequency, and some journalists hyped it up.

 

Carbon was being locked up in rock by chemical reactions long before there were any plants.

 

I have never seen any proposal that high levels of carbon pollution would lead to desertification of the planet. One of the main predictions is that in some areas there will be increased rainfall. You've probably been mislead by journalists again or some crazy conspiracy site. Or taken a prediction for a specific area and generalised it to the whole planet.

 

I'm guessing you just reject anything that comes from a serious source.

[kurt9]

I read that restaurant sushi has high levels of methylmercury, up to 200 mcg per portion, whereas a can of tuna will contain around 30 mcg. 

 

Methylmercury of course bioaccumulates in the brain, and is the most neurotoxic form of mercury. It can even cross the placenta and accumulate in the brain of the fetus. That's why methylmercury containing-fish are not advised in pregnancy.

 

 

By comparison, the amount of mercury that used to be used in vaccines was about 10 to 25 mcg, and this was ethylmercury, which does not bioaccumulate much. 

 

This is why it was not logical for anti-vaxxers to go crazy about the relatively small amount of ethylmercury in vaccines, while remaining silent on the much more significant sources of methylmercury in fish.  

 

People who like tuna or sushi might eat a lot of it, as you did, which then will expose you to so much more mercury than you will ever get from vaccines. 

 

My point is that I am highly sensitive to Mercury in any form, just like some people are gluten intolerant. I also know that I am susceptible to autoimmune conditions even though I do not have any right now (and want to keep it that way). What I don't want is to end up with an autoimmune condition several years down the road, one that is incurable (although I would definitely try "Turnbuckle's" stem cell regeneration protocol if I had any such condition). If I choose to get or not get a vaccine, or to undergo any other medical conditions, I make such a decision based SOLELY on my unique biochemistry and personal experiences. Based on my personal experiences, current physiological condition, and known nature of my unique biochemistry, that taking a covid-19 vaccine is NOT a rational choice for me. My personal risk/benefit calculation simply does not add up in favor of it, and that is that.

 

You will note that I am NOT saying that you or anyone else should make the same choice as me. You can take the mRNA vaccine and be perfectly fine. Many others I know have done so, and as far as I know, they are all perfectly fine. Maybe some of the "anti-vax" people are trying to push people away from the vaccines. But I am not one of these people. 

 

We must make our decisions based on our own unique natures and set of circumstances. At the end of the day, I don't have to convince you or any one else when it comes to my personal life choices, particularly with regards to medical and financial decisions. My personal decisions are personal, period. There is really nothing more I can add to this discussion. 

[johnross47]

I would definitely not try any of "Turnbuckle's" protocols. Not since I saw that on one of them he was claiming that, as a mature adult, he had grown two inches as a result. My guess is that he is laughing his head off.

[pamojja]

The best thing we can do is encourage the tech giants to further clamp down on the viral spread of misinformation and disinformation. This will then help protect the vulnerable members of society.

Seems your CCP-masters been successful in silencing the 1st of the 12 information dozen: https://articles.mer...c-and-zinc.aspx
 

Why I’m Removing All Articles Related to Vitamins D, C, Zinc and COVID-19

Analysis by Dr. Joseph Mercola

 

What This Means for You

Through these progressively increasing stringent measures, I have refused to succumb to these governmental and pharmaceutical thugs and their relentless attacks. I have been confident and willing to defend myself in the court of law, as I’ve had everything reviewed by some of the best attorneys in the country.

Unfortunately, threats have now become very personal and have intensified to the point I can no longer preserve much of the information and research I’ve provided to you thus far. These threats are not legal in nature, and I have limited ability to defend myself against them. If you can imagine what billionaires and their front groups are capable of, I can assure you they have been creative in deploying their assets to have this content removed.

Sadly, I must also remove my peer reviewed published study16 on the “Evidence Regarding Vitamin D and Risk of COVID-19 and Its Severity.” It will, however, remain in the highly-respected journal Nutrients’ website, where you can still access it for free.

The MATH+ hospital treatment protocol for COVID-19 and the iMASK+ prevention and early outpatient COVID-19 protocol — both of which are based on the use of vitamins C, D, quercetin, zinc and melatonin — are available on the Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance’s website. I suggest you bookmark these resources for future reference.

It is with a heavy heart that I purge my website of valuable information. As noted by Dr. Peter McCullough during a recent Texas state Senate Health and Human Services Committee hearing, data shows early treatment could have prevented up to 85% (425,000) of COVID-19 deaths.17 Yet early treatments were all heavily censored and suppressed.

McCullough, in addition to being a cardiologist and professor of medicine at the Texas A&M University Health Sciences Center, also has the distinction of having published the most papers of any person in the history of his field, and being an editor of two major medical journals. Despite that, his video, in which he went through a paper he’d published detailing effective early treatments, was summarily banned by YouTube in 2020.

“No wonder we have had 45,000 deaths in Texas. The average person in Texas thinks there’s no treatment!” McCullough told the senate panel.18 Indeed, people are in dire need of more information detailing how they can protect their health, not less. But there’s only so much I can do to protect myself against current attack strategies.

They’ve moved past censorship. Just what do you call people who advocate counteroffensive attacks by terrorism and cyberwarfare experts? You’d think we could have a debate and be protected under free speech but, no, we’re not allowed. These lunatics are dangerously unhinged.

 

(emphasis added by me)

 

..These threats are not legal in nature, and I have limited ability to defend myself against them. If you can imagine what billionaires and their front groups are capable of, I can assure you they have been creative in deploying their assets to have this content removed.

 

Guess he now joined the club of billionaires too ;-)

Edited by pamojja, 04 May 2021 - 05:11 PM.

[Ames]

probably occurs only once in 10 million cases, I would guess;

 

 

 

The best thing we can do is encourage the tech giants to further clamp down on the viral spread of misinformation and disinformation. This will then help protect the vulnerable members of society. 

 

Honk!

 

Only masochists should engage with the OP. Its an odyssey of fact inversion, totalitarian sensibility, and scapegoating. Who cares? Give him as wide as berth as possible in his mission to save you through attack.

 

If only we had someone to save us from the self-appointed saviors. 

Edited by Ames, 05 August 2021 - 02:01 AM.

[Old grandpa]

Wow! Count me in with the anti vax murderers. And the op seems to be the one pushing hate and division. It's certainly not sewing love and unity to call me a murderer because I won't shoot the untested clot shot into my veins. Trump, whom you label a monster, is the one who cleared the regulatory hurdles to allow fast tracking these "vaccines" with Operation Warp Speed. He still brags about it! So thank your monster for giving you the clot shots.
How in the world does my vaccine choice affect you? You're protected, at least in your mind, so I can't spread anything to you. As for the other unvaxxed, I'm sure they made the same choice I did and know the risks. Where is your moralizing over flu vaccines? The flu kills hundreds of thousands each year but you weren't pushing masks and lockdowns every flu season and calling non flu vaccine takers murderers. You support tyranny only because you think you will spared its effects, much like sticking a BLM sign in your yard hoping you can avoid the rioting by doing so. This is a community of truth seeking adventurers, here specifically to avoid judgment of their medical interventions.

[Hip]

Wow! Count me in with the anti vax murderers. And the op seems to be the one pushing hate and division. It's certainly not sewing love and unity to call me a murderer because I won't shoot the untested clot shot into my veins. Trump, whom you label a monster, is the one who cleared the regulatory hurdles to allow fast tracking these "vaccines" with Operation Warp Speed. He still brags about it! So thank your monster for giving you the clot shots.

How in the world does my vaccine choice affect you? You're protected, at least in your mind, so I can't spread anything to you. As for the other unvaxxed, I'm sure they made the same choice I did and know the risks. Where is your moralizing over flu vaccines? The flu kills hundreds of thousands each year but you weren't pushing masks and lockdowns every flu season and calling non flu vaccine takers murderers. You support tyranny only because you think you will spared its effects, much like sticking a BLM sign in your yard hoping you can avoid the rioting by doing so. This is a community of truth seeking adventurers, here specifically to avoid judgment of their medical interventions.

 

Anti-vaxers are not people who decline a vaccine. Some people are quite sensitive to vaccines, and have a history of adverse effects to previous (non-COVID) vaccines, and so have to think twice about vaccination, and balance the protective benefits with the possibility of side effects.

 

I have no issue with people declining vaccinations because they are sensitive to them. 

 

Rather, anti-vaxers are those who go around scaremongering about vaccines, putting the fear of God into other people, so that they decline a protective vaccination on the basis of irrational fear promoted by active anti-vax individuals or groups. Anti-vaxers have murdered millions because of their lethal message. But that's the price we pay for freedom of speech.

 

You are not an anti-vaxer on the basis of declining a COVID vaccination (you may be misguided, but you are not an anti-vaxer). But once you start on a scaremongering campaign online, you become one. As you have labeled the COVID vaccine the "untested clot shot", that's fear tactics, that would place you in the anti-vaxer camp, if this is the usual way you refer to the COVID vaccines online.

Edited by Hip, 02 January 2022 - 05:59 PM.

[Old grandpa]

I don't normally discuss them at all until I felt you were calling me a murderer. Tends to incense one. But I will stick by that name now since they induce your cells to produce the spike protein, which can be toxic and cause clots. I'm not in a position to influence anyone, but if I were, I'd influence you to refrain from othering those who have rational reasons for having different opinions than you. The unvaxxed are being ostracized from society and interned like criminals due to thinking like this. It won't lead to anything good.

[Mind]

"The anti-vax movement's sophisticated recruitment techniques"

 

....which apparently includes citing peer-reviewed research.

[Hip]

I'd influence you to refrain from othering those who have rational reasons for having different opinions than you. The unvaxxed are being ostracized from society and interned like criminals due to thinking like this. It won't lead to anything good.

 

Rationality is not a given, it is something that requires a good analytical education, training and the appropriate mental abilities to begin with.

 

Many people are not able to think rationally about COVID vaccines. The incidence of blood clots is extremely low, around 1 in 50,000, yet the chances of getting long COVID from a coronavirus infection is about 1 in 100, and the chances of death for unvaccinated older people can be as high as 1 in 5 for those over 80.

 

A rational person who understands basic mathematics will appreciate getting the COVID vaccine is a no-brainer, since 1 in 100 is a far higher risk than 1 in 50,000.

 

An emotional person whose social media-induced vaccine fears are stronger than their mathematical abilities will tend to refuse the vaccine as a result of their emotions overriding their (lack of) rationality. 

 

 

Free nations are always characterized by rationality. When you get forces in society like the anti-vax groups who prey on people's fears and emotions, that is counter to rationality and counter to freedom. 

[Old grandpa]

Lol, first you imply I'm irrational and that it is a rare phenomenon, only exhibited by those with proper training, and then you say it is so common that it characterizes free nations across the globe. You posted no verification for your numbers, but I will note that 80 is longer than the life expectancy of roughly 80% of the globe. You make no mention of comorbidities.
I'm glad you were able to follow your decision to get vaccinated unmolested and hope you will grant the same to those who choose differently.

[Hip]

Lol, first you imply I'm irrational and that it is a rare phenomenon, only exhibited by those with proper training, and then you say it is so common that it characterizes free nations across the globe.

 

I said that many people are not able to think rationally about COVID vaccines. This is because it requires considerable scientific understanding to come to a rational decision about taking a COVID vaccine, and not everyone has this scientific training. So many people sensibly trust that the health services are delivering the right advice. Which they usually do, as that is their business.
 

Thinking rationally about more simple daily subjects is a skill which nearly all people possess.


 

You posted no verification for your numbers 

 
Surely you should know the numbers yourself, since you claim to be making your own decision regarding vaccination. 

 

If you are not aware that COVID kills as much as 1 in 5 in the over 80 year olds, and about 1 in 12 of the 70-79 year olds, then you really have not done you background research on this subject, and are not therefore making an informed personal decision about vaccination. 

 

Some COVID death rate data here and here. You might like to look at those figures, and then decide what is best for you.

 

 

I'm glad you were able to follow your decision to get vaccinated unmolested and hope you will grant the same to those who choose differently.

That's what I would like to see: that everyone can make their own vaccine decision without adverse interference. But unfortunately many people have been deeply molested by the fear tactics of the anti-vax groups. These people are so deeply molested they cannot think rationally.

 

[Old grandpa]

Fear tactics? I heard the president of the USA say that I was looking at a winter of death and serious illness for choosing to remain unvaccinated. You yourself are using fear tactics by pushing death statistics for a virus that has a 99.9% survivability rate. I've already had covid and yet natural immunity no longer counts for participation in society, only a vax pass.
Btw, am I being censored? I'm new here so I was allowed 5 posts per day but now I am only allowed 2.

[Hip]

Fear tactics? I heard the president of the USA say that I was looking at a winter of death and serious illness for choosing to remain unvaccinated.  

 

That is a factual statement, not a fear tactic.

 

Omicron is a lot milder, and kills people less often. But it spreads faster, and this rapid spread may make up for its milder nature, since lots more people will be infected (if you don't understand that, let me know, and it can explain it in more detail).

Edited by Hip, 03 January 2022 - 02:02 PM.

[Old grandpa]

I guess I'll waste my last available comment. Predictions of the future by their very nature can never be factual. They can have a presumed percentage of being accurate but never factual.
You are most arrogant to assume I'm in need of you explaining anything to me. I'll leave now so you can finish your Kool Aid and go back to sleep.

[Hip]

 I've already had covid

 

Well, since you have had COVID, be aware that the SARS-CoV-2 virus has been shown to linger in many organs long after the acute infection is over.

 

A new study showed that SARS-CoV-2 enters almost every organ of the body, and stays there long term.

 

So once you catch COVID, the virus may remain alive in your body forever.

 

So for those who have already had COVID, the issue is not just protection from further COVID infections (because it's not uncommon to have COVID more than once), but also the unknown long-term health consequences of having SARS-CoV-2 as a ongoing smoldering infection in the body.

 

As you can see in this post, there is an unexplained 40% increase in deaths in the 18 to 64 year old age range, and this could be due to the long-term health consequences of having SARS-CoV-2 in your body, smoldering away.

Edited by Hip, 04 January 2022 - 06:55 PM.

[Old grandpa]

Thank you for the info.
We also know that those who are vaccinated can still both catch and spread the virus. So be aware that the virus could remain alive in your body forever.

And of course the excess deaths could be lingering effects of the vaccines, it's just too early to tell. Although we didn't have such excess deaths in 2020 when the virus was raging with no vaccines available; especially odd with the death rates from covid you claim. Are you claiming the vaccines will eliminate these lurking viral invaders?

Look, I had both alpha and delta, and neither was a huge deal. Due to having alpha, delta was two days of blah and back to normal. I had them before vaccines were available for my age group. I now have natural immunity, always a real thing until this became politicized. We have immune systems or we would have died out millennia ago. And we also have therapeutics to help the immune system.

This sure feels like a fear tactic from you. (I know, I know, it's factual when you do it, only fear mongering when I do it.) I'm not afraid and I'm living my life as normally as I can. How about posting some info or theories on ridding the body of these deep hangers on?

Edited by Old grandpa, 04 January 2022 - 08:24 PM.

[Hip]

Although we didn't have such excess deaths in 2020 when the virus was raging with no vaccines available;

 
Excess deaths were observed right at the beginning of the pandemic, and were higher than the total of the deaths which are recorded as COVID deaths.
 
I believe the excess deaths were something like 60% greater than the total number of recorded COVID deaths.
 
These excess deaths appeared long before the vaccines came on the scene.
 
See the diagram in this article for the excess deaths in each country.
 
 

 

Are you claiming the vaccines will eliminate these lurking viral invaders?

 

People with long COVID, which may be due to the ongoing SARS-CoV-2 infection in their body, report substantial improvements from the vaccination, especially the mRNA vaccines. You can Google it. This suggests the vaccines may help clear some of the virus from the body, even if given after an acute coronavirus infection.  

 

 

 

 

We have immune systems or we would have died out millennia ago.

This sure feels like a fear tactic from you. (I know, I know, it's factual when you do it, only fear mongering when I do it.) I'm not afraid and I'm living my life as normally as I can. How about posting some info or theories on ridding the body of these deep hangers on?

 

Ridding the body of its pathogenic load? Ridding all the viruses, bacteria and other microbes the body has slowly but surely accumulated throughout its life? That's the holy grail of medical science you are talking about, cleaning out every single nasty pathogen from the body.

 

Some people think SARS-CoV-2 is the only nasty disease causing pathogen out there. But in fact there are hundreds of pathogens in common human circulation which are harmful to our health and wellbeing, many of which you will find living in our bodies. 

 

One school of thought posits that all chronic disease and cancers are actually caused by the smoldering viral and bacterial infections we all have within our bodies. 

 

If you care to look at any disease or cancer, whether heart disease, atherosclerosis, stroke, MS, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, diabetes, Crohn's, etc, they have all been linked to common everyday infectious pathogens, and some researchers believe that these pathogens are screwing up the functioning of a healthy body, and causing a chronic disease or cancer to occur. 

 

In other words, the body on its own never gets diseased; it is only when a highly pernicious outside factor like a virus comes to live in our body that disease occurs.

 

If you do not believe me, see this article, which lists the pathogens found in each disease.

 

I subscribe to this pathogen theory of chronic disease and cancer, and I believe that in the distant future, hundreds of years from now, when we will have eliminated all these pathogens, then humanity will enjoy a golden age of perfect health and longevity, and people will have amazing vitality, energy and perfect mental health, because their bodies will not be burdened with the high pathogenic load we currently endure.

 

Until then, we all have to suffer from the diseases that pathogens cause, according to one school of thought.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 04 January 2022 - 09:06 PM.

[Old grandpa]

I discovered something new today. I'm being rated! My mobile phone does not show this feature but I happened to have my phone in desktop mode. Haha, I hope it doesn't influence my comments.
On a more serious note, thanks for being civil and I'll look at the info you posted. I'm out of posts so don't look for a quick reply.

[Hip]

One thing you might like to consider for promoting clearance of lingering or smoldering viruses is the immunomodulator called oxymatrine. This is derived from the herb Sophora flavescens root. 
 
Oxymatrine ramps up the Th1 immunity, which is the antiviral branch of the CD4 T-cell immune response. The Th1 response deals with intracellular pathogens which live inside human cells, such as chronic viruses.
 
Oxymatrine is used by myalgic encephalomyelitis / chronic fatigue syndrome patients to help clear their chronic enterovirus infections. 

 

The dose is around 300 mg, taken once daily, or twice daily if you like, for around a month or two, in order to slowly clear out lingering viruses.
 
There are two main brands available:

Alternative Medicine Solutions oxymatrine (300 mg oxymatrine per capsule) available here: alternativemedicinesolution • betterlife • alchemistlab

White Tiger brand oxymatrine (200 mg oxymatrine per tablet) available here: chineseherbs • acuatlanta • goldenneedleonline • maxnature

I found the White Tiger brand (which contains both matrine and oxymatrine) caused dizziness for an hour or so after taking each tablet, whereas the Alternative Medicine Solutions brand (which contains only pure oxymatrine) did not cause this side effect.

Note that oxymatrine is not recommended for people with autoimmune tendencies or seizure disorders. In those with autoimmune conditions or a family history of major autoimmune conditions, oxymatrine can occasionally trigger rheumatoid arthritis. 

[mmats]

It makes sense to take the vaccine if you have ethics, and care about others. It may not make as much sense if you are one of the "me, me, me" generation who only think about themselves.

 

But even if you are "me, me, me" oriented, encouraging everyone to get vaccinated will help return society to normal, which is in everyone's interests.

 

Since you care so much, I assume you have taken every vaccine ever created, on the exact day they were made publicly available? If not then I guess we can agree to label you a murderer right here and now.

[Hip]

Since you care so much, I assume you have taken every vaccine ever created, on the exact day they were made publicly available? If not then I guess we can agree to label you a murderer right here and now.

 

Vaccines cannot help a great deal once you have caught the virus. They work best as preventative agents. I have EBV for example, and an EBV vaccine if it became available will not help me get rid of this virus, as it lives in many of my cells.  

 

But if the young generation were given an EBV vaccine, they would never catch EBV. As a result, they might never suffer any of the diseases EBV is linked to, like MS.

 

There are lots of great vaccines that are now on the vaccine schedule that were not available when I was a kid. This generation may be blessed with fewer chronic diseases when they are older, as a result of being lucky enough to have been given lots vaccines when young which protect them from disease associated viruses.

 

But there is still a long way to go. There are many other nasty viruses for which we still have no vaccine. Like enterovirus, which likely kills around 90,000 people per year in the US via the heart attacks it is linked to. Ref: here.

Edited by Hip, 07 January 2022 - 04:43 AM.