16 replies to this topic

[CarlSagan]

Been having heart arrhythmia issues for a while with short little muscle twitches all over my body & eyelid throughout the day.

waiting on results from a monitor but it seems very likely a magnesium deficiency is the primary issue. I wasn't aware but apparently I get whack amounts from my diet after adding it up, around 150mg - 200mg a day for the past 5 years or so. + I started taking Vitamin D3 this year which apparently can exacerbate a mag deficiency.
 
This study shows giving Epinephrine to people lowers serum magnesium levels acutely. https://www.tandfonl...rnalCode=uacn20
 magnesium has been shown to improve heart function.
 
 Chronic Mg2+[/size] deficiency significantly decreased the dose of epinephrine required for arrhythmias in rats https://www.jcvaonli...(04)00067-9/pdf
 
now what I found interesting was looking at this study https://www.scienced...00291499390986M supplementing around 1500mg mag chloride for 6 weeks significantly lowered ventricular tachycardia occurrences by 24%. but if you look at the serum magnesium levels they only mildly increased from .87 to .92? as it was around 180mg elemental magnesium supplemented (a moderate amount).
 
seems that is a pretty small increase to have such significant effects on lowering tachycardia instances right? well look at what supplementation did to their adrenaline levels: Plasma epinephrine decreased from 447 ± 535 to 184 ± 106 pg/ml  - a massive reduction in epinephrine over 6 weeks if the number is correct (not 100% on that ± 535 number?

   this suggests the reduction in plasma epinephrine from magnesium supplementation was the key to bettering heart function.
 
Maybe anxiety disorders create an ongoing excessive chronic adrenaline response day to day - which can mess with your heart over time (I have had exaggerated anxiety through most of my life), and this is also increased by magnesium deficiency which has an inverse relationship with adrenaline, and may lower the threshold it takes adrenaline to cause arrhythmias.
---

Now i've started supplementing with 2000mg mag chloride for 240mg elemental magnesium + 150mg elemental magnesium from mag citrate. should bring me to about 550mg total with food. so hopefully that will help over a couple weeks & months.

hypericin in st johns wort may inhibit the dopamine beta-hydroxylase enzyme to lower conversion into epinephrine, could be worth a go but idk about inhibiting this enzyme in general yet.
 
 Do you know of any supplements shown to reduce plasma adrenaline levels?

Edited by CarlSagan, 18 June 2021 - 03:25 PM.

[CarlSagan]

looks like Omega 3s reduce plasma nor-epinephrine significantly but increase epinephrine - nor-epinephrine ratio. so not 1 for reducing adrenaline https://pubmed.ncbi.....gov/15925295/ 

 

(also I have always had bizarre vivid crazy dreams nearly every night of my life and wake up unrefreshed from this, seems like too much REM sleep. i'd imagine this would tie in with chronic adrenaline dysfunction as it's supposed to be lessened during normal healthy sleep https://www.ahajourn.../01.HYP.30.1.71 and REM sleep % scales with epinephrine https://academic.oup...0/3278/2823237 s the correlation is clear, higher epinephrine basically = higher REM sleep https://oup.silverch...ournal/jcem/82/ so it will be interesting to see if this is balanced better by magnesium supplementation for 6 weeks & others that reduce adrenaline)

Edited by CarlSagan, 18 June 2021 - 04:07 PM.

[CarlSagan]

possible targets: PNMT  "Evidence shows that adrenal PNMT activity increases after exposure of animals to stress conditions, such as immobilization, cold, psychosocial stimulation, or after attack by another animal. This increase in adrenal PNMT activity is controlled by neural and endocrine regulators. The increased levels of epinephrine under stress conditions appear to be in part because of increased PNMT activity. A specific inhibitor of PNMT in the adrenal medulla could suppress the formation of epinephrine without directly interfering with the biosynthesis of other catecholamines. Several classes of inhibitors of this enzyme have been identified from in vitro studies". 
& dopamine beta-hydroxylase enzyme (converts dopamine to noradrenaline, and adrenaline is synthesized from noradrenaline, which makes the omega 3 study strange as it sounds like lowering noradrenaline did not lower adrenaline seeing as the ratio changed. maybe it did somewhat will have to look more, this one said in 3 weeks epinephrine response to stress was blunted https://www.research..._in_healthy_men)

 

Interestingly epinephrine is a hormone that does not exert any negative feedback to down-regulate its own synthesis when high.

Edited by CarlSagan, 18 June 2021 - 05:00 PM.

[CarlSagan]

taurine https://www.ahajourn...01.CIR.75.3.525 20% lower compared to placebo at 6g for 7 days, and 15% lower in normotensive group. +rat study showed 1/4 epinephrine levels compared to control, taurine has shown anti arrhythmia activity too, which adds to this being key

Edited by CarlSagan, 18 June 2021 - 05:31 PM.

[CarlSagan]

I started taking Vitamin D3 this year which apparently can exacerbate a mag deficiency.

 

I looked into this a bit more and it seems like this is a common misconception. Actually it looks like vitamin D and magnesium have positive relationship, mag doesn't get "used up" / depleted by normal vitamin D intakes but has involvement with it. I only found decreased serum magnesium from massive vitamin D doses in kids, like 200,000 IU per day.

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.....gov/23981518/ High intake of total, dietary or supplemental magnesium was independently associated with significantly reduced risks of vitamin D deficiency and insufficiency

 

^ taking magnesium alone can help Vitamin D status 

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....ih.gov/7669504/ - Magnesium absorption increased linearly from 28-39 per cent intake with increasing dietary vitamin D. Urinary magnesium was not affected, thus magnesium retention also increased linearly as a function of vitamin D intake. Plasma calcium and magnesium were not altered by vitamin D.

 

^ taking Vitamin d enhances magnesium absorption in pigs and does not impact plasma levels 

 

-

Magnesium "deficiency" also looks to be rare from only low dietary intakes as there is a balancing mechanism in the body (but not sure how rare, as getting a true measurement isnt a simple blood test).

 

kidneys regulate magnesium excretion when intake is low. we excrete magnesium in urine at normal levels. But deficiency can occur if people have problems with this regulatory mechanism through a genetic defect or a disease known to impact this.  it's hard to tell if you are one of these people though so symptoms of mag deficiency with low intakes can still point to mag being the solution, and it seems even without a defect here, the kidneys can only give you so much of a boost if intakes are really low.

 

according to this the average excretion is 33mol / 73mg per 24 hours   https://www.scienced...esium-excretion

 

this says in a magnesium deficiency the body can reduce excretion to <24mg per day and talks about some things that can increase magnesium wasting  - including Vitamin D deficiency (low vit d status can impair magnesium)  https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/8264509/ 

 

^ so assuming good function, you get say a 50mg boost in magnesium levels on low intakes from the kidneys retaining more as a balancing attempt? meaning if you are more than 50mg under average intake you are at a net loss in magnesium - hitting your bones & muscle tissue (including heart) as they are found in the highest amounts, so body frees up magnesium here bit by bit over time?

 

then there's the re-absorption mechanism which could come into play but idk

 

as studies have shown it has therapeutic benefits regardless of just correcting a deficiency anyway. 

--

 

 

update: I've had insomnia the past few nights. first I thought it was the taurine so eliminated, then I figured it was the Mag Chloride due to the chloride part as some people have noticed insomnia with chloride supps, so eliminated. it happened again last night on just magnesium citrate, the worst insomnia actually and after the highest dose yet of 450mg. 

 

Plus the muscle twitches have definitely gotten worse (which i didnt expect), heart area spasms have increased & im getting some pain there. plus noticeably increased anxiety. basically the opposite of what I expected so far. i've been taking 300mg - 400mg elemental a day, mixed chloride & citrate

Looking it up it seems magnesium isn't actually a sleep aid for everyone, there's a decent amount of reports for magnesium interfering with sleep even with glycinate. which is strange because I always thought occasional use in the past it helped me get to sleep.

 

one report mentioned it inducing a sort of tiredness but paradoxically keeping him awake through mental stimulation etc, which matches my experience.

 

 

there's also a link with magnesium and calcium i'm gonna look more into, but it made me realize may calcium intake has been low for years too. probably around 500mg a day. though calcium also has a regulatory mechanism with small amounts needed outside of bone so looks like low dietary intakes causing deficiency is rare. saw a study which mentioned 500mg intakes leading to bone loss in elderly people and calcium was being scavenged from bone. 

 

  Dropped the magnesium to 220mg elemental 2x chloride & 1x malate, and will spread it out before night time instead. also started taking 400mg calcium carbonate, and will get a bit more from yogurt or maybe casein which has around 350mg per 15g protein.

Edited by CarlSagan, 26 June 2021 - 12:42 PM.

[pamojja]

For me a severe Mg-deficiency started once I raised serum vitamin D3 to in average 70 ng/ml about 12 years ago.
 
To counter it I steadily increased my elemental oral Mg-intake. Tried all different forms, but in my case it appears the only thing which matters is the elemental Mg-content of any Mg-compound. In average now at 1.8 g, beside 0.4g from diet per day.
 
Which alleviated extremely painful muscle-cramps only somewhat. Finally only almost monthly Mg-sulfate IVs, started almost 3 years ago, ceased the cramps.

 

Due to pandemic restrictions my GP quit the IVs this January. Cramps coming back, I now increased oral to 2.5 g/d, but only alleviates the cramps somewhat again.

 

Testing serum showed no correlation (highest long ago, declining and lowest with IVs), testing whole blood did initially show severe deficiency, improving with IVs, but with the latest test (during IVs) coming back deficient again.

[CarlSagan]

taurine https://www.ahajourn...01.CIR.75.3.525 20% lower compared to placebo at 6g for 7 days, and 15% lower in normotensive group. +rat study showed 1/4 epinephrine levels compared to control, taurine has shown anti arrhythmia activity too, which adds to this being key

More on taurine:

 https://www.ahajourn...01.CIR.75.3.525 they stimulated adrenaline release by injecting glucagon and noticed a significant decrease in adrenaline response in the taurine group. they also mentioned lowering of basal plasma adrenaline levels. "Taurine not only reduced mean blood pressure and basal plasma E, but also attenuated the increased response to glucagon in the borderline hypertensive subjects". so both reducing baseline levels and reducing adrenaline response to stressor. the mice study over a longer period of 8 weeks showed no change in basal adrenaline levels, but a big 70-80% reduction in response to stress.

 

plasma E was significantly higher in borderline hypertensive than in normal subjects. & in them average plasma concentration of epinephrine after taurine was significantly lower than that after placebo (50.7 vs 64.6) so a 22% reduction. and a higher effect in the people with elevated adrenaline levels suggesting a normalizing effect. they say

However, in the normotensive subjects taurine did not significantly change plasma epinephrine (41.0 ± 5.4 to 35.3 + 3.8)". BUT this looks significant to me also, a 14% reduction so not sure why they didn't note this as significant.

 

They used 6g of taurine a day for 7 days. The study mentions more than 90% of the taurine was excreted "indicating a good compliance with therapy". So I guess doses under 6g might be just as effective. and doses of 1.5g daily in heart patients has showed beneficial response for exercise capacity over 2 weeks.

 

I found this one https://journals.phy...siol.90525.2008 , which shows the timing of taurine & blood elevation. basically Taurine works by 1 hour for a big increase in blood levels. It goes up 3x more to peak by 2 hours and is still elevated higher than the first hour at 4 hours. 1 week wasnt long enough to elevate muscle levels but 1.66 grams was enough to massively increase blood levels 13x acutely by the 2 hour peak, and still up 6x from baseline by 4 hours, before the re-dose. so that's insightful about the way to dose. 1.5g - 6g daily, elevation should last at least 3 hours from the first hour, if multi-dosing then good to drop at 3 or 4 hours after.     
hawthorn & nicotinamide might also have effects here but have not researched yet

[CarlSagan]

The problem is with taurine it (may) downregulate GABA with consecutive use according to the big anxiety thread on here by scienceguy, so could have a countering anxiety increasing effect? 

Beta blockers have this adrenaline reducing effect if can get a prescription for them, isolated to effects on the heart. maybe the non selective ones like Propranalol could have an effect on overall levels?

 

 

Anyway Vitamin E is a potential candidate. tho not sure if it would need to be high doses. maybe vitamin C at 1500mg+ (which at least blunts cortisol & adrenaline response to exercise significantly in marathon runners).

 

human study https://academic.oup...9592?login=true high dose 600mg a day in diabetics for 4 months lowered norepinephrine a lot, and lowered epinephrine

 

 

Since excessive amounts of catecholamines are known to produce arrhythmias and increase the plasma level of aminochrome, an oxidation product of catecholamines, we tested the hypothesis that antioxidants may reduce the formation of aminochrome and prevent the catecholamine-induced arrhythmias.  
The results indicate that antioxidants may prevent catecholamine-induced arrhythmias by reducing the formation of aminochrome and thus may provide a new strategy for the management of stress-related heart disease.

 

Electrocardiogram recording of these animals revealed that pretreatment with either of these vitamins (A or C)  increased the time of onset and decreased the duration of the epinephrine-induced ventricular arrhythmias.  

 

 

Rat study where high dose Vitamin E administration given 24 h and 1 h before adrenaline infusion, significantly increased the amount of adrenaline required to produce pathological arrhythmias https://www.semantic...d459b0cf308b9b 

 

Rat study showed Vit E 500mg equiv human dose or n-hexane tomato extract at 15mg (didnt show if lowered adrenaline, but reduced serum aspartate aminotransferase (want it low) and malondialdehyde concentration in heart after adrenaline dose)   https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/19476257/

NAC doesn't seem to lower epinephrine going by a diabetic human study. it actually increased a bit. but this may reduce the secondary aminochromes. Vit E seems better option though

 

https://journals.sag...074248409333855 rat one -

 

electrocardiographic analysis revealed that both NAC and vitamin E decreased the duration and increased the time of onset of epinephrine-induced arrhythmias in a dose-dependent manner. 

vitamin E positively effected aminochromes and malongialdehyde from epinephrine administration , where NAC positively effected aminochromes

Edited by CarlSagan, 10 July 2021 - 10:14 AM.

[CarlSagan]

Something interesting I found on Calcium & Epinephrine relationship

https://pubmed.ncbi.....gov/2153475/  

 

We evaluated the cardiovascular and hyperglycemic actions of epinephrine (10 and 30 ng/kg/min), with and without calcium chloride administration in a prospective, randomized, blinded, crossover designed study. Twelve adult patients were studied 1 day after aortocoronary bypass surgery. 
 

Epinephrine alone at 10 and 30 ng/kg/min significantly raised cardiac index from 2.7 to 3.0 and 3.6 l/min/m2. After calcium, epinephrine failed to significantly increase cardiac index. "We conclude that calcium blunts epinephrine's beta-adrenergic actions in postoperative cardiac surgery patients."

[2 Duckets]

Is there a safe supplemental form of calcium to take? Also, it would probably be good to take vitamin K2 with the calcium, no?

[CarlSagan]

Is there a safe supplemental form of calcium to take? Also, it would probably be good to take vitamin K2 with the calcium, no?

https://ods.od.nih.g...lthProfessional

Calcium carbonate seems safe enough when taken with food at under 500mg going by this. but depends on if your diet leaves room for it (total intake isn't near upper tolerable limit). one study found >1000mg linked to more risk of heart related deaths and another >=500mg where 130 placebo had a heart attack vs 166 calcium group. but I don't think either of these took dietary intakes into account, meaning many of the people could have been over the upper limit by supplementing. 

"the American Society for Preventive Cardiology and the National Osteoporosis Foundation added that based on the evidence to date, “calcium intake from food and supplements that does not exceed the [UL] should be considered safe from a cardiovascular standpoint.”

 

idk if k2 would be necessary at standard amounts but looks good for the heart in general

hard to tell what's helping or hurting atm im still in a bit of a whirlwind with my heart anxiety sleep quality fatigue etc while I wait to be checked out, hard to function right. got ekg results back 2 months after the recording which showed extra ventricular beats & tachycardia at times, from a few months ago when the heart issues were milder.

Edited by CarlSagan, 15 July 2021 - 11:10 AM.

[CarlSagan]

Update to this.  

I had a heart scan which showed no structural damage (so an electrical problem).  there was one point where it seemed like my heart could give up any given night with beats all over the place, sharp pain, pounding, hr changes at rest etc.

 

now still not 100% yet but these symptoms have gotten maybe 90% better since.

 

A few months back I started supplementing 400mg calcium after food & getting in an extra 1.5g Potassium spaced out over a day (initially from potassium bicarbonate for a while but think this gave me stomach issues after a bit so switched to food, orange juice, coconut water 600mg per 250ml, more potatoes potato chips/crisps etc). i didn't do well with magnesium supplementation at varying doses (maybe due to the nmda antagonistic activity)

 

can't be sure this is what helped but seeing as these play a role in electrical activity of the heart, and I've been probably 50% too low in both of these for years, it seems so. 

I still have some of the short muscle twitches in varying places & the heart stuff shows up somewhat here and there. but mostly no longer to the point where it's a big problem thankfully. i want to find out the main specific reasons behind it & of whats left of the twitches. still suspect all this stuff has been adrenaline related

 

Edited by CarlSagan, 27 October 2021 - 02:05 PM.

[CarlSagan]

Update - i found the 1.5g potassium was the thing helping out of the potassium calcium combo. dropped caclium. taking potassium citrate in 300mg doses after food with decent bit of water, and a cup of orange juice or coconut water daily.  but still isn't enough alone.

 

upping vitamin D3 to even 1500iu / 2000iu / 3000iu made the symptoms worse again clearly & acutely. and with the symptoms improving after taking less D3 it confirms this is the main thing causing or contributing. maybe through inducing hypercalcemia on typically tolerated doses & low calcium intakes for some genetic reason , or some other adrenaline associated mechanism, or something else. 

 

problem is vitamin d is vital to wellness vitamindwiki.com so need to find a way to better process good doses. magnesium did absolutely nothing & actually seemed to make things way worse.

 

i was taking good amounts of d3 for the first few months initially and didn't have any side effects. maybe k2 was the thing helping with this though i dropped it for some reason. or maybe it just took a while for the effects to show regardless. but trying k2 again to see if it helps.

Edited by CarlSagan, 24 January 2022 - 05:36 PM.

[johnhemming]

More recently I have also been studying the interplay between Cortisol  Adrenaline/Epinephrine and NorAdrenaline/NorEpinephrine.  What I found that was interesting is that when cortisol levels are higher then it upregulates Phenylethanolamine N-methyltransferase (aka PNMT) which is the enzyme which converts A/E to NA/NE.  Hence you get a pulse of glucose from A/E which IMO speeds up the heart on top of whatever NA/NE is doing.  As well as potentially some glucose from Cortisol doing its thing.

 

The Anxiety will push up Cortisol through the HPA cycle which is where meditation and breathing exercises can help.

 

What might be helpful is a PNMT inhibitor, but breathing exercises and the like are possibly the best bet or something that works on the HPA axis such as Ashwaghanda.

 

There are lots of pages like this

https://functionalme...rging-hpa-axis/

 

I don't endorse any of these pages myself, however.  (or even Ashwaghanda)

Edited by johnhemming, 24 January 2022 - 07:18 PM.

[Elusive]

@CarlSagan, that is the reason I keep my D3 hormone most of the days at 1000ius with a Multivitamin. My Multi has only 100 iu per tablet. I also take 100mg of Mag Malate at lunch or dinner. (To me A/D/E/K are all hormones).

My main reasons for taking the D3 hormone is to get clear Cognitive boost and remedy for all bodily aches and pains.

 

Now here is the kicker :-)

I have also tried 1000 - 2000 iu Nature Made D3 Tablets for months and surprisingly they don't cause the D3 side effects and I get all the positive effects. I have experienced that all the oil based D3s eventually lead to bad side effects in doses over 1000 ius. I NEVER get those anxiety/weakness/dry mouth (and sometimes pain in finger digits) type side effects on the dry tablet, which I have always taken with a meal so it gets properly absorbed. 

 

Try tablets (any brand) and see if you still get those bad side effects.

 

I am suspecting that these side effects are either because of how fast or quickly oil based D3 gets into the system vs a tablet which could be slower.

Or... it could be the oils causing the bad effects. But my gut feeling points more towards the way these these are absorbed or taken up by the body. 

May be dry D3 go through slower or more conversion steps so body has more CONTROL over it. Remember D3s can be different as the one we get/make from the SUN, even at 10000iu within 30 mins, has zero side effects!

 

And also, following this logic, D2 at 1000iu could also be a great experiment.

 

Nevertheless, I have found dry D3 tablet, even at 2000 iu, to be consistently free of bad effects. Let me know your find. 

Thanks.

Edited by Elusive, 12 May 2022 - 03:26 PM.

[CarlSagan]

Update to this - I recommend people stay away from even potassium bicarbonate thats supposed to be "safe". as this triggered long lasting ulceration in my small intestine with burning & constipation lasting a long time now (ulcerative colitis). and is hard to resolve. (but main mechanisms are h2o2 induced neutrophil recruitment to inflammation sites, causing worse damage in a loop - https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC9453768/ paper with insight on fixes)

 

The potassium wasnt the fix anyway. the electrical symptoms were simply decreasing because of vitamin D levels coming down again (post time was October)

I still get this problem from vit d (tried all forms) / too much sunlight. best guess is iron deficiency (without anemia) leading to impaired myelination of nerves , and maybe vit d making this worse by transporting heavy metals or something. have seen people mention twitches stopping when they got their iron up. (but iron supplementation can worsen gut issues, heme iron is best).

Edited by CarlSagan, 30 May 2023 - 10:33 AM.

[CarlSagan]

i post on raypeatforum too. alternatively the vit d might tie in with h2o2 also https://www.ncbi.nlm...s/PMC4853285/  

will get my iron up with heme iron polypeptide for 4 weeks and see how that goes

Edited by CarlSagan, 30 May 2023 - 11:56 AM.