3 replies to this topic

[gamesguru]

Hi all,

 

Not only are the ginsenosides chemically structurally similar to the estrogen molecule, there's also evidence of those effects in both sexes (and across different species), with potential mechanisms including both elevating estrogen levels^[1][2] and activating the receptor^[3][4] directly.

The effects might be mild—especially if taken only intermittently, but that defeats the purpose of an effective, daily adaptogen doesn't it?

 

Rhodiola^[1] likely also falls into the pro-estrogen bucket, showing moderate success in alleviating menopause symptoms.

 

Ginkgo has mixed results^{[1][2][3][4][5]} but is probably best shied away from on a daily basis.

 

Soy is another hotly contested one especially amongst vegans, but again (in extreme quantities) I've read literature on feminizing effects.  It both activates receptors and raises ligand levels^[1][2].  Genistein and daidzein (isoflavones) likely explain these effects^[3],and—besides bacon—soy is the predominant food source. The role in breast cancer is double-edged and an open area of research^[4].

 

Icariin in horny goat weed (you can similarly search this up) has suspected estrogenic effects.

 

 

 

Most mushrooms—including probably lion's mane^[1]—act as weak-to-low aromatase inhibitors. So they should slow your conversion of testosterone into estrogen.  Though women have more of this enzyme, a high mushroom diet is not recommended in postmenopausal syndrome; once the ovaries cease to produce estrogen, aromatization becomes the primary source.

 

Green tea should be mostly anti-estrogenic, although it also decreases testosterone overall^[1][2][3][4].

 

Ginger is probably the most studied androgenic herb^[1][2].

 

I recently found two new supplements also, Calcium D-Glucarate^[1] and (dose-dependently) DIM^[2][3].  They both regulate or affect estrogen metabolism, and DIM occurs naturally in leafy greens and other foods.

 

These supplements can also be taken by women with ovarian or breast cancer remission/risk, or who are just looking to regulate their hormone levels naturally.  The effect on serum parameters is mild, only a 20% increase or decrease

 

 

Happy experimenting!

 

And don't be afraid to quit taking a supplement that isn't agreeing with you

 

Opening this up to further discussion.

[experimenting]

Every herbal seems estrogenic haha. Panda Ginseng makes my nipples tingle, as does Tongkat Ali, etc.

I’m still looking for one to raise my libido without these effects, but haven’t found it. On the mushroom front cordyceps just gave me a ton of anxiety.

[gamesguru]

Yeah one day i was drying my chest after a shower felt like an ingrown hair catching in the towel but was "just" a tender spot developing, next day i discover all this and cut out ginseng and soy milk.  Gradually reintroduced soy milk in limited amounts.

 

True, seems like you really have to watch your back.. a lot of supplements ARE estrogenic.  Although red ginseng is especially strong perhaps compared to rhodiola, it's tough deciding where to draw the line in some cases.

 

As for the mushrooms, they work through aromatase inhibition, which reduces the localized conversion of T to E in various tissues.  Most estrogen in the male body (and post-menopausal) is aromatized locally, as needed, site-specifically; it is not secreted systemically like the ovaries are capable of.  DIM and Glucarate lower estrogen similarly, by inhibiting enzymes or precursors.  However these all function to lower endogenous estrogen, there's nothing here to reduce the activity of exogenous phyto- or xeno-estrogens. That would require receptor "antagonist" activity:

 

According to docking score, we selected 8 representative compounds for both ERα competitor assay and luciferase reporter gene assay. Genistein, daidzein, phloretin, ellagic acid, ursolic acid, (-)-epigallocatechin-3-gallate, kaempferol, and naringenin exhibited different levels for antagonistic activity against ERα. These studies validated the feasibility of machine learning methods for predicting bioactivities of ligands and provided better insight into the natural products acting as estrogen receptor modulator, which are important lead compounds for future new drug design.

 

Some of these tend to be agonists, like genistein and daidzen from soy.  Others have a more complicated action, and it's not clear how effective they would be:

Naringin and naringenin revealed a double directional adjusting function of estrogenic and anti-estrogenic activities. Both of them showed estrogenic agonist activity at low concentration or lack of endogenous estrogen. On the other hand, they also acted as estrogenic antagonists at high concentrations or too much endogenous estrogen. They produced estrogenic and anti-estrogenic effects primarily through selectively binding with ERβ, which could prevent and treat osteoporosis with the mechanism of estrogenic receptor agitation.

 

I never tried cordyceps but kinda skeptical of the research and benefits, I was talking mostly choice edibility (button/portabella, shiitake).

 

If you're just looking for healthy male reproductive health, lowering estrogen isn't always the way to go.  If your levels are already pretty normal, lowering them can cause you to lose interest.  There's another thread about controlling testosterone levels, that might be a good place to start.  Dopamine D1/D2 are also important.  And the last step is influenced by arterial dilation and antioxidant status, so something like ginger and NAC could be worth trying.

[brendan1]

Googling Ginger + Testosterone results in just as many indications that it raises testosterone.