2092 replies to this topic

[Gal220]

The shift in the narrative is happening fast. Even Politico is now highlighting the congressional report about how Trump "pressured the FDA to approve treatments and the vaccine".

 

How soon before the national media in the U.S. start calling it "Trump's death shot"?

 

I think this is just another story, Trump did give them an out to blame him for the ambitious vaccine development, Warp Speed.  But so far, most of the MSM has held strong. 

 

There are cracks in the conservative media, blaze came clean about news being paid off to promote the vax and other shows like Tucker have exposed the harm and failure.

 

 

 

ALT left news like Joe Rogan, Jimmy Dore, Russell Brand, and Bill Maher are awake, but nothing main stream that I am aware of.

 

 

 

Youtube recently sniped a John Campbell video reviewing vaccine mortality as a possible cause for the weeks of excess non covid deaths in the UK.

Whether the vaccine or no, the MSM there doesnt seem all that interested in even talking about it..

 

The video is on Rumble and Bitchute now

https://metatron.sub...n-vax-believers

Edited by Gal220, 29 August 2022 - 01:44 PM.

[shifter]

I am still skeptical of the CDC's record-keeping. Australia is yet another country where more injected people are landing in the hospital than non-injected people. In December, in the UK vastly more injected people died of COVID than non-injected people. Maybe more of the non-injected people in the UK have stronger/better natural immunity, leading to the difference in mortality, just spit-balling a possible reason.

 

Going back at what I missed since I was last here and I had to LOL at this. Sorry,

 

In Australia more than ~90% of the population in most states has been vaccinated at that time. ~99% of people in Canberra for instance, had been vaccinated. This mindset of 'oh look more vaccinated people are in hospital than non vaccinated people' is laughable. What you need to look for is the proportion of vaxxed to unvaxxed people in hospital. If for example, 99% of people in Canberra are vaccinated and you have 10 in hospital and 0 in ICU and 5 not vaccinated people in hospital and several of them in ICU, which is the better result?

 

Non vaccinated people in every bit of data presented have always ended up in hospital or died in a disproportionate amount of cases. More people vaccinated in hospital simply because almost all of the population is vaccinated.

 

 

Also, I notice throughout this thread you keep pointing out the positive test results following vaccinations and how that must represent a fail on the vaccines part...

 

No scientist worth their salt will say that vaccine prevents infection. That's impossible no matter the virus or bacteria. Being infected is not being diseased. Preventing disease is the job of a vaccination. So if Iceland has most of its population vaccinated but sees surges of infections post lockdown life, that is not a fail. You need to look at how many end up sick enough to be in hospital or die and compare that statistic to people who are not vaccinated and end up in hospital or die. Not how many tested positive to the virus which is basically everywhere including the air we breathe around others so will be found almost everywhere people are. Think about how Sars cov-2 spreads vs say Tetanus. But even vaccinated if you went digging around the garden and cut yourself on something that had tetanus on it - you will be infected with tetanus. The vaccines job prevents that infection from taking hold and progressing to you being diseased. I would think you would know this so have to wonder why or if you are being disingenuous when you portray the covid vaccine as a failure when people still test positive to infection...

 

I'm sure you know but for the benefit of others perhaps, they are not COVID TESTS. They are Sars Cov-2 tests. (covid rolls of the tongue for the non medical /scientific among us). A positive test result is not positive for COVID. A stay in hospital with pneumonia and low blood oxygen level etc is a positive indicator. And no vaccine works 100% of the time. Chances are, given how many covid has killed, regardless of age or fitness status, an immunized person in hospital would have probably had a much worse outcome had they not been vaccinated. The influenza vaccine doesn't provide 100% protection either but no one is faulting that - it's widely accepted it does a good job and indeed the data backs it up. Just like it backs it up for covid if anyone cared to look

 

Also when vaccinated a few things to note. Were they in good health? Had they been drinking alcohol? Did they get a good nights sleep? etc. A vaccine works best when your body is in prime form. If you had an all night bender before getting vaccinated, that vaccine probably wont be worth jack crap. People with suppressed immune systems either because of drugs or sickness also lead the way in breakthrough cases. Not surprising.

 

You are in a country where over 1 million people have died from a disease and you still want to minimise its impact based on personal anecdotes of knowing 'such and such who got it and was fine'

 

Pretend no one social distanced, wore masks or took a vaccine.... How much death and misery do you think you would be dealing with right now? Covid is not restricted to killing old people. Sure, if an 80 year old caught it it's a literal role of the dice stakes. But the law of large numbers... If for everyone else the chance of death was averaged at 1 in 100 well scale that up to Americas ~330 million people and does 1 in 100 still look low and insignificant? That doesn't even account for the long covid sufferers, permanent damage and likely reduced life expectancy from the damage. In all those cases you will find many graves for babies and children who succumbed to it too, as well fit and healthy people prior to infections across the whole age spectrum.

 

Also you talk about the excess deaths and saying 'this happened soon after we vaccinated so logically its probably the vaccines'. Given we vaccinated a massive chunk of the world in a small time frame it is important to remember correlation does not imply causation. Given what we know about covid and permanent damage, long covid etc - it is much more likely that prior covid infections (especially those before vaccinations with nastier strains) are the reason why people are dying 'unexpectedly'. There was a cricketer here in Oz, Shane Warne who was very famous. He had covid bad enough to need oxygen. He was known for always eating a crappy diet. Then before he died of a heart attack, ~2 weeks prior we was going on this 'shredding diet' to lose as much weight as possible in a short time. He ate next to nothing and worked out hard. One can only imagine the loss of electrolytes like potassium the heart needs. Of course, every anti vaxxer blamed that he might have had a vaccine. No one cared to give weight to anything more credible. Turns out his heart wasn't the best having congenital disease discovered in an autopsy. Coupled with his crappy shredding diet and body building at the same time it really is no surprise his heart failed. But hey, notch that one up to the vaccine right? Just like all the people who took their own lives.... Assume they took the vaccine and assume the vaccine killed them - and never take back what you said after finding out the actual reason they died.

 

Anyway, I can see this is predominately an antivaxxer site where people posts links of some random saying 14 Canadian doctors got killed only to see that they inflated that figure with 2 who died of advanced cancer and another who died after being seriously ill for some time - just shows the disingenuous nature of the antivaxxers reporting. There was no source other than some random person alleging it. No one cares about fact checking and everything has some weird political slant affecting ones ideology on the subject. Science does not give a rats about who you vote for or why.

 

 

 

[shifter]

Youtube recently sniped a John Campbell video reviewing vaccine mortality as a possible cause for the weeks of excess non covid deaths in the UK.

Whether the vaccine or no, the MSM there doesnt seem all that interested in even talking about it..

 

The video is on Rumble and Bitchute now

https://metatron.sub...n-vax-believers

 

It's not just YouTube. Members of the public also reported it - I know because I was one of them

 

John Campbell alleges the vaccine killed up to 21K people in the UK based on some 'Yellow card' reporting

 

I know people thinks he follows the data but he didn't analyze it well here

 

If you vaccinate a whole swathe of people in a short time - you are going to find people drop dead - because people die every day of a plethora of causes. What you need to look for is if the background rate of death is elevated above what you normally expect to see in the background - and adjust for an aging population and an increased population

 

Now when they study deaths post vaccine - it doesn't matter if the person died in a car accident or of cancer or old age - they see that 'x' amount of people got vaccinated and at the end of the study, 'y' amount of people are left. So say in a particular group, 2100 didn't make it to the end - that's reported but then you have to also look at their cause of death.

 

Johns mistake is taking this raw data, assuming that was all vaccine deaths, assuming there is about a 90% under reporting and then assuming and scaling up all those as vaccine deaths too. Ludicrous

 

The reported deaths after the investigations as he outlined at the start was 10. John then went on this BS spiel where he took every death reported, (2109 across all vaccine types) and then did a 'x10' to the number because he assumed it was under reported and assumed it was all deaths to the vaccine. Of course the video was taken down. It was full of BS

 

John knows the make up of his audience and is pandering to their fears and narrative

 

It's funny that in the beginning he was big on 'conspiracy theories do no good in the health care sector and one should just stick to the facts.' Well the facts reported was 10 deaths. That was the number after all investigations and research. John then delved into the conspiracy and plucked numbers out of the air to allege up to 21K people were killed by the vaccine. No science, no looking into the causes of deaths, just tell your audience what they want to hear. Funnily enough the research was done and the number was 10, what he showed at the start of the speil - but that's not as click baity as saying 21,000 deaths I guess

[shifter]

lol at the 'pointless, timewasting' on my post lol

 

If you disagree, please share why you think so. Does it annoy you when I unravel John Campbells nonsense regarding vaccine deaths? Because that's exactly the BS he used to fool his audience. I'd be curious to see how you justify his plucked figure of 21K dead when only 10 were found after investigating the deaths. Also it's a bit hard to under report a death - I mean if you had a fast feeling heart beat or a sore chest after a vaccine - that can and I'm sure does go unreported. If you die - somebody is going to notice and investigate as to why.

 

Anyway, John released a new video on excess deaths - a little less BS in this one however you can see him attempting to weave the narrative of vaccines throughout it. Dont worry, I didn't report this one

 

I will however give more credence to a prior covid infection having far more weight on the reason for excess deaths than receiving a vaccine.

 

Let's say you had a covid infection - it may have damaged your heart - permanently. Months later you compete in a major athletics event and really push yourself to the limit. Your heart later fails but you have no covid infection. It will be ruled as an 'unexplained' heart attack and not due to covid even if the actual cause was thanks to a prior covid infection that ruined your heart unbeknownst to you.

 

Tag this one as Pointless too. Or Unfriendly. Truth can be that way too. I think it's funny when you tag these like that but clearly have no actual rebuttal to what I said. I'd love to actually debate though - but I dont blame you guys for not wanting to engage too much. Facts, sources, data and evidence is all stacked against you. You only have hearsay, conjecture and conspiracy theories to work with

[Mind]

If you vaccinate a whole swathe of people in a short time - you are going to find people drop dead - because people die every day of a plethora of causes. What you need to look for is if the background rate of death is elevated above what you normally expect to see in the background - and adjust for an aging population and an increased population

 

 

Here is yet another country where background mortality increased - in correlation with the roll-out of the COVID injections. When it keeps happening in country after country, reasonable health officials, researchers, and scientists should be asking questions and should be re-analyzing initial assumptions. With COVID, unfortunately, anyone who raises a counterpoint - no matter the credentials - is shouted down publicly in hate-filled screeds and their jobs are threatened.

 

Even here in the forum, data and research is presented that should create important discussion, but the rebuttals are mostly "you are stupid", "that researcher is an idiot", "anti-vaxxers should be arrested", and all manner of other slander.

[shifter]

Here is yet another country where background mortality increased - in correlation with the roll-out of the COVID injections. When it keeps happening in country after country, reasonable health officials, researchers, and scientists should be asking questions and should be re-analyzing initial assumptions. With COVID, unfortunately, anyone who raises a counterpoint - no matter the credentials - is shouted down publicly in hate-filled screeds and their jobs are threatened.

 

Even here in the forum, data and research is presented that should create important discussion, but the rebuttals are mostly "you are stupid", "that researcher is an idiot", "anti-vaxxers should be arrested", and all manner of other slander.

 

Before the vaccination roll out in Germany, about 1.6 million people had been infected with covid. The original strain, alpha and delta among them. Right now, 32 million infections reported and 76% eligible vaccinated.

 

Do you give any weight to covid damage being a potential cause for excess deaths? What makes you so sure a vaccine could do it? What is in the vaccine you think could make people a ticking time bomb? And how do you propose the method of killing someone via a vaccine works?

 

We know 'long covid' is real and affects a sizeable portion of those infected. Who knows how many have sub clinical damage they dont know about... We know covid and your bodies immune response can leave scarring throughout. We know the effects of internal scarring on organs and how they weaken, destroy and increase the likelihood of cancer. We know it causes lung, heart and even brain damage. So why is it such a stretch to believe that a prior infection could be a cause for deaths happening now

 

Dont you assume that a real live covid virus with over 2 dozen different spikes, multiplying and invading cells in the millions is worse than a vaccine which has a single spike, your body makes and your immune system disposes of with no threat of an infection?

 

If I got infected with covid without being vaccinated, I'm pretty sure luck would be on my side - but it's the damage the infection can leave behind that worries me. This isn't like an influenza virus which you knock over in a few days and your 100% recovered. You may never fully recover from covid. Vaccines give you an edge to prevent the worst effects and damage. Like natures cheat code.

 

I've had 3 shots myself and before I go on holiday later this year I'll be grabbing a 4th. I look at everything believe me. Even charlatan channels like John Campbell. Then I test his allegations and I also read the literature (a lot which he has misunderstood or 'missed' telling us in his video but maybe he hopes we dont read his sources or know how to read them). I check peer reviewed articles. I deliberately tailor a search that zeros in on antivaxxer claims and then fact check everything and every side. I have yet to find any data that suggests that vaccines are killing untold amounts of people and causing serious harm despite all the loud conjecture to the contrary

 

You say anti vaxxers get slandered - when they make ad hoc nonsense claims about subjects and cases they know nothing about it's probably deserved in many cases. These people spread fear and ignorance. Things like the vaccine changing your DNA, micro chips, 5G, magnetizing and of course blaming every future death on the vaccine as if the vaccine was supposed to prevent death itself. Sorry, but I have little sympathy. If they dont want to get vaccinated for their own personal reasons, sure. But to try and sway others by projecting their ignorant BS? Not cool

 

I have no problem in investigating excess deaths - but it should be done by people who know how to read statistics and take all the data into consideration without bias. Not armchair experts bumming on the internet with their own 'theories' why people are dying. There was a video John Campbell did about excess deaths in Australia and he invited some random bogan lady from Australia to basically insinuate it was the vaccine...... But when someone who knows what they are talking about looked into the data and adjusted for the aging and increased population from the before/after graphs, unsurprisingly - there were no excess deaths in Australia.

 

 

(play at x2 speed as she talks slow lol)

[geo12the]

lol at the 'pointless, timewasting' on my post lol

 

If you disagree, please share why you think so. Does it annoy you when I unravel John Campbells nonsense regarding vaccine deaths? Because that's exactly the BS he used to fool his audience. I'd be curious to see how you justify his plucked figure of 21K dead when only 10 were found after investigating the deaths. Also it's a bit hard to under report a death - I mean if you had a fast feeling heart beat or a sore chest after a vaccine - that can and I'm sure does go unreported. If you die - somebody is going to notice and investigate as to why.

 

Anyway, John released a new video on excess deaths - a little less BS in this one however you can see him attempting to weave the narrative of vaccines throughout it. Dont worry, I didn't report this one

 

I will however give more credence to a prior covid infection having far more weight on the reason for excess deaths than receiving a vaccine.

 

Let's say you had a covid infection - it may have damaged your heart - permanently. Months later you compete in a major athletics event and really push yourself to the limit. Your heart later fails but you have no covid infection. It will be ruled as an 'unexplained' heart attack and not due to covid even if the actual cause was thanks to a prior covid infection that ruined your heart unbeknownst to you.

 

Tag this one as Pointless too. Or Unfriendly. Truth can be that way too. I think it's funny when you tag these like that but clearly have no actual rebuttal to what I said. I'd love to actually debate though - but I dont blame you guys for not wanting to engage too much. Facts, sources, data and evidence is all stacked against you. You only have hearsay, conjecture and conspiracy theories to work with

 

It's easier for people to tag your posts as timewasting than actually read them thoroughly and critically. Because those people are cozy and comfortable in their media echo chambers that cater to their already formed beliefs. Never mind that those echo chambers are mental straightjackets. You've made a lot of good points in your posts. But don't hold your breath that the conspiracy minded people here will actually go through and analyze those points in a good faith manner. 

Edited by geo12the, 29 August 2022 - 05:48 PM.

[Gal220]

It's not just YouTube. Members of the public also reported it - I know because I was one of them

 

John Campbell alleges the vaccine killed up to 21K people in the UK based on some 'Yellow card' reporting

 

I know people thinks he follows the data but he didn't analyze it well here

 

If you vaccinate a whole swathe of people in a short time - you are going to find people drop dead - because people die every day of a plethora of causes. What you need to look for is if the background rate of death is elevated above what you normally expect to see in the background - and adjust for an aging population and an increased population

 

John alleges deaths from the vaccine was between 10-21k people and called for more investigation(maybe watch the entire video).  He has been pro vaccine and frankly he dismissed the Yellow Card data for months even though he was aware of it.

 

Now that the excess death numbers cant be avoided as they have continued for weeks, he finally addressed this data as a possibility.  However the signal has been there the whole time

https://docs.google....31d3c1088_27_68

 

 

Vaccines like all medicine  have differing levels of adverse events,  the mRNA vaccines in particular have an extremely high rate of severe adverse events, 1 in 800

https://brownstone.o...-vaccines-safe/

[shifter]

John alleges deaths from the vaccine was between 10-21k people and called for more investigation(maybe watch the entire video).  He has been pro vaccine and frankly he dismissed the Yellow Card data for months even though he was aware of it.

 

Now that the excess death numbers cant be avoided as they have continued for weeks, he finally addressed this data as a possibility.  However the signal has been there the whole time

https://docs.google....31d3c1088_27_68

 

 

Vaccines like all medicine  have differing levels of adverse events,  the mRNA vaccines in particular have an extremely high rate of severe adverse events, 1 in 800

https://brownstone.o...-vaccines-safe/

 

Yes I saw the entire video. The 10 reported was the investigated deaths. The 21K figure was based on raw data of 2109 deaths (prior to investigation of the deaths) and then a 'x10' to account for 'possible under reporting'. and then attributing every one of them as a vaccine death. Does that sound like a good scientific method to you?

 

Also John and his 'excess death' claims I cant take too seriously seeing as he tried to be creative with the Australian statistics when in actual fact - there were no excess deaths to report - and Australia has been among the highest mRNA vaccinated country on the planet

 

 

As for serious adverse effects or anything related to research I prefer systematic reviews which looks at many studies and details everything

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC9206826/

 

The whole thing is a bit long to quote here but suffice to say the risk/benefit analysis is still in clear favour of vaccination vs the risk of adverse effects. I have more risk of injury and death driving to work or eating some greasy fast food rubbish than I do a vaccine. No vaccine or medical procedure is without risk. A Sars Cov2 infection presents a huge risk in comparison and like I said, it's basically a matter of when, not if, you get it (unlike other diseases).

 

Conclusion

Some severe adverse events were observed among the recipients of mRNA vaccines, but a direct relationship between the vaccines and adverse events was not yet clearly established for the adverse events, except for myopericarditis. The rate of severe adverse effects was low and obviously, the benefits of receiving vaccines in preventing severe COVID-19 and death outweigh the possible rare adverse events of the COVID-19 vaccines. Therefore, the healthcare officials should enlighten the people on the safety of the vaccines, in this case mRNA vaccines, to avoid further hesitations in COVID-19 vaccination, which may endanger the lives of people and pose a huge burden on the healthcare system.

 

 

 

As for the Brownstone Institute, I dont find they are all that reliable

https://mediabiasfac...institute-bias/

 

Looking at their latest tweets their stance on vaccination is pretty slanted. And clearly not in favour. So I'll take an unbiased systematic review over some institute that doesn't agree with vaccinations.

 

And your other link with a graph about reporting to VAERS. Again, its raw data (if that graph is accurate which it might be I dont know - the web site it's hosted on isn't official). In the years prior to covid vaccination, people were not getting vaccinated at the scale of over a hundreds of million in a year. More vaccines all at the same time = more people in the pool to find dead from natural or misadventure causes too. All of which get reported. So being raw data, anyone who dies - gets on the list - no matter what they died from. Then the investigative work begins - and in the UK and their system, that was found to be 10 deaths. You cant use raw data to make assumptions.

 

 

Also it seems there is a lot of BS in the raw data of VAERS as people can self report - and gets initially accepted

 

https://www.politifa...d-because-covi/

 

But VAERS accepts reports without verifying whether a vaccine actually caused that incident. That makes VAERS a breeding ground for misinformation that spreads quickly on social media and elsewhere. For more than 30 years, VAERS data has been misused to justify broad conclusions that vaccines are harmful. 

As for COVID-19, more than 346 million doses of vaccines were administered in the U.S. from Dec. 14, 2020, through Aug. 2, 2021, according to the CDC. 

During that period, VAERS received 6,490 reports of death (0.0019%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. 

But VAERS reports alone do not indicate whether a vaccine causes a particular adverse effect. They indicate only that a particular event occurred after a vaccination. Researchers can use that data as a starting point to study whether the event is linked to the vaccine.

"A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines," the CDC says.

 

Edited by shifter, 29 August 2022 - 07:25 PM.

[shifter]

It's easier for people to tag your posts as timewasting than actually read them thoroughly and critically. Because those people are cozy and comfortable in their media echo chambers that cater to their already formed beliefs. Never mind that those echo chambers are mental straightjackets. You've made a lot of good points in your posts. But don't hold your breath that the conspiracy minded people here will actually go through and analyze those points in a good faith manner. 

 

Honestly thought a site like this might have had trust in medical and scientific research fields especially when the data is such a slam dunk but it seems like a lot of people here are unable to critically think and let go of existing biases. Why trust the hundreds of thousands if not millions of researchers around the world who have devoted their careers to exactly this kind of work and all come out saying the same thing when some meme by some comedian or some grifter talk show host that doesn't have a clue what he's talking about says otherwise?

 

I guess they'll keep throwing more conspiracy theories or easily debunked or uncredible graphs and insinuations about vaccine deaths but never any evidence. I'll look at anything they have (not that the courtesy will be returned I'm sure) but how exactly does one come to a conclusion in the absence of evidence though? And reject a conclusion that has evidence? I guess only they know.

[Dorian Grey]

Vinay Prasad MD MPH has an excellent video opinion of the new bivalent vax.  

 

 

Got to get everyone as healthy as possible between now & the mid-terms!  

[shifter]

Vinay Prasad MD MPH has an excellent video opinion of the new bivalent vax.

Got to get everyone as healthy as possible between now & the mid-terms!

The math still doesn't check out. Getting vaccinated is still far safer than getting covid

Infect a million 5-50 year olds (considered by the public as 'low risk' with omicron) vs vaccinate them. In which group will you see more adverse outcomes and death?

I'm not talking adverse like a sore arm or nausea - but put in hospital with life altering damage. As for myocarditis - how many vaccinated cases have been shown to lead to permanent damage vs mild and self resolving?


The math still works in favour of vaccination

And I think we can do away with this omicron being 'mild' or no more than 'the flu'. It's killing hundreds of people a day in America DESPITE the fact so many if you have been infected previously. 'natural immunity' isn't superior..... Tell me how natural immunity is better if your body and lungs are ruined in the process and the next varient or your immune memory can still be evaded a few months later? Where even a future cold can knock you down for your lungs being damaged.


Also unvaccinated end up in hospital far more often than vaccinated. Just because you live doesn't mean the health care system wasn't congested or strained in the meantime making patients who needed it for non covid related concerns weren't adversely impacted

And honestly, given how political ideology seems to affect people's health decision making in America, if the government wanted to ensure a better mid term result, they would just leave covid to run rampant as its killing Republican voters far more than democrat ones because Republicans are less likely to vaccinate.

Why do you think Trump came out urging people to get vaccinated? In crucial swing states where the result can be decided by a few hundred or thousand votes, he saw his side dying at a far higher rate.

He's entitled to his opinion but it's clear math wasn't exactly his forté

Edited by shifter, 01 September 2022 - 08:12 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

Don't know if you watched the same video.  He's not ardently anti-vax, (and nether am I) but pointing out a couple of peculiarities about this particular release.  

 

We know the spike is cardiotoxic.  This new jab contains modified spike and has not been tested for safety.  Is it more cardiotoxic, or less?  We don't know, but we're about to jab it into millions of arms.  Would a brief safety evaluation of the modified spike not be wise?  

 

The new jab was tested for effectiveness against original omicron, but not the currently circulating om-4/5.  Would it not be wise to see if this is in fact effective at all against the current variants before mass release?  

 

They've approved this for "emergency" use in young, healthy adults, and it will be mandatory for many.  Is omicron really such an emergency in young, healthy adults that warrants bypassing all safety and effectiveness trials before mandatory administration in this population?  Might it not be wise to grant EUA for seniors, and hold off on jabbing the young & healthy until safety and effectiveness can be established?  

 

I got jabbed & boosted, so hardly anti-vax.  Then I got omicron, which I consider to be equal to an omicron booster.  Do those of us who've been jabbed, boosted and had omicron really need an emergency omicron boost right now?  Will the effectiveness of this boost not be starting to wane by Thanksgiving/Christmas, when the next wave is likely to arrive?  Do we boost again at that time too? 

 

Would it not be logical to wait till November to roll out this new jab?  We could be doing some safety and effectiveness studies in Sept/Oct.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 01 September 2022 - 03:02 PM.

[Mind]

With regards to the COVID injection, there is also a problem with public health officials hiding data, making (belatedly admitted) false statements, and ignoring evidence contrary to the vax narrative, while also creating a culture of hatred toward those raising questions.

 

This makes me suspicious of the some of the published data. I don't want to be, but I have to be.

 

When I dig into the studies, many of them have poor design (like not testing for prior infection, not controlling for age or disease status). As published with extensive documentation, the original Pfizer trial was very poorly done and should not have been used for authorizing a product that had never successfully completed a human trial before 2021. According to reports, the latest booster is being approved based upon the results of a study with 8 mice. If this is true, the the approval process in the U.S. is truly broken and a joke.

 

An argument could be made that "long COVID" is responsible for the well-documented rise in all-cause mortality from many countries shortly after the widespread injection campaigns. However, that is pure speculation - similar to those who speculate the COVID injections are to blame. The disturbing thing is that this rise has also been seen in working age adults. One would suspect that it would be occurring among the elderly more - if it was "long COVID". Also, the risk of myocarditis in young men under 40 who got the Moderna injection, is greater than any risk from COVID.

 

When talking about the multitude of people who have died after getting the injections, it is often said, "some people just die". Nothing out of the ordinary. That is hard to accept when I see severe adverse events within my circle of acquaintances (repeated flu-like illness, 1 with heart problems, 1 stroke, 2 with cancer). Remember that tens of thousands of severe adverse events were reported during the original Pfizer trial, and nearly 3% of the trial participants died. Pfizer just did some hand-waiving and said that none of it was due to the injection. I have yet to see any data about autopsies or even how they determined that none of it was due to the injection.

 

 

[shifter]

Don't know if you watched the same video.  He's not ardently anti-vax, (and nether am I) but pointing out a couple of peculiarities about this particular release.  

 

We know the spike is cardiotoxic.  This new jab contains modified spike and has not been tested for safety.  Is it more cardiotoxic, or less?  We don't know, but we're about to jab it into millions of arms.  Would a brief safety evaluation of the modified spike not be wise?  

 

The new jab was tested for effectiveness against original omicron, but not the currently circulating om-4/5.  Would it not be wise to see if this is in fact effective at all against the current variants before mass release?  

 

They've approved this for "emergency" use in young, healthy adults, and it will be mandatory for many.  Is omicron really such an emergency in young, healthy adults that warrants bypassing all safety and effectiveness trials before mandatory administration in this population?  Might it not be wise to grant EUA for seniors, and hold off on jabbing the young & healthy until safety and effectiveness can be established?  

 

I got jabbed & boosted, so hardly anti-vax.  Then I got omicron, which I consider to be equal to an omicron booster.  Do those of us who've been jabbed, boosted and had omicron really need an emergency omicron boost right now?  Will the effectiveness of this boost not be starting to wane by Thanksgiving/Christmas, when the next wave is likely to arrive?  Do we boost again at that time too? 

 

Would it not be logical to wait till November to roll out this new jab?  We could be doing some safety and effectiveness studies in Sept/Oct.  

 

https://www.aap.com....-vaccine-study/

 

The 'toxic spike' claims has been investigated and researchers and actual experts from around the world have debunked the claim. Unless we are going with a world wide conspiracy where researchers are finding out all these awful truths and then telling the world something else. Even passing peer review. I'll trust them more than some contrarian looking for fame

 

Personally, if I was infected with omicron (like my wife a little while ago), I wouldn't get vaccinated again right away because I dont see the value. Give it a few months. But there are still a lot of us (like me) who have never been infected with sars cov2 before so I will be getting another vaccine dose before I go on holiday later this year. Certainly here, no one is mandating vaccines for people who have been infected. It is simply 'health advice' to get a 'booster' dose.

 

Emergency use is still justified given how much damage a plethora of severe cases of covid all at once strains the health system which leads to worse outcomes for everyone. A collapse of a health system would be disastrous and as immunity wanes or the virus mutates

 

There is also no harm in getting vaccinated a few weeks post infection because not all 'natural immunity' is 'equal'. Especially when your body might have been under severe stress or down and out for a while. Immune response is usually better when the body is in prime form.

 

 

 

I am genuinely curious:

 

Why is an actual virus with over 2 dozen different spikes preferable to antivaxxers than having a single spike, produced by your body, that stays local, not attached to a virus capable of infecting cells and replicating, somehow worse? That same spike is also in the virus - which does go throughout your body replicating millions of times over

 

Nowhere have I seen any antivaxxer say that previous sars cov2 infections could have lasting damage that could cause 'sudden deaths'. This is why they are hard to take seriously. Minimising the actual virus and what we know it is capable of (millions dead, scores more with long covid) and instead blaming only a vaccine which out of the billions injected with it, very few have been linked to death. Obviously death by any medical procedure is a tragedy and no one - not even scientists/researchers say the vaccine is without risk. But getting infected with sars is almost considered inevitable - get it by a vaccine and/or get it by the virus. I'll take the chance with a vaccine - not because I fear death from covid (small but still orders of magnitude larger than influenza), but because of the long term/permanent damage covid can/does do. So having an immune system that is switched on when sars comes knocking is the safest bet.

 

I would take antivaxxers more seriously if a massive cohort of them didn;t make silly claims like its gene therapy, changes DNA, makes you magnetic, is related to 5G or injecting microchips, blaming every death or ill even months to years later on a vaccine despite not knowing anything about the persons medical history or how the died - just jump to the vaccine as a cause of death etc

 

And if they stopped promoting 'natural immunity' like it's somehow desirable and more effective (given you must be afflicted with the very disease you want to NOT get). Antivaxxers are usually - not always, but usually the kind that also are against wearing a mask or social distancing - even if sick. So they really dont have a plan part from getting covid naturally. Not a great plan!

 

 

The UK who abandoned mandatory isolation for workers infected with covid now have a massive amount of their work force off sick with long covid

 

https://www.theguard...ned-losing-jobs

 

Long Covid is a debilitating, chronic physical illness affecting multiple organs, occurring in individuals after infection with Sars-CoV-2. It manifests with a myriad of potential complications, including damage to the heart, lungs or brain; disorders of the nervous system; blood clots; impaired memory; and disabling levels of fatigue. The number of people living with long Covid in the UK is now estimated at approximately 2 million.

 

The rate of Covid-19 caused by workplace exposure is around four times higher in health and social care workers compared to workers across all industries. Moreover, health and social care workers are seven times more likely to have had severe Covid-19 than other workers. At least 199,000 NHS workers are currently living with long Covid. This is in addition to more than 2,100 health and social care workers who have lost their lives due to Covid-19.

 

 

Apart from the damage to the front line health care sector, it is causing a lot of economic damage and lost productivity. This is the result of not treating covid seriously. And 2 million with long covid means there could be 2 million bodies more fragile in critical areas (such as heart, lungs and brain) then before infection. 2 million ticking time bombs? (Just in the UK). Heart attacks, lung cancer and strokes much more likely - in addition to the obvious reduced quality of life. So yeah, covid is not gone and should still be treated as an emergency. People need to stop using death as the only metric to judge this by.

 

 

 

Edited by shifter, 02 September 2022 - 11:40 PM.

[shifter]

With regards to the COVID injection, there is also a problem with public health officials hiding data, making (belatedly admitted) false statements, and ignoring evidence contrary to the vax narrative, while also creating a culture of hatred toward those raising questions.

 

This makes me suspicious of the some of the published data. I don't want to be, but I have to be.

 

When I dig into the studies, many of them have poor design (like not testing for prior infection, not controlling for age or disease status). As published with extensive documentation, the original Pfizer trial was very poorly done and should not have been used for authorizing a product that had never successfully completed a human trial before 2021. According to reports, the latest booster is being approved based upon the results of a study with 8 mice. If this is true, the the approval process in the U.S. is truly broken and a joke.

 

An argument could be made that "long COVID" is responsible for the well-documented rise in all-cause mortality from many countries shortly after the widespread injection campaigns. However, that is pure speculation - similar to those who speculate the COVID injections are to blame. The disturbing thing is that this rise has also been seen in working age adults. One would suspect that it would be occurring among the elderly more - if it was "long COVID". Also, the risk of myocarditis in young men under 40 who got the Moderna injection, is greater than any risk from COVID.

 

When talking about the multitude of people who have died after getting the injections, it is often said, "some people just die". Nothing out of the ordinary. That is hard to accept when I see severe adverse events within my circle of acquaintances (repeated flu-like illness, 1 with heart problems, 1 stroke, 2 with cancer). Remember that tens of thousands of severe adverse events were reported during the original Pfizer trial, and nearly 3% of the trial participants died. Pfizer just did some hand-waiving and said that none of it was due to the injection. I have yet to see any data about autopsies or even how they determined that none of it was due to the injection.

 

I knew a guy at work. Saw him on a Friday, happy, laughing, full of life. Monday got the news he was at home, went to get up off his chair and died of a massive heart attack. Vaccine? Well this was over 10 years ago so dont think the covid vax had anything to do with it....

 

The Pfizer trail enrolled tens of thousands of participants and they didn't get all healthy '20 something' year olds to test it.

 

As for your claims of deaths

https://factcheck.af...fp.com%2F9UC4LE

 

 

The document cited in the articles contains nothing to indicate the vaccine was linked to deaths. The figure of 1,223 fatalities among 158,893 adverse effects reflect "spontaneous" reports from sources that include health officials in several countries, without any verification of the cause, among the millions of vaccinated people worldwide during that period, Pfizer spokeswoman Dervila Keane told AFP.

It does not indicate specific causes of death, and the fatalities may include people with "various illnesses" such as cancer or cardiovascular disease, she said.

 

A multinational, placebo-controlled, observer-blinded trial reported in the New England Journal of Medicine on December 31, 2020 showed no fatalities among vaccine or placebo recipients and stated: "The safety profile of (the shot) was characterized by short-term, mild-to-moderate pain at the injection site, fatigue, and headache. The incidence of serious adverse events was low and was similar in the vaccine and placebo groups."

A follow-up study of the vaccine's first six months of usage published on November 4, 2021 in the same medical journal showed similar results on its safety and efficacy.

The researchers found 15 fatalities among those receiving the vaccine and 14 in the placebo group. A later update found three deaths were reported among vaccine recipients and two in the placebo group.

"None of these deaths were considered to be related to BNT162b2 by the investigators," the journal said, referring to the vaccine. "Causes of death were balanced between BNT162b2 and placebo groups."

 

There is no 'hand waving'. And Pfizer doesn't do it or at least, the data is not only left up to Pfizer for us to trust. A lot of systematic reviews confirm the same thing. This vaccine is probably the most researched and scrutinized ever. It's safety profile is confirmed.

 

The fact that you are trying to claim that vaccines have probably caused cancer in your circle is ridiculous. Cancer, heart problems and sickness all existed before the vaccine and will continue after. If there is a rise in these rates, it's far more attributable to an actual infection than a vaccine. Sorry, but exactly what are your qualifications and credentials to ascertain your friends ills are a result of teh vaccine? Or is that your preconceived bias talking?

 

 

No one seems to be bothered with actual confirmed links of a multitude of cancers and diseases with smoking. Or the damage to our bodies from ingesting highly processed foods full of sugar and artificial ingredients or trans fats. Alcohol is a literal poison yet it's socially acceptable and indeed encouraged in many places - and the links of alcohol to cancers and disease is indisputable.No one seems bothered by industrial pollution despite the thousands of yearly deaths linked to it. Or how careless companies can be managing toxic waste. Europe had a massive heat wave recently that was linked to thousands of deaths - no care there, keep on denying climate change is a thing and is not getting worse.

 

Hell, a not insignificant amount of drug users would rather inject themselves with meth made in some randoms backyard then get vaccinated fearing 'safety'

 

https://burnet.edu.a...ith_figures.pdf

 

 

 

But lets keep pushing that somehow vaccine are the number one concern facing people right now despite the evidence that it has saved millions of lives and reduced the burdens on health care systems by preventing millions of hospital administrations  

 

If it were not for the vaccine - you can be sure governments would still be imposing lockdown or your health care system would collapse and you would be having millions more die - not just from covid but from a range of other issues related to a no longer functional health care system. And dont forget about the economic ruin that comes from that

 

So how about a little perspective when we are thinking of demonising a vaccine??

[Gal220]

Make of it what you will, large died suddenly group on FB

"Adding approx. 10,000 users per week. The posts are absolutely heartbreaking."

https://gettr.com/post/p1p4ztic523
 

 

Died suddenly hashtag for more examples - https://twitter.com/....=hashtag_click

 

 

3:15 into this video, Mark Steyn discusses cause unknown for deaths, and then gets into the actuary data for the US/Europe

https://twitter.com/...ped_query&f=top

Edited by Gal220, 04 September 2022 - 06:17 AM.

[shifter]

Make of it what you will, large died suddenly group on FB

"Adding approx. 10,000 users per week. The posts are absolutely heartbreaking."

https://gettr.com/post/p1p4ztic523
 

 

Died suddenly hashtag for more examples - https://twitter.com/....=hashtag_click

 

 

3:15 into this video, Mark Steyn discusses cause unknown for deaths, and then gets into the actuary data for the US/Europe

https://twitter.com/...ped_query&f=top

 

Ah, the tired trope of pushing a vaccine related death without any knowledge of what SADS is and how many it affects

 

Also, the media may be reporting more but that doesn't mean it's happening more. Only that the media has found a shtick in which it can trigger people for clicks. "Suddenly dies' is a popular headline tag. Read further into the article and you find, 'oh they killed themself'.

 

In the above case with the cyclist, it is nothing new in the sporting field. The only thing new about it is the media and tabloids pretending to care when a few years ago, they would not have bothered to mention some random from across the world dying in his sleep.

 

SADS is an issue that was here long before the covid vaccine. And will remain an issue long after

 

https://my.cleveland...-death-syndromeHow common is sudden arrhythmic death syndrome?

One of the more common types of sudden arrhythmic death syndrome, Long QT syndrome, happens in an estimated one out of 2,000 newborns. Another type, Brugada syndrome, happens in less than 1% of the population. An estimated one in 10,000 people has CPVT.

Each year, about 200,000 Americans die from sudden cardiac arrest. About 4,000 children and young adults die each year from a SADS condition.

 

Now we have social media to artificially seem like this is happening more often then when it did. 200K people in America every year dying from this. Well if the media wanted to report every 'suddenly dies' person from this issue we would be seeing ~550 articles EVERY SINGLE DAY of a 'suddenly dies' person. That's just for America. Not surprising MSM has decided to stick with just athletes....

 

 

And who is Mark Steyn and why is his opinion important. Thought by references him he might at least have some credentials in the field of medicine, biology or maybe even a statitician who could read and study the numbers. Nope. None of those. Just another commentator delving into topics he has no understanding of and broadcasting ignorance

 

https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Mark_Steyn

 

The cyclists death is a tragedy, but it's pretty safe to rule out the vaccine as 'the cause'. Funny how many armchair experts are out there who seem to know instantly what the cause of death is without a single iota of understanding about biology or medicines. Honestly it is disgusting to use such tragedies to peddle BS myths.

 

Is the rate of SADS shooting skywards now that 2/3rds of the world has been vaccinated?

 

First lets look at the age distribution of SADS to see if it affects young people

https://www.research..._fig1_334653448

 

 

Looks like it affects mostly young people. Not really a surprise

 

What is happening when the condition presents itself?

 

Seems on par with the current reports we see. Sleep/rest among the most common

 

 

 

Here is a report done on athletes deaths in the UK. This would have been compiled before the vaccine was mass rolled out to a large percentage of the population. As you can see, SADS is nothing new (it never has been)

 

https://www.ahajourn...NAHA.121.055535

 

(Manuscript received May 28, 2021)

 

 

A normal autopsy indicative of sudden arrhythmic death syndrome (SADS) was the most common finding and accounted for 56 (57%) deaths (Figure). Myocardial disease was present in 23 (23%) cases: arrhythmogenic right ventricular cardiomyopathy accounted for 7 (7%) deaths, followed by idiopathic fibrosis (n=6 [6%]), hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (n=4 [4%]), dilated cardiomyopathy (n=4 [4%]), and idiopathic left ventricular hypertrophy (n=2 [4%]). Sex comparisons revealed that although SADS was the most prevalent cause of death in both sexes, it was more common in women (57% vs 43%; P=0.008). In contrast, myocardial disease was a less common cause of SCD in women compared with men (23% vs 37%; P=0.006).

 

 

And finally, here is the UK data from the ONS. Despite an increased population and aging population, the rate of SADS seems to have gone DOWN from 2016-2021. If the vaccine really was killing people, then we should expect to see deaths in the hundreds of thousands to millions right now given millions have taken the vaccine

https://www.ons.gov....eaths2016to2021

 

No images to pull but check the link

 

 

I think anyone that is capable of thinking critically could put this whole 'vaccines killing people many months after injection' to bed. Just because there is an increase in the amount of tabloids reporting the condition, doesn't mean there is an increase in the condition. It's the tabloids way of stirring up outrage to drive clicks and eyeballs to their content. They know what currently riles up the public these days and you are falling for it.

 

Do yourselves a favour and actually looks at the stats yourself. Don't trust some random know nothing know it all on a podcast or YouTube vid. Or some gutter trash tabloid while not saying anything - is clearly trying to get YOU to insinuate a vaccine link. The tabloids here in Australia never would have reported some random cyclist from the UK dying in his sleep a few years ago. Why pretend to care now?

 

 

And still - not one antivaxxer seems to come out and be concerned about the ACTUAL virus and the damage it does. You dont get LONG INFLUENZA in almost every case because your body recovers 100%. You get LONG COVID because the virus (and your immune response) has trashed your body leaving a LOT of tissue damage including to the heart. So I would hazard a guess if anything that people may end up dying sooner than they otherwise would from all the tissue damage to critical organs. The vaccine doesn't do this. And if any of you bothered to look it up, having congenital heart defects are actually much more common and people with the condition can lead pretty normal lives totally unaware until one day, they dont.

 

Vaccines are far more tested and scrutinized than any supplement you find in a store yet billions of people take no issue with taking pills regardless if they were made in a GMP facility and believing the claims on the bottle are true and correct and worth the money.

 

Maybe we should be eyeballing supplements?

https://www.washingt...ry-supplements/

 

Oh, on this website we dont look at that. We look to tarnish and make false claims about products which SAVE lives

Edited by shifter, 05 September 2022 - 10:23 AM.

[Mind]

 

 

If it were not for the vaccine - you can be sure governments would still be imposing lockdown or your health care system would collapse and you would be having millions more die - not just from covid but from a range of other issues related to a no longer functional health care system. And dont forget about the economic ruin that comes from that

 

1. Governments are still trying to lockdown society, push mask mandates, and vaccine passports. No matter if the vaccines worked or not.

2. "Millions would have died" is counterfactual. We know that this didn't happen in Africa. We know this didn't happen in U.S. states with lax restrictions. We know this didn't happen to school kids in Sweden. It was certainly predicted by national media outlets and health bureaucrats. They said there would be mass death in these places. It didn't happen. The mortality rate among people under 60 is a tiny fraction of 1%.

3. The healthcare systems are under stress because of the COVID pandemic policies, IMO.

[Gal220]

Ed Dowd  reporting on actuary data that Mark Steyn covered above

https://gettr.com/post/p1n386z8851

 

"Below is table 5.7 from the just published Group Life Covid-19 Mortality Survey Report:

Excess Mortality By Detailed Age band

 

You can see spike in Q3-21 (mandates) and continued excess in working age groups through Q1-22. Notice that half of excess deaths in ages 25-44 are from non-Covid deaths"

 

[shifter]

1. Governments are still trying to lockdown society, push mask mandates, and vaccine passports. No matter if the vaccines worked or not.

2. "Millions would have died" is counterfactual. We know that this didn't happen in Africa. We know this didn't happen in U.S. states with lax restrictions. We know this didn't happen to school kids in Sweden. It was certainly predicted by national media outlets and health bureaucrats. They said there would be mass death in these places. It didn't happen. The mortality rate among people under 60 is a tiny fraction of 1%.

3. The healthcare systems are under stress because of the COVID pandemic policies, IMO.

 

1. Australia locked down its cities and states when covid was in single digit numbers. It was a way to crush its spread. It worked but at great societal burden. Sometimes overly zealous and ridiculously so (a lady from a state that had zero covid cases for many months was forbidden to enter another state to attend a funeral of her dad because that's states over zealous 'cant risk it' attitude. Disgusting really.

 

The vaccine provided everyone with a tool to end that madness for good. It is not and never touted as a panacea. It is just a tool. Because of its existence and because of the large take up, borders are open, shops and restaurants are doing business, everyone is happy and life is basically as it was before 'covid' was a word. The only mandate left is face masks on public transport and in places like aged care/hospitals etc. Fair enough. I wouldn't want to breath dozens of peoples coughs and spittle on a bus ride anyway. The only vaccine mandate is for health care workers which fall under the umbrella of all the other vaccine mandates they have to protect the people under their care. The government is their employer. If they say a condition of employment is vaccination - either vaccinate or get yourself another job where you can meet the conditions of employment.

 

 

2. Millions have already died - and I am talking world wide. Not millions in Sweden, millions more in America and Africa etc, but millions more around the world had there been no vaccine, no social distancing and no mitigation (eg masks) of any kind to control the pandemic. Be a conspiracy theorist about the 1+ million in America that died. Facts dont care for your bias and they are what they are. If anything the figure is an under estimation. Also China has a population pretty naive to the virus. A not as effective vaccine given quite some time ago it's no wonder the authorities are concerned about the spread. The way they are handling it is pretty ridiculous and they have really wasted an opportunity to return to normal living but squandered it. As long as covid exists somewhere in the world, China will not be able to do business as usual. However if they opened up right now and let covid run rife, they would be staring down the barrel of more than a million deaths. So what if most of them are older people? One thing you cant fault Asians for is their respect for elders. Something Western societies could do with more of.

 

And again, why only use mortality as a metric to gauge whether covid is a threat? 'Long covid' is not a fraction of 1% and destroys peoples quality of life and potentially quantity of life. Or as the administrator of a forum dedicated to "unlimited lifespan" and "to conquer the blight of involuntary death" do you not care about billions getting afflicted with a serious disease?

 

This is how many people get infected year due to influenza in Australia

 

 

Well as you can see lockdowns and social distancing do work to stop the spread of respiratory viruses and thus death. We actually had 0 deaths in 2020 and more than 1100 in 2017

 

 

https://www.worldome...ntry/australia/

 

Looking at the Worldometer website, Australia has had a total of 14078 deaths. The vast majority of them has been in 2022 since we you know, opened up towards the end of 2021. So Covid is orders of magnitude worse than the flu and certainly NOT a cold. A disproportionate amount of those who died were from people not vaccinated or vulnerable/senior people. As someone who styles himself as a guy into longevity - you would think you would give a damn over the devastation of a novel virus racking up a high kill count.

 

Understand the Law of Large Numbers. If every 330 million citizens of America got covid, unvaccinated - even a 'fraction of 1%' would be quite a high number. All involuntary deaths - and a lot of those could be prevented. And given how fast covid spreads - a lot infected at the same time WILL congest your health care facilities as it already did and many other people with non covid concerns would die also from a lack of health care (and a lack of doctors and nurses who would either be sick or might not even be alive to help them anymore). You say its a fraction of 1% for people less than 60? Tell that to the more than dozen families in Australia who have lost their child to covid....

 

Also people over the age of 60 - I find offensive that their value is diminished. They could still have decades ahead of them. Are they not worthy of care or do you think they have lived their life and their loss is not great to society? I actually dont know where antivaxxers stand on this when they talk about the chances of death for younger people and why we shouldn't concern ourselves with vaccines or masks.

 

 

Perhaps you didn't read my earlier post where in the UK, over 2 million people are suffering with 'long covid'. Suffering probably because of internal damage afflicted that may never recover completely. Is that the kind of thing you are comfortable with? 'well they didn't die so they are obviously fine!

 

 

3. I had to laugh at this BS. Tell me how exactly the policy of wearing a mask induces stress on the health care system. Or social distancing. Or vaccination - where every bit of data shows the people IN the hospital are by percentage, majority NOT vaccinated. I grant you that lockdowns have resulted in peoples stress being higher and as social animals, some of us dont adapt to isolation very well. But if Australias data is anything to go by, our deaths from almost all causes went DOWN. Where in America, they had to store the dead in refrigerated trucks as the hospitals couldn't keep up. Australias deaths due to many communicable diseases (like influenza) went to 0. Road toll from traffic accidents was also down. Deaths across the board went down. To say that hospitals had extra stress because of measures to mitigate the spread is a joke. They were under extra stress (especially in your country) because very few people cared about the mask mandate or lockdown or people like you spread fake information minimising the actual harm covid does.

 

Sars cov-2 will eventually burn itself out - either through vaccination or infection. As long as new variants dont emerge. So far BA.5 isn't being replaced. However in the past and even today, vaccination mitigates the risk to all age groups. Not just from death but from damage. Get vaccinated or dont - but dont BS the public with ignorance and disinformation because of your failure to understand how vaccines work and about human biology.

 

As of yet, you only have debunked speculative BS that the covid vaccine kills people months or even years after injection. You have no viable pathway to that conclusion. Just speculation based on ignorance, bias and a desire for an answer. That last part is understandable - when someone dies, you always want an answer. Antivaxxers have just made the vaccine a scapegoat but most of them lack any credentials or understanding of science and biology and are not worth listening to. They dont have any answers and neither do you.

Edited by shifter, 05 September 2022 - 02:42 PM.

[shifter]

Ed Dowd  reporting on actuary data that Mark Steyn covered above

https://gettr.com/post/p1n386z8851

 

"Below is table 5.7 from the just published Group Life Covid-19 Mortality Survey Report:

Excess Mortality By Detailed Age band

 

You can see spike in Q3-21 (mandates) and continued excess in working age groups through Q1-22. Notice that half of excess deaths in ages 25-44 are from non-Covid deaths"

 

 

Here is one of their reports in full. I highly advise reading the whole thing and not some snippet that some randoms paste to plug their biased viewpoints

 

https://www.soa.org/...9-mortality.pdf

 

I would look toward the end at Figure 8.2 24 and Figure 8.3 25

 

 

It seems to suggest that excess mortality rates are LOWER the HIGHER the vaccination rate.

 

But maybe that's a detail you don't want to concern yourself with. Just keep following the contrarians.

 

 

 

 

Edited by shifter, 05 September 2022 - 02:35 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

I feel it is important to start differentiating between the pre & post omicron worlds.  I'm about done rehashing the rights and wrongs of the pre-omicron SARS plague.  

 

Pre-omicron was a true Sudden Acute Respiratory Syndrome, but omicron has not been a notorious destroyer of lungs. I had omicron back in January, & developed no cough at all.  It was a viral sinus infection for me, that passed in a week to 10 days time.  

 

As long as we're re-naming things, I believe we might do well to drop the SARS from omicron SARS CoV-2, and perhaps simply call it CoV-3 coronavirus, or something similar.  

 

Yes, there are still people dying of omicron...  And influenza, and malaria, and AIDS, and bacterial and other viral pneumonia.  Cancer & heart disease are also a plague in the geriatric community.  

 

Regarding the vaccine issue (on topic!), those still running around like their hair is on fire, screaming "everyone must get boosted!  It's the only way we're going to end the pandemic!" are starting to look a bit foolish.  Omicron is an endemic flu-like virus that can not be stopped through mass vaccination.  Get boosted if you wish, but you are not providing a vital community service by doing so.  

 

Mistakes were made during the pre-omicron SARS pandemic.  I can forgive them, but would also like to see some reparations.  Back off with the public emergency measures, and let's all try to breath a little freedom for a change.  

[Gal220]

Here is one of their reports in full. I highly advise reading the whole thing and not some snippet that some randoms paste to plug their biased viewpoints

 

https://www.soa.org/...9-mortality.pdf

 

I would look toward the end at Figure 8.2 24 and Figure 8.3 25

 

 

It seems to suggest that excess mortality rates are LOWER the HIGHER the vaccination rate.

 

But maybe that's a detail you don't want to concern yourself with. Just keep following the contrarians.

 

Those tables do not look at age bracketed data

[shifter]

Those tables do not look at age bracketed data

 

The trend of excess deaths goes down the higher the rate of vaccines given.

 

I am curious what leap of logic you use to say that vaccines cause sudden death months to years post injection?

 

Why a vaccine and certainly NOT a sars cov2 infection?

 

 

If a vaccine was going to kill you, it wouldn't wait years to do it.

 

Also excess death data can be pretty creative as we saw John Campbell try to do with the Australian statistics who used total deaths and not rate of deaths (so he did not take into account an aging and increased population). Pretty sneaky and dishonest. You can read all about excess deaths in Australia here

 

https://www.abs.gov....vid-19-pandemic

 

 

Excess deaths has not been an issue here (it was worse in 2017 but no mRNA vaccine to speak of!) and if antivaxxers were correct, Australians should be dropping like flies. We powered our way to 90% vaccinated and my own city has ~99% of eligible adult population vaccinated. So why aren't we dying? It looks to me the countries with the bigger problems are the ones that had much higher infection rates, especially at the start of the pandemic. A fate Australia avoided.

 

But do explain your leap in how vaccines kill people years after injection......

Edited by shifter, 05 September 2022 - 04:15 PM.

[shifter]

I feel it is important to start differentiating between the pre & post omicron worlds.  I'm about done rehashing the rights and wrongs of the pre-omicron SARS plague.  

 

Pre-omicron was a true Sudden Acute Respiratory Syndrome, but omicron has not been a notorious destroyer of lungs. I had omicron back in January, & developed no cough at all.  It was a viral sinus infection for me, that passed in a week to 10 days time.  

 

As long as we're re-naming things, I believe we might do well to drop the SARS from omicron SARS CoV-2, and perhaps simply call it CoV-3 coronavirus, or something similar.  

 

Yes, there are still people dying of omicron...  And influenza, and malaria, and AIDS, and bacterial and other viral pneumonia.  Cancer & heart disease are also a plague in the geriatric community.  

 

Regarding the vaccine issue (on topic!), those still running around like their hair is on fire, screaming "everyone must get boosted!  It's the only way we're going to end the pandemic!" are starting to look a bit foolish.  Omicron is an endemic flu-like virus that can not be stopped through mass vaccination.  Get boosted if you wish, but you are not providing a vital community service by doing so.  

 

Mistakes were made during the pre-omicron SARS pandemic.  I can forgive them, but would also like to see some reparations.  Back off with the public emergency measures, and let's all try to breath a little freedom for a change.  

 

Misconception. Omicron is still dangerous and still associated with getting long/permanent covid symptoms. Most of the 14K deaths in Australia has been in just in 2022 which isn't over yet and our 'bad' influenza years sees only a fraction of that in deaths. It is also affecting a lot of children and giving rise to increased incidences of Multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children (MIS-C).

 

The initial goal of the pandemic was always to 'slow the spread' - nobody ever really expected to stop it. We slow the spread so that health care systems dont reach capacity and break ensuring a bad outcome for everyone. Omicron through its insane r0 value means even if the CFR is lower, the number it infects is high enough that an even greater amount of people will end up needing a hospital.

 

 

Omicron may also be 'milder' because the population where it has spread has already been vaccinated or had a previous infection. A country like China could be devastated by an uncontrolled outbreak. Densely populated areas and naive immune systems to a novel virus and a not as effective vaccine as the mRNA ones given quite some time ago. A city like Shanghai that is dense enough it has the population of Australia - if omicron ripped through there you can be sure there would be a lot of sickness and deaths and the hospitals would be overwhelmed with everyone infected almost all at once

 

It is NOT endemic everywhere and is NOT 'flu like'. It still is much worse than the flu. Using your own personal anecdote is silly and not an insignificant amount of people get over it. The flu also doesn't leave a lot of people with scars all over their vital organs

 

Every data anyone cares to look at shows the vaccines have been a success in preventing death and hospitalisation. That is simply an indisputable fact that maybe some people dont want to believe. If you dont want to believe it or take the vaccine yourself, whatever. But I take issue with the lies and BS being spread about it in an attempt to prevent others from making an informed choice. It's also sad to see someone make a choice based purely on BS and then later lose their life because of it.

 

Spreading lies and BS during a pandemic, dissuading people from taking measures to slow the spread of a serious virus or mitigate the harm is disgusting. These contrarians and charlatans literally have blood on their hands.

 

 

 

[Dorian Grey]

A few pointless & time wasting fun facts on over-vaccination.  There are some similarities between the COVID & flu jabs.  Neither offers reliable protection against infection or transmission, and interestingly...  Frequent boosting appears to degrade effectiveness even further.  

 

https://www.cidrap.u...effects-2014-15

 

Study: Prior-year vaccination cut flu vaccine effects in 2014-15  

 

"In the 2014-15 influenza season, when seasonal flu vaccines performed unusually poorly overall, people who had not been vaccinated the previous year were the ones most likely to benefit from the vaccine, whereas those who were vaccinated 2 years in a row did not"

 

"In an even more unusual finding, people who were vaccinated 3 years in a row—in the 2012-13, 2013-14, and 2014-15 seasons—appeared to have a higher risk of being infected with the dominant flu strain in the latter season"

 

"Scientists can't explain the apparent negative effects of "serial vaccination."

 

https://www.cidrap.u...ccines-benefits

 

Studies shed light on effects of serial flu shots, current vaccine's benefits

 

"A number of previous studies have raised the possibility that consecutive-year flu vaccination may sometimes backfire, resulting in reduced VE the second year"

 

"Researchers use the term "antigenic distance hypothesis" (ADH) to describe the possible negative effects of serial flu vaccination. The hypothesis, according to the JID report, predicts that a prior season's influenza vaccine may interfere negatively with the effectiveness of the current season's vaccine when the difference, or antigenic distance, between the two vaccines is small but the difference between the vaccine strains and the current epidemic strain is large."

 

-------------------------

 

Keep gettin' those boosters if you must, but do try not to confuse your immune system so badly that it stops functioning.  If we wind up with another dangerous variant this winter, a warp speed booster could not only offer little protection, but a "negative effectiveness" phenomenon may put you in a bad place.  

 

Vaccinosis...  It's not just for animals anymore.  

[shifter]

You can not predict when you get Influenza. If you are in a high risk group where Influenza has a real risk of killing you, it may be better to take it then not. You cant predict which year is the year you get it.

 

I personally dont bother with flu vaccines and I've maybe only had it a few times in my 40 years of life. My work environment and social life dont put me in a high risk of even contracting it in the first place or spread to vulnerable people if I do. I can count the number of times on one hand that I've bothered to get it

 

 

Getting vaccinated wont 'stop your immune system from functioning'. That language is ridiculous. You might as well say vaccinations causes AIDS.

 

 

This is Australias recommendations for for people to get a 4th shot

• Adults aged 65 years and older
• Residents of aged care or disability care facilities
• People aged 16 years and older with severe immunocompromise (as defined in the  ATAGI statement on the use of a 3rd primary dose of COVID-19 vaccine in individuals who are severely immunocompromised)
• Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people aged 50 years and older.

 

The data still backs it up that they will get increased protection from serious disease - not less. As a healthy and fit 40 year old do I need a 4th shot ASAP? No. Perhaps later this year I will get the bivalent one if I am going to take a plane and go on holiday. It wont make my protection worse and will be at least 9 months since the last.

 

https://www.tandfonl...84.2022.2071705

A good read in what you talked about. Its conclusion

 

Resistance associated with prophylactic use of the vaccine is less likely than the commonly encountered drug resistance [39]. There is also evidence showing that despite microbial evolution, the original vaccine can still be able to exert the necessary protection. The recombinant Varicella zoster vaccine is generated against the viral glycoprotein E as an antigen that provides protection to all genotypes; surprisingly, vaccine effectiveness was not compromised with subsequent viral mutations. Of relevance, Varicella zoster virus infection is higher among elderly individuals, immunocompromised patients, and transplant patients [40]. Similarly, the genotype-specific recombinant L1 protein is used to generate a human papillomavirus vaccine; however, viral mutations affecting L1 protein did not significantly reduce the vaccine effectiveness [41,42].

 

Evaluation of vaccination history is essential to determine the likely vaccine effectiveness [43]. Vaccine resistance is not universal and has not been documented in some vaccines used successfully for decades (e.g. measles, smallpox). Although there is abundant evidence that repeated use of antimicrobial drugs frequently induces drug resistance [39,44,45], the risk of repeated vaccination is less clear. The mechanisms of vaccine exhaustion and consequent reduced protection against microbial infection require further study. Existing evidence suggests that several factors may contribute to reduced vaccine effectiveness, including repeated vaccination, microbial evolution, immune suppression, and immune evasion (Figure 1) [46]. Also, in some cases, additional doses neither increase nor decrease protection. In such cases, the balance of risk and potential benefit may contraindicate booster vaccinations.

 

 

A major concern related to the emergence of vaccine-resistant SARS-CoV-2 strains is the increased transmissibility, with potential adverse effects on morbidity and mortality [47]. To combat vaccine-resistant strains, multivalent vaccines, which would become effective against several lineages, may be needed [48]. The long-term consequences of ongoing, repeated vaccination campaigns against COVID-19 for viral ecology and viral mutations inducing vaccine resistance need further clinical evaluation.

 

 

 

Edited by shifter, 05 September 2022 - 06:33 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

You can not predict when you get Influenza. If you are in a high risk group where Influenza has a real risk of killing you, it may be better to take it then not. You cant predict which year is the year you get it.

 

I personally dont bother with flu vaccines and I've maybe only had it a few times in my 40 years of life. My work environment and social life dont put me in a high risk of even contracting it in the first place or spread to vulnerable people if I do. I can count the number of times on one hand that I've bothered to get it

 

 

Getting vaccinated wont 'stop your immune system from functioning'. That language is ridiculous. You might as well say vaccinations causes AIDS.

 

 

This is Australias recommendations for for people to get a 4th shot

• Adults aged 65 years and older
• Residents of aged care or disability care facilities
• People aged 16 years and older with severe immunocompromise (as defined in the  ATAGI statement on the use of a 3rd primary dose of COVID-19 vaccine in individuals who are severely immunocompromised)
• Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people aged 50 years and older.

 

The data still backs it up that they will get increased protection from serious disease - not less. As a healthy and fit 40 year old do I need a 4th shot ASAP? No. Perhaps later this year I will get the bivalent one if I am going to take a plane and go on holiday. It wont make my protection worse and will be at least 9 months since the last.

 

https://www.tandfonl...84.2022.2071705

A good read in what you talked about. Its conclusion

 

Resistance associated with prophylactic use of the vaccine is less likely than the commonly encountered drug resistance [39]. There is also evidence showing that despite microbial evolution, the original vaccine can still be able to exert the necessary protection. The recombinant Varicella zoster vaccine is generated against the viral glycoprotein E as an antigen that provides protection to all genotypes; surprisingly, vaccine effectiveness was not compromised with subsequent viral mutations. Of relevance, Varicella zoster virus infection is higher among elderly individuals, immunocompromised patients, and transplant patients [40]. Similarly, the genotype-specific recombinant L1 protein is used to generate a human papillomavirus vaccine; however, viral mutations affecting L1 protein did not significantly reduce the vaccine effectiveness [41,42].

 

Evaluation of vaccination history is essential to determine the likely vaccine effectiveness [43]. Vaccine resistance is not universal and has not been documented in some vaccines used successfully for decades (e.g. measles, smallpox). Although there is abundant evidence that repeated use of antimicrobial drugs frequently induces drug resistance [39,44,45], the risk of repeated vaccination is less clear. The mechanisms of vaccine exhaustion and consequent reduced protection against microbial infection require further study. Existing evidence suggests that several factors may contribute to reduced vaccine effectiveness, including repeated vaccination, microbial evolution, immune suppression, and immune evasion (Figure 1) [46]. Also, in some cases, additional doses neither increase nor decrease protection. In such cases, the balance of risk and potential benefit may contraindicate booster vaccinations.

 

 

A major concern related to the emergence of vaccine-resistant SARS-CoV-2 strains is the increased transmissibility, with potential adverse effects on morbidity and mortality [47]. To combat vaccine-resistant strains, multivalent vaccines, which would become effective against several lineages, may be needed [48]. The long-term consequences of ongoing, repeated vaccination campaigns against COVID-19 for viral ecology and viral mutations inducing vaccine resistance need further clinical evaluation.

 

"Getting vaccinated wont 'stop your immune system from functioning'. That language is ridiculous"

 

Perhaps so, but getting the flu jab may increase your risk of contracting coronavirus by 36%.  

 

https://childrenshea...s-equal-health/

 

Pentagon Study: Flu Shot Raises Risk of Coronavirus by 36% (and Other Supporting Studies)

 

"“Receiving influenza vaccination may increase the risk of other respiratory viruses, a phenomenon known as “virus interference…’vaccine derived’ virus interference was significantly associated with coronavirus"

[shifter]

"Getting vaccinated wont 'stop your immune system from functioning'. That language is ridiculous"

 

Perhaps so, but getting the flu jab may increase your risk of contracting coronavirus by 36%.  

 

https://childrenshea...s-equal-health/

 

Pentagon Study: Flu Shot Raises Risk of Coronavirus by 36% (and Other Supporting Studies)

 

"“Receiving influenza vaccination may increase the risk of other respiratory viruses, a phenomenon known as “virus interference…’vaccine derived’ virus interference was significantly associated with coronavirus"

 

lol

 

https://en.wikipedia..._Health_Defense

 

Children's Health Defense is an American 501©(3) nonprofit activist group mainly known for anti-vaccine propaganda and has been identified as one of the main sources of misinformation on vaccines.^{[1][2][3][4][5][6]} Founded under the name World Mercury Project in 2011, it is chaired by Robert F. Kennedy Jr.^[7][8] The group has been campaigning against various public health programs, such as vaccination and fluoridation of drinking water.^[9] The group has been contributing to vaccine hesitancy in the United States, encouraging citizens and legislators to support anti-vaccine regulations and legislation.^[10][11][12] Arguments against vaccination are contradicted by overwhelming scientific consensus about the safety and effectiveness of vaccines.

 

Children's Health Defense claims that the United States government seeks to harm ethnic minorities by prioritizing them for COVID vaccines. The conspiracy theory is elaborated upon in an hour-long video production released in March 2021 by Children's Health Defense and Kennedy, along with recycled anti-vaccination stories about autism, Bill Gates and the Centers for Disease Control. Like other such conspiracy theory videos, it inserts true historical events into its narrative to make its fantastic claims appear more believable.^[1][33]

In step with the QAnon movement, their Instagram promotes the "Great Reset" theory and identifies "Big Pharma" as part of "the real deep state".^[3]

 

 

 

Do you have anything out of a medical journal and actual research to back up this theory or do you trust this organisation? If you dont, that's cool, I'll find some that no doubt debunks it when I come back to work tomorrow for you

 

Also, take a look at the date of that link of yours. April 2020. Given how little covid was back then the idea that a study could work out a percentage of risk should be a red flag it's BS

Edited by shifter, 05 September 2022 - 08:36 PM.