• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
* * * * - 4 votes

Regarding the vaccines, I think this is a question we All should be asking as members of a longevity-promoting website.

coronavirus

  • Please log in to reply
2090 replies to this topic

#691 Daniel Cooper

  • Member, Moderator
  • 2,699 posts
  • 642
  • Location:USA

Posted 21 January 2023 - 05:11 PM

That's partially true but it's still only half of the truth and a common misconception which is sometimes used to fear-monger so I would like to explain this in more detail:

 

Influenza and corona viruses mutate rapidly and as such they can evolve quickly enough to re-infect people. Coronavirus reinfections of common cold viruses happen every couple for years on average for each variant.

 

Our bodies however are not helpless against these infections. We do have several types of immune defenses and immune memories can be long-lasting.

 

What happens is that we develop partially immunity against them that can last a long time or even a lifetime but does not protect completely that's why we get re-infected but do usually only get mild disease.

 

Children get exposed early in life when they are less vulnerable and better equipped to handle these types of infections and once they are exposed their immune system retains a memory that lasts a lifetime.

 

If an adult got exposed to a common influenza virus for the first time in their life they would develop unusually severe disease for an influenza virus since the immune system had no previous experience with this type of infection. After the first infection they would also have acquired lasting immune memory.

 

Further exposure would result in less severe disease.

 

This is seen in isolated tribespeople who never had contact with the outside world. Exposing them to harmless common cold or influenza virus can result in serious epidemics with many of them dying because they lacked immune memory from childhood when first time exposure would have been much safer.

 

The difference between life and death in this scenario is immune memory. When covid-19 was introduced to the world we were all tribespeople because we lacked immunity from childhood exposure.

 

So the idea that we don't develop immunity against these infections is not true in the sense that we do develop immunity against disease but not against re-infections so it's not a 100% immunity as seen with other diseases but it's far from zero.

 

Immunity is quite powerful in that regard: If you have been exposed to a common coronavirus as a child it's a common cold. If you haven't been exposed it could kill you. The only reason why flu or the common cold is usually harmless is that we already have immunity against it.

 

I don't disagree with most of what you're saying but you aren't thinking of how this applies to the current mRNA vaccines.

 

We are giving vaccines that only express a single aspect of the virus to the immune system - the spike protein.

 

Yes, we have immune systems with a number of mechanisms and we can develop many tiers of immunity - many of which only confer an ability to fight an infection without giving full immunity. But this is highly useful.

 

But when you give a vaccine that only expresses a single aspect of a virus - much of this multifaceted immune response is not in play.

 

Actually getting the virus will indeed confer broad based immunity and some of it will be durable and useful long term. And a vaccine that used killed virus or more complete components of the viral shell would come much closer to achieving that sort of immunity. But this idea of picking one or two proteins and using that to generate an immune response is relatively new and does not seem to be working so well in the case of covid. If the HHS Secretary's suggestion of getting a booster if it's been two months since your last is to be taken at face value then we'll all be getting six vaccines per year. Never in the history of medicine has anyone thought that was a viable approach.

 

 


  • Well Written x 1

#692 healthmysteries31

  • Guest
  • 34 posts
  • 22
  • Location:Planet Earth
  • NO

Posted 21 January 2023 - 05:40 PM

I don't disagree with most of what you're saying but you aren't thinking of how this applies to the current mRNA vaccines

 

 

I didn't intend to make this statement in the context of vaccination, I only made it to explain that claims that we can't develop immunity to coronaviruses are false.

 

Early in the pandemic there was a lot of fear that was created with claims that if we didn't manage to develop a vaccine the pandemic would never go away because we couldn't develop immunity against coronaviruses.

 

Vaccination and infection are not the same and infection will likely lead to a broader and more durable immune response. I don't know if vaccination can be a substitute for  first time viral exposure but I would at least be skeptical.


Edited by healthmysteries31, 21 January 2023 - 05:42 PM.

  • Ill informed x 1
  • Agree x 1

#693 Daniel Cooper

  • Member, Moderator
  • 2,699 posts
  • 642
  • Location:USA

Posted 21 January 2023 - 05:58 PM

I didn't intend to make this statement in the context of vaccination, I only made it to explain that claims that we can't develop immunity to coronaviruses are false.

 

Early in the pandemic there was a lot of fear that was created with claims that if we didn't manage to develop a vaccine the pandemic would never go away because we couldn't develop immunity against coronaviruses.

 

Vaccination and infection are not the same and infection will likely lead to a broader and more durable immune response. I don't know if vaccination can be a substitute for  first time viral exposure but I would at least be skeptical.

 

I'm going to disagree with that word I have underlined above.

 

We indeed can't develop immunity to coronaviruses in general. Not in the way we can develop an immunity to smallpox or mumps.

 

We can have a primed immune system that can mount a much more aggressive defense against these viruses than a what a naive immune system can generally accomplish. So you get less sick, recover more quickly, etc. etc. But you aren't necessarily going to be immune as in never achieving a significant viral load or not showing symptoms.

 

Very good things, but falling somewhat short of "immunity".

 

BTW - your point about the problem of being first infected with this particular coronavirus in adulthood or old age being much more problematic than getting your first exposure as a child when you can develop an immune response with a very low probability of becoming severely ill is well taken. In fact I was making this point about two years ago  ;).

 

Imagine if you had a human population on an island somewhere that had never seen the handful of coronaviruses that cause 30% of the common colds.  Then one day someone with a cold lands on that island and they all get infected. I can image you might see some very serious illnesses and maybe even some deaths.



#694 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,336 posts
  • 2,001
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 21 January 2023 - 06:09 PM

I didn't intend to make this statement in the context of vaccination, I only made it to explain that claims that we can't develop immunity to coronaviruses are false.

 

Early in the pandemic there was a lot of fear that was created with claims that if we didn't manage to develop a vaccine the pandemic would never go away because we couldn't develop immunity against coronaviruses.

 

Vaccination and infection are not the same and infection will likely lead to a broader and more durable immune response. I don't know if vaccination can be a substitute for  first time viral exposure but I would at least be skeptical.

 

Not too far back in many of these forum discussions you would have been ridiculed and harassed as an anti-vax conspiracy nut for stating people can develop natural immunity to coronaviruses and that natural immunity is more durable and robust.

 

The mocking and ridicule continues to this day in some quarters, even though there is (and has been for a long time) high quality evidence that natural immunity is far superior to the mRNA injections.

 

________________________________

 

In addition anyone who brought up the fact that there were significant side effects that came along with the mRNA injections was thoroughly mocked and met with blistering rage - even though there was long-term peer-reviewed evidence from mRNA trials several years ago... and in the COVID trials - that some people were suffering significant side effects. Now public "health" agencies are starting to acknowledge side effects. The UK health service lists heart problems as a side effect. If you highlight these well known facts and tell people it is something to watch out for when weighing your health decisions - you are labeled a KILLER.

 

We really have no clue how widespread the side effects and deaths from the mRNA injections are because hospitals are barely even asking about it. A nurse friend of mine says they never ask any patients at the hospital about their COVID injection status. This nurse reports the same thing. As far as I can ascertain, there isn't even and ICD10 code for logging COVID injection side effects or deaths.

 

Meanwhile, fatal heart attacks are surging to unheard of levels in Australia, but they are rushing to assure everyone it absolutely has nothing to do with the COVID injections....even though there are plenty of case studies and peer-reviewed studies showing heart problems and that a few fatal heart attacks have been caused by the COVID injections.

 

Elon Musk revealed today that he and one of his family members suffered severe side effects from the COVID injections.


  • Good Point x 1
  • Informative x 1

#695 healthmysteries31

  • Guest
  • 34 posts
  • 22
  • Location:Planet Earth
  • NO

Posted 21 January 2023 - 08:31 PM

 

Elon Musk revealed today that he and one of his family members suffered severe side effects from the COVID injections.

 

I have read that. I don't know if he was trolling or not but this is a very common experience. I had the same experience. People I had known for many years have developed heart damage from the shot.


  • like x 1

#696 Hip

  • Guest
  • 2,402 posts
  • -449
  • Location:UK

Posted 21 January 2023 - 09:31 PM

Our bodies however are not helpless against these infections. We do have several types of immune defenses and immune memories can be long-lasting.

 

What happens is that we develop partially immunity against them that can last a long time or even a lifetime but does not protect completely that's why we get re-infected but do usually only get mild disease.

 

What you say I believe is generally true. Natural infection with viruses can lead to increased levels of immunity to that virus.

 

And also natural immunity is good at eliciting T-cell immunity, which has broader effects than B-cell immunity (B-cell immunity = antibody immunity). When a natural infection elicits T-cell immunity, that can often provide future protection to not only the same virus, should you catch it again, but also provide broad protection against similar viruses from the same genus. So natural immunity can often have good effects. 

 

 

However, the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus seems to buck this trend: it's been found that your chances of dying the second time you catch COVID are increased twofold compared to the first time you caught COVID. 

 

So rather than COVID infection leading to natural immunity, the opposite seems to happen: prior infection with COVID seems to weaken immunity against subsequent COVID infection. 

 

 

Why that is the case is hard to say. But I wonder if the first COVID infection leaves traces of virus in all the organs (post-mortem studies have observed this), and so when the second COVID infection comes along, it has a head start, because the virus from the first infection is still widespread in the organs (although likely at low levels). 

 

There have also been studies showing that after natural infection with COVID, the immune system is left in a long-term state of disarray, with persistent T-cell and B-cell dysregulation lasting for 8 months after even mild to moderate COVID infection.

 

So natural immunity does not occur in the immediate aftermath of a COVID infection.

 

Natural COVID infection does not strengthen immunity, but screws with your immune system (at least for 8 months afterwards).

 

 

 

So if natural infection with COVID makes your immunity weaker (at least for 8 months), and if too many mRNA booster shots also start to weaken antibody immunity (by this IgG class shifting to IgG4 which has been recently reported), then things aren't looking too great. 


Edited by Hip, 21 January 2023 - 09:37 PM.

  • Pointless, Timewasting x 1
  • Agree x 1

#697 healthmysteries31

  • Guest
  • 34 posts
  • 22
  • Location:Planet Earth
  • NO

Posted 21 January 2023 - 09:58 PM

However, the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus seems to buck this trend: it's been found that your chances of dying the second time you catch COVID are increased twofold compared to the first time you caught COVID

 

 

I don't think that can generally assumed to be true. There are many studies that found the opposite. 

example:

https://www.scienced...16344532200010X

 

Prior SARS-CoV-2 infection was associated with lower odds of dying, and both prior infection and immunisation showed a protective effect against severe disease in selected populations. Older age, sex and underlying comorbidities appeared as principal risk factors for illness severity at reinfection.

 

 

Some studies found up to 90% reduction of severe disease after reinfection. 

 

I think in that study you linked to they didn't even look at covid disease per se but did a long term follow up of various health conditions and looked if frequently infected people had  a higher risk of developing them. Looks like that's a bit different than what we were discussing here and does not tells us much about whether or not immunity was developed.

 

Anecdotally people also tend to do better after a second infection and experience milder disease even though there are some cases where this is not the case.


Edited by healthmysteries31, 21 January 2023 - 10:07 PM.

  • Good Point x 1

#698 Daniel Cooper

  • Member, Moderator
  • 2,699 posts
  • 642
  • Location:USA

Posted 21 January 2023 - 10:06 PM

So if natural infection with COVID makes your immunity weaker (at least for 8 months), and if too many mRNA booster shots also start to weaken antibody immunity (by this IgG class shifting to IgG4 which has been recently reported), then things aren't looking too great. 

 

Maybe the focus should be redirected to anti-virals and monoclonal antibodies.

 

But of course Dr. Fauci is a vaccine man, as his history of his handling of the HIV pandemic bears out.

 

Maybe with a changing of the guard there is some opportunity for this change in gears. The problem is that the federal health bureaucracy is awfully wedded to these vaccines and no longer seems to be thinking in purely rational scientific terms, as the impetus to vaccinate small children and bi-monthly boosters seems to indicate.

 

In any case, we shouldn't be too downcast. The CFR and IFR of covid-19 has been falling and will continue to fall. Even if you do nothing this pandemic will pass. As every prior pandemic in human history has done before.


Edited by Daniel Cooper, 22 January 2023 - 04:04 AM.

  • Good Point x 1

#699 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,336 posts
  • 2,001
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 21 January 2023 - 10:20 PM

What you say I believe is generally true. Natural infection with viruses can lead to increased levels of immunity to that virus.

 

And also natural immunity is good at eliciting T-cell immunity, which has broader effects than B-cell immunity (B-cell immunity = antibody immunity). When a natural infection elicits T-cell immunity, that can often provide future protection to not only the same virus, should you catch it again, but also provide broad protection against similar viruses from the same genus. So natural immunity can often have good effects. 

 

 

However, the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus seems to buck this trend: it's been found that your chances of dying the second time you catch COVID are increased twofold compared to the first time you caught COVID. 

 

So rather than COVID infection leading to natural immunity, the opposite seems to happen: prior infection with COVID seems to weaken immunity against subsequent COVID infection. 

 

 

Why that is the case is hard to say. But I wonder if the first COVID infection leaves traces of virus in all the organs (post-mortem studies have observed this), and so when the second COVID infection comes along, it has a head start, because the virus from the first infection is still widespread in the organs (although likely at low levels). 

 

There have also been studies showing that after natural infection with COVID, the immune system is left in a long-term state of disarray, with persistent T-cell and B-cell dysregulation lasting for 8 months after even mild to moderate COVID infection.

 

So natural immunity does not occur in the immediate aftermath of a COVID infection.

 

Natural COVID infection does not strengthen immunity, but screws with your immune system (at least for 8 months afterwards).

 

 

 

So if natural infection with COVID makes your immunity weaker (at least for 8 months), and if too many mRNA booster shots also start to weaken antibody immunity (by this IgG class shifting to IgG4 which has been recently reported), then things aren't looking too great. 

 

Something seems wrong with this study. I suspect it will be retracted at some point in the future. I read through it but did not have time to comb through the supplementary data.

 

There have been dozens of studies, including this one, finding long-lasting natural immunity.

 

This study also claims the COVID injection and boosters do NOT provide ANY protection if you are re-infected, which runs against what every "health" bureaucracy around the world is claiming.

 

You also have personal experience. Everyone discussing their COVID experiences here in the forum has reported the 2nd infection being less severe than the first. Same with me. Same with everyone I know.


  • Informative x 1

#700 Hip

  • Guest
  • 2,402 posts
  • -449
  • Location:UK

Posted 22 January 2023 - 12:07 AM

I don't think that can generally assumed to be true. There are many studies that found the opposite. 

example:

https://www.scienced...16344532200010X

 

There must be some explanation for the discrepancy between the study you posted finding a protective effect from prior COVID infection, and the study I posted which found that prior infection predisposes to a more severe risk of death from subsequent COVID infection.

 

Perhaps the duration of the studies can explain it: your study was conducted with COVID cases from Jan 2020 to May 2021 (17 months duration). My study was from Mar 2020 to June 2022 (26 months duration). So in my study, there may have been a long timer between infection and reinfection, meaning that the protective immunity from the first infection may have waned more. 

 

 

 

Also, if we consider when omicron became dominant, that was around December 2021. So your study was conducted before omicron, when the dominant virus was delta, and the reinfection would have been with delta also. Whereas in my study, this continued into the omicron era, so you might have had patients first infected with delta, and then the second infection was with omicron. Well it's been shown that prior infection with delta offers little protection from omicron


  • Pointless, Timewasting x 1
  • Good Point x 1

#701 Daniel Cooper

  • Member, Moderator
  • 2,699 posts
  • 642
  • Location:USA

Posted 22 January 2023 - 04:18 AM

You also have personal experience. Everyone discussing their COVID experiences here in the forum has reported the 2nd infection being less severe than the first. Same with me. Same with everyone I know.

 

You have to be careful with anecdotes but I also know a person that has had covid at least 3-4 times now. His first infection was the worst and subsequent infections have been less severe.

 

In fact, of all the people that I know personally that have had covid more than once, I can't recall one that reported that the subsequent infections were worse than the initial.

 

Of course, I guess the situation could be that the vast majority don't experience more severe reinfections but a small fraction are dying.
 


  • Good Point x 1

#702 healthmysteries31

  • Guest
  • 34 posts
  • 22
  • Location:Planet Earth
  • NO

Posted 22 January 2023 - 08:35 AM

There must be some explanation for the discrepancy between the study you posted finding a protective effect from prior COVID infection, and the study I posted which found that prior infection predisposes to a more severe risk of death from subsequent COVID infection.

 

 

the explanation is likely that your study does not tell us much about reinfection severity since it is more concerned with post infection sequele over a  6 month period and complications not disease severity per se.

 

It's the media who then grabs studies like this one and publishes a lot of clickbait headlines that misrepresent the findings and gives those studies a lot of exposure while other studies are ignored.

 

Also, if we consider when omicron became dominant, that was around December 2021. So your study was conducted before omicron, when the dominant virus was delta, and the reinfection would have been with delta also. Whereas in my study, this continued into the omicron era, so you might have had patients first infected with delta, and then the second infection was with omicron. Well it's been shown that prior infection with delta offers little protection from omicron

 

 

Studies show protection against disease for omicron as well

 

https://jamanetwork....article/2797311

 

 

In this test-negative case-control study with 696 439 participants aged 12 years and older, prior non-Omicron SARS-CoV-2 infection was associated with 44% and 81% reductions in the risk of Omicron infection and associated hospitalization

 

I mean I hear people saying the second infection was milder far more often than people saying the second infection was more severe. So I don't know how that would work. People would notice if the second infection was more severe. 
 
It also does not make  a lot of sense since that would also mean vaccines couldn't work or would stop working quickly and since re-uptake of boosters is not very high we would not only see the pandemic return but we would then see even bigger pandemics and more deaths than we had seen with delta which is not the case.
 
So I think it's not happening but the media just loves to give selective exposure to doom headlines which generate  a lot of attention.

  • Well Written x 1

#703 Hip

  • Guest
  • 2,402 posts
  • -449
  • Location:UK

Posted 22 January 2023 - 03:54 PM

the explanation is likely that your study does not tell us much about reinfection severity since it is more concerned with post infection sequele over a  6 month period and complications not disease severity per se.

 

The study I posted does refer to death; it says: "compared to no reinfection, reinfection contributed additional risks of death (hazard ratio (HR) = 2.17".
 

 

Studies show protection against disease for omicron as well
 
https://jamanetwork....article/2797311

 

With these things, there is often a range of different results from different studies; factors such as vaccine status, age group and time between infection and reinfection probably give you different results in terms of how much protection there is.

 

 

One thing is for sure though, even if if previous COVID infection offers some protection from death with subsequent COVID reinfections, the natural immunity from previous COVID infections is very weak.

 

With other viruses, like influenza or EBV, a prior infection would completely protect you for life from ever getting that same viral infection again. 

 

For example, once you have caught Epstein-Barr virus (EBV), the virus which causes mononucleosis, you are almost 100% guaranteed never to get EBV mono for the rest of your life. Once you've caught EBV, you have lifetime protection from any reinfection. Most people catch EBV in their teens or 20s, with 90% of adults having EBV antibodies, indicating prior infection,

 

 

But this is not the case with coronavirus. Coronavirus does not produce much natural immunity. Although some studies suggest prior coronavirus infection can make subsequent infections milder, you nevertheless still get those subsequent infections. You are not protected from getting reinfection.

 

So prior infection with coronavirus does not protect you from getting this virus again. Indeed, some people have reported getting COVID again just a few months after a previous COVID infection.

 

 

Natural immunity from prior coronavirus infection is weak, and that unfortunately means this pandemic will not go away, because people will keep getting reinfected with COVID, and once reinfected, will pass the virus onto others, thus sustaining the pandemic. 

 

This sharply contrasts to influenza pandemics, like the famous Spanish flu H1N1 pandemic of 1918-1919, where once you caught the flu virus, you were completely immune from reinfection for the rest of your life. And that's why the Spanish flu pandemic died out completely after everyone acquired herd immunity, after a couple of years of this flu virus circulating around the globe.

 

It's very unfortunate that coronavirus only produces very weak natural immunity, otherwise the COVID pandemic would have been over by now, because most people at this stage have caught COVID. 

 

 

 

 

 

 
 


Edited by Hip, 22 January 2023 - 04:00 PM.

  • Pointless, Timewasting x 1

#704 healthmysteries31

  • Guest
  • 34 posts
  • 22
  • Location:Planet Earth
  • NO

Posted 22 January 2023 - 06:48 PM

The study I posted does refer to death; it says: "compared to no reinfection, reinfection contributed additional risks of death (hazard ratio (HR) = 2.17".

 

 

This is all-cause mortality over  a 6 month period not death from covid from what I understand.

 

With other viruses, like influenza or EBV, a prior infection would completely protect you for life from ever getting that same viral infection again. 

 

 

Not sure what you mean but you can get influenza annually it's not different than coronaviruses in that regard. For common corona viruses you tend to get them every couple of years like influenza. Influenza infection does not protect you against re-infection with influenza. You can't develop sterilizing immunity against it because it's a moving target and constantly mutating.

 

 

This sharply contrasts to influenza pandemics, like the famous Spanish flu H1N1 pandemic of 1918-1919, where once you caught the flu virus, you were completely immune from reinfection for the rest of your life. And that's why the Spanish flu pandemic died out completely after everyone acquired herd immunity, after a couple of years of this flu virus

 

 

 

The spanish flu never really died. It's descendants are circulating today and infect us every year. It became part of seasonal influenza.

 

Human coronavirus OC43 one  of the common cold viruses that infect us is believed to have been originated from the 1890 russian flu pandemic.

 

Respiratory pandemic viruses don't necessarily go away, they can continue to circulate for centuries but become indistinguishable from other seasonal infections. That is also likely the fate of covid.

 

It's very unfortunate that coronavirus only produces very weak natural immunity, 

 

 

Depends on how you define weak and immunity. If you expose remote tribes to the common cold they often die while we get a common cold. The difference is that our immune system has adapted to it.

If coronaviruses did produce very weak natural immunity we would be hit with multiple pandemics every year since mankind existed and might not even be here anymore. Instead we get common colds.


Edited by healthmysteries31, 22 January 2023 - 06:50 PM.

  • Good Point x 2

#705 Hip

  • Guest
  • 2,402 posts
  • -449
  • Location:UK

Posted 22 January 2023 - 08:51 PM

This is all-cause mortality over  a 6 month period not death from covid from what I understand.

 
Ah right, I missed that. Well that's a different sort of study then. But interesting none the less, because people appear to have increased general risks of dying in the year after they catch COVID. This may be from heart attacks and strokes, because we know these are increased in the year after you catch COVID
 
 And this study shows that if you catch COVID once again, then these general risks of dying are increased further. 
 



 

Not sure what you mean but you can get influenza annually it's not different than coronaviruses in that regard. For common corona viruses you tend to get them every couple of years like influenza. Influenza infection does not protect you against re-infection with influenza. You can't develop sterilizing immunity against it because it's a moving target and constantly mutating.

 
What I mean is that with most viruses, once you catch them, you develop lifelong antibodies that will protect you from catching that same virus twice. So you will never get a second acute infection from the same virus. But with coronavirus, you can get another acute infection with exactly the same virus just a few months after a previous infection.
 
This is not because the coronavirus has mutated, because a few months is usually too short a time to have mutations. 
 
As I understand it, this is different to influenzavirus, because seasonal influenza is a different set of viruses each winter. So the reason you can catch the flu again next year is because the virus next year is a new one.

 

But with coronavirus, you can catch the same virus just months later. 
 
 


 

The spanish flu never really died. It's descendants are circulating today and infect us every year. It became part of seasonal influenza.
 
Human coronavirus OC43 one  of the common cold viruses that infect us is believed to have been originated from the 1890 russian flu pandemic.
 
Respiratory pandemic viruses don't necessarily go away, they can continue to circulate for centuries but become indistinguishable from other seasonal infections. That is also likely the fate of covid.
 
 
Depends on how you define weak and immunity. If you expose remote tribes to the common cold they often die while we get a common cold. The difference is that our immune system has adapted to it.
If coronaviruses did produce very weak natural immunity we would be hit with multiple pandemics every year since mankind existed and might not even be here anymore. Instead we get common colds.

 
The Spanish H1N1 influenzavirus never went away, but the Spanish flu pandemic petered out, due to many people catching the virus, and developing immunity to it. Once you have this immunity, you cannot have an acute infection with the same influenzavirus again. So Spanish flu pandemic died out because the virus could not find new people to infect — most became immune to further infection because they previously caught this flu.
 
But with coronavirus, neither previous infection nor vaccination protects you from having another acute infection, and another, and another. So the pandemic still lives, because coronavirus can always find new people to infect, because it can transmit even to people who were previously infected. So coronavirus keeps transmitting person to person ad infinitum.



 

Depends on how you define weak and immunity. If you expose remote tribes to the common cold they often die while we get a common cold. The difference is that our immune system has adapted to it.
If coronaviruses did produce very weak natural immunity we would be hit with multiple pandemics every year since mankind existed and might not even be here anymore. Instead we get common colds.

 

You are talking about immunity at a genetic level here, not the adaptive immunity that develops from catching a pathogen, which is what I am referring to. These are completely different things. 

 

When smallpox was transmitted to South America for the first time by European explorers, it wiped out an estimated 90% of the American Indian population, because smallpox never existed in the Americas, so people living there had immune systems which had not evolved to fight smallpox effectively. That's immunity at a genetic level.

 

 

When I say coronavirus produces weak immunity, I mean the adaptive immune system, which learns to fight a particular pathogen during the first acute infection of the pathogen it encounters, fails to provide robust long term immunity against catching coronavirus again. Because adaptive immunity fails to protect from reinfection, we remain susceptible to multiple reinfections. 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Hip, 22 January 2023 - 08:54 PM.

  • Pointless, Timewasting x 1

#706 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,336 posts
  • 2,001
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 22 January 2023 - 09:43 PM

 

So prior infection with coronavirus does not protect you from getting this virus again. Indeed, some people have reported getting COVID again just a few months after a previous COVID infection.

 

 

Natural immunity from prior coronavirus infection is weak, and that unfortunately means this pandemic will not go away, because people will keep getting reinfected with COVID, and once reinfected, will pass the virus onto others, thus sustaining the pandemic. 

 

These statements are not supported by the available peer-reviewed science. See here. See here. See here.


  • Good Point x 1

#707 healthmysteries31

  • Guest
  • 34 posts
  • 22
  • Location:Planet Earth
  • NO

Posted 22 January 2023 - 09:53 PM

The Spanish H1N1 influenzavirus never went away, but the Spanish flu pandemic petered out, due to many people catching the virus, and developing immunity to it. Once you have this immunity, you cannot have an acute infection with the same influenzavirus again. So Spanish flu pandemic died out because the virus could not find new people to infect — most became immune to further infection because they previously caught this flu.

 

 

The Spanish flu didn't die out. It never stopped circulating. It still infects us. We never had herd immunity against it. It can mutate fast enough to escape from our collective defenses forever.

 

But with coronavirus, neither previous infection nor vaccination protects you from having another acute infection, and another, and another. So the pandemic still lives, because coronavirus can always find new people to infect, because it can transmit even to people who were previously infected. So coronavirus keeps transmitting person to person ad infinitum.

 

 

The question is not really infections, we are infected with influenza viruses and common cold coronaviruses over and over again as well.

 

When I say coronavirus produces weak immunity, I mean the adaptive immune system, which learns to fight a particular pathogen during the first acute infection of the pathogen it encounters, fails to provide robust long term immunity against catching coronavirus again. Because adaptive immunity fails to protect from reinfection, we remain susceptible to multiple reinfections

 

 

Again, it depends on how you define robust immunity. If you define it as protection against disease immunity is robust. If you define it as protection against infection it's not.

 

So for practical purposes I would describe it as effective.

 

You are talking about immunity at a genetic level here, not the adaptive immunity that develops from catching a pathogen, which is what I am referring to. These are completely different things. 

 

 

It isn't just genetic immunity. I think the problem is that you view it as an all or nothing situation. Immunity can work well enough to protect you against disease while not being able to prevent you from becoming infected. It's not a binary thing. That's also how the vaccines are supposed to work.

 

The fact that someone is re-infected doesn't mean complete failure of immune defenses.


Edited by healthmysteries31, 22 January 2023 - 10:34 PM.

  • Good Point x 3

#708 Hip

  • Guest
  • 2,402 posts
  • -449
  • Location:UK

Posted 23 January 2023 - 01:24 AM

The Spanish flu didn't die out. It never stopped circulating. It still infects us. We never had herd immunity against it. It can mutate fast enough to escape from our collective defenses forever.

 
I repeat what I said earlier: the H1N1 virus of the Spanish flu did not disappear, but the Spanish influenza pandemic it caused fizzled out after 2 years, because much of the population at the time developed long term natural immunity to the virus, having caught the virus at some point. So at that time in 1918-1919, a robust herd immunity developed to the flu virus right across the world. 
 
Today almost all of the people involved in the Spanish flu pandemic are dead, and people born after 1919 would not have been infected with that Spanish flu virus, so nobody now has herd immunity to the Spanish flu virus. If the same Spanish flu virus came again now, we would all be susceptible.
 
But back then, once millions caught the Spanish flu, they either died or they survived, and if they survived, they developed natural immunity, so they could never be infected again in their lifetime with Spanish flu.
 
Once people become immune to repeat infection, the virus can no longer jump from person to person in its usual opportunistic fashion. When you stop this transmission, or more precisely, reduce R to less than 1, the pandemic ends.  
 
It's the virus transmission rate R which determines whether a pandemic grows or maintains itself, or whether it dies out. If herd immunity can lower R to below 1, the pandemic dies out. These are the basic dynamics of exponential growth and decay. You have to think like a mathematician to appreciate the dynamics. 
 
 

If you want to understand the dynamics of the current COVID pandemic, it is important to appreciate that populations are not developing the sort of herd immunity to COVID that occurred during the Spanish flu. Back then, natural herd immunity stopped the flu in its tracks. The virus did not disappear, it later mutated into new forms; but the herd immunity stopped the pandemic completely, because the virus could no longer efficiently transmit person to person, so R dropped to below 1, and that was the end of the pandemic.
 
This will not happen with the COVID pandemic, because robust herd immunity does not develop after COVID infection, the sort of immunity that prevents reinfection.
 
Yes, prior COVID infection may potentially make subsequent COVID infections less severe, and less likely, but you still get those subsequent infections. If you can still be infected, it means the virus can still jump from person to person, in its opportunistic fashion. Which means the virus will never stop transmitting, and thus the COVID pandemic may never fully disappear for the foreseeable future. People will be dying on a daily basis from COVID for years if not decades to come. 
 
 
 
The only chance of wiping out COVID for good will come from future vaccines which are better at preventing infection. Current vaccines cannot prevent infection, they can only reduce the severity of the infection, and to an extent, these vaccines can reduce your chances of catching COVID. But today's vaccines do not totally protect you from getting COVID.
 
If in future we develop vaccines that can more-or-less totally protect you from getting COVID, that's when R will go below 1, and the COVID pandemic will finally disappear. 
 
 
 
It's important to appreciate these facts, so that people know what the scientists are up against. There is so much criticism levelled against the scientists, but most people don't really understand what science is up against.
 
 
 
 

I think the problem is that you view it as an all or nothing situation. Immunity can work well enough to protect you against disease while not being able to prevent you from becoming infected. It's not a binary thing. That's also how the vaccines are supposed to work.
 
The fact that someone is re-infected doesn't mean complete failure of immune defenses.


We all appreciate that natural immunity as well as vaccine-derived immunity can have different levels of strength, as I have been discussing earlier. 

 

The strength of immunity we get from natural COVID infection (and from the COVID vaccines) may be sufficient to provide some (but not complete) protection from death and hospitalisation.

 

But this natural immunity is not strong enough to prevent reinfection. That makes it a weak immunity, compared to the much stronger natural immunity that arises from other viruses, which does prevent natural infection. This is what I have tried to explain in my posts above, but the message does not seem to be getting through.

 

 

If you don't know much about other viruses, then you cannot really understand COVID, because it only becomes apparent that natural immunity from COVID is weak when you start comparing to other viruses.

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Hip, 23 January 2023 - 02:02 AM.

  • Pointless, Timewasting x 1
  • Ill informed x 1
  • Informative x 1
  • Agree x 1

#709 Hip

  • Guest
  • 2,402 posts
  • -449
  • Location:UK

Posted 23 January 2023 - 01:32 AM

These statements are not supported by the available peer-reviewed science. See here. See here. See here.

 

This article says two-thirds of people testing positive for omicron say they’ve had COVID before.

 

Clearly lots of people are getting reinfected. Prior infection (as well as vaccination) may reduce your risk of reinfection, but it does not eliminate the possibility of reinfection. I know people who have now been infected three times.

 

 

 

Many times, Mind, you have criticised the COVID vaccines for not being able to completely protect people from the virus, saying that most other vaccines do provide this complete protection (which is true, they do).

 

But what you don't appreciate is that the same applies to natural immunity to coronavirus: natural immunity does not totally protect you from being infected again. Unlike the strong natural immunity you get with other viruses, you do not get robust natural immunity after catching any coronavirus, including COVID.

 

So to understand what is going on with the vaccines, you need to appreciate that the problem lies with the nature of coronavirus, not with the vaccines themselves. 

 

It's hard for both vaccines and natural immunity to create a lasting strong immune protection. That's the nature of coronavirus.


Edited by Hip, 23 January 2023 - 02:05 AM.

  • Agree x 2
  • Pointless, Timewasting x 1
  • Informative x 1

#710 Gal220

  • Guest
  • 1,062 posts
  • 640
  • Location:United States

Posted 23 January 2023 - 07:48 AM

Scott Adams, after being extremely pro vaxx does a 180.

 


  • Pointless, Timewasting x 1
  • Informative x 1

#711 Gal220

  • Guest
  • 1,062 posts
  • 640
  • Location:United States

Posted 23 January 2023 - 07:54 AM

Recently, Cardiologist calls for suspension of the vaccine
https://twitter.com/...src=typed_query


Oncologist doing the same
https://twitter.com/...ed_query&f=live


  • Needs references x 1
  • Good Point x 1

#712 healthmysteries31

  • Guest
  • 34 posts
  • 22
  • Location:Planet Earth
  • NO

Posted 23 January 2023 - 08:21 AM

I repeat what I said earlier: the H1N1 virus of the Spanish flu did not disappear, but the Spanish influenza pandemic it caused fizzled out after 2 years, because much of the population at the time developed long term natural immunity to the virus, having caught the virus at some point. So at that time in 1918-1919, a robust herd immunity developed to the flu virus right across the world.

 

 

You are repeating this but don't understand it. The Spanish flu virus changes rapidly, it did not infect all part of the world at once, so the virus was always different enough to be able to infect some parts of the world again. This cycle never stopped. There is no such thing as herd immunity against influenza viruses.

 

This will not happen with the COVID pandemic, because robust herd immunity does not develop after COVID infection, the sort of immunity that prevents reinfection.

 

 

It has happened already with covid. The original wuhan strain is not circulating anymore. You don't  need perfect herd immunity to remove variants from circulation. Partial immunity alone can put the virus under pressure and select for new variants. Pandemic viruses will also optimize for better infectivity due to selection (which also tends to decrease severity).

 

There is no difference between covid and the spanish flu in that regard. The original strain was replaced by newer versions quickly in both cases.

 

I think you misunderstand herd immunity. Herd immunity doesn't mean the virus ceases to exist. It means it slows it down enough to prevent rapid spread.

 

True herd immunity that completely removes viruses from the world doesn't exist usually for infectious viruses. Even vaccines don't create it. So far we have only been able to eradicate smallpox but not any other virus.

 

Even  a combination of measles vaccination and infection was not able to eradicate the measles virus. We did build up good herd immunity against it even before vaccination but it did not remove the measles virus from this earth it did slow down outbreaks and spread though.

 

You have to think like a mathematician to appreciate the dynamics. 

 

 

You should absolutely NOT think like  a mathematician and reduce it to an overly simplistic model with 1 variable because it leads to misunderstanding of things like herd immunity as seen above. That is exactly the problem. If you reduce things to a binary state or  a single variable you will not make good predictions for the real world.

 

The reason why you don't understand the problem is:

 

1. You view immunity as binary state instead of the multi-layered complex defense system it really is.

2. You view the pandemic phenomenon as a single variable the reproduction rate.

3. You don't cross-check with the real world.

 

You can't model or understand a pandemic based on this alone. This is like economists who think they can model human behavior with a simple equation and then usually fail to make accurate real world predictions.

 

If in future we develop vaccines that can more-or-less totally protect you from getting COVID, that's when R will go below 1, and the COVID pandemic will finally disappear. 

 

 

Did you know that all coronaviruses that exist today and that infect us frequently were once pandemic viruses?

 

The chances of developing such a vaccine are rather low. It will likely not happen. The virus will be with us just like the spanish flu and aother corona and influenza pandemic viruses  are still with us.

 

if you don't know much about other viruses, then you cannot really understand COVID

 

 

Correct and you also need to understand the progression of pandemics. 

 

It's easy to make a prediction about outcomes that can be tested.

 

If what you are saying is true(which is likely not the case from what we know) we would expect the following outcome:

 

The pandemic will get more severe over time(reinfections supposedly worse), as we can't develop immunity and vaccines can't be upgraded quickly enough for the entire world to all new variants and booster fatigue sets in unless we develop the perfect vaccine(chances of this happening in the next decade are very low)

 

Infection fatality rates would eventually go to 2% or higher in those not vaccinated or boosted.

 

So we would experience March 2020 over and over again or even worse. That's something one would notice very easily. Lack of oxygen everywhere, hospitals collapsing, everyone wears masks and is scared etc.

 

If what you are saying is not true and covid would follow the normal course of other respiratory pandemics(there is no reason to believe that this is not true from what we know so far)

we would expect to see the following scenario:

 

A few initial strong waves with high mortality followed by subsequent milder waves with perhaps some stronger than average flu-like seasons over the next 10 years. There is also  a chance that the pandemic comes back once or twice over the next decades for a year or two even though it would  be milder than the original one.

 

The virus would increasingly become indistinguishable from other seasonal respiratory viruses, booster fatigue would set-in as many will lose interest or don't feel the risk benefit ratio of vaccines is favorable.

 

Despite that we wouldn't see march 2020 again.

 

From what I can observe in the real world we are much closer to scenario 2 than 1 so far.

 

After several waves the disease seems to be weaker, people who are re-infected get less sick. We don't hear about lack of oxygen anymore. Most people I know seem to have moved on, I don't hear from people get seriously ill anymore.

 

We will see how it develops. If what you are saying is true it would be very obvious and we would eventually see something worse than March 2020 which couldn't be overlooked.

 

I am not seeing anything like that so far.


Edited by healthmysteries31, 23 January 2023 - 09:06 AM.

  • Informative x 2
  • Ill informed x 1
  • Good Point x 1

#713 Hip

  • Guest
  • 2,402 posts
  • -449
  • Location:UK

Posted 23 January 2023 - 05:34 PM

You are repeating this but don't understand it.


Understanding the exponential function of mathematics is key to understanding pandemic pathogen transmission. The R value from this function (the viral transmission rate) determines whether a pandemic expands or dwindles away.

For example, if R = 2, meaning that on average, each infected person goes on to infect two further people, then the number of infected cases will follow this exponential growth pattern:

1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, etc

 

There are plenty of tutorials online about the exponential function, and how it is involved in multiple real-world circumstances, like bacterial growth, and compound interest on investments.

Strictly speaking, though, pandemics are not determined by exponential functions, but by another similar mathematical function called the sigmoid function. Though the numerical results of the exponential and sigmoid functions are closely tally when the number of infected and immune people is much lower than the total population. So reading about the exponential function gives a good insight into pandemic dynamics.




 

I think you misunderstand herd immunity. Herd immunity doesn't mean the virus ceases to exist. It means it slows it down enough to prevent rapid spread.

 

Obviously herd immunity means that virus transmission (the R number) is reduced, due to people becoming immune to catching the virus, thus inhibiting viral spread. I've said this in my posts.

You seem to be stating what you think I wrote, rather than what I actually wrote.



 

You should absolutely NOT think like  a mathematician and reduce it to an overly simplistic model with 1 variable because it leads to misunderstanding of things like herd immunity as seen above.


The art of mathematics and science it the ability to figure out what real-world parameters need to be incorporated into a model, and which can been left out, because they do not have any significant bearing on the system. This is ability part of the training in science.

If your model leaves out important factors, then it will not produce accurate results. If it incorporates unimportant factors, then it may become unnecessarily complicated. The art of mathematics and science is working out which factors need to be incorporated, and which can be safely left out.



 

The reason why you don't understand the problem is:
 
1. You view immunity as binary state instead of the multi-layered complex defense system it really is.
2. You view the pandemic phenomenon as a single variable the reproduction rate.
3. You don't cross-check with the real world.
 
You can't model or understand a pandemic based on this alone. This is like economists who think they can model human behavior with a simple equation and then usually fail to make accurate real world predictions.


Again, you seem to be stating what you think I wrote, rather than what I actually wrote. You are presumptuously putting words into my mouth, and then arguing with those words, not with what I actually said.

Where did I state that immunity is a binary state?

Where did I state that the pandemic is governed by a single variable?

There are countless factors involved in the pandemic. However, any epidemiologists will tell you that are far as pandemic expansion or contraction are concerned, it is the R number which measures that. The R number is the sum result of all the countless factors.

Similarly, there are countless factors involved in the economy, but any economist will tell you that the expansion or contraction of gross domestic product (GDP) gives an overall measurement of the state of the economy.



 

After several waves the disease seems to be weaker, people who are re-infected get less sick. We don't hear about lack of oxygen anymore. Most people I know seem to have moved on, I don't hear from people get seriously ill anymore.


The pandemic has not gone away, but governments and the media are not publicising the deaths as much, presumably because they want people to go back to work, otherwise the economy will suffer.

The UK Worldometer shows that for the last year and a half, there have been around 100 deaths per day. It goes up and down a bit, sometimes 150 deaths a day, sometimes 50, but 100 is about the average. That trend continues today, with no sign of abating so far.

Over 90% of people in the UK have caught COVID at least once. So clearly herd immunity is not extinguishing the pandemic.

 

At the peak of the waves, before we had the vaccines, there were around 1000 deaths per day in the UK. But vaccination has helped bring this figure down. Also, perhaps this figure went down because many of the most vulnerable people have now died, so the people who are left now are the tougher ones.

I hope that the repeated use of mRNA booster vaccines will not lead to immune tolerance, otherwise the death rate may rise.
 

 

In terms of the long term outcomes of this COVID pandemic, one piece of good news is that in populated areas (like most modern cities), viruses tend to evolve into more benign forms.

 

We have seen this already with omicron, which is more benign but more transmissible than delta.

 

It's actually in the virus's interest to become more benign in populated areas. This is because the virus's primary goal is to survive and transmit. If a virus is too fierce, and kills or incapacitates people it infects, then its chances of transmission may actually be reduced, because those infected people will be too ill at home, or dead, and so not participating in social environments where the virus has a chance of spreading to other people. 

Whereas if the virus evolves to produce a milder infection, then infected people may still go to work and socialise, which then gives the virus many more opportunities to transmit to others. This is why in populated regions, viruses tend to evolve to become more benign.

 

So we may see increasingly more benign strains of COVID appearing, and taking over previous less benign strains.
 

 

Did you know that all coronaviruses that exist today and that infect us frequently were once pandemic viruses?


I did not know that, but it certainly makes sense. As detailed above, when viruses first hit human populations, they can be very nasty, but may evolve into more benign forms in populated regions over time.

 

Syphilis was such a severe infection when it first hit Europe, that the flesh would literally drop off the limbs of infected people. But over time, it evolved into more benign forms. 

 

 

The chances of developing such a vaccine are rather low. It will likely not happen. The virus will be with us just like the spanish flu and aother corona and influenza pandemic viruses  are still with us.


Researchers have been looking at developing mucosal vaccines for COVID. Though there is a lack of funding.

 

Mucosal vaccines train the mucosal immune system (the immune system residing on the mucous membranes), rather than systemic immune system which is trained by injected vaccines.

Mucosal immunity uses different antibodies, IgA antibodies rather than the IgM and IgG antibodies of systemic immunity.

The advantage of training mucosal immunity is that when a respiratory virus like COVID first hits our bodies, it does so by landing on one of our mucous membranes (oral, nasal or throat mucous membranes). If the virus encounters a robust immune response on these mucous membranes, it may be killed there and then, without ever getting into the bloodstream. So you may be able to completely prevent an infection if you have enhanced mucosal immunity. 

Mucosal vaccines are also good for those who are needle phobic, since they are administered orally or via a nasal spray.

This is an article on COVID mucosal vaccines.



 


Edited by Hip, 23 January 2023 - 05:37 PM.

  • Pointless, Timewasting x 1
  • Good Point x 1

#714 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,336 posts
  • 2,001
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 23 January 2023 - 07:08 PM

Hip really found an important study here, highlighting that the COVID injections and boosters are worthless against hospitalization and death if you are re-infected. I am surprised this did not make more news when it came out last year. Maybe it was being censored by the CDC and social media, like so much other important data during the media-created COVID panic. Yes, the CDC was actively censoring peer-reviewed data and people's personal experiences with the COVID injections. Recent Facebook files indicate how ruthless the CDC was in stomping out any rational discussion. The leadership at the CDC needs to be sacked....like yesterday. There should be criminal investigations as well.

 

Mainstream media outlets are now excoriating the CDC about the lack of success of the boosters. It is not only the boosters, but the original injections as well. Country, after country, after country saw their biggest waves of COVID and the MOST deaths AFTER widespread injection campaigns. Just look at the data from the U.S., Japan, Israel, Thailand, Malaysia, Uruguay, Australia, South Korea, and many others.

 

You can see this failure of the COVID injection graphically by looking at the vaccination rates from around the world. Africa is hardly injected at all, yet most African countries have the lowest COVID mortality rate around the world.

 

Don't forget that besides lying about monitoring safety data regarding the vaccines, they hid data, and left some serious side effects off post vaccinations surveys.

 

Not only has the CDC been incompetent and unethical in their handling of the media-created COVID panic, the ONS in the UK has now admitted that their COVID data is deeply flawed as well, after being challenged about it by a group of doctors and scientists.

 

It is no surprise the most people in the US think the CDC should be investigated over the COVID response, including 48% of Democrats.

 

 


  • Informative x 3
  • Agree x 1

#715 healthmysteries31

  • Guest
  • 34 posts
  • 22
  • Location:Planet Earth
  • NO

Posted 23 January 2023 - 07:23 PM

 So reading about the exponential function gives a good insight into pandemic dynamics.

 

 

Yes but only to understand how rapidly it spreads once it enters the population not how the pandemic will progress long-term.

 

Obviously herd immunity means that virus transmission (the R number) is reduced, due to people becoming immune to catching the virus, thus inhibiting viral spread. I've said this in my posts.

 

 

Well you did seem to suggest that not only spread is reduced but that the virus will disappear completely as it runs out of hosts which doesn't happen in the real world.

 

Where did I state that immunity is a binary state?

 

 

That was what your comment seemed to imply. You suggested that people couldn't develop immunity against coronaviruses since they could get reinfected after a while.

 

In reality people who are reinfected with coronaviruses have been found to have milder disease and shorter infection periods.

 

So your conclusion seemed to be, reinfection = no immunity. So that would mean, either you are reinfected or you are immune. Which doesn't leave any room for degrees of protections.

 

Where did I state that the pandemic is governed by a single variable?

 

 

That was what your comments would imply because you suggested that the Spanish influenza went away because of herd immunity and that the corona pandemic would only end if R < 1.

 

So basically it's only determined by R.

 

The pandemic has not gone away, but governments and the media are not publicising the deaths as much, presumably because they want people to go back to work, otherwise the economy will suffer.

 

 

I was also talking about personal observations not just media, there was an unusual disease in the first two waves, you did know many people who were affected some much more severe compared to the flu. This simply doesn't happen anymore to that extent. The character of the disease has changed. I am not seeing much unusual happening anywhere.

 

Feels more like we are moving to an endemic stage now.

 

If we had a really bad wave like in 2020 I don't think government and media could hide it.

 

The UK Worldometer shows that for the last year and a half, there have been around 100 deaths per day. It goes up and down a bit, sometimes 150 deaths a day, sometimes 50, but 100 is about the average. That trend continues today, with no sign of abating so far.

 

 

Reported covid deaths in the UK seem to be currently similar  to the average seasonal influenza deaths. Infection fatality rates were initially many times higher than the flu. Seems like it's getting closer to flu infection fatality rates now.

 

Over 90% of people in the UK have caught COVID at least once. So clearly herd immunity is not extinguishing the pandemic.

 

 

Respiratory pandemics are not extinguished by a herd immunity effect, they just decrease in severity over time and keep running in the background to the point where they are no longer noticed.

 

At the peak of the waves, before we had the vaccines, there were around 1000 deaths per day in the UK. But vaccination has helped bring this figure down. 

 

 

Well assuming that the vaccines are working implies that the body can develop some immunity. If it didn't vaccination campaigns wouldn't be very effective.

 

In terms of the long term outcomes of this COVID pandemic, one piece of good news is that in populated areas (like most modern cities), viruses tend to evolve into more benign forms.

 

That is another factor why pandemics fade away.

 

Researchers have been looking at developing mucosal vaccines for COVID. Though there is a lack of funding.

 

 

Mucosal vaccines might be more effective but they wouldn't make the virus disappear either I guess, you still would have to revaccinate annually to keep it in check.

 

I thought that you were talking about universal coronavirus vaccines which are likely not to be available anytime soon because we have tried for many years to develop an universal influenza vaccine and failed.

 

We have also tried for almost 100 years to develop a flu vaccine but we still don't get more than 60% efficacy. 

 

I don't think our corona vaccines will be so much better than the influenza vaccines.


  • like x 2
  • Pointless, Timewasting x 1

#716 Hip

  • Guest
  • 2,402 posts
  • -449
  • Location:UK

Posted 23 January 2023 - 08:20 PM

Hip really found an important study here, highlighting that the COVID injections and boosters are worthless against hospitalization and death if you are re-infected. 

 

The Mind misinformation machine continues unabated. Where does it say in that article that the COVID vaccines are worthless?


  • Unfriendly x 2
  • Disagree x 2

#717 Hip

  • Guest
  • 2,402 posts
  • -449
  • Location:UK

Posted 23 January 2023 - 08:31 PM

Yes but only to understand how rapidly it spreads once it enters the population not how the pandemic will progress long-term.

 

The exponential function describes viral transmission at all stages of the pandemic, whether it is the initial stages of explosive exponential growth, the final stages of exponential decay and petering out, or at any point in between.

 

 

If you know how many COVID cases you have today, and you know the current R value, you can plug this data into the appropriate exponential function, and it will calculate how many cases you are going to have next week. This is true whether cases are rising, falling or remaining constant, these are all governed by the exponential function.

 

 

People who are non-mathematicians often equate the word "exponential" with "explosive growth", which is perhaps how you might be interpreting the word. But the exponential function also applies when the number of cases is on the wane, or is petering out. That's called exponential decay.


Edited by Hip, 23 January 2023 - 08:32 PM.

  • Pointless, Timewasting x 3

#718 healthmysteries31

  • Guest
  • 34 posts
  • 22
  • Location:Planet Earth
  • NO

Posted 23 January 2023 - 09:40 PM

The exponential function describes viral transmission at all stages of the pandemic, whether it is the initial stages of explosive exponential growth, the final stages of exponential decay and petering out, or at any point in between.

 

 

If you know how many COVID cases you have today, and you know the current R value, you can plug this data into the appropriate exponential function, and it will calculate how many cases you are going to have next week. This is true whether cases are rising, falling or remaining constant, these are all governed by the exponential function.

 

 

People who are non-mathematicians often equate the word "exponential" with "explosive growth", which is perhaps how you might be interpreting the word. But the exponential function also applies when the number of cases is on the wane, or is petering out. That's called exponential decay.

 

Yes of course it can tell you how many people are infected next week at any point in time but that's not what I meant.

 

I meant it can't tell you how long a pandemic will last, how it will progress clinically, how it will evolve, when it will end etc.

 

It's also not very reliable if you are trying to make long-term predictions.


  • Pointless, Timewasting x 1
  • Good Point x 1

#719 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,336 posts
  • 2,001
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 23 January 2023 - 09:51 PM

The Mind misinformation machine continues unabated. Where does it say in that article that the COVID vaccines are worthless?

 

Here is what the article you provided says:

 

 

Getting COVID-19 a second time doubles a person’s chance of dying and triples the likelihood of being hospitalized, a new study found.

Vaccination and booster status did not improve survival or hospitalization rates among people who were infected more than once.


  • Agree x 2

#720 smithx

  • Guest
  • 1,446 posts
  • 458

Posted 24 January 2023 - 08:47 PM

Hip really found an important study here, highlighting that the COVID injections and boosters are worthless against hospitalization and death if you are re-infected

It is no surprise the most people in the US think the CDC should be investigated over the COVID response, including 48% of Democrats.

 

The conclusion of that study is that you should really try hard not to get infected with covid at all, and if you do get infected once, try even harder not to get infected again.

From that link:

An expert not involved in the study told Reuters that the Veterans Affairs population does not reflect the general population. Patients at VA health facilities are generally older with more than normal health complications, said John Moore, PhD, a professor of microbiology and immunology at Weill Cornell Medical College in New York.

Al-Aly encouraged people to be vigilant as they plan for the holiday season, Reuters reported.

"We had started seeing a lot of patients coming to the clinic with an air of invincibility," he told Reuters. "They wondered, 'Does getting a reinfection really matter?' The answer is yes, it absolutely does."

 

 

The much older population of the study tends to not respond to vaccines or infection with strong immunity, compared with younger people. So while it is very important to avoid being infected or re-infected, this study is not likely to be transferable to a young or middle-aged population.

 


  • like x 1





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: coronavirus

13 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 12 guests, 0 anonymous users


    Bing (1)