2090 replies to this topic

[Daniel Cooper]

The conclusion of that study is that you should really try hard not to get infected with covid at all, and if you do get infected once, try even harder not to get infected again.

From that link:

 

The much older population of the study tends to not respond to vaccines or infection with strong immunity, compared with younger people. So while it is very important to avoid being infected or re-infected, this study is not likely to be transferable to a young or middle-aged population.

 

With covid-19 now being an endemic virus worldwide, and with vaccines and masks both being only very moderately effective - how exactly does one "try really hard not to ever get infected"? It seems like everyone getting infected is a fait accompli. I suppose someone could live as some sort of recluse, a hermit, only venturing out infrequently and on the rare occasions you do so masked with a real honest to god respirator - but I would suggest that would severely impact most people's quality of life.

 

Not ever getting infected just doesn't seem reasonable or likely.

 

It's akin to saying "live the rest of your life without ever catching a cold".  I suppose you could move to some desert island but be careful lest you find yourself naming a volleyball and talking to it.

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 24 January 2023 - 09:03 PM.

[Hip]

Here is what the article you provided says:

 

The wording in that article regarding the effects of vaccines is ambiguous. 

 

If you go to the original paper that the article refers to, it does not say anything about vaccines being "worthless".

[Gal220]

Not ever getting infected just doesn't seem reasonable or likely.

 

I think you can really limit exposure with 

 

Add to these to your normal oral hygiene routine

-Gargle with Scope or ACT

-Nasal rinses with H202+saline , Xlear, or Nitric Oxide(Sanotize) 

 

Daily

-multivitamin + probiotic with bifidobacterium

 

 

-if you do catch it, treat immediately(Benedryl + lactoferrin, NAC, EGCG, Ivermectin, HCQ + ionic zinc, licorice, nigella sativa, curcumin)

Edited by Gal220, 25 January 2023 - 03:25 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Yeah, I think some of those things will mitigate and somewhat reduce your likelihood of contracting the virus. But they won't reduce that probability to zero (probably no where near zero given the R of the current strain).

 

Smithx says you should avoid ever catching covid-19 and if you ever catch it don't even think about catching it a second time.

 

I just don't think that's realistic.

 

Covid-19 is here to stay. It will definitely not be going away. So how long can you avoid it? If you're out engaged with the world, definitely not forever. If you lock yourself away, maybe it will take longer to catch it, but you'll very likely catch it anyway eventually.

 

Humans seemed to have handled these things more reasonably in times past. Perhaps because people understood that their not ever dying was not on the table, something was going to kill them at some point, and they might as well make the best of life while they had it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mind]

The wording in that article regarding the effects of vaccines is ambiguous. 

 

If you go to the original paper that the article refers to, it does not say anything about vaccines being "worthless".

 

It is not ambiguous at all.

 

When the study clearly shows that there is no difference in hospitalization or death between unvaccinated, vaccinated, and boosted, what do you say about it?

 

You can say "the vaccines made no difference". Sure.

 

Useless, worthless, didn't work, etc...are all valid alternatives.

 

You are just arguing semantics, not the actual data/results of the study.

[Daniel Cooper]

New article on covid-19 vaccines:
 
Australia Sees Heart Attacks Increase By 17% In 2022 - "Experts" Blame Pandemic
 
Some of you guys need to alay my concerns as the recipient of two Pfizer shots, and it would be nice if the refutation was something more than "That's Zerohedge, just ignore them".
 
They do cite two studies:
 
Myocarditis Cases Reported After mRNA-Based COVID-19 Vaccination in the US From December 2020 to August 2021
 
New-onset autoimmune phenomena post-COVID-19 vaccination

 

There does seems to be a hint at lingering autoimmune issues which would be the most concern long term.

 

 

 

 

[Mind]

New article on covid-19 vaccines:
 
Australia Sees Heart Attacks Increase By 17% In 2022 - "Experts" Blame Pandemic
 
Some of you guys need to alay my concerns as the recipient of two Pfizer shots, and it would be nice if the refutation was something more than "That's Zerohedge, just ignore them".
 
They do cite two studies:
 
Myocarditis Cases Reported After mRNA-Based COVID-19 Vaccination in the US From December 2020 to August 2021
 
New-onset autoimmune phenomena post-COVID-19 vaccination

 

There does seems to be a hint at lingering autoimmune issues which would be the most concern long term.

 

Here is another case study robustly linking the COVID injections to myocarditis.

 

More worrisome is that some people suspect that the COVID injections might increase CJD (prion disease). Here is a recent paper. It is just a small sample and I would say a bit speculative thus far.

 

To alay fears, it seems the number of people suffering severe side effects is a small percentage. In my circle of acquaintances it is less than 10%. I only know one person who seemed to suffer sudden mental degradation after the injection, but that person is old (80s), so some degree of decreased brain function is to be expected. In addition, the injection-makers did produce widely varying dosages to different people around the world, so there might be more side effects in different batches, and less with others.

 

Myocarditis is not great, but if a person only suffers some short term inflammation and a small amount of scarring, that is not the end of the world. People can easily live with a tiny amount of heart damage without much noticeable effect on general physical function.

[Daniel Cooper]

The problem with all this FUD (fear uncertainty and doubt) is that it's clear that some of our health bureaucracy leadership have at various times lied to us during this pandemic. Fauci has lied. Some of Fauci's lieutenants have lied. I think even Francis Collins has either lied or at least remained silent when others have lied.

 

Some like Hip will argue that all of their lies were for "the greater good". Presumably the greater good as they perceived it. But even if I stipulate that their lies were for the greater good, what's to say they aren't lying for the greater good right now?  I can certainly envision that if there were major issue with vaccine side effects, the Fauci's of the world might decide that it's for the greater good that this is not revealed.

 

I would just hope that some here would understand that when you have people in these leadership positions, it's not kooky to question their veracity once they've been caught out in a number of untruths. Which is why it's so important that these people always tell the truth in these matters - because that serves the true greater good.

 

 

[Gal220]

Yeah, I think some of those things will mitigate and somewhat reduce your likelihood of contracting the virus. But they won't reduce that probability to zero (probably no where near zero given the R of the current strain).

 

Smithx says you should avoid ever catching covid-19 and if you ever catch it don't even think about catching it a second time.

 

I just don't think that's realistic.

 

I'm doubtful people do it consistently. 

 

If Sanotize reduces viral load by 99%(study below), and incubation is 3 days, shouldn't it always kill it before you get symptoms?

https://www.bloomber...ad-by-99-within

 

 

Either way, I have had Delta and Omicron, still alive.  I did max dose a blood cleanser and nac for viral clearance, but I think I read Justin Trudeau has had it 3 times along with many others.

Treat early, limit the damage.   If you can, get in the habit of nasal hygiene

[Hip]

When the study clearly shows that there is no difference in hospitalization or death between unvaccinated, vaccinated, and boosted, what do you say about it?

 

You can say "the vaccines made no difference". 

 

I think you may be misinterpreting the study.  

 

The study says:

 

"Analyses of ... vaccination status before reinfection ... showed that reinfection (compared to no reinfection) was associated with a higher risk of all-cause mortality, hospitalization, at least one sequela and sequelae in the different organ systems regardless of vaccination status".

 

The key phrase here is "compared to no reinfection". It is comparative, and they are looking at how the risk of death during the 6 month period that follows the first infection compares to the risk of death during the 6 months that follow the second infection. 

 

What they found is that you have a higher risk of death from COVID the second time around, compared to the first time around. 

 

This relative increase in death risk the second time around was found to be the case irrespective of vaccine status. But that does not imply the vaccines are not working. If you are vaccinated, your chances of death from acute COVID are about 20 times lower than the unvaccinated. It is well established that you have a lower baseline risk of death if you are vaxxed. But relative to this baseline, your risk of death is increased in the second COVID infection compared to the first.

Edited by Hip, 25 January 2023 - 09:06 PM.

[Gal220]

Some of you guys need to alay my concerns as the recipient of two Pfizer shots, and it would be nice if the refutation was something more than "That's Zerohedge, just ignore them".
 

 

Simply get an EKG done, hopefully most of your shot stayed in the deltoid

 

 

It doesn't look good from those tracking the data

https://twitter.com/...336367444119552

 

"

Full breakout of Excess Non-Covid Natural Cause Mortality per CDC-Wonder (applied to MMWR Wk 2 2023) - post-Vax inflection (wk 14 2021):

 

  E-NCNCM = 540 K or 18.9% Excess

  Blood Clotting Disorders =  56%

 

Top risers: 

  1. Heart/Circulatory

  2. Blood/Blood-Forming

  3. Cancer

"

[Mind]

I think you may be misinterpreting the study.  

 

The study says:

 

"Analyses of ... vaccination status before reinfection ... showed that reinfection (compared to no reinfection) was associated with a higher risk of all-cause mortality, hospitalization, at least one sequela and sequelae in the different organ systems regardless of vaccination status".

 

The key phrase here is "compared to no reinfection". It is comparative, and they are looking at how the risk of death during the 6 month period that follows the first infection compares to the risk of death during the 6 months that follow the second infection. 

 

What they found is that you have a higher risk of death from COVID the second time around, compared to the first time around. 

 

This relative increase in death risk the second time around was found to be the case irrespective of vaccine status. But that does not imply the vaccines are not working. If you are vaccinated, your chances of death from acute COVID are about 20 times lower than the unvaccinated. It is well established that you have a lower baseline risk of death if you are vaxxed. But relative to this baseline, your risk of death is increased in the second COVID infection compared to the first.

 

The study claims that if you are re-infected with COVID, your vaccination status is irrelevant. The vaccines and boosters are useless if you have been previously infected with COVID. I understand the study perfectly well.

 

This obviously brings up the question of why this would be the case, and what would be the point of continuing to give everyone booster after booster after booster, when nearly everyone has had some variant of the disease already. The boosters would be doing nothing except exposing everyone to more of the known side effects.

[Daniel Cooper]

 

Simply get an EKG done, hopefully most of your shot stayed in the deltoid

 

 

It doesn't look good from those tracking the data

https://twitter.com/...336367444119552

 

"

Full breakout of Excess Non-Covid Natural Cause Mortality per CDC-Wonder (applied to MMWR Wk 2 2023) - post-Vax inflection (wk 14 2021):

 

  E-NCNCM = 540 K or 18.9% Excess

  Blood Clotting Disorders =  56%

 

Top risers: 

  1. Heart/Circulatory

  2. Blood/Blood-Forming

  3. Cancer

"

 

 

The Ethical Skeptic on Twitter isn't exactly a peer reviewed journal.

 

I'm skeptical too, but you need more that a bunch of charts (of which he has aplenty). You need to know what the data represents and how it was processed into those charts.

 

And getting an EKG done after the fact is useless. Learning that you've suffered heart damage but being powerless to do anything about it isn't terribly productive.

 

I've got government health officials I can't trust because we know they've lied in the past on one side and people making all sorts of alarmist claims on the other.

 

What a mess.

 

 

[Gal220]

The Ethical Skeptic on Twitter isn't exactly a peer reviewed journal.

 

I'm skeptical too, but you need more that a bunch of charts (of which he has aplenty). You need to know what the data represents and how it was processed into those charts.

 

And getting an EKG done after the fact is useless. Learning that you've suffered heart damage but being powerless to do anything about it isn't terribly productive.

 

I've got government health officials I can't trust because we know they've lied in the past on one side and people making all sorts of alarmist claims on the other.

 

What a mess.

 

The twitter guy has been crunching the cdc data and world data

Dr Makary sites study show 63% of children with myocarditis did not resolve months later using an MRI

https://twitter.com/...870240478273542

 

 

The autopsies they did recently in Germany were sub clinical myocarditis(victims never saw a doctor b/c mild/no symptoms), even though only mild scarring, it still resulted in a fatal arrhythmia

https://twitter.com/...157979529371648

 

 

Who cares what the percentages are, the only way to know is to check.  Are you sure you can do nothing about it?  Maybe nothing official, but Serrapeptase eats up scar tissue.

 

It completely resolved my scar tissue pinching off my intestine leading to 2 stomach pumps.  Dr just told me to eat smaller meals and avoid fiber..

[Hip]

The study claims that if you are re-infected with COVID, your vaccination status is irrelevant.  

 

No it does not. 

 

You may like to re-read my above explanation again. Or if that does not help you understand, try this article which explains the same study:

 

"Researchers found that the risk for death, serious illness requiring hospitalization, or other health problems increased in proportion to the number of times an individual acquired a COVID infection. This was true regardless of whether or not people were vaccinated or boosted. Compared to someone who has never been infected before, a person acquiring a second COVID infection has twice the chance of dying, and three times the risk of needing hospitalization. It is even worse for a third or fourth infection. Simply put, the more times someone is infected by the COVID-19 virus the more dangerous it is."

 

I know it's hard to think in terms of mathematics when you prefer sensationalist literature, but please try.

 

 

 

Incidentally, the same article details how people who have had COVID show epigenetic changes equivalent to ageing by 5 years. So COVID causes accelerated biological ageing.

 

Edited by Hip, 26 January 2023 - 01:01 AM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Incidentally, the same article details how people who have had COVID show epigenetic changes equivalent to ageing by 5 years. So COVID causes accelerated biological ageing.

 

If they are looking at methylation clocks those are turning out to be almost worthless in determining anything like relative age.  For one thing they change both positively and negatively over time.

 

I don't doubt that when the body has been through a stressful infection they may trend negatively. But a year later it would not surprise me if they have substantially recovered.

 

Also, does anyone know how these aging marker change with other serious infections? Do they get worse after a serious case of the flu?

 

I lot these markers people are looking at and seeing degradation post covid may be because there is such scrutiny around covid, scientist have a rather large magnifying glass focused on this, and it may well be you'd find similar effects from other serious respiratory viruses. By in large nobody knows because nobody's looked.

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 26 January 2023 - 06:46 PM.

[Empiricus]

If they are looking at methylation clocks those are turning out to be almost worthless in determining anything like relative age.  For one thing they change both positively and negatively over time.

 

I don't doubt that when the body has been through a stressful infecting they may trend negatively. But a year later it would not surprise me if they have substantially recovered.

 

Also, does anyone know how these aging marker change with other serious infections? Do they get worse after a serious case of the flu?

 

I lot these markers people are looking at and seeing degradation post covid may be because there is such scrutiny around covid, scientist have a rather large magnifying glass focused on this, and it may well be you'd find similar effects from other serious respiratory viruses. By in large nobody knows because nobody's looked.

 

Well, I had Covid twice--first time was long and rather harsh and the second more like a ordinary bad flu--and have been dealing with long Covid.  In spite of all that, in December 2022 my meth age was a couple years under my chrono age.  

[Mind]

 

 

This was true regardless of whether or not people were vaccinated or boosted.

 

You keep posting the study results (THE EXACT VERBIAGE) and then say ....no no no, that is not what they are saying. They are clearly saying that if you get re-infected with COVID, you have the same risk of hospitalization and death, no matter if you have been vaccinated or boosted. If you think the researchers are stupid and don't know what they are talking about, then you should talk to them and have them change their results to something you agree with.

[Mind]

The problem with all this FUD (fear uncertainty and doubt) is that it's clear that some of our health bureaucracy leadership have at various times lied to us during this pandemic. Fauci has lied. Some of Fauci's lieutenants have lied. I think even Francis Collins has either lied or at least remained silent when others have lied.

 

Some like Hip will argue that all of their lies were for "the greater good". Presumably the greater good as they perceived it. But even if I stipulate that their lies were for the greater good, what's to say they aren't lying for the greater good right now?  I can certainly envision that if there were major issue with vaccine side effects, the Fauci's of the world might decide that it's for the greater good that this is not revealed.

 

I would just hope that some here would understand that when you have people in these leadership positions, it's not kooky to question their veracity once they've been caught out in a number of untruths. Which is why it's so important that these people always tell the truth in these matters - because that serves the true greater good.

 

Don't forget Dr. Birx. She admits to lying and manipulating government documents/directives in her book! There is a good case for her to be prosecuted, yet nothing is being done.

 

Doctor Atlas recalls that when he was on the COVID team, he would bring studies to discuss and use that data to help set policy. He claims no one else in the room (including Redfield, Fauci, and Birx) ever brought any studies to the meetings - that they were more concerned with "talking points" and manipulation of public opinion. Dr. Atlas' claims are backed-up by several releases of government emails. Remember, Fauci and Collins were colluding behind the scenes to destroy the Great Barrington Declaration.

 

According to a recent OIG government report, the NIH did not properly monitor Ecohealth Alliance grants and failed to report gain of function research. 

 

Finally, the CDC has come out publicly and admitted to lying about monitoring the COVID injection safety.

 

Why does anyone believe anything our public "health" bureaucracies are saying?

[Daniel Cooper]

That's the thing - we have people in this forum complaining about "kook" theories. But they seem to have no understanding that having public health officials outright lie about important matters surrounding this pandemic is the very oxygen of conspiracy theories.

 

They are mad at those they label "kooks", when they should be mad at these lying public officials that have created an environment where we can't trust any of these guys.

 

Does anyone actually believe that if hard evidence of harm from these vaccines were to emerge tomorrow that the government health apparatus would ever admit it? Would Fauci, Collins, Brix, etc. etc. readily admit they screwed up? Far more likely that they would decide that keeping that information suppressed was for the greater good (the greater good in this case being what's good for Fauci and his cohorts) and that they .... alas must once again tell the noble lie.

 

This is why it is so vitally important that government officials in these positions should always be forthright with the people. Even if it is not in the short term public good. Because the public being able to have confidence in these people and institutions is always in the long term public interest.

 

There's been a lot of short sighted thinking going on here. Both amongst our public officials, and more than a few people here in this forum.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[smithx]

Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

 

It's not a choice between being a recluse, and acting as if there's no risk at all.  Taking precautions to reduce the chance and number of times you get covid, is reasonable and something reasonable people should be doing.

 

Gal220 has the right idea, but I'd modify the list a bit.

I think you can really limit exposure with 

 

Add to these to your normal oral hygiene routine

-Gargle with Scope or ACT

-Nasal rinses with H202+saline , Xlear, or Nitric Oxide(Sanotize) 

 

Daily

-multivitamin + probiotic with bifidobacterium

 

 

-if you do catch it, treat immediately(Benedryl + lactoferrin, NAC, EGCG, Ivermectin, HCQ + ionic zinc, licorice, nigella sativa, curcumin)

 

To me, the evidence for wearing real N-95 masks is very compelling and they are inexpensive and readily available again now. Wearing a mask when in crowded areas seems like common sense. But if you just hate them and can't wear them even at the risk of your future health, there are still many things you can do to improve your odds. 

 

Not eating indoors at restaurants or going to parties or other crowded events without a mask very significantly reduces your risk. If you just have to do those things, there are still more precautions you can take:

 

Using a nasal spray with iota-carrageenan before and after exposure reduced infection rate by 81% in a double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trial. Everyone should be doing that. These sprays also shortened the time to recovery in other studies, both for covid and flu.

 

Nasal rinses using saline + baking soda showed an 80% reduction in hospitalization, when used twice a day after a patient tested positive. Remember to boil tap water or use distilled. The Neilmed squirt bottle kit is one that was used in this study.

 

The best supported things to take if infected with covid are:

• paxlovid - 80%+ reduction in hospitalization, lower chance of long covid, and the rebound effect seems to happen less with paxlovid than people who were not treated, so don't be concerned about it.
• melatonin, at least 10mg per night, or up to 40mg. Twice a day if you're sleeping anyway.
• famotidine 40mg 2x per day
• CBD - 200mg or more per day. This is also likely a prophylaxis, according to a couple of studies.
• metformin 1500mg per day (if you have it on hand). This one really works very well, but is prescription, which is why I put it last in the list. It would be right under paxlovid if this list were strictly in order of efficacy.

 

Lactoferrin also absolutely does kill SARS-CoV-2. You can get it cheaply or use the mouthwash Salivea, which contains lactoferrin and is basically a duplicate of the old version of Biotene.

 

Finally, yes, getting vaccinated does really reduce your chance of getting long covid (various references including https://www.research...rs-1350429/v1).

 

Edited by smithx, 26 January 2023 - 08:02 PM.

[Hip]

You keep posting the study results (THE EXACT VERBIAGE) and then say ....no no no, that is not what they are saying. They are clearly saying that if you get re-infected with COVID, you have the same risk of hospitalization and death, no matter if you have been vaccinated or boosted.

 

You seem to be struggling to understand this scientific study. Often people who are attracted to sensationalist, rage-baiting articles are often not able to understand science, so they go for the easy reading of sensationalism.

 

 

If you want to understand that paper I posted, you might like re-read the following statement from the paper 10 or 20 times, and think about it as you read:

 

"Compared to someone who has never been infected before, a person acquiring a second COVID infection has twice the chance of dying".

 

This statement the paper said said applies to both the unvaccinated and the vaccinated. 

 

What that bolded statement means is that:

 

If you are unvaccinated, you have a certain percentage risk of dying after your first COVID infection. Call that risk U%. What the study found is that on your second infection, your risk of dying was increased to 2 X U.

 

If you are vaccinated, you also have a certain percentage risk of dying after your first COVID infection (but less risk than the unvaccinated people). Call that risk V%. What the study found is that on your second infection, your risk of dying was increased to 2 X V.

 

In both cases, the risk of dying increases on the second infection, in relation to the risk you had as an individual for the first infection. 

 

 

The study does not say that vaccination has no benefit. But what it does say that irrespective of whether you have been vaccinated or not, your percentage risk of dying after your second COVID infection is 2 times whatever your risk was for the first infection. It is a relative increase in risk, relative to the risk at the time of the first infection. And the risk at the time of your first infection greatly depends on your vaccination status.

 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 27 January 2023 - 12:28 AM.

[Hip]

How abuse and threats from antivaxers contributed to Jacinda Ardern's shock resignation as PM of New Zealand. 

 

 

[Empiricus]

How abuse and threats from antivaxers contributed to Jacinda Ardern's shock resignation as PM of New Zealand. 

 

What goes around comes around.  

[zorba990]

Indeed, the slithering back under the rock has begun.

Bill Gates — After Reaping Huge Profits Selling BioNTech Shares — Trashes Effectiveness of COVID Vaccines
https://childrenshea...covid-vaccines/

Edited by zorba990, 28 January 2023 - 04:29 PM.

[Gal220]

Latest from Edward Dowd

https://twitter.com/...403941028179968

"Excess claims/mortality for Q3 22 group life as computed by the society of actuaries (SOA) for 0-44 age group will be 23.9% I am being told. About the same as Q2"

 

Edited by Gal220, 29 January 2023 - 12:25 AM.

[Daniel Cooper]

How abuse and threats from antivaxers contributed to Jacinda Ardern's shock resignation as PM of New Zealand. 

 

Jacinda Ardern resigned because she abused the citizens of her country and her party is on a path to take a beating in the next election.

[Hip]

What goes around comes around.  

 

Good, so you will get your comeuppance too.

[Daniel Cooper]

Good, so you will get your comeuppance too.

 

We all do in the end.

[Hip]

Indeed, the slithering back under the rock has begun.

Bill Gates — After Reaping Huge Profits Selling BioNTech Shares — Trashes Effectiveness of COVID Vaccines
https://childrenshea...covid-vaccines/

 

The only people who should be slithering back under rocks are the posters of scientific disinformation on Longecity. You know who you are!

 

What a moron-bait article from Children's Health Defense, an antivax propaganda rag. Bill Gates is not trashing the current crop of COVID vaccines. He is just saying we should develop better ones. That's known as progress. 

 

As opposed to regression, which is the primary trajectory of the antivaxers.

 

These dumb antivaxers were convinced that the mercury preservative in vaccines was causing the autism epidemic. So they campaigned years to get mercury taken out (even though you get more mercury in your bloodstream from eating a tuna sandwich than you do from a vaccine — but they never campaigned against tunafish!). Eventually because of public pressure, the mercury was removed from vaccines. Not for scientific reasons, but just as a result of antivaxer brigade pressure.

 

And what happened to autism incidence after the mercury was removed? Autism continued to increase. So the idiot antivaxers got a load of egg on their faces, from which they have never recovered.

Edited by Hip, 29 January 2023 - 06:04 AM.