2089 replies to this topic

[Hip]

Just found this paper which looks at the risk of long COVID from omicron, and the reduction in that risk from vaccination:

 

Among omicron cases, 2501 (4·5%) of 56 003 people experienced long COVID and, among delta cases, 4469 (10·8%) of 41 361 people experienced long COVID. Omicron cases were less likely to experience long COVID for all vaccine timings, with an odds ratio ranging from 0·24 (0·20–0·32) to 0·50 (0·43–0·59).

Edited by Hip, 10 August 2023 - 04:51 PM.

[Hip]

Just so that people understand the horrors of long COVID, I just performed this search for the word "suicide" on one of the Reddit long COVID forums.

 

Notice how a lot of LC patients are thinking about suicide, and some have attempted suicide. 

 

When a medical condition gets so bad that you just want to end your life, you know that the illness must be hell.

[Daniel Cooper]

That is a most untrue statement. I would say that in this pandemic, the issue of death from COVID is secondary to the risk of contracting ME/CFS long COVID. Your risk of developing long COVID is around 1 in 100 each time you catch COVID. So this is a very substantial risk, and having ME/CFS for the rest of your life is worse than being locked up in jail on a life sentence. 

 

I pointed out that long COVID is a far more dire issue in this pandemic multiple times, but the message does not seem to be getting to people here.  

 

Admittedly COVID vaccines do not reduce LC risk by much, only by 30%. But lifelong imprisonment with long COVID is hell, so anything you can do to avoid LC makes sense.

 

Here's the problem with what you're saying - we really don't have good data on the incidence of Long Covid.

 

And there is a fundamental problem with getting that data - Long Covid is a subjective diagnosis. There is no objective test for Long Covid. The doctors listens to your story, looks at your reported symptoms, and decides whether or not he thinks you have Long Covid.

 

There's a problem with that and you're probably not going to like and will disagree with what I'm about to say:

 

There is a great deal of overlap between the symptoms of Long Covid and any number of anxiety or depression disorders. Which of course are also subjective diagnosis. 

 

Am I saying there is no such thing as "Long Covid". No, not at all.

 

Am I saying that not everyone that self reports having Long Covid has Long Covid? Absolutely. 

 

I've listened to a lot of Long Covid stories on various forums on the internet. From hearing these stories, my opinion is that a non-inconsequential number of the people that report having Long Covid have instead pre-existing anxiety disorders. They then got covid and assigned the constellation of symptoms they have, most of which they had in some form prior to having covid to being the result of "Long Covid". 

 

So my belief is:

 

• I think there are a cohort of people that have an organic physiological condition called Long Covid that is the result of their prior covid infection.

 

• I think there is another cohort of people with significant preexisting anxiety disorders that have latched on to Long Covid as the cause for their anxiety issues and resulting somatic symptoms after a covid infection.

 

• I think there may be another cohort of people with preexisting anxiety disorders that had their anxiety issues worsened by their covid infection through some essentially physiological process to be determined.

 

Now, this is all just my opinion but I would suggest that if you look around there is evidence to back some of this up, and if you're honest with yourself you will admit that some in the ME/CFC and Long Covid community that you have encountered seem to have some preexisting anxiety disorder.  

 

Now, how you separate out these various cohorts and figure out what is truly caused by prior covid infection, I have no clue. But, I'd pretty much guarantee you that the rate of Long Covid occurrence is being inflated by a number of patients that are battling anxiety (which btw took a huge spike during the pandemic/lockdown) rather than something caused by covid.

 

I have also read comments by people in the ME/CFS community that are promoting pumping up the reported numbers of Long Covid patients because they see it as a vehicle to get significant funding to investigate this disorder that they believe will in the long run benefit ME/CFS patients. I understand that position, but that's not science.

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 10 August 2023 - 06:49 PM.

[Hip]

Long Covid is a subjective diagnosis. There is no objective test for Long Covid. The doctors listens to your story, looks at your reported symptoms, and decides whether or not he thinks you have Long Covid.

 

There are objective tests for long COVID. It's not murky and subjective as you are making out. 

 

Long COVID is a label given to 3 distinct diseases (principally) that are triggered by a COVID infection:

 

(1) Myalgic encephalomyelitis / chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS)

(2) Postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS)

(3) Heart or lung damage sustained during the acute COVID infection

 

Each of these diseases has a very precise means of diagnosing them.

 

POTS is diagnosed with simple objective measurements of heart function. It's not subjective at all, it is diagnosed based on precise measurements of your heart. POTS patients cannot control their blood circulation, due typically to a virally-triggered dysfunction of their autonomic nerves, which means that insufficient blood reaches their brain when they are in an upright standing position, which causes a whole host of symptoms. The virus screws up your autonomic nervous system, and the result is POTS.

 

In the case of ME/CFS, the diagnosis is performed using a set of criteria, such as the famous Canadian consensus criteria, which are internationally used to diagnose ME/CFS in studies. ME/CFS has some fairly unique symptoms such as PEM. The PEM symptom is not found in other conditions like depression or anxiety, so that alone makes it very easy to distinguish ME/CFS from other illnesses. 

 

Only an incompetent doctor would misdiagnose ME/CFS as depression or anxiety, since the diagnostic criteria are very precise.

Edited by Hip, 10 August 2023 - 09:07 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

There are objective tests for long COVID. It's not murky and subjective as you are making out.

 
These guys seem to think the diagnosis of Long Covid is a bit more nebulous than you assert.

 

Identification and diagnosis of long COVID-19: A scoping review

 

 

From that paper:

 

 

 

Currently, Long COVID-19 (LC-19) is defined as a condition following recovery from acute COVID-19 infection or unresolved COVID-19 illness with symptoms not attributable to any other condition. Typical symptoms include fatigue, shortness of breath, cough, chest pain, neurological issues, and many others. Opinions about the timing are not unilateral, with some clinicians believing it starts four weeks to four months after the acute illness (Sisó-Almirall et al., 2021). In contrast, other studies only stipulate a symptom duration of >6 weeks as defining LC-19 (Duerlund et al., 2022). The WHO-led Delphi study defines the timing as three months from the onset of the acute disease, with symptoms lasting at least two months (Soriano et al., 2022). Furthermore, LC-19 symptoms can present in an episodic nature, where symptoms resolve and return over varying time points (Brown and O’Brien, 2021). Clinicians have a general process for LC-19 diagnosis through evaluation of symptoms and exclusion of other conditions to reach a conclusion. However, no uniform guidelines are in place for LC-19 to aid in standardized and earlier detection. While this general process is typically followed, since LC-19 manifests in various forms and a vast array of clinical presentations, diagnosing it is challenging due to multiple definitions and diagnostic standard.

 

[Daniel Cooper]

Ditto for the CDC (July 2023):
 
CDC: Long COVID or Post-COVID Conditions


 
Here are the CDC's list of long covid symptoms. I would say that all but two or three are common symptoms of an anxiety disorder.


Incidentally - I see a lot of people with a long covid diagnosis that report a fast/erratic heart rate or palpitations that claim POTs as a symptoms, but a significant number fail to show up as POTs on a tilt table test. I have no doubt whatsoever that their heart rate is doing very weird and inappropriate things, but of those that actually get a tilt table test a great deal of them to not meet the diagnostic criteria for POTS.

 

 

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 10 August 2023 - 09:28 PM.

[Hip]

 These guys seem to think the diagnosis of Long Covid is a bit more nebulous than you assert.

 

Identification and diagnosis of long COVID-19: A scoping review

 

There may be some other conditions which follow COVID infection, and are more nebulous. I am sure there may be some of people with idiosyncratic chronic symptoms after COVID.

 

I heard one story of a high-flying lawyer who after getting COVID found his brain changed, and he was no longer able to cope so well with all the stress of the office. His stress reliance was weakened after COVID. That's not generalised anxiety disorder as such, but a some unnamed psychiatric sequelae of an acute COVID infection. 

 

In my case, COVID cause my right ear canal to become itchy. It's been itchy ever since I caught COVID 16 months ago. Probably caused by some nerve damage in the ear area. Not a big deal at all, but it shows that COVID can cause all sorts of quirky long-term symptoms.

 

But these idiosyncratic cases aside, the principle diseases that comprise long COVID are clearly defined and delineated, and are mainly ME/CFS and POTS. 

 

Indeed, I think people will eventually stop using the umbrella term long COVID, and just refer to the proper name of the disease that COVID triggered, calling them ME/CFS or POTS.

 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 10 August 2023 - 09:19 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

BTW - let me be clear: I'm not saying that Long Covid does not exist. I'm saying that there is a lot of overlap between the constellation of symptoms between LC and various anxiety disorders and that from a practical point of view there is no clear way to sort patients into these two categories since both diagnosis are essentially made on a subjective observation of the symptoms and the patient history.

 

You could easily have two patients present with exactly the same symptoms, but one reports having had covid and the other does not. The first most likely gets a diagnosis of Long Covid, the second gets a diagnosis of Anxiety Disorder.  

 

Having a single item of the patient history determine the diagnosis is a bad criteria. The first patient could easily also have an anxiety disorder and the covid infection be completely incidental to his condition.

 

 

[Hip]

Incidentally - I see a lot of people with a long covid diagnosis that report a fast/erratic heart rate or Palpitations that claim POTs as a symptoms, but a significant fail to show up as POTs on a tilt table test. I have no doubt whatsoever that their heart rate is doing very weird and inappropriate things, but of those that actually get a tilt table test a great deal of them to not meet the diagnostic criteria for POTS.

 

POTS is one of the most common conditions resulting from a dysfunction of the autonomic nervous system, but it is not the only one.

 

If you get virally-triggered autonomic dysfunction, you can also end up with neurally mediated hypotension (NMH), which confusingly also goes by a number of other synonymous names, such as neurally mediated syncope and neurocardiogenic syncope. I've seen some LC patients with NMH.

 

Another condition that can be caused by autonomic dysfunction is orthostatic hypotension (OH).

 

NMH and OH are conditions in which your blood pressure drops upon standing. In OH the pressure drop is immediate; in NMH the drop occurs after a long period of time standing, or also sometimes after having an unpleasant or upsetting experience.

 

By contrast, there is no blood pressure drop in POTS on standing, but your heart rate will shoot up on standing. In fact, it is really simple to diagnose POTS at home, without a tilt table: you just lie down horizontally for 10 minutes and relax. Then you stand up, and if at any time in the next few minutes when standing your heart rate increases by 30 bpm or more, then you are diagnosed with POTS. It's a very easy and totally objective diagnostic test.

 

 

 

Patients can have POTS, NMH or OH as diseases on their own. But you often find that ME/CFS patients will have one of these autonomic dysfunction diseases as a comorbid condition to their ME/CFS. 

 

This is my case: I have ME/CFS, but also have mild POTS as well. Both were triggered by an enteroviral infection. 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 10 August 2023 - 09:39 PM.

[Hip]

I'm not saying that Long Covid does not exist. I'm saying that there is a lot of overlap between the constellation of symptoms between LC and various anxiety disorders and that from a practical point of view there is no clear way to sort patients into these two categories since both diagnosis are essentially made on a subjective observation of the symptoms and the patient history. 

 

Sure, but this is nothing new. Long before COVID came on the scene, diseases such as anxiety, depression, ME/CFS, POTS, etc existed, and you often find that a given patient can have more than one of these diseases simultaneously, which can be both confusing and overwhelming.

 

 

A sizeable portion of ME/CFS patients have depression, for example, and many have POTS. A few ME/CFS patients have one or more anxiety disorders (anxiety disorders include GAD, panic disorder, OCD, social anxiety and PTSD). Some ME/CFS patients have derealisation, a very disconcerting mental health condition. 

 

Where one disease ends and the other begins is often hard to understand, especially for new patients, who may be hit by multiple diseases at the same time.  It takes a long time to learn which symptoms are caused by which disease. 

 

It's not just ME/CFS which has these psychiatric comorbid illnesses, many neurological diseases do. Multiple sclerosis often comes with depression and anxiety, as does Parkinson's. 

 

It's not surprising that neurological diseases like ME/CFS, MS and Parkinson's produced mental health symptoms though, given that the brain is compromised by the neurological dysfunction of these diseases. 

Edited by Hip, 10 August 2023 - 09:40 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

My point still stands - Long Covid is as of this writing a very squishy hard to pin down diagnosis. You have this whole constellation of symptoms, most of which also read on to anxiety and depression disorders. You don't need to have every symptom to get a diagnosis and given the overlap it is fairly easy to present with a list of symptoms that completely overlaps with generalized anxiety.

 

Do some of these people have post covid/long covid issues? Yes. Do some of these people have an anxiety disorder? Also yes.

 

This makes nailing down the rate of Long Covid complications very difficult and prone to inflation, even unintentionally.

 

 

[Hip]

My point still stands - Long Covid is as of this writing a very squishy hard to pin down diagnosis. You have this whole constellation of symptoms, most of which also read on to anxiety and depression disorders. You don't need to have every symptom to get a diagnosis and given the overlap it is fairly easy to present with a list of symptoms that completely overlaps with generalized anxiety.

 

Do some of these people have post covid/long covid issues? Yes. Do some of these people have an anxiety disorder? Also yes.

 

This makes nailing down the rate of Long Covid complications very difficult and prone to inflation, even unintentionally.

 

Are you referring to the ME/CFS form of long COVID? Given that LC consists of 3 main illnesses, we should specify what subtype of LC we mean.

 

If you are talking about the ME/CFS form of LC, some doctors might struggle to come up with a correct diagnosis, and may find it extra difficult when their ME/CFS patient also presents with comorbid depression and anxiety. Certainly 30 years ago, before modern diagnostic criteria were developed, it was hard for doctors to differentiate between ME/CFS and depression. 

 

And in countries like France and Germany, doctors are largely ignorant of ME/CFS, so often misdiagnose ME/CFS as depression. Fortunately in the Anglosphere we are more advanced in our understanding. 

 

 

 

Have you seen the AI medical diagnostic service called Symptoma? If you enter some of the classic symptoms of ME/CFS, it will correctly diagnose you. Likewise if you enter some of the classic symptoms of anxiety or depression.

 

AI chatbots are also pretty good at medical diagnosis. 

Edited by Hip, 10 August 2023 - 09:53 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

My point still stands - Long Covid is as of this writing a very squishy hard to pin down diagnosis. You have this whole constellation of symptoms, most of which also read on to anxiety and depression disorders. You don't need to have every symptom to get a diagnosis and given the overlap it is fairly easy to present with a list of symptoms that completely overlaps with generalized anxiety.

 

Do some of these people have post covid/long covid issues? Yes. Do some of these people have an anxiety disorder? Also yes.

 

This makes nailing down the rate of Long Covid complications very difficult and prone to inflation, even unintentionally.

 

I wonder if having a soul-sucking, brutally unpleasant & futureless job might pre-dispose Long Covid?  

 

Oh doc!  Got the long 'rona.  Don't know if I'm going to be able to resume my career down at the abattoir anytime soon.  

[Hip]

I wonder if having a soul-sucking, brutally unpleasant & futureless job might pre-dispose Long Covid?  

 

Actually, in the 1980s, when ME/CFS was described in the newspapers as "yuppie flu", it was the high-flyers with glamorous, well-paid careers who often developed ME/CFS. That's why they called ME/CFS yuppie flu, because it seemed to hit yuppies a lot.

 

They were young urban professionals (yuppies) who had spectacular lifestyles, obscene amounts of money, lots of womanising, and endless parties, as was characteristic of high-flying careers in the 1980s.

 

Then all of a sudden, they found themselves so profoundly ill and so deeply weak and fatigued that they were unable to leave their homes, and often unable to even get out of bed, except for a few hours just to eat, go to the toilet, etc. 

 

So it was often the people with everything to live for, and with the most amazing lifestyles, who were hit with ME/CFS.

 

So that does not really fit with your theory of life avoidance. 

 

 

Also, if you speak to anyone with ME/CFS, they are always desperate to get back to normal life. They would give anything to be cured, so that they can go back to the life they once had. So no, ME/CFS is not an excuse for life avoidance. Not in the slightest. 

 

 

 

Note that for decades ME/CFS has been portrayed as just laziness, a poor attitude, bored of life, malingering, etc. Even today, lots of the general public and some doctors view ME/CFS as not a disease, but just someone lacking in the right attitude. But this is just ignorance. And there has always been a lot of ignorance. 

 

Multinational disability insurance companies also reprehensibly encouraged this erroneous view that ME/CFS was just poor attitude, so that they could avoid having to make expensive payouts to patients. If you can paint ME/CFS as just poor attitude or malingering, then you can save yourself $billions by not having to provide disability support. So these scumbag insurance companies promoted the lie that ME/CFS was not a real disease. 

Edited by Hip, 11 August 2023 - 12:53 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

Not sayin' there's no such thing as ME/CFS, & yep, I bet yuppies who got this dearly wanted to get back into their groove; but what if you get COVID & you're not a yuppie?  What if you truly have a soul-sucking job dispatching and butchering chickens down at the Tyson foods plant, you get COVID, and your doc says: "Oh dear, I hope you don't develop long covid...  You may never be able to work again!"  

 

Do malingerers exist at all?  And might there not be some milking COVID for disability?  

[Hip]

 What if you truly have a soul-sucking job dispatching and butchering chickens down at the Tyson foods plant, you get COVID, and your doc says: "Oh dear, I hope you don't develop long covid...  You may never be able to work again!"  

 

Do malingerers exist at all?  And might there not be some milking COVID for disability?  

 

I am sure there are dishonest people milking their disability insurance companies. But you don't need COVID for this; a dishonest person may say they are depressed, for example, and claim they cannot work, and then receive disability.

 

Illnesses like depression and ME/CFS do not have much in the way of objective tests, so if you are good at lying, you may be able to trick your doctor into thinking you are ill, and then claim disability. Just how common such deceptions are, I am not sure. 

 

But there is also the other end of the stick, whereby government welfare department and disability insurance companies may refuse to provide disability support even in genuine cases. In the UK some years back, the government made it much tougher to claim disability, and this resulted in 4000 depressed people committing suicide, because they were refused help. This is well documented. 

[Gal220]

That is a most untrue statement. I would say that in this pandemic, the issue of death from COVID is secondary to the risk of contracting ME/CFS long COVID. Your risk of developing long COVID is around 1 in 100 each time you catch COVID. So this is a very substantial risk, and having ME/CFS for the rest of your life is worse than being locked up in jail on a life sentence. 

 

I pointed out that long COVID is a far more dire issue in this pandemic multiple times, but the message does not seem to be getting to people here.  

 

Admittedly COVID vaccines do not reduce LC risk by much, only by 30%. But lifelong imprisonment with long COVID is hell, so anything you can do to avoid LC makes sense.

 

New mortality data for 0-24

https://twitter.com/...698371559145472

 

 

One in 35 Mycardial injury with the booster, Switzerland study

[adamh]

Every vaccine has side effects. But the benefits outweigh the risks. I've been vaxed boosted and am happy to have avoided getting seriously ill with COVID. The idea that there is media conspiracy to cover up sudden deaths is a conspiracy theory and many people sadly go down those rabbit holes these days. 

 

They say the time gap between so called conspiracy theory and proven fact has narrowed considerably. There is already a lot of evidence that the shot is harmful and that some batches are much worse than others. Robert malone is a prominant virologist who has said the shot is harmful. There are many other doctors and scientists who say the same thing. There are autopsies showing fibers in the veins and arteries of people who died after the shot. This has never been seen before

 

There is statistical evidence in what is called "excess deaths" or the number of deaths more than the historical average. Some of those can be attributed to covid itself but after deducting the deaths due to covid there is still a substantial number of unexplained excess deaths. Then there is the trend of sudden death in otherwise young and healthy people. Some of it can be explained away but much can't

 

Then there is the common fact that people notice among their friends and family that those who took the shot usually come down with covid and get it multiple times. Many who took the shot and went on to develop cancer, heart disease etc. Those who didn't take the jab may get covid once and then never again

 

Some people are in what I would call frantic denial. If they can dig up some study or odd fact that casts doubt on the danger of the shot, they feel as though they are refuting the disease itself. Its like they are trying to win an argument with death as though winning a debate will somehow protect their health. Better to take ivermectin along with vitamins and a good diet and of course to stop taking the shots. I wonder if those arguing against the danger of the shot keep taking boosters or do they believe the dangers enough that they stopped taking it out of caution even though they will not admit its harmful? At a minimum don't take any more boosters

[Hip]

There is statistical evidence in what is called "excess deaths" or the number of deaths more than the historical average. Some of those can be attributed to covid itself but after deducting the deaths due to covid there is still a substantial number of unexplained excess deaths.

 
You are late to the party on these COVID threads, and so you missed the discussion about New Zealand, which had no COVID when the vaccines were rolled out, and is one of the only countries with no excess deaths during the rollout year. Ergo, vaccines do not result in excess deaths, but COVID infection does. 

 

 

Many who took the shot and went on to develop cancer, heart disease etc.

 

What is your reference for that statement?

 

To engage in serious discussion, bring with you some scientific references to support you claims, don't just post unsubstantiated hearsay you read on social media.

 

TikTok and other low IQ social media platforms are not valid scientific references.

 

 

[Hip]

New mortality data for 0-24
https://twitter.com/...698371559145472
 
 
One in 35 Mycardial injury with the booster, Switzerland study

 
Ever heard of the fable of the boy who cried wolf?

 

You have posted so many false alarms regarding fake news vaccine risks, Gal220, that if you ever post a story of a genuine vaccine risk, people will not believe you, because you cried wolf too many times.

 

 

In this latest case of crying wolf, quack peddler John Campbell has "exaggerated the clinical significance of the elevated troponin levels in the blood of some mRNA vaccine recipients. This elevation was actually transient, mild, and in the range of what intense exercise can produce. Furthermore, the study reported no abnormalities in heart imaging or electrocardiogram". Source: here.

Edited by Hip, 11 August 2023 - 09:07 PM.

[adamh]

Hip wrote:

 

"New Zealand, which had no COVID when the vaccines were rolled out, and is one of the only countries with no excess deaths during the rollout year. Ergo, vaccines do not result in excess deaths, but COVID infection does."

 

Got anything to verify that statement? You want everyone to back up every word they say but you just make sweeping statements without anything to verify. I gave the name of a prominent doctor who you will no doubt sneer at since he contradicts your beliefs. You want links? Here is another one for you to sneer at https://twitter.com/...nd-2023-n568931

 

"To engage in serious discussion, bring with you some scientific references to support you claims,"

 

Indeed, so go right ahead and back up your recent statement. Rather than desperately trying to win arguments using suspicious claims, why not look at the facts. You are not going to help yourself recover from the shot by arguing. By the way, do you still take boosters? When do you plan to take the next one?

[Hip]

Hip wrote:

 

"New Zealand, which had no COVID when the vaccines were rolled out, and is one of the only countries with no excess deaths during the rollout year. Ergo, vaccines do not result in excess deaths, but COVID infection does."

 

Got anything to verify that statement? 

 

You are rehashing discussions that already took place on these COVID threads. We have discussed excess deaths a great deal, and in particular, the zero excess deaths in New Zealand, a country which was vaccinated, but did not have COVID until very recently. 

 

You can read my previous posts such as this one or this one about the NZ data that demonstrates no excess deaths after the vaccine rollout.

[adamh]

So, nothing to back up your statement and you ignore my link. You link to discussions in which you repeat your new zealand claims and complain about someone who disputed them. Digging up anomalous data does not prove the shot is safe. Data from one area can be faked, we know government lied about who died from covid. Any death if they coughed was called covid, even some traffic fatalities. Looking at national or world data gives a better picture. Even allowing for deaths from covid, excess mortality continues.

 

There is no point in arguing with you, I realize that. You are not going to give an inch of ground because you feel that your denials protect you from the dangers and if you admit anything, then you will be doomed. How about the question of whether you are still taking the boosters and do you plan to keep taking them when a new one comes out? Even if you don't believe the data showing harm from the shot, do you really think its a positive? Most likely you stopped taking them and don't want to discuss that fact because it would show you have weakened in your beliefs. Put aside pride and take ivermectin, it helps destroy the spike protiens

[geo12the]

They say the time gap between so called conspiracy theory and proven fact has narrowed considerably. There is already a lot of evidence that the shot is harmful and that some batches are much worse than others. Robert malone is a prominant virologist who has said the shot is harmful. There are many other doctors and scientists who say the same thing. There are autopsies showing fibers in the veins and arteries of people who died after the shot. This has never been seen before

 

There is statistical evidence in what is called "excess deaths" or the number of deaths more than the historical average. Some of those can be attributed to covid itself but after deducting the deaths due to covid there is still a substantial number of unexplained excess deaths. Then there is the trend of sudden death in otherwise young and healthy people. Some of it can be explained away but much can't

 

Then there is the common fact that people notice among their friends and family that those who took the shot usually come down with covid and get it multiple times. Many who took the shot and went on to develop cancer, heart disease etc. Those who didn't take the jab may get covid once and then never again

 

Some people are in what I would call frantic denial. If they can dig up some study or odd fact that casts doubt on the danger of the shot, they feel as though they are refuting the disease itself. Its like they are trying to win an argument with death as though winning a debate will somehow protect their health. Better to take ivermectin along with vitamins and a good diet and of course to stop taking the shots. I wonder if those arguing against the danger of the shot keep taking boosters or do they believe the dangers enough that they stopped taking it out of caution even though they will not admit its harmful? At a minimum don't take any more boosters

 

I recommend people due their due diligence. There have always been conspiracy theories floating around but these days they are seeping into the mainstream more due to social media. People believe all sorts of crazy stuff based on things they hear or things their favorite pundits or internet gurus or politicians say. I was dealing with this issue with my mom who would always say to me: “Did you hear (insert crazy story here)”. I had to explain to her that social media was full of crazy stories meant to hook people in and play on their tribal and political allegiances. I think she gets it now and is more skeptical of stuff she sees.

 

“There is already a lot of evidence that the shot is harmful” I just don’t see it. Why must I believe Malone and other anti-vax people, when most of the reputable scientists say otherwise? Every day some people will die, every day some people will become ill. The anti-vax people try to say every death, every illness is caused by vaccines. It’s simply not true. YES, there are side effects to all vaccines. In some rare cases severe. No one is denying that. I am not denying that. But there is simply no evidence to corroborate the sky-is-falling claims of the anti-vax people. You’ve got influencers and gurus and crazy politicians like RFK Jr., who are misleading people.

 

“Then there is the common fact that people notice among their friends and family that those who took the shot usually come down with covid and get it multiple times.” I have family who did NOT take the vaccine. They have come down with COVID multiple times. I have family who did take the vaccine. Some of those have come down with COVID multiple times. FWIW, the only thing I have noticed among them is that the vaxed people who get COVID have had milder symptoms among the people I know. Sister in law who was NOT vaxed was sick for a month, and subsequently developed eczema like allergy symptoms that required her to start monthly XOLAIR injections. Sister in law who was vaxed just got COVID and is mostly asymptomatic. Both were healthy women before COVID. I am not noticing an epidemic of sickness among the vaxed people I know. I did have family and friends and acquaintances die from COVID before the vaccines became available.  

 

“If they can dig up some study or odd fact that casts doubt on the danger of the shot,” The other side digs up odd facts to try to demonstrate the shots are dangerous. That is the reason it’s important to look at the big picture and follow the science. The whole point of the COVID vaccine, that I have repeated over and over here, is to introduce our immune systems to the pathogen, so our immune systems would be in a better position to fight this new not before seen threat. And they have done that successfully.  

[joesixpack]

This is an interesting study titled:

 

 

The Combination of Bromelain and Acetylcysteine (BromAc) Synergistically Inactivates SARS-CoV-2

Here:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/33800932/

[Gal220]

 
Ever heard of the fable of the boy who cried wolf?

 

Interesting choice of words, new data comes out every day, perhaps the person you reference should look at some actual data from a hospital

https://twitter.com/...800823787368449

 

Which is exactly what many nurses have been telling us

https://twitter.com/...454445103542274

https://twitter.com/...758299083444224

https://twitter.com/...709473826803713

https://twitter.com/...915612066967552

 

 

Follow up data showed 50% of children still have myocardial scarring after 1 year

"https://twitter.com/...601599839866882

 

 

Nothing to say on the other link on 0-24 mortality data from Wonder?

https://twitter.com/...698371559145472

 

Cancer mortality up 24% for 0-54

https://twitter.com/...338593133449217

 

 

I just wonder how much death and disability it will take for people to snap out of the spell

Edited by Gal220, 13 August 2023 - 10:33 AM.

[Hip]

This is an interesting study titled:

 

 

The Combination of Bromelain and Acetylcysteine (BromAc) Synergistically Inactivates SARS-CoV-2

Here:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/33800932/

 

Sadly, there is not a hope in hell of this antiviral combination working in vivo.

 

If you look at the in vitro concentrations used, they are extremely high:

 

Bromelain concentration = 100 µg/ml

N-acetyl cysteine (NAC) concentration = 20 mg/ml = 20,000 µg/ml

 

 

 

To achieve the NAC concentration, you would need to orally consume about 3000 capsules of NAC, by my calculations. That dose would be completely toxic.

 

So like nearly all in vitro studies of COVID antivirals, this one does not pan out in vivo.

[geo12the]

So one person said "“If they can dig up some study or odd fact that casts doubt on the danger of the shot,”, but that is essentially what I see all of the anti-vax side doing. Looking at their gurus and Twitter (not what I consider a reliable source of science information. anyone on Twitter can post anything any lie and it's never checked) for little tidbits of information to say the vaccine is deadly. Case in point one person pointed out: "Cancer mortality up 24% for 0-54 https://twitter.com/...8593133449217".If the vaccines are causing cancer its a big deal. But are they? Caveat #1: It's not clear who "Ethical Skeptic" is, exactly where they got this data and how they even analyzed it. I trust published peer-reviewed data, not stuff posted an Twitter or Facebook. Caveat #2: I remember during the pandemic there was concern about the decrease in screening of cancer and other diseases. From the National cancer institute: "As the coronavirus pandemic raged in 2020, the number of people getting screened for cancer in the United States dropped dramatically...An estimated 9.4 million screening tests that normally would have taken place in the United States in 2020 didn’t happen. These missed screenings, many experts worry, could potentially lead to cancers being diagnosed at a more advanced stage and, ultimately, to more people dying from cancer." See here. If the vaccines cause cancer it will come out. But as of now there is no evidence that is the case, regardless of what Twitter  guru-philosophers-influencers post about it.  "I just wonder how much death and disability it will take for people to snap out of the spell" -When I actually see death and disability I will believe it. Right now it is you who are under a spell.

 

 

Edited by geo12the, 14 August 2023 - 06:20 PM.

[Empiricus]

I suspect that many of the antivaxers on this forum may be suffering from OCD. People with OCD are notoriously afraid of catching germs; but these are also often very fearful of any chemical or toxin contamination to their body. They have this obsession with bodily purity. 

 

I have a friend with OCD, and he will not take any pharmaceutical drug, because in his ignorance, he erroneously believes that once a drug has entered your body, it will poison and compromise the body for the rest of your life!

 

Is this what you believe, adamh? Do you irrationally believe that once you take any drug or vaccine, your body is irrevocably poisoned? You refer to getting a COVID vaccine as a "horrible life altering mistake", so I wondered if you are OCD about drugs, chemicals and bodily purity?

 

Even healthy young people with natural immunity need COVID vaccinations. Yet these healthy people surely have OCD if they are concerned whether a novel vaccine could have long-term adverse health effects.  

 

Thank you Hip for reminding us of the level of logic of the public health authorities. 

Edited by Empiricus, 15 August 2023 - 03:44 PM.

[Hip]

Even healthy young people with natural immunity need COVID vaccinations. Yet these healthy people surely have OCD if they are concerned whether a novel vaccine could have long-term adverse health effects.  

 

Thank you Hip for reminding us of the level of logic of the public health authorities. 

 

I am not claiming everyone with vaccine fears has OCD, but I suspect OCD may be an explanation in many cases of vaccine phobia on Longecity. 

 

If you look at how extensive the mental health sub-forums of Longecity are, you realise that this site attracts people with mental health disorders such as OCD.

 

Indeed, people with OCD can have an intense fear of death, thus prompting interest in life extension sites like Longecity. 

 

So Longecity may be a magnet for people with OCD and a fear of death, explaining why there is so much OCD-driven vaccine phobia on this forum.

Edited by Hip, 15 August 2023 - 04:18 PM.