2092 replies to this topic

[joesixpack]

More antivax bullshit from the scientifically clueless of Longecity.

 

Get a grip on reality please. SARS-CoV-2 has spread to most people around the world, and is sitting in their bodies as a ticking viral time bomb. This is why many studies have shown that in the year after you catch COVID, you are twice as likely to die compared to people who did not catch COVID, because of the pernicious effects of having this virus living in your body.

 

SARS-CoV-2 has been found to persist in the respiratory tract, including the lungs, as well as in the gastrointestinal tract, the heart, brain, and other organs. Researchers are still trying to uncover the full range of tissues and organs in which the virus may persist.

 

One study found that SARS-CoV-2 likes to infect dopamine cells of the brain, so could lead to Parkinson's-like symptoms in years to come. And major review paper found that children infected with COVID have more depression and anxiety that uninfected kids. Having this virus in your body is detrimental to mental health.

 

Vaccines do not cause diseases, pathogens do. I suggest you write that phrase down, and recite it every day. 

 

Regarding this quote, see the article below.

 

This articles details the cases of 26 people that came down with a new version of Mad Cow disease within 11 days of receiving the Covid vaccine. All but one died at the time of publication this month. It is a new version of the disease because of its rapid onset and development.

 

https://ijvtpr.com/i...cle/view/66/182

[Hip]

Regarding this quote, see the article below.

 

This articles details the cases of 26 people that came down with a new version of Mad Cow disease within 11 days of receiving the Covid vaccine. All but one died at the time of publication this month. It is a new version of the disease because of its rapid onset and development.

 

https://ijvtpr.com/i...cle/view/66/182

 

Doesn't look good to begin with to have homeopathy quack Luc Montagnier as one of the authors. 

 

I don't have the energy to investigate every single antivax paper posted here, especially as from past experience in investigating, it mostly turns out to be bunk.  

 

However, if you want an informed opinion on the paper, there are websites where you can hire scientific experts by the hour, for around $40 per hour. So you could hire someone to read the paper and give their expert view.

Edited by Hip, 25 January 2024 - 03:20 AM.

[joesixpack]

Doesn't look good to begin with to have homeopathy quack Luc Montagnier as one of the authors. 

 

I don't have the energy to investigate every single antivax paper posted here, especially as from past experience in investigating, it mostly turns out to be bunk.  

 

However, if you want an informed opinion on the paper, there are websites where you can hire scientific experts by the hour, for around $40 per hour. So you could hire someone to read the paper and give their expert view.

Well, sorry you don't like the Doctor of one of the 26 dead, or soon to be dead victims, but there are about 25 other doctors involved in the article, and no question that there are 26 victims that developed the disease within 11 days of vaccination. And that it killed 25 of them quickly, far more quickly than traditional Mad Cow disease.

 

You don't think there is maybe, just a little bit of concern here?

[Daniel Cooper]

Vaccines do not cause diseases, pathogens do. I suggest you write that phrase down, and recite it every day. 

 

I would agree that vaccines generally don't cause disease - depending on how you define disease. Oh, every now and then someone will get sick from receiving a attenuated vaccine that either wasn't attenuated enough or they had an unusually weak immune system.

 

But the claim with respect to the covid vaccines is that they may (likely are) causing damage in some people.

 

If the spike protein they cause the body to produce is itself inherently damaging then they could (likely are) causing myocarditis, various neuropathic disorders (Bell's palsy, tinnitus, CNS disorders, encephalopathy, etc.). Those aren't diseases in the fashion of covid, but they are significant medical disorders.

 

To use my 9mm analogy again - If I shot you in the stomach with a 9mm I haven't caused you a disease. But I've likely done some pretty significant damage. 

 

If that paper about there being a small but non-zero chance of the vaccine mRNA getting reverse transcribed into nuclear DNA is correct, then I would say that is in fact a disease caused by the vaccine since you can imagine that potentially causing a cancer.

[DanCG]

Doesn't look good to begin with to have homeopathy quack Luc Montagnier as one of the authors. 

 

 

Dr. Montagnier may be right or he may be wrong. Anybody can be wrong about something. But one thing is clear. YOU do not have the status to be calling a Nobel Lauriat a quack.

Edited by DanCG, 25 January 2024 - 04:31 PM.

[Hip]

Dr. Montagnier may be right or he may be wrong. Anybody can be wrong about something. But one thing is clear. YOU do not have the status to be calling a Nobel Lauriat a quack.

 

The level of ignorance on Longecity is showing up yet again. 

 

Anyone with a modicum of knowledge about science and scientists knows that Nobel Prize winers often become cranks later in life. It's almost an occupational hazard of being a genius, that you later turn to cranky madness. They then become an embarrassment to their fellow scientists. 

 

 

You might like to read this article to help rectify your knowledge gap: Nobel disease: Why some of the world’s greatest scientists eventually go crazy

Edited by Hip, 25 January 2024 - 05:52 PM.

[Hip]

Well, sorry you don't like the Doctor of one of the 26 dead, or soon to be dead victims, but there are about 25 other doctors involved in the article, and no question that there are 26 victims that developed the disease within 11 days of vaccination. And that it killed 25 of them quickly, far more quickly than traditional Mad Cow disease.

 

You don't think there is maybe, just a little bit of concern here?

 

I've mentioned before the fable of the boy who cried wolf.

 

I've seen so many posts on these COVID threads where people have cried wolf on the vaccines (which under further investigation turned out to be bullshit), that I am now immune to vaccine wolf cries. This is the problem when people cry wolf too much.

 

You are quite entitled to believe whatever you like. If you believe the study you posted, that's your choice. I am making no comment about the study, as I have not spent any time looking into it.

 

All I am saying is that people have cried wolf so many times over the COVID vaccines, that I think it's a fair assumption that any further cries of wolf are most probably bullshit too. I am not interested in wasting time on wolf cries (especially because I am now very low on mental energy, as a result of catching COVID two years ago).

 

But if you feel it is important, as you seem to, then by all means put your money where your mouth is, and commission an expert to examine your study. They would probably take an hour or two to look at it, so that will cost you $40 to $80.

Edited by Hip, 25 January 2024 - 06:33 PM.

[Hip]

I would agree that vaccines generally don't cause disease - depending on how you define disease. Oh, every now and then someone will get sick from receiving a attenuated vaccine that either wasn't attenuated enough or they had an unusually weak immune system.

 

But the claim with respect to the covid vaccines is that they may (likely are) causing damage in some people.

 

The issue here is that most people seem unaware of the link between the viruses and bacteria in common circulation and chronic disease. 

 

Therefore, it would never even occur to them that the emergence of a nasty new virus, SARS-CoV-2, might suddenly lead to a plethora of disease and ill health. 

 

If people were better informed on this issue, then when a lot of new disease suddenly appears, their first thought might be that SARS-CoV-2 is a likely cause. 

 

But because they are not informed, they look to the vaccines to pin the blame.

 

 

This is not to say that vaccinates cannot produce adverse effects; it just saying that in these discussions, people need to be better informed about the myriad of diseases which common viruses have been linked to. Then they would realise that in all probability, any new emergence of disease is most likely due to SARS-CoV-2 itself. 

 

This lack of understanding is not just something found on Longecity, but is widespread through the general population. The general populace is well aware that environmental toxins contribute to the risk of chronic disease, but they are generally not aware that infectious pathogens can wreak havoc on your health by causing chronic disease.

Edited by Hip, 25 January 2024 - 06:36 PM.

[DanCG]

The level of ignorance on Longecity is showing up yet again. 

 

Anyone with a modicum of knowledge about science and scientists knows that Nobel Prize winers often become cranks later in life. It's almost an occupational hazard of being a genius, that you later turn to cranky madness. They then become an embarrassment to their fellow scientists. 

 

 

You might like to read this article to help rectify your knowledge gap: Nobel disease: Why some of the world’s greatest scientists eventually go crazy

Regardless of whether some of his ideas may be considered "fringe", the man deserves some degree of respect.

 

Also, along the lines of the point made by Joesixpack, suppose it were true that 24 other scientists were persuaded to put the crazy old man on their paper, --would this erase the fact that so many people died shortly after receiving the vaccine? 

[DanCG]

 

If people were better informed on this issue, then when a lot of new disease suddenly appears, their first thought might be that SARS-CoV-2 is a likely cause. 

 

But because they are not informed, they look to the vaccines to pin the blame.

 

I would settle for a widespread recognition that excess deaths are actually happening and that serious, intensive research into the cause needs to done. So far, the official response has been either “nothing is really out of the ordinary” or “it couldn’t possibly be the vaccines”. When vested interests refuse even address the issue, I am reminded of, “Methinks he doth protest too much”.

[Hip]

Regardless of whether some of his ideas may be considered "fringe", the man deserves some degree of respect.

 

I have the greatest admiration for scientific or mathematical geniuses, as these people play a tremendous role in advancing science. 

 

But it's definitely the case that genius and madness are just a hair's breadth apart, and so genius can easily tumble into madness. 

 

And even people of average intelligence can go mad. You don't have to be a genius to develop schizophrenia or schizotypy. 

 

 

 

The problem with geniuses who go crazy is that their crazy words still carry weight, because of their past reputation. They then become an embarassing problem for science, because they are spouting nonsense, but have a wide audience who believe that nonsense (because the audience comprises scientifically illiterate people).

 

Even today, people ascribe amazing powers to vitamin C, because Linus Pauling, the genius who went cranky in his old age, was promoting it as a universal panacea. In fact we now know from multiple studies that people who consume lots of vitamin C actually have shorter lifespans.  

[Hip]

I would settle for a widespread recognition that excess deaths are actually happening and that serious, intensive research into the cause needs to done. 

 

Nobody is denying excess deaths are occurring. This is exactly what you would expect when a lethal pathogen like SARS-CoV-2 appears on the global scene.

 

And if you are asking why the global amount of excess death is actually higher than the global number of recorded COVID deaths, this also has an explanation: multiple studies have shown that you are at least twice as likely to die in the year following a COVID infection, compared to people not infected. 

 

So it appears COVID is not only killing people directly during their acute infection, but also killing people by a delayed action effect, causing deaths many months after their COVID infection is over. It seems that once you get this virus in your body, you are more likely to die, at least in the following year or two. These delayed action deaths are pushing up the excess death figures. 

Edited by Hip, 25 January 2024 - 08:56 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

The issue here is that most people seem unaware of the link between the viruses and bacteria in common circulation and chronic disease. 

 

 

I think most people, including most people here - are aware the viruses and bacteria can cause chronic disease. This is of course mainstream science.

 

But the idea that they cause chronic disease to the extent to which you have suggested in other posts is not today mainstream science. Maybe it will be tomorrow, but it is not now.  Which is to say you believe things that are out of the mainstream.

 

I would say in jest - welcome to the club! 

[Hip]

I think most people, including most people here - are aware the viruses and bacteria can cause chronic disease. This is of course mainstream science.

 

But the idea that they cause chronic disease to the extent to which you have suggested in other posts is not today mainstream science. Maybe it will be tomorrow, but it is not now.  Which is to say you believe things that are out of the mainstream.

 

I would say in jest - welcome to the club! 

 

Sure, the majority of medical researchers do not subscribe to the view that most chronic diseases and cancers are likely due to underlying persistent microbial infections. 

 

At present, this idea is just a theory of hypothesis, which a small group of medical scientists hold. My hunch is that they will be proven correct, but I will be the first to admit that a present there is no evidence which definitively proves this pathogen theory of chronic disease and cancer. 

 

It is relatively easy to demonstrate an association between a pathogen and a disease: you just look at the diseased tissues, and if you often find the pathogen lurking there, you have proven an association. Almost all chronic diseases have been linked to one pathogen or another. But to go a step further and actually prove that the associated pathogen causes the disease is much more difficult. 

 

But slowly we are increasing the number of diseases that are proven to be caused by a pathogen. For example, it is now proven that human papillomavirus causes cervical cancer, this is universally accepted. And it is proven that EBV can cause throat cancer. And it is now proven that hepatitis C virus is a cause of vasculitis.

 

 

At least I don't claim the lack of traction that the pathogen theory of chronic disease has in the medical world is a result of some conspiracy to suppress the truth. I don't think there is a conspiracy to suppress this idea; it's just that to most medical scientists, it never occurs to them that viruses and bacteria might be the cause of most chronic diseases.

Edited by Hip, 25 January 2024 - 10:11 PM.

[DanCG]

 

 

So it appears COVID is not only killing people directly during their acute infection, but also killing people by a delayed action effect, causing deaths many months after their COVID infection is over. It seems that once you get this virus in your body, you are more likely to die, at least in the following year or two. These delayed action deaths are pushing up the excess death figures. 

So you would say that 26 people had a latent and previously asymptomatic form of Creutzfeldt-Jacob Disease due to a prior SARS-Cov-2 infection; a ticking time bomb so to speak. Then the bomb just happened to explode and cause symptoms in all 26 of them within  an average of 11 days after vaccination.

Edited by DanCG, 25 January 2024 - 09:52 PM.

[Hip]

So you would say that 26 people had a latent and previously asymptomatic form of Creutzfeldt-Jacob Disease due to a prior SARS-Cov-2 infection; a ticking time bomb so to speak. Then the bomb just happened to explode and cause symptoms within 11 days after vaccination in all 26 of them.

 

I have not looked at the study, so cannot comment.

 

In April 2022 I caught COVID, and ever since then, my level of mental fatigue and brain fog have greatly increased, so I am much less able to read scientific material. I now have to be selective about what I read, and I tend to focus my limited mental energy of reading papers about possible treatments for ME/CFS or long COVID.

 

 

My concern with the COVID vaccinations, and indeed any vaccination, is that they can trigger ME/CFS. Some studies I have seen estimate that 1 or 2% of ME/CFS cases may be caused by vaccination, and most of the rest by regular viral infection. 

 

There are 17 million ME/CFS patients worldwide, not including the LC ME/CFS patients. So that means about 170,000 people worldwide have vaccine-induced ME/CFS, which is a lot of people whose lives are totally destroyed by a vaccine. 

[DanCG]

I have not looked at the study, so cannot comment.

 

 

But you already did comment to disparage the paper because Luc Montagnier was one of the co-authors.

 

............hmm.....something about a book and a cover......

 

Maybe you should have waited until after you read the paper before dismissing it. That is something you often encourage others to do.

Edited by DanCG, 25 January 2024 - 10:06 PM.

[Hip]

But you already did comment to disparage the paper because Luc Montangier was one of the co-authors.

 

That was enough for me to believe that if I did spend 2 or 3 hours investigating the paper, it would probably turn out to be bunk. Put is this way: if I were a scientist and had discovered something important that I wished to bring to the attention of the scientific community, the last person I would have as an author would be Luc Montagnier, as that is a stamp of quackery. 

Edited by Hip, 25 January 2024 - 10:11 PM.

[pamojja]

Sure, the majority of medical researchers do not subscribe to the view that most chronic diseases and cancers are likely due to underlying persistent microbial infections.

 

First question then would be: Why could with the advent of for example antibiotics, but also vaccinations, some chronic diseases could actually increase?
 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC7077778/

 

In the 1950s, a profound transition occurred in the dominant type of health problems in this country—a transition from acute diseases to chronic diseases. The transition began when antibiotic use became widespread, infectious disease prevalence subsided, and the population aged. It is depicted in Figure 1 by the crossover of death rates from infectious (acute) and noninfectious (chronic) lung disease.

 

 ACR2-2-167-g001.jpg   60.62KB   0 downloads

 

..Soon after the transition, the prevalence of chronic diseases began a steady rise to become the dominant cause of illness in the United States. As the prevalence rose, so did the costs of health care. For example, in the decade of the 1980s, the prevalence of major chronic diseases (eg, diabetes, heart disease, and high blood pressure) rose between 40% and 150%, whereas health care expenditures tripled ² (Figure 2). In the last 20 years, the prevalence of chronic disease in the United States has grown by a steady 7 to 8 million people every 5 years. Today, chronic disease affects 50% of the population, and its care consumes more than 85% of health care costs ³. It has become an epidemic.

 

Mass extinction on the microbiome level could be one factor. So rather the extinction of multitudes in microbial 'infections'.

 

 

 

 

Edited by pamojja, 26 January 2024 - 09:55 AM.

[Daniel Cooper]

That was enough for me to believe that if I did spend 2 or 3 hours investigating the paper, it would probably turn out to be bunk. Put is this way: if I were a scientist and had discovered something important that I wished to bring to the attention of the scientific community, the last person I would have as an author would be Luc Montagnier, as that is a stamp of quackery.

 
I don't know Luc Montagnier from Adam's housecat, but I thought his Wikipedia Bio is interesting.

 

 

 

In 2017 he was criticised by other academics for using his Nobel prize status to "spread dangerous health messages outside of his field of knowledge";^[6] during the COVID-19 pandemic, Montagnier promoted^{[clarification needed]} the conspiracy theory that SARS-CoV-2, the causative virus, was deliberately created and escaped from a laboratory.^[7] Such a claim has been rejected by other virologists.^[8][9][10]

 

That part needs updating. The idea that SAR-CoV2 was created in a lab and escaped is no longer a conspiracy theory. It has quietly become the consensus opinion. A number of US "three letter agencies" have now publicly stated that this scenario is either plausible or is in fact the most likely explanation for what happened.

 

Now, what else he has said I have no idea. But that bit of is bio definitely needs an update.

 

This is a good example btw of how things that are considered to be fringe conspiracy theories (and therefore censored) can ultimately become the scientific consensus. Which is why such censorship can be so pernicious. 

[joesixpack]

 
I don't know Luc Montagnier from Adam's housecat, but I thought his Wikipedia Bio is interesting.

 

 

That part needs updating. The idea that SAR-CoV2 was created in a lab and escaped is no longer a conspiracy theory. It has quietly become the consensus opinion. A number of US "three letter agencies" have now publicly stated that this scenario is either plausible or is in fact the most likely explanation for what happened.

 

Now, what else he has said I have no idea. But that bit of is bio definitely needs an update.

 

This is a good example btw of how things that are considered to be fringe conspiracy theories (and therefore censored) can ultimately become the scientific consensus. Which is why such censorship can be so pernicious. 

 

Good point. His real claim to fame was discovering the human immunodeficiency virus, HIV. He shared the Nobel prize 2008 with 2 others after some controversy over who discovered it first.

 

In any event, I find it hard to believe we have all this drama over an article that he spent the last days of his life authoring, that documents 26 cases of Mad Cow, that were acquired within days of receiving the covid vaccine.

 

26 cases of this disease is extraordinary under any circumstance, and would warrant study. Having a potential connection to a vaccine should be of interest to all.

 

In any event, I presented the article here to see what others thought of it and perhaps engage in intelligent discussion.

 

I did not expect it to be food for the troll.

[Hip]

First question then would be: Why could with the advent of for example antibiotics, but also vaccinations, some chronic diseases could actually increase?

 

Antibiotics are often lifesavers, but one possible downside of antibiotics is that early heavy prolonged antibiotic use in young children has been linked to the later development of chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) and irritable bowel syndrome (IBS). 

 

See this paper: From IBS to ME – The dysbiotic march hypothesis. 

 

I may be an example of this, as I was given many courses of antibiotics as a young child, due to chronic tonsillitis. Eventually I had my tonsils removed, and this fixed the problem. But later in life I developed ME/CFS from a viral infection.

 

The theory is that under heavy prolonged antibiotic use, bacteria in the body create more biofilm to protect themselves from the antibiotics. Current antibiotics do not penetrate well into biofilm communities of bacteria, so the bacteria are well protected. 

 

So although antibiotics can save lives by quelling an acute infection, they may end up creating persistent biofilm infections, and these biofilms might play a role in diseases such as as IBS and ME/CFS. This is only a theory though.

 

At present, the race is on to try to find ways of eradicating biofilm infections, as these are clinically significant infections (common in diabetes), and potentially may also underpin a lot of chronic disease.

 

 

 

However, as for the explanation for the increase in other diseases over the last 50 years, such as autoimmune conditions, type 1 diabetes, autism, I suspect global urbanisation and the 1960s sexual revolution may play a role. 

 

If it is true that most chronic diseases, including mental health illnesses, are caused by viruses and bacteria that we catch, then the sexual revolution, which increased people's propensity to promiscuity and having amorous affairs with many partners, will have increased the number of pathogens passed from one person to another. This is because most viruses are spread by saliva, so French kissing is a very efficient way of transmitting a virus from one person to the next. 

 

Remember that although viruses spread easily by normal social contact during their acute infection, once the acute infection is over, and the virus becomes a chronic low-level infection in the body, it is not easily transmitted, because it is only present at very low levels in the saliva during the chronic phase. But if you have a saliva exchange due to French kissing, even at these low levels, the virus can transmit to another person. 

 

 

Most of the viruses linked to chronic diseases we have not yet developed vaccines for, so we are completely unprotected. The reason we have not developed these vaccines is because most medical researchers do not believe that viruses might be the cause of most chronic diseases, therefore they view pathogens such as Coxsackie B virus as fairly harmless, apart from the acute infections they cause.

 

But chronic Coxsackie B is linked to numerous nasty chronic diseases, including heart disease, heart valve disease, T1D, ME/CFS, and several others. We desperately need a vaccine for Coxsackie B, but one will not be forthcoming until evidence is presented that Coxsackie B causes all these nasty chronic disease. 

 

The vaccinations we have at present are ones targeted at pathogens that cause damaging acute infections, such as the measles vaccine. Measles can cause death, brain damage and deafness during the acute infection. But we don't have many vaccinations that target pathogens that are linked to chronic disease, because most medical scientists do not appreciate that pathogens may be responsible for most chronic disease and cancers.

 

 

 

And urbanisation brings people into far closer proximity compared to rural living. There has been massive amount of urbanisation right around the world, as we have changed from being primarily a rural farming communities to city dwellers. So humanity has many more opportunities to transmit pathogens from one person to the next.

Edited by Hip, 26 January 2024 - 05:25 PM.

[Hip]

 I don't know Luc Montagnier from Adam's housecat, but I thought his Wikipedia Bio is interesting.

 

I'd never heard of him either, until he came to fame not because of his great scientific work on HIV, but because in his old age he started dabbling in homeopathy, and started babbling homeopathic nonsense about messages encoded in pure water. See this Wikipedia article:  

 

 

 

DNA teleportation is a pseudoscientific claim which suggests that DNA can produce electromagnetic signals (EMS) that are measurable when highly diluted in water.

 

The claim suggests these signals can allegedly be recorded, transmitted electronically and re-emitted on another distant pure water sample, where the DNA can replicate through polymerase chain reaction, despite the absence of the original DNA in the new water sample.

 

The idea was introduced by the Nobel laureate Luc Montagnier in 2009. It is similar in principle to water memory, a similar pseudoscientific claim popularised by Jacques Benveniste in 1988.

Edited by Hip, 26 January 2024 - 05:26 PM.

[Mind]

This paper was posted earlier (and scorned) as a pre-print. It has now passed the peer review process. Autopsies indicate the COVID injections as causative in several cases of fatal myocarditis and multiple organ failure.

 

Australian study confirms that myocarditis induced by the COVID injections lasts a long time, at least 6 months.

 

Doctor apologizes for shaming/rejecting the people who studied the link between the COVID injections and heart problems....after getting pericarditis from the COVID injections.

 

I am embarrassed as well for "following the crowd" and not science/logic very early in the COVID panic.

 

The CDC...not so much. They continue to deny any serious side effects or deaths from the COVID injections, no matter how much data piles up. They continue to hide safety data from the public. It is unethical and criminal, yet nothing is being done about it. Current leadership in the US is pathetic and ineffectual.

 

 

[Hip]

Australian study confirms that myocarditis induced by the COVID injections lasts a long time, at least 6 months.

 

 

That study found that the type of technology vaccine used had no bearing, it was the spike protein itself that caused these myocarditis side effects.

 

Quoting the study:

The predominant COVID-19 vaccine platforms include messenger RNA (mRNA) (Pfizer–BioNTech—BNT162b2 and Moderna—mRNA-1273), viral vector (AstraZeneca—ChAdOx1 nCoV-19, Johnson & Johnson—Ad26.COV2.S, and Sputnik V), and protein subunit (Novavax—NVX-CoV2373 and Zifivax—ZF2001).

 

mRNA and viral vector vaccines involve the bodily synthesis of the SARS-CoV-2 Spike protein as the foundation of the immune response, while protein subunit vaccines utilize injection of exogenous Spike protein, bypassing the need for genetic mechanisms.3 Regardless of the vaccine platform used, circulating SARS-CoV-2 Spike protein is the likely detrimental agent through which COVID-19 vaccines cause biological harm.

 

 

Therefore, anyone desperate to blame the vaccine technology (mRNA technology or adenovirus vector) for the myocarditis side effect has not got a leg to stand on.

 

The myocarditis is caused by the spike protein itself. This means if you want to vaccinate against the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, any type of vaccine is liable to cause the same myocarditis side effects. 

 

Indeed your study details the possible mechanisms by which spike protein may trigger myocarditis:

Spike protein can initiate the breakdown and internalization of angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) receptors, which may disrupt the renin–angiotensin system (RAS) and lead to increased inflammation, vasoconstriction, and thrombosis.

 

Further, Spike protein can stimulate platelets and inflict damage to the endothelium, which can lead to arterial and venous thrombosis.

 

It would probably be impossible to create a COVID vaccine that targets spike protein that did not have a risk of myocarditis. The only way to avoid this myocarditis risk would be to target a different viral protein, such as the COVID nucleoprotein. Such vaccines however may not be as effective.  

 

 

 

So it is the spike protein, and not the COVID vaccine technology, which causes the myocarditis side effects.

 

This is why people who catch COVID also stand a risk of myocarditis, because natural infection with SARS-CoV-2 also generates lots of this toxic spike protein. 

 

Indeed, one systematic review and meta-analysis found that you are 7 times more likely to develop myocarditis from a SARS-CoV-2 infection than you are from a COVID vaccine. 

 

So in fact, there is a good argument that COVID vaccines, by protecting you against getting a more severe COVID infection, will on balance reduce the incidence of spike protein triggered myocarditis, not increase it.

 

The net effect of COVID vaccines is likely protective against myocarditis. It is irresponsible to omit this fact in any discussion about vaccine side effects. 

 

So the vaccine skeptics on Longecity continue to promulgate vaccine misinformation, by not providing a balanced argument. 

Edited by Hip, 30 January 2024 - 12:12 AM.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Hip writes in post #1765:

 

"The myocarditis is caused by the spike protein itself. This means if you want to vaccinate against the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, any type of vaccine is liable to cause the same myocarditis side effects."

 

You do understand that there are differences between vaccines that introduce spike proteins to act as an antigen and vaccines that actually direct cells to manufacture spike proteins (mRNA vaccines, e.g.)? Correct? And, in the manufacturing of spike proteins errors can, and do, occur, possibly with unintended effects.:

 

 

"Pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic data give cause for concern about the conceptual design of the mRNA and adenovectorDNA COVID-19 vaccines and lay the groundwork for understanding the pathophysiology that is now being widely reported. There is uncontrolled biodistribution as well as durability and persistent bioavailability of the spike protein."

 

and:

 

The gene-based COVID-19 vaccines fall into a special class of therapeutic agents defined by the FDA as “gene therapy products” [36], such that recipient cells produce antigens for transmembrane expression, or to leave the cell, to secondarily invoke an immune response. By design, therefore, by employing virus-like invasion and hijack of cellular transcription, both mRNA and adenovectorDNA gene-based vaccines cause non-immune cells to become de facto antigen-presenting cells, in their mode of immunogenicity. Therefore, these novel vaccine platforms risk tissue damage secondary to cytopathic autoimmune responses, raised against cells expressing foreign spike antigens.

 

 

Hip: "Therefore, anyone desperate to blame the vaccine technology (mRNA technology or adenovirus vector) for the myocarditis side effect has not got a leg to stand on."

 

 

Wrong, the technology (mRNA, viral vector, e.g.) can be blamed for its share of the problem. Also, the technology may produce as yet unknown side effects that could manifest over time.

 

 

 

"So the vaccine skeptics on Longecity continue to promulgate vaccine misinformation, by not providing a balanced argument."

 

So, certain vaccine advocates on Longecity continue to promulgate vaccine misinformation, by not providing a balanced argument. And, not doing the research that would have saved the time needed to post their absurd claims.

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 30 January 2024 - 06:06 AM.

[Hip]

Wrong, the technology (mRNA, viral vector, e.g.) can be blamed.

 

Now I see why you usually don't get involved in scientific discussion... you are not very good at it!

 

You have detailed a completely speculative mechanism by which you claim COVID vaccines might cause myocarditis, yet you provide zero evidence to support your claim, and you don't cite any scientists who would agree with you. 

 

If you look at what actual scientists postulate causes myocarditis in COVID vaccinations and COVID infections, it has nothing to do with the mechanism you detail:

Spike protein has been implicated in pericyte dysfunction, endothelial cell and myocyte injury, downregulation of ACE-2 expression, unopposed ACE and angiotensin-2– mediated effects, apoptosis, and proinflammation, all of which can play a role in the development of myocardial injury.

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm...es/PMC10010664/

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Re post 1767

 

Hip writes:

 

"You have detailed a completely speculative mechanism by which you claim COVID vaccines might cause myocarditis, yet you provide zero evidence to support your claim, and you don't cite any scientists who would agree with you. "

 

Connect the dots, Hip:

 

It is known that the mNRA vaccines for SARS-CoV-2 were developed to select, as an antigen, the spike protein. The vaccines cause cells to produce spike proteins (see my reference in post #1766). And, to quote you:

 

"The myocarditis is caused by the spike protein itself."

 

Your lack of the ability to ratiocinate, in light of a nexus that almost literally shouts in your face what conclusion should be drawn, is truly astounding.

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 30 January 2024 - 06:58 AM.

[Daniel Cooper]

This paper was posted earlier (and scorned) as a pre-print. It has now passed the peer review process. Autopsies indicate the COVID injections as causative in several cases of fatal myocarditis and multiple organ failure.

 

Australian study confirms that myocarditis induced by the COVID injections lasts a long time, at least 6 months.

 

Doctor apologizes for shaming/rejecting the people who studied the link between the COVID injections and heart problems....after getting pericarditis from the COVID injections.

 

I am embarrassed as well for "following the crowd" and not science/logic very early in the COVID panic.

 

The CDC...not so much. They continue to deny any serious side effects or deaths from the COVID injections, no matter how much data piles up. They continue to hide safety data from the public. It is unethical and criminal, yet nothing is being done about it. Current leadership in the US is pathetic and ineffectual.

 

That's pretty sobering information.  

 

Given the number of people that I know personally that got myocarditis after being vaccinated, I have little doubt that the incidences of this adverse reaction is under reported in the scientific literature and the media.

 

But given that we have evidence now that vaccine induced myocarditis is sufficient enough to cause death, the next question is "how often does this occur".

 

And of course there is another question - Given that the vaccines are inducing lethal myocarditis in some patients, are they also causing long lasting sub-acute damage that may affect patients at some later point? That certainly doesn't seem implausible.

[Hip]

It is known that the mNRA vaccines for SARS-CoV-2 were developed to select, as an antigen, the spike protein. The vaccines cause cells to produce spike proteins

 

And what is your point exactly? You seem to think, erroneously, that it is only mRNA vaccines which manufacture viral proteins like the spike protein in your body.

 

You are completely wrong about this. 

 

Traditional live attenuated viral vaccines create viral proteins in your body cells too: as the attenuated virus from the vaccine replicates inside your cells, it makes viral proteins. Such live attenuated viral vaccines go back right to early vaccine history, with Sabin's polio vaccine being live-attenuated. 

 

And viral proteins are also made in the other main type of traditional vaccine: the inactivated viral vaccine, except that these proteins are not made in your body, but in vitro, replicating inside cells in a cell line, and then later injected into your body. 

 

And of course actual viral infections themselves manufacture viral proteins inside the cells of your body.

Edited by Hip, 30 January 2024 - 05:23 PM.