447 replies to this topic

[Hip]

We were all jabbed, boosted, masked and distanced to the MAX when omicron circled the globe in less than 100 days. 

 

Major fail all around, yet some still believe the government interventions had substantial value.  

 

Can you provide evidence to support your assertion that the responses of hundreds of governments around the world to the appearance of omicron was a "major fail"?

 

If we look for example at Australian data on the efficacy of the vaccines against omicron, we see quite clearly that for every 10,000 unvaccinated males over 70 who caught omicron, 362 died of COVID.

 

But for every 10,000 fully vaccinated males over 70 who caught omicron, only 18 died.

 

That I would call a major success, not a major fail.

[Hip]

We were told we didn't need to fool around with hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, budesonide, anticoagulants, Vitamin-D or Zinc, as we had an effective treatment (remdesivir), that made all other potential therapeutics redundant until proven effective on hospitalized patients, that were already largely beyond help.   

 

I don't think anyone used the phrase "don't fool around" with these drugs or medications. What they did say was that there was insufficient evidence for their efficacy.

 

Nobody was stopping you from taking zinc or vitamin D. Nobody was stopping you from taking anticoagulants like aspirin. And any competent person is able to buy ivermectin online without needing a prescription, so this was not restricted either. So authorities did not stop you from taking these medications if you wanted to take them. What the authorities did say was that the evidence base for these medications was poor, which is a correct statement.

 

In the case of vitamin D, for example, some studies showed a modest benefit for COVID, whereas other studies showed no benefit. And most of the studies were observational, and unable to demonstrate a causal effect. So very poor evidence.

 

So there were no lies told by the authorities. If there is insufficient evidence, authorities need to be truthful, and explain that fact to people. Which they did.

 

 

Edited by Hip, 06 July 2023 - 01:15 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

The vaccines were supposed to end the pandemic...  COVID no more!  They knew they didn't stop transmission before the initial safety trials were even done, but that didn't stop them from explaining why coercion & mandates were required.  The vaccines were supposed to be the ONLY way to end the pandemic.  They weren't, & the alphabet agencies knew this.  

 

Deceit: "the action or practice of deceiving someone by concealing or misrepresenting the truth"

[Hip]

The vaccines were supposed to end the pandemic...  COVID no more!  

 

Can you provide me with a weblink to any medical authority statement which claimed that the vaccines would end the pandemic. I never heard any medical authority make such a statement.

I am still waiting for Mind's response. He claims the authorities lied about pandemic issues. I want to see evidence to back up this statement made by Mind.

Edited by Hip, 06 July 2023 - 01:17 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

I don't think anyone used the phrase "don't fool around" with these drugs or medications. What they did say was that there was insufficient evidence for their efficacy.

 

Nobody was stopping you from taking zinc or vitamin D. Nobody was stopping you from taking anticoagulants like aspirin. And any competent person is able to buy ivermectin online without needing a prescription, so this was not restricted either. So authorities did not stop you from taking these medications if you wanted to take them. What the authorities did say was that the evidence base for these medications was poor, which is a correct statement.

 

In the case of vitamin D, for example, some studies showed a modest benefit for COVID, whereas other studies showed no benefit. And most of the studies were observational, and unable to demonstrate a causal effect. So very poor evidence.

 

So there were no lies told by the authorities. If there is insufficient evidence, authorities need to be truthful, and explain that fact to people. Which they did.

 

The Fauci himself was asked about Vitamin-D.  He said: "I know of something cheaper...  Just wear a mask".  

 

Anything besides masking, vaccines & remdesivir was roundly poo-pooed.  To believe otherwise is straying into fantasy land.  

[Dorian Grey]

Can you provide me with a weblink to any medical authority statement which claimed that the vaccines would end the pandemic. I never heard any medical authority make such a statement.

I am still waiting for Mind's response. He claims the authorities lied about pandemic issues. I want to see evidence to back up this statement made by Mind.

 

Not doing your homework for you.  Ending the pandemic was the entire justification for the coercion & mandates.  Your memory is getting selective.  

[Hip]

Anything besides masking, vaccines & remdesivir was roundly poo-pooed.  To believe otherwise is straying into fantasy land.  

 

If by poo-pooed" you mean that treatments with a poor evidence base or with zero evidence were discounted because of the the lack of evidence, then yes, that is true. The authorities supported evidence-based treatments, and discounted treatments which had little evidence of efficacy. That's the job of authorities, to tell you what reliably works, and what is unreliable. 

 

The authorities were being truthful. No lies were told.

 

The lies were told by the peddlers of unproven treatments. These people lied because they presented their alternative treatments as effective, when there was no reliable evidence that was the case. 

Edited by Hip, 06 July 2023 - 01:29 AM.

[Hip]

Not doing your homework for you.  Ending the pandemic was the entire justification for the coercion & mandates.  Your memory is getting selective.  

 

I think it is your memory which is failing here. Right from the beginning, the authorities were saying that we may never get rid of SARS-CoV-2, and that we would have to learn to live with this virus. This was said at the very beginning of the pandemic, 18 months before any vaccines became available. 

 

You don't remember this?

[joesixpack]

Can you provide me with a weblink to any medical authority statement which claimed that the vaccines would end the pandemic. I never heard any medical authority make such a statement.

I am still waiting for Mind's response. He claims the authorities lied about pandemic issues. I want to see evidence to back up this statement made by Mind.

 

Here: https://news.harvard...ts-say-experts/

 

That took 5 seconds to find.

 

Here is another: https://www.piedmont...nd-the-pandemic

[Hip]

Here: https://news.harvard...ts-say-experts/

 

That took 5 seconds to find.

 

Here is another: https://www.piedmont...nd-the-pandemic

 

Those links you provided are the opinions of individual medical professionals, they are not the considered official statements of medical authorities, such as the CDC, FDA, or Public Health England in the UK.

 

I am referring to the official statements that the health authorities made. 

 

Individual medics can have a wide range of different opinions, which may or may not be correct.

 

 

 

Mind has claimed that what the CDC and the FDA said about COVID was a pack of lies.

 

I am asking Mind to back up his statement, and provide us with weblinks to statements by the CDC and FDA that are proven untruthful. I am still waiting for these weblinks.

[Dorian Grey]

Perhaps rather than re-hashing the entire pandemic, we should start burying it?  It's all but been over since Jan '22, no?  

 

The masks didn't work...  No one is wearing them anymore.

 

The vaccines were rubbish...  They are expiring in storage and being disposed of as a biohazard.  

 

Remdesivir was a flop...  Even Fauci himself, as well as the president, CDC director, and about everyone who had a choice opted for EUA / Paxlovid, rather than fully approved remdesivir.  

 

Put a fork in them.  They are done.  

[Hip]

Perhaps rather than re-hashing the entire pandemic, we should start burying it?  It's all but been over since Jan '22, no?

 
The pandemic is not really over. In the UK, we still have on average a 100 people dying each day from COVID. In the US I expect the figure must be about 500 deaths per day, since the US population is about 5 times larger than the UK's. 
 
So it's really a case of learning to live with the virus, rather than the pandemic going away.
 
During the worse part of the pandemic, before the vaccines became available, it was around 1000 deaths per day in the UK. But the vaccines have substantially lowered that figure. And the vaccines will continue to keep the deaths lower provided the elderly get their boosters every 6 months. 

 

So the vaccines were game changers that made living with the ongoing presence of COVID much more bearable. 

 
 

 

The vaccines were rubbish.

 

That's absolutely not true. Given the context, the COVID vaccine were rather effective.

 

What most people on this forum seem oblivious to is the fact that coronavirus is an extremely tricky virus to create a vaccine for. 

 

I don't expect anyone here to be able to understand the science behind why that is the case. But it is a fact that it is very hard to create effective vaccines for coronavirus. 

 

Thus given the difficultly of the task of creating a coronavirus vaccine, the vaccines that were developed did very well. 

[Dorian Grey]

I'll grant the vaccines may have had some value, back in the pre-omicron days, but those days are long gone.  

 

Yep, people still dying from COVID...  And cancer, heart disease, stroke, viral pneumonia, & car crashes.  Very sad, but what ya gonna do?  I've read most of the current COVID deaths are occurring in the vaccinated.  

 

Saw a stat that said over 85% of the population has had or been exposed to COVID, so natural immunity has taken hold.  If you still haven't had COVID, by all means keep taking those boosters, but for the rest of the world, carry on.  

 

The pandemic has burnt itself out, just like Trump said it eventually would.  

[gamesguru]

I've read most of the current COVID deaths are occurring in the vaccinated. 

 

I think a bold claim like that requires evidence. The research I've seen tends to suggest the opposite.

 

Even if 97% of us have either vaccine or infection acquired immunity at this stage, it doesn't mean the vaccine has no future utility. If an old or immunocompromised patient hasn't had a COVID infection in 3-4 years, it's not clear how much adaptive immunity they would still have. A vaccine booster might afford them some protection.

[Dorian Grey]

I think a bold claim like that requires evidence. The research I've seen tends to suggest the opposite.

 

Even if 97% of us have either vaccine or infection acquired immunity at this stage, it doesn't mean the vaccine has no future utility. If an old or immunocompromised patient hasn't had a COVID infection in 3-4 years, it's not clear how much adaptive immunity they would still have. A vaccine booster might afford them some protection.

 

https://www.webmd.co...t-booster-shots

 

COVID No Longer 'Pandemic of the Unvaccinated'

 

Nov. 27, 2022 – For the first time, the majority of people dying from COVID-19 in America have been vaccinated.

“We can no longer say this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated,” Kaiser Family Foundation Vice President Cynthia Cox, who conducted the analysis, told The Washington Post.

People who had been vaccinated or boosted made up 58% of COVID-19 deaths in August, the analysis showed. The rate has been on the rise: 23% of coronavirus deaths were among vaccinated people in September 2021, and the vaccinated made up 42% of deaths in January and February of this year, the Post reported.

[gamesguru]

Yes, that's true. But the author even points out some factors behind this (quoted below).

 

81% of the US population has been jabbed at least once, but very few are current (no booster in past year). I think it's somewhat unfair to include people who received 1 jab over 2 years ago in the analysis.

 

To me this just points to the idea that the vaccine offers only temporary protection.

 

 

The rise in deaths among the vaccinated is the result of three factors, Cox said. They are:

• A large majority of people in the U.S. have been vaccinated (267 million people in the U.S., the CDC says).
• People who are at the greatest risk of dying from COVID-19 are more likely to be vaccinated and boosted, such as the elderly.
• Vaccines lose their effectiveness over time; the virus changes to avoid vaccines; and people need to choose to get boosters to continue to be protected.

[Dorian Grey]

I was declared "fully vaccinated" April 6, 2021 when I got my one-and-done J&J jab.  Was this another deceitful deception from the government alphabet agencies?  

[gamesguru]

I was declared "fully vaccinated" April 6, 2021 when I got my one-and-done J&J jab.  Was this another deceitful deception from the government alphabet agencies?  

 

The Janssen vaccine was probably the least safe of the three major initial options. It's important to stay up to date of evolving information in any complex situation.

 

From its Wikipedia page directly,

 

Because cases of thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome and Guillain-Barré syndrome have been reported after receipt of the Janssen COVID‑19 vaccine, the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) recommends "preferential use of mRNA COVID‑19 vaccines over the Janssen COVID‑19 vaccine, including both primary and booster doses administered to prevent COVID‑19, for all persons aged 18 years of age and older. The Janssen COVID‑19 vaccine may be considered in some situations, including for persons with a contraindication to receipt of mRNA COVID‑19 vaccines."^[42]

 

In December 2021, the CDC accepted the recommendation from a panel of experts for a preference of using the Pfizer-BioNech and Moderna vaccines over the Janssen vaccine due to rare but serious blood clotting events.^[94] In May 2022, the FDA limited the use of the Janssen vaccine to those over eighteen unable to access other vaccines or who are otherwise "medically ineligible" for other vaccine options.^[95][96]

 

The posts here seem to be unduly accusatory toward authority, and assume they are colluding together with deceitful or manipulative intentions.

 

I seriously doubt the scientists who initially vouched for the safety of the J&J vaccine had any deceitful or malicious intent, or that they had any duties or powers within the WHO or CDC beyond those they are formally and publicly delegated.

 

It's unfortunate that science doesn't immediately get everything 100% right, but experimenting and updating theories is an inevitable part of any learning process. And just as the scientists and people in authority are learning... it's also the responsibility of an informed consumer to stay up to date and informed, changing his or her beliefs as new and stronger evidence becomes available. That's the duty of an intellectually honest and informed public.

[Hip]

I'll grant the vaccines may have had some value, back in the pre-omicron days, but those days are long gone.  

 

What are you smoking?! Back in the real world, we see that the vaccines are still playing a vitally important role.

 

The COVID vaccines continue to provide massive reductions in death from COVID, including omicron, as the Australian vaccine data I posted above amply demonstrates: for omicron, the vaccines reduce your chances of death from COVID by an astounding 20 times! (based on 362 / 18 =  20.1).

 

 

Edited by Hip, 06 July 2023 - 01:35 PM.

[gamesguru]

What are your smoking?! Back in the real world, we see that the vaccines are still playing a vitally important role.

 

The COVID vaccines continue to provide massive reductions in death from COVID, including omicron, as the Australian vaccine data I posted above amply demonstrates.

 

I think it's a step in the right direction for them. Some acknowledgement of vaccine safety & effectiveness is better than none.

[Dorian Grey]

What are you smoking?! Back in the real world, we see that the vaccines are still playing a vitally important role.

 

The COVID vaccines continue to provide massive reductions in death from COVID, including omicron, as the Australian vaccine data I posted above amply demonstrates: for omicron, the vaccines reduce your chances of death from COVID by an astounding 20 times! (based on 362 / 18 =  20.1).

 

The Australia data states it is from January 2022, with the circulating strains at omicron 90% & delta 10%. It does not state the ratio of omicron to delta in the deaths. 

 

This was the cusp of the delta/omicron shift.  Did many of those who died in January actually contract delta in December and deteriorate over several weeks time into ICU & death in January?  

 

Could this be yet another deceitful deception from the vaccine bullies?  

 

We're over a year & a half past this point now, and natural immunity has taken over from any protection the vaccines offered.   What are the current stats?  

[Dorian Grey]

The Janssen vaccine was probably the least safe of the three major initial options. It's important to stay up to date of evolving information in any complex situation.

 

From its Wikipedia page directly,

 

 

The posts here seem to be unduly accusatory toward authority, and assume they are colluding together with deceitful or manipulative intentions.

 

I seriously doubt the scientists who initially vouched for the safety of the J&J vaccine had any deceitful or malicious intent, or that they had any duties or powers within the WHO or CDC beyond those they are formally and publicly delegated.

 

It's unfortunate that science doesn't immediately get everything 100% right, but experimenting and updating theories is an inevitable part of any learning process. And just as the scientists and people in authority are learning... it's also the responsibility of an informed consumer to stay up to date and informed, changing his or her beliefs as new and stronger evidence becomes available. That's the duty of an intellectually honest and informed public.

 

J&J was notorious for a relatively small number of thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome, which is a very dramatic and obvious danger, but for those who did not fall ill with this after J&J, the long term adverse events appear to be substantially more benign than the mRNA jabs and their lipid nanos.  

 

https://www.longecit...ts-data-desert/

 

I'm glad I chose the J&J and remain an mRNA virgin.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 06 July 2023 - 02:54 PM.

[Hip]

We're over a year & a half past this point now, and natural immunity has taken over from any protection the vaccines offered.

 

As anyone who has read about the nature of coronaviruses will know, neither vaccine immunity nor natural immunity works long term for coronaviruses.

 

This has been discussed multiple times on this forum, so we should not be going around in circles discussing the same thing over and over again.

 

I would suggest if you are not aware of this, do some Googling, and learn why it is not possible to to have any form of lasting immunity when it comes to coronavirus.

 

This lack of long term immunity is why SARS-CoV-2 will never go away, and is the reason why much of the population has been infected more than once with COVID. If there was long-term natural immunity, it would be impossible to be infected more than once.

 

If you look at the Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918, this burnt out because eventually the population developed long-lasting natural immunity, and the virus then could not find anyone to infect. But with coronavirus, there is no long-lasting natural immunity, so the virus may be with us forever.

Edited by Hip, 06 July 2023 - 03:05 PM.

[gamesguru]

J&J, the long term adverse events appear to be substantially more benign than the mRNA jabs and their lipid nanos. 

 

Yes but what are the reported long-term effects of the mRNA vaccine? Are they related to myocarditis? What is their incidence & severity relative to the J&J vaccine?

[Dorian Grey]

As anyone who has read about the nature of coronaviruses will know, neither vaccine immunity nor natural immunity works long term for these viruses.

 

This has been discussed multiple times on this forum, so we should not be going around in circles discussing the same thing over and over again.

 

I would suggest if you are not aware of this, do some Googling, and learn why it is not possible to to have any form of lasting immunity when it comes to coronavirus.

 

I got my last vaccine (J&J boost) in November of 2021.  Contracted omicron in January 2022, (which was a walk in the park thanks to my Zelenko protocol).  

 

I've taken no precautions since that time over a year & a half ago, have mixed & mingled out & about and crossed the country by plane.  

 

As omicron is still circulating, I can safely assume I must have been exposed several times over the past 18 months.  

 

Both vaccine and natural immunity fade over time, but recurring micro-exposures may be why ongoing COVID cases have fallen off a cliff.  

 

Most folks aren't getting their latest bivalent boosters, & no one is wearing masks any more.  It appears no one is getting sick any more either.  

 

What could it be that is protecting everyone now days?  

[gamesguru]

recurring micro-exposures may be why ongoing COVID cases have fallen off a cliff.  

 

Most folks aren't getting their latest bivalent boosters, & no one is wearing masks any more.  It appears no one is getting sick any more either.  

 

What could it be that is protecting everyone now days?  

 

True, natural immunity likely now plays a role. The vaccine had more value early in the pandemic. It can still help highly compromised people who are unsure of their natural immunity status (recency of infection, etc).

 

But I think it may be a stretch to say "no one is getting sick any more."  There are definitely still cases, deaths. The numbers may not be as staggering as the early pandemic days but it's not clear if we will experience additional waves, or how significant they will be.

 

The vaccine might see a spike in use in future seasons, but for now many places have de-prioritized it.

[Dorian Grey]

Yes but what are the reported long-term effects of the mRNA vaccine? Are they related to myocarditis? What is their incidence & severity relative to the J&J vaccine?

 

A lot of people who are quite young seem to be dropping down dead.  All quite mysterious...  Is it the virus?  The vaccines?  A combination of the two?  

 

Do we want to keep getting boosters when case rates are nearly nil?  'Tis a Puzzlement, but I'm opting to avoid getting more jabs for now.  

[gamesguru]

A lot of people who are quite young seem to be dropping down dead.  All quite mysterious...  Is it the virus?  The vaccines?  A combination of the two?  

 

Do we want to keep getting boosters when case rates are nearly nil?  'Tis a Puzzlement, but I'm opting to avoid getting more jabs for now.  

 

Choosing to get the vaccination (or not) is a personal choice, one which ultimately affects the community as well as the individual. I can certainly understand hesitancy, but I think this is a complicated decision with many factors to weigh, often against targets which keep moving.

 

There is definitely a puzzling pattern of myocarditis among teenage males, and I think the risk-reward analysis needs to be performed separately for each age bracket and evaluated in the context of evolving information.

 

It does appear that vaccination for teenage boys is ill-advised. But we can't say this about the elderly or immunocompromised adults.

 

Males ages 16-19 faced the highest risk, with young men ages 20-24 having the second-highest risk. The risk of developing myocarditis among males ages 16-19 after a third dose was about 1 in 15,000.

 

The risk of 12-15 year old healthy boys experiencing cardiac adverse events such as myocarditis after their second dose of the Pfizer and BioNTech vaccine is around four times adolescents' risk of being admitted to hospital as a result of infection with SARS-CoV-2, a preprint study has found.

 

The immune effect on young people after being vaccinated with COVID-19 vaccines was better than that of the elderly, but the safety was worse than that of old people; the most common AEs were fever, rash and local muscle pain, which were tolerable for young people. As the AEs of the elderly were lower, they can also be vaccinated safely, the reason for the low level of GMT in the elderly was related to Immunosenescence. The vaccine tolerance of people of different ages needs to be studied continuously.

[Dorian Grey]

Wandering way off topic (Ivermectin) here, but I see the bottom line as...  Vaccines have some value along with some risk for all who take them. 

 

The value seems to be diminishing over time, as natural immunity augments the original vaccine, and repeated micro-exposures of current variants appear to be generating a fairly effective herd immunity.  

 

The vaccine risk is greater for young men, but not absolute zero for anyone.  I feel we've reached a tipping point, where benefit from additional boosters is likely next to nil for all but the very elderly and those seriously ill with chronic disease.  

 

I understand there will always be those with differing opinions.  

[gamesguru]

The vaccine risk is greater for young men, but not absolute zero for anyone.

 

For adolescent males, certain COVID-19 vaccines carry more risks than benefits. But for all other age brackets, the benefits outweigh the risks.

 

I agree herd immunity has become a bigger thing, but many people (60-80%) ramped their immunity up with a vaccine.

 

I also would say it's silly to keep these vaccine requirements in place for employers, cruise ships, etc. The science shows the immunity only lasts a year max. Most people were vaccinated 2+ years ago, and many have had their immunity boosted by natural infection since then as well. The original requirements were predicated on the assumption immunity would last decades or more—assumptions which science has since disproven in regard to the novel coronavirus.

 

The CDC conducted a nationwide study of antibodies in Americans older than 16.

They report an estimated 96.7% of Americans have some type of antibodies against COVID-19. That’s either from getting vaccinated or having the virus.

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